Jump to content

WhatTheBuck

Legacy Members
  • Posts

    26841
  • Joined

  • Days Won

    2

Everything posted by WhatTheBuck

  1. This never gets old. Leave No Stone Unturned: An Easter Challenge For Christians by Dan Barker (August 2000) By Dan Barker An Easter Challenge For Christians I HAVE AN EASTER challenge for Christians. My challenge is simply this: tell me what happened on Easter. I am not asking for proof. My straightforward request is merely that Christians tell me exactly what happened on the day that their most important doctrine was born. Believers should eagerly take up this challenge, since without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not." (I Corinthians 15:14-15) The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. These 165 verses can be read in a few moments. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened first, second, and so on; who said what, when; and where these things happened. Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture--it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses. The important condition to the challenge, however, is that not one single biblical detail be omitted. Fair enough? I have tried this challenge myself. I failed. An Assembly of God minister whom I was debating a couple of years ago on a Florida radio show loudly proclaimed over the air that he would send me the narrative in a few days. I am still waiting. After my debate at the University of Wisconsin, "Jesus of Nazareth: Messiah or Myth," a Lutheran graduate student told me he accepted the challenge and would be contacting me in about a week. I have never heard from him. Both of these people, and others, agreed that the request was reasonable and crucial. Maybe they are slow readers. Many bible stories are given only once or twice, and are therefore hard to confirm. The author of Matthew, for example, was the only one to mention that at the crucifixion dead people emerged from the graves of Jerusalem, walking around showing themselves to everyone--an amazing event that could hardly escape the notice of the other Gospel writers, or any other historians of the period. But though the silence of others might weaken the likelihood of a story, it does not disprove it. Disconfirmation comes with contradictions. Thomas Paine tackled this matter two hundred years ago in The Age of Reason, stumbling across dozens of New Testament discrepancies: "I lay it down as a position which cannot be controverted," he wrote, "first, that the agreement of all the parts of a story does not prove that story to be true, because the parts may agree and the whole may be false; secondly, that the disagreement of the parts of a story proves the whole cannot be true." Since Easter is told by five different writers, it gives one of the best chances to confirm or disconfirm the account. Christians should welcome the opportunity. One of the first problems I found is in Matthew 28:2, after two women arrived at the tomb: "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it." (Let's ignore the fact that no other writer mentioned this "great earthquake.") This story says that the stone was rolled away after the women arrived, in their presence. Yet Mark's Gospel says it happened before the women arrived: "And they said among themselves, Who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great." Luke writes: "And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre." John agrees. No earthquake, no rolling stone. It is a three-to-one vote: Matthew loses. (Or else the other three are wrong.) The event cannot have happened both before and after they arrived. Some bible defenders assert that Matthew 28:2 was intended to be understood in the past perfect, showing what had happened before the women arrived. But the entire passage is in the aorist (past) tense, and it reads, in context, like a simple chronological account. Matthew 28:2 begins, "And, behold," not "For, behold." If this verse can be so easily shuffled around, then what is to keep us from putting the flood before the ark, or the crucifixion before the nativity? Another glaring problem is the fact that in Matthew the first post-resurrection appearance of Jesus to the disciples happened on a mountain in Galilee (not in Jerusalem, as most Christians believe), as predicted by the angel sitting on the newly moved rock: "And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him." This must have been of supreme importance, since this was the message of God via the angel(s) at the tomb. Jesus had even predicted this himself sixty hours earlier, during the Last Supper (Matthew 26:32). After receiving this angelic message, "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." (Matthew 28:16-17) Reading this at face value, and in context, it is clear that Matthew intends this to have been the first appearance. Otherwise, if Jesus had been seen before this time, why did some doubt? Mark agrees with Matthew's account of the angel's Galilee message, but gives a different story about the first appearance. Luke and John give different angel messages and then radically contradict Matthew. Luke shows the first appearance on the road to Emmaus and then in a room in Jerusalem. John says it happened later than evening in a room, minus Thomas. These angel messages, locations, and travels during the day are impossible to reconcile. Believers sometimes use the analogy of the five blind men examining an elephant, all coming away with a different definition: tree trunk (leg), rope (tail), hose (trunk), wall (side), and fabric (ear). People who use this argument forget that each of the blind men was wrong: an elephant is not a rope or a tree. You can put the five parts together to arrive at a noncontradictory aggregate of the entire animal. This hasn't been done with the resurrection. Another analogy sometimes used by apologists is comparing the resurrection contradictions to differing accounts given by witnesses of an auto accident. If one witness said the vehicle was green and the other said it was blue, that could be accounted for by different angles, lighting, perception, or definitions of words. The important thing, they claim, is that they do agree on the basic story--there was an accident, there was a resurrection. I am not a fundamentalist inerrantist. I'm not demanding that the evangelists must have been expert, infallible witnesses. (None of them claims to have been at the tomb itself, anyway.) But what if one person said the auto accident happened in Chicago and the other said it happened in Milwaukee? At least one of these witnesses has serious problems with the truth. Luke says the post-resurrection appearance happened in Jerusalem, but Matthew says it happened in Galilee, sixty to one hundred miles away! Could they all have traveled 150 miles that day, by foot, trudging up to Galilee for the first appearance, then back to Jerusalem for the evening meal? There is no mention of any horses, but twelve well-conditioned thoroughbreds racing at breakneck speed, as the crow flies, would need about five hours for the trip, without a rest. And during this madcap scenario, could Jesus have found time for a leisurely stroll to Emmaus, accepting, "toward evening," an invitation to dinner? Something is very wrong here. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Of course, none of these contradictions prove that the resurrection did not happen, but they do throw considerable doubt on the reliability of the supposed witnesses. Some of them were wrong. Maybe they were all wrong. This challenge could be harder. I could ask why reports of supernatural beings, vanishing and materializing out of thin air, long-dead corpses coming back to life, and people levitating should be given serious consideration at all. Thomas Paine was one of the first to point out that outrageous claims require outrageous proof. Protestants and Catholics seem to have no trouble applying healthy skepticism to the miracles of Islam, or to the "historical" visit between Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni. Why should Christians treat their own outrageous claims any differently? Why should someone who was not there be any more eager to believe than doubting Thomas, who lived during that time, or the other disciples who said that the women's news from the tomb "seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not" (Luke 24:11)? Paine also points out that everything in the bible is hearsay. For example, the message at the tomb (if it happened at all) took this path, at minimum, before it got to our eyes: God, angel(s), Mary, disciples, Gospel writers, copyists, translators. (The Gospels are all anonymous and we have no original versions.) But first things first: Christians, either tell me exactly what happened on Easter Sunday, or let's leave the Jesus myth buried next to Eastre (Ishtar, Astarte), the pagan Goddess of Spring after whom your holiday was named. Here are some of the discrepancies among the resurrection accounts: What time did the women visit the tomb? Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1) Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV) Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV) John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1) Who were the women? Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1) Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1) Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10) John: Mary Magdalene (20:1) What was their purpose? Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1) Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1) Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1) John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40) Was the tomb open when they arrived? Matthew: No (28:2) Mark: Yes (16:4) Luke: Yes (24:2) John: Yes (20:1) Who was at the tomb when they arrived? Matthew: One angel (28:2-7) Mark: One young man (16:5) Luke: Two men (24:4) John: Two angels (20:12) Where were these messengers situated? Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2) Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5) Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4) John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12) What did the messenger(s) say? Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7) Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7) Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7) John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13) Did the women tell what happened? Matthew: Yes (28:8) Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8) Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24) John: Yes (20:18) When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected? Matthew: Yes (28:7-8) Mark: Yes (16:10,11) Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23) John: No (20:2) When did Mary first see Jesus? Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9) Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10) John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14) Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection? Matthew: Yes (28:9) John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27) After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear? Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16) Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14) Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36) John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24) Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5) Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples? Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17) Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14) Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36) John: In a room, at evening (20:19) Did the disciples believe the two men? Mark: No (16:13) Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two) What happened at the appearance? Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20) Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19) Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51) John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23) Did Jesus stay on earth for a while? Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22) Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3) Where did the ascension take place? Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19) Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51) John: No ascension Paul: No ascension Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12) https://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/18418-leave-no-stone-unturned
  2. You’ve never dropped acid, have you?
  3. He selected part of HUABS’s quote in your post and chose “Quote selection” which attributed it to you. Like I just did with my post above.
  4. That total would’ve been $73.26. No one would notice.
  5. And it’s the GOP who started it. Fucking Citizens United was an abomination.
  6. Back when we had regulations on that sort of thing?
  7. ISOTLC has sitar. It passes the acid test with flying colors.
  8. In what world is Dark Side not a concept album? I’ve never heard that questioned. The Wall is more explicitly so but Dark Side is an icon of a concept album. One of the most important albums of all time Some others: Frank Zappa - Joe’s Garage; Moody Blues - In Search of the Lost Chord; Spirit - 12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus (awesome album despite the concept being poorly defined). Give me Quadrophenia over Tommy all day every day. I’m not disputing Tommy as a concept album but it just doesn’t do it for me like Quadrophenia. That’s a masterpiece. I don’t know if it counts but my parents had a copy of Peter & The Wolf when I was a kid and that was part of my musical foundation. They didn’t have much in the way of good music but that was a good one. They also had the soundtrack to West Side Story. That’s just a play. But so is Peter & The Wolf, right? And so are Quadrophenia and Joe’s Garage and The Wall, right? Labels are useful when talking about music but they can get fuzzy on the edges. I think we can safely say the West Side Story soundtrack is not a concept album. But how about this? I used to have this on vinyl. A college roommate bought it on CD. It’s pretty good. I haven’t read the whole thread. I see the Styx mention but I’m not sure which album you’re talking about. I assume Kilroy Was Here? That counts but I don’t think it was executed very well. I think Paradise Theater was the better effort. I haven’t listened to it in a long time but I still own that one. And I saw them live on the Kilroy tour. That was one of my first three concerts. I think it was my third after Rush and REO Speedwagon. It was a good show.
  9. You should change that story and say that he won the tickets.
  10. I know. And I know you know. I’m just saying. And pounding my head on the wall. I just wish it all would stop.
  11. Bringing it on? A small part to be sure. You do know that we played a role in the Afghan insurgency, right? Funded the Taliban? Gave them weapons? Wiped our hands and walked away and let the nutjobs take over? A straight line can be drawn from mismanagement by the elder Bush to that of his idiot son and 9/11. The collapse of the Soviet Union was always going to happen. Every U.S. president since the fall of the Axis in WWII had a hand in it. Anyone who doesn’t give a big fat heaping helping of credit to Gorbachev is probably living on domestic propaganda alone. Recommended reading:
  12. Just closing out a tab. Here’s another good episode of Weir Here.
  13. Tripping and falling face-first into the toilet while choking on a KFC chicken bone would be perfect. Bonus points if there were boxes of unretrieved stolen classified documents nearby.
  14. Yep. As predictable as Putin blaming an Islamic terrorist attack on Ukraine.
  15. <spit-take.gif> The Taliban would like a word with you. So would the Shia and Kurdish uprising in Iraq whose members were mowed down by Saddam’s helicopters, unrestricted by Bush’s “no fly” policy. And look where Russia is now. I don’t think Bush’s policies of generally washing his hands and walking away like the jobs were finished are commendable at all.
  16. lolwut? “Take the L?” Overreact much?
  17. It will suck. Save your money. You're welcome.
  18. “Donald Trump has a billion dollars the same way that Patrick Stewart has a spaceship.” - Stephen Colbert
×
×
  • Create New...