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The Guitar Pron Thread


Celery Man

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25 minutes ago, AnotherUTFan said:

Nice spot Gore.

My space is currently in the middle of a fairly significant remodel, which is how I threw out my back. Work is currently limited to how I'm feeling day to day, but progressing nicely. d1054c39ea9fa2a228858875e68bf1fe.jpg

Sorry to hear about your back.  Hope you are up and getting it back to its previous glory.  There should still at least be a stained mattress in the corner and a couple empty bottles of Jack Daniels providing appropriate decor :D 

11 minutes ago, tbone_ said:

Goredho that’s cool as shit

Thanks, it has been a long time coming.  

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21 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

[mention]Goredho [/mention] That is a beautiful space. What kind of effects processor do you have off to the right of your computer?

Thanks.  It’s a Line6 Helix LT.  It’s bad ass enough that I’ve pretty much gone full digitard.  At least for recording, I might run it through the Vox and just use it just for FX if I was gigging.

Edited by Goredho
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4 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

Where do you live?  Chile?

Snow in late May . . . that sucks.

Nice space, though.  It's way too tidy.

Thanks.  Colorado up in the mountains.  And yeah, the long winters and snow can suck. You need a good indoor passion (like music making), a winter sport (like skiing/snowboarding) and a tropical vacation each February or you would go full Jack Nicholson up here.

Edited by Goredho
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On 5/23/2020 at 3:05 PM, tbone_ said:

From last night
 

 


They asked us to do every Friday for a while.

 

Fantastic @tbone_  What is your PA setup?  Sounds fantastic for something outdoors.  Also,  the iPad stand.  Are you using that for lyrics?  Our singer is incredible, but lazy as fuck about remembering lyrics.   We haven't spent any time trying to get him set up with some kind of scrolling setup....looking for options.  

 

 

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Thanks man. The pa setup is pretty simple. My guitar and mic go through a TC Helicon Play Acoustic processor. Her mic goes through a TC Helicon doubler processor (mainly just used for slight pitch corrcetion, de esssing Reverb and compression, the doubling is turned waaay down). Then into a little cheap ($199) Yamaha mixer and into 1 cheap ass Alto ($299) powered speaker. That’s it. Oh and The guitar goes through an eq pedal before the play acoustic.

 

To me it’s really all about having some judicious processing on the vocals. We’ve played a bunch of open mics where the vocals sound like shit and are completely flat. My little cheap ass pa sounds so much better because of the processing though. It also helps to have someone who can really sing like she can. Her ability for a completely untrained amateur is truly insane. I couldn’t be more lucky in that regard.

 

Yes the iPad is for lyrics, and chords for me. I have a system where I chart every song on one page in word. Then I image copy (and make each one fill the whole page) into PowerPoint so I can use the slide sorter screen to order set lists. Save as pdf. Open in pdf reader on iPad. We don’t scroll. Too hard to get the rate right. So it’s one page. Sometimes it’s hard to read. But we’re pretty memorized. But it’s helpful to be able to look down for reference from time to time. We’re big on trying to not reading lyrics while performing. Looks cheesy I think. As my voice coach always says, sing the song, don’t let the song sing you. And I think the song tends to sing you if you have to read the lyrics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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All that said I don’t dig my guitar tone much at all. Doesn’t sound organic and single high notes sound thin with zero oomph. I mess around with compression all the time. But no magic bullets yet. So that’s still very much a work in process.

 

I’m tempted to upgrade to a nice QSC speaker but haven’t yet. I also longingly lust for a Bose L1 Model 2.

 

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tbone, in my meager attempts to become a less vanilla singer, I came to some similar conclusions.  The vocal feeds needs to be pretty wet, whether recording with headphones or playing live off monitors.  That feedback (echo, delay, reverb, whatever) allows me to stay dead on pitch, even if my voice is pretty dull, and in the process I can focus more on the performance and less on just trying to hear myself and stay in tune.

Ideally, the monitor feed could be distinct from what goes out to the audience (or "tape"), so even if the singer hears a swirling mass of effects the audience doesn't (necessarily).

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57 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I put this on the "Composition" thread, but we're really kind of a big dumb guitar rawk band, so here's some big dumb guitar rawk.  Hopefully we can start talking about how to record big dumb rawk guitars.

Left-panned guitar (the one that plays through the verses):  mid-80's Gibson Les Paul Standard through a Marshall JCM 800 50 watt half-stack (deep Fender 4x12 cabinet that sounds unreal), Shure SM57 on lower left cone through Great River original mic preamp.  No pedals.

Right-panned guitar:  fairly recent G&L ASAT Tribute Bluesboy semi-hollow Tele through a Vox "Tony Bruno" model (kind of Vox' Fender knockoff), Shure SM57 on the cone through Great River original mic preamp.  No pedals.

Bass:  direct into the audio interface (Focusrite Scarlett)

Drums:  a pair of Microtech-Gefell M300 small diaphragm condenser overheads through Great River original mic preamp, an Electrovoice RE20 through a Sytek mic preamp on kick drum, a Shure SM57 through a Sytek mic preamp on the bottom head of the snare (which I regret, should have mic'ed the top head, but it always feel like I get too much "oom" and not enough "snk" and now all I have is "snk").

Vocals:  Shure Beta 58 (because my large diaphragm condenser fell and seems to be busted) through the Focusrite Scarlett preamp, it's my daughter singing

Keys:  MIDI triggered via Yamaha S80 into Kontakt, Billy Preston organ patch

All recorded and mixed in my spare bedroom.  The DAW is Reaper, mix monitors are M-Audio BX8s, which have a surprising amount of low end response, sometimes leading me to mix a bit shy on the bottom end, but I tried.  My meager attempt at compressing the stereo mix seems a bit obvious to me coming out of the bridge as the vocal ("it'll be alright") makes the band's level pump.  I have a mastering friend who is going to take the uncompressed mix and do better.

 

 

All of that micing and sound engineering makes my head hurt :D.  Sounds great.

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6 minutes ago, Goredho said:

All of that micing and sound engineering makes my head hurt :D.  Sounds great.

Honestly, I think the takeaway should be stick a damn mic in front of the thing making the noise and record it.  Some of my gear is still pretty good (the drum overhead mics, the Great River preamp) but most of it is very mid-level consumer grade stuff.

We recorded all the amps inside a tiny walkin closet (maybe 4x4) and tried really hard to dial in the amp tones until they sounded like what we wanted to hear, instead of waiting to "fix it in the mix".  There is no EQ on the guitars.  If there's one thing I've learned over the years, I do not have the ability to "fix it in the mix".  (See, for instance, the sound of the snare drum on this tune.) 

I'd love to hear anyone who has mixed or mastered anything start talking about what they do.  

Edited by jimmyjazz
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1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'd love to hear anyone who has mixed or mastered anything start talking about what they do.  

So I have kind of gone full digitard with a Line6 Helix LT.  Its used for all the tone sculpting in all my stuff in the composition thread.   Everything not a drum is a guitar through the Helix, including the bass parts.  You can see it on the right under the whiteboard here.

711-B457-D-99-BA-4210-885-C-5-A0-DCC9-B5

It functions as a USB audio interface for both in and out.  So my input pipeline is guitar -> helix -> computer/DAW.  My output pipeline is computer -> helix -> active studio monitors.

So the best way to sum up the Helix is that it is a digital modeling workstation in a slick hardware package that is built for the stage.  It models different preamps & amps, like say a marshall/plexi, or a fender tweed or a supro.  It models differents cabs with different speakers and virtual mics and their placement relative to the cab.  It models stomboxes and you can arrange a signal chains with splits, and such.  So I might have it set up with Klon centaur model into a delay model into a reverb model.  Etc...  The following is a long video, but shows a lot of what can be done with the Helix feature wise and its interface design.


So a lot of what you described involving real amps, mics, etc... I do virtually in the Helix.  Or at least has been done by someone creating a preset that I downloaded.  You probably are aware of the Israeli/Palestinian debate as to whether digital amp emulation is as good as real tube amps, etc...  I don't think so, at least not when comparing play through my Vox AC30 vs the Helix modeling a Vox AC30 into the full-range studio monitors.  It sounds close and good, but there is something missing that may simply be the amount of air being moved by the speakers.  I don't know.  But, for my hobbiest recording needs, the Helix kills it because:

1. I don't have a lot of gear outside of my guitars and it would take a lot of time/money to acquire it
2. I don't have much knowledge of sound engineering, micing, etc...
3. I can take presets created by others and tweak to my liking
4. I can't really tell the difference between a miced amp in the daw and the helix in the daw

If I had a big investment in amps, mics, stompboxes, etc... it would not provide near the value and I might feel differently about going full digital.  The Helix is pricey at $1699 for the full version and $1199 for the LT version, but it emulates probably hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of gear.  Boutique amps, pedals, etc...  If you want it solely for recording, there is a Helix Native AST plugin for DAWs that costs $399.  If you were to go that route, you are on your own for an interface to get your guitar's signal into the computer and your computer audio to your monitors.

Here is another demo vid by Pete Thorn that is more of a demo of the range of tones possible and how it can be incorporated into your rig in different ways.
 



Finally, here are some reference lists and resources for the Helix:

Edited by Goredho
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Yeah, I get that.  I admit to the same in using convolution reverbs.  I am literally using numerical, measured room responses from some of the greatest studios and other spaces in the world.  I can't go rent Abbey Road -- I couldn't do it even if I could afford it.  But I can digitally put my amp in that room, and numerically, to the limits of the math, it's identical.  It's NOT synthesis.  It's as good as it gets without being there.  It's using actual measured reverberation data from their room.

I've long since gotten over the amp VS model argument.  For me, there is a visceral thrill in turning up my buddy's Marshall and grabbing that sound.  It may only be ONE sound, or a few variations on that theme, but it works for us, so that's what we do.  Everything we record, with the exception of the keyboards, is real, and the only reasons I don't buy a B3 and a Fender Rhodes are (a) cost (b) space and (c) I'm a hack.  So, we get by with samples on the keys.

Edited by jimmyjazz
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11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Yeah, I get that.  I admit to the same in using convolution reverbs.  I am literally using numerical, measured room responses from some of the greatest studios and other spaces in the world.  I can't go rent Abbey Road -- I couldn't do it even if I can afford it.  But I can digitally put my amp in that room, and numerically, to the limits of the math, it's identical.  It's NOT synthesis.  It's as good as it gets without being there.  It's using actual measured reverberation data from their room.

I've long since gotten over the amp VS model argument.  For me, there is a visceral thrill in turning up my buddy's Marshall and grabbing that sound.  It may only be ONE sound, or a few variations on that theme, but it works for us, so that's what we do.  Everything we record, with the exception of the keyboards, is real, and the only reasons I don't buy a B3 and a Fender Rhodes are (a) cost (b) space and (c) I'm a hack.  So, we get by with samples on the keys.

Yeah, when you are in the room, I don’t think a modeler compares to the equivalent real amp, and I think you nailed it by describing the feeling/sound as visceral.  The sound might have the exact same frequencies at the exact same decibel levels and somehow there is some missing quality that leads to different impulses received by my brain.  But when the end result is a long ass binary number in MP3/WAV/AVI or whatever format that gets translated and output through FR speakers in your car or whatever, you are losing whatever that “it” is either way.  Whether recorded from a real amp and mic or a modeller direct to DAW.

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I used a Line6 Guitarport for a long time and there were some damn good tones in that thing at bedroom volumes. 
 

tbone those TC Helicon pedals are awesome. They make some really cool stuff. 
 

And yeah, those Bose PA’s are badass. 

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17 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

I'd love to hear anyone who has mixed or mastered anything start talking about what they do.  

JJ, nothing can replace the quality of utilizing professional mixers and mastering engineers...

BUT, i will say i have been absolutely thrilled with what i get out of ozone for mastering and neutron/tonal balance control for mixing from these guys.  their software is fantastic.

https://www.izotope.com

 

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2 hours ago, sidis said:

JJ, nothing can replace the quality of utilizing professional mixers and mastering engineers...

BUT, i will say i have been absolutely thrilled with what i get out of ozone for mastering and neutron/tonal balance control for mixing from these guys.  their software is fantastic.

https://www.izotope.com

 

Looking forward to trying this, thanks for the rec and thanks @jimmyjazz for asking for suggestions that prompted it.  I like the idea of pointing a tool like this at a track and it using AI to figure out how to master it though perhaps with the ability to tweak a bit after its analysis.  What excites me is writing, composing, arranging and playing.  I really don't care to invest the time/effort to become a good sound/mastering engineer to come up with a killer final master mix.  If I can have a tool that gets me a pretty good mix and I don't have to think about it, that's good enough for me.

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1 hour ago, Goredho said:

Looking forward to trying this, thanks for the rec and thanks @jimmyjazz for asking for suggestions that prompted it.  I like the idea of pointing a tool like this at a track and it using AI to figure out how to master it though perhaps with the ability to tweak a bit after its analysis.  What excites me is writing, composing, arranging and playing.  I really don't care to invest the time/effort to become a good sound/mastering engineer to come up with a killer final master mix.  If I can have a tool that gets me a pretty good mix and I don't have to think about it, that's good enough for me.

the mastering AI on ozone is really fucking good in my opinion.  It almost always comes out better afterwards as long as i use it properly.  the limiter technology is the best i have seen and i haven't ever gotten any clipping at any volume.  the other thing they have really invested a lot of time and tech into is the use of reference tracks throughout.  you can import any song(s) in to act as a direct reference on the EQ, the spectral, the exciter, limiter, etc...  i find that to be incredibly useful for fully realizing a particular sound i am thinking of but can't visualize across the EQ.  so i pull in something that sounds similar and can watch my track overlaid with the reference across the entire EQ band with countless channels to manipulate to get it juuuuust right.  or, if you just pick a genre, they have built in a reference track proxy for the genre and style based on thousands of songs from that genre.  but i usually have to spend fewer than 30 minutes working on mastering for any track using ozone which makes it super useful.

on neutron, i don't really love the AI mixing assistant.  it too often doesn't get what i am going for but it has countless preset mixes based on genre/style/tone type that i will often use as a starting place.  then i will nudge things in the direction i want to do so in conjunction with the tonal balance control.  again, you can utilize specific reference tracks in neutron which is pretty key.  anyway, strongly recommend these two programs as totally competent substitutes for doing it "the right way" and paying professionals to do it.

to make this more relevant to the thread...pic of four pickup mexistrat sitting right next to me right now.

spacer.png

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Upon further review the Fireflies may have to go. There is just too much I don’t like and I’m not really interested in dumping money into them to get them playable.

The buzz from both bridges is really bad. One is a Tele style and one is a Strat style and I don’t know how to fix either.

The necks are really fat and I have smallish hands so I don’t love that. And the frets and fretboard have their own issues. They aren’t easy to play.

As mentioned before the lack of belly cut makes them uncomfortable.

That said, what I think this helped confirm is that a) I I don’t think I’ll ever be a traditional Tele guy. I just don’t need that sound in my lineup. But b) I think I’d really like to have a P-90 or Jazzmaster type guitar. I definitely like the P-90s better.

I think I just need to come to terms with what I’ve always known: I’m a Strat guy. I need to take my PRS and trade it in on a nice SSS Strat to go with my American HH Strat.

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2 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

Upon further review the Fireflies may have to go. There is just too much I don’t like and I’m not really interested in dumping money into them to get them playable.

The buzz from both bridges is really bad. One is a Tele style and one is a Strat style and I don’t know how to fix either.

The necks are really fat and I have smallish hands so I don’t love that. And the frets and fretboard have their own issues. They aren’t easy to play.

As mentioned before the lack of belly cut makes them uncomfortable.

That said, what I think this helped confirm is that a) I I don’t think I’ll ever be a traditional Tele guy. I just don’t need that sound in my lineup. But b) I think I’d really like to have a P-90 or Jazzmaster type guitar. I definitely like the P-90s better.

I think I just need to come to terms with what I’ve always known: I’m a Strat guy. I need to take my PRS and trade it in on a nice SSS Strat to go with my American HH Strat.

I'm so much happier when I did the same with my Les Paul.  I just never connected with it.  I LOVED looking at it...just not playing it.  It KILLED me to get rid of it, but I ended up with that 62 Epi Century.  In the 8 months I've had it, I've already played it more than I did that LP in 5 years.  I took it to band practice for the first time on Sunday and the drummer couldn't quit gushing over the sound of that single P90.  

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Potential "stimulus" guitar on sale here. Very nice...

 

https://slickdeals.net/f/14083916-prs-se-custom-24-zebrawood-electric-guitar-vintage-sunburst-580?src=frontpage

$580 at musiciansfriend.com

PRS SE Custom 24 Zebrawood Electric Guitar Vintage Sunburst
 
FEATURES
  • Mahogany body, carved maple top with zebrawood veneer
  • 25” scale, 24-fret maple neck with rosewood fingerboard
  • PRS 85/15 “S” humbuckers with push/pull coil-tap on tone control
  • PRS-designed tuners and 6-screw tremolo bridge

 

K54049000001000-00-1600x1600.jpg

 

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I like the shape, feel and overall looks of them quite a bit. But the initial buzz has already worn off and I don't think I'm gonna get one, though with the coil taps looks like a pretty sweet deal. I just can't justify it for as little as I have been playing, and the zebra wood looks pretty smooth, but I'd rather have flame or quilted maple veneer.

I need to play the guitars I have more. I know it's a crazy thought, but that's where I am these days.

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If money were no object I would have an arsenal of PRS guitars and probably a couple of amps. I wish I had bought a USA version back when you could get a nice one for around a grand. With lotto money (which I don't play) I'd get the Grissom set.

I tend to veer towards the single cut versions though. I have two Korean models, really great value. But I've been kinda wishing I had the regular shaped version and a strat type trem.

Edited by DougO
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On 5/22/2020 at 2:03 PM, Buzzrock said:

So first impressions: there are a few little fit and finish issues as expected, and they need a little setup work (fret buzz). Neck like a baseball bat. But they sound pretty damn good through the Fender.

The Facebook group has lists of drop in parts so I’ll probably at least replace the tuners at some point. They’re crap.

And I don’t love the lack of belly cut for my belly.

But I’m most impressed with how they both sound. They definitely prefer the Fender to the Katana at least initially. And they look pretty spiffy.

On the Firefly Thinline Tele, Is say that the neck is like a fungo bat. Slim D shape, but the neck needed light sanding because of the thick layer of clear on the back of the neck looks great for showing off the grain, but is like Velcro on the hand. 

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F Hole Friday: 

Triple Shot (for now.. saving something for next week.)

Epiphone Dot with dramatic backdrop.

F-Hole-Dot.jpg

 

Firefly FFTH with a fairly non-baseball bat neck (photos later).

F-Hole-FFTH.jpg

 

Firefly FF338 Pimpin' Purple

F-Hole-FF338-Purple.jpg

*Scratch guard stick is still on this one (as is the tag hanging off the neck), because I haven't decided which FF338, if any, I'm going to keep.

 

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Appreciate the Firefly report.  Are they decent enough for someone to not be held back in learning on one?


The two I have will take some work before they are playable. The big neck is reason enough for pause.

If I was advising a beginner I’d say get a Squier HSS Strat. Affordable and playable and versatile.
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https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=99144&content=songs
 

found this last night and never knew it existed  on the internet. This is my bad from 2001. Our singer didn’t make any sense but when we together for like 3 years it was the best times of my life writing and playing as well as performing. Don’t roast me to hard. My gear:

PRS custom 24 with 10 top 

mesa single rec head

marshall 1960a cab

 

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5 minutes ago, Bogeywon said:

https://www.soundclick.com/artist/default.cfm?bandID=99144&content=songs
 

found this last night and never knew it existed  on the internet. This is my bad from 2001. Our singer didn’t make any sense but when we together for like 3 years it was the best times of my life writing and playing as well as performing. Don’t roast me to hard. My gear:

PRS custom 24 with 10 top 

mesa single rec head

marshall 1960a cab

 

Dig it!  I hear the influences.  I definitely hear the Mesa.  Was this an Austin band?

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