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1 hour ago, Dewey said:

You said you're putting a ceiling in at 11 or 12', where does your top plate sit? Same as the header height at the window? What type of ceiling?  I wouldn't move that brace until you have a temporary brace up, then remove, a little  more fram work, cut that brace to fit further up the wall. 

I'm still not sure what that kicker (brace) is doing, but you can't move it up the wall without decreasing its angle or shortening it (which would increase the ridge beams effective length and loading).

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2 hours ago, Dewey said:

You said you're putting a ceiling in at 11 or 12', where does your top plate sit? Same as the header height at the window? What type of ceiling?  I wouldn't move that brace until you have a temporary brace up, then remove, a little  more fram work, cut that brace to fit further up the wall. 

Going to put in new bracing for the ceiling; ledger boards on both walls supported by new studs.

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15 hours ago, capnamerca said:

Appreciate the insight here, all. I'll probably have someone come look at it; drt mind dropping me a PM with your guys' number? I'm actually more interested at this point in making sure it's done right, since I"m finishing out that space it just makes it harder to fix something in the future.

 

Onboard, you've got the right plan; I've got no issues furring around it when the time comes, just wanted to see what my options are.

PM sent

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47 minutes ago, capnamerca said:

Going to put in new bracing for the ceiling; ledger boards on both walls supported by new studs.

You don't need ledger bds. just hang the new ceiling joists from the roof rafters as collar ties ( (3-4) 10d nails @ each connection) @ each roof rafter at the height above the floor you want the new ceiling line. 

2 x 8's should be sufficient with the 24" spacing of rafters, but I'd have the verified for local code compliance.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You don't need ledger bds. just hang the new ceiling joists from the roof rafters as collar ties ( (3-4) 10d nails @ each connection) @ each roof rafter at the height above the floor you want the new ceiling line. 

2 x 8's should be sufficient with the 24" spacing of rafters, but I'd have the verified for local code compliance.

Worried about supporting total weight - we will still need to use the space above the room as storage. Rather safe than sorry, esp since there's no incremental labor cost (just my sweat). Also, the inside wall (not pictured) needs a ledger board anyway - it's vertical plywood as the outside of the existing house envelope. I'll support the ledgerboard with flat-mounted 2x4's. The space between the 2x4's is actually perfect for sound dampening material, so win-win.

Edited by capnamerca

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9 minutes ago, capnamerca said:

Worried about supporting total weight - we will still need to use the space above the room as storage. Rather safe than sorry, esp since there's no incremental labor cost (just my sweat). Also, the inside wall (not pictured) needs a ledger board anyway - it's vertical plywood as the outside of the existing house envelope. I'll support the ledgerboard with flat-mounted 2x4's. The space between the 2x4's is actually perfect for sound dampening material, so win-win.

With roof rafters @ 24" o.c. you might wanna have an engineer review that then. If you're just supporting light storage or an HVAC handler you don't need a whole lot to do that. Not sure where you'd put a ledger bd. against the roof rafters though (and it wouldn't be doing much anyway).  Your new ceiling joist/ collar tie span will be parallel to those  existing roof rafters.  

The ridge beam will need to be verified for its load carrying capacity as well with intended storage above the new ceiling.  A few hundred bucks should cover an engineers fee. You should be able to do the whole thing with his site visit as long as you give him correct sizes, spacing, and enough images.

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2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

With roof rafters @ 24" o.c. you might wanna have an engineer review that then. If you're just supporting light storage or an HVAC handler you don't need a whole lot to do that. Not sure where you'd put a ledger bd. against the roof rafters though (and it wouldn't be doing much anyway).  Your new ceiling joist/ collar tie span will be parallel to those  existing roof rafters.  

The ridge beam will need to be verified for its load carrying capacity as well with intended storage above the new ceiling.  A few hundred bucks should cover an engineers fee. You should be able to do the whole thing with his site visit as long as you give him correct sizes, spacing, and enough images.

Agreed 100pct. I'm still working out plans, drawings, etc. Goal is to be able to review, probably even chalk-line out, the full structural plan with someone when they come out.

Appreciate all the insight and brainstorming on this thread.

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6 minutes ago, capnamerca said:

Agreed 100pct. I'm still working out plans, drawings, etc. Goal is to be able to review, probably even chalk-line out, the full structural plan with someone when they come out.

Appreciate all the insight and brainstorming on this thread.

really enjoying the insight into your thought process here.  we might be doing the same thing with our space above the garage in a few years so if you have time it'd be cool to see what you end up doing.  do you have a technical background in structural engineering?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

really enjoying the insight into your thought process here.  we might be doing the same thing with our space above the garage in a few years so if you have time it'd be cool to see what you end up doing.  do you have a technical background in structural engineering?

I've got some serious grand plans :). I'll share pics and progress here, for sure.

I don't have a background in anything official, but my family is littered with craftsmen. My grandfather and uncle built houses for ~30 years. Dad and several uncles are hobbyist handymen, haven't met a project they can't tackle. I've had that same attitude taught to me growing up - we rarely outsourced a project, always did it ourselves. Electrical work, construction work, flooring/tile, plumbing, etc. I'm a little more careful than dad (thus some of these planning questions); dad will sometimes just jump in and start cutting. But I'll tell you this - his eye is AMAZING. We'll start something and I"ll have no idea what the endgame is, and when it's done it looks like a professional tradesman did the work. I learn something new every day from him, and we've been doing projects like this together for 30 years.

Edited by capnamerca

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22 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Man, 24"  roof rafter spans.....  Eventually you may see nice little divet/swales form between the rafter spans, and typically a ridge beam, with what looks like an LVL (laminated veneer beam) is 2 members not one with (2) 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 support posts at each end.

I see H clips, so not really much of a concern.  We get roofs with yips & dips occasionally, however a Dimensional / Architectural shingle will absorb that whereas a 3Tab will let all of that "show through" much more easily.  The most common issue is a lift where the staples (not usually nails) didn't hit the truss well enough & eventually a lift shows.  If the topside view appears to be a max. 4' run, then for sure it's the missed staples.

@capnamerca, are you gonna get that decking foam sprayed before finishing it out?  My #1 problem with that type of rat line is it prevents the installation of a ridge vent.

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8 minutes ago, ROFL BOX said:

I see H clips, so not really much of a concern.  We get roofs with yips & dips occasionally, however a Dimensional / Architectural shingle will absorb that whereas a 3Tab will let all of that "show through" much more easily.  The most common issue is a lift where the staples (not usually nails) didn't hit the truss well enough & eventually a lift shows.  If the topside view appears to be a max. 4' run, then for sure it's the missed staples.

@capnamerca, are you gonna get that decking foam sprayed before finishing it out?  My #1 problem with that type of rat line is it prevents the installation of a ridge vent.

Well, the plan was to spray before finishing it out, to basically turn the entire unfinished attic into the new house envelope. When we built, the insulation contractor said "if we spray, the you won't put in a ridge vent ... if we batt, then we'll put in a ridge vent". That said, I finally got around to hard-core space calculations, and the space isn't big enough for the golf simulator I want to build. I've got room to swing a club, yeah, but not to space back from the screen AND include seating and such that the wife wants. So we're most likely going to leave it as-is for now. Possibility of making it into a home theater in the future, but not going to do that for now since the living room setup is perfectly adequate for that.

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20 minutes ago, ROFL BOX said:

I see H clips, so not really much of a concern.  We get roofs with yips & dips occasionally, however a Dimensional / Architectural shingle will absorb that whereas a 3Tab will let all of that "show through" much more easily.  The most common issue is a lift where the staples (not usually nails) didn't hit the truss well enough & eventually a lift shows.  If the topside view appears to be a max. 4' run, then for sure it's the missed staples.

@capnamerca, are you gonna get that decking foam sprayed before finishing it out?  My #1 problem with that type of rat line is it prevents the installation of a ridge vent.

Thanks, didn't look close enough to see the H clips. I haven't specified those in years. I just space rafters at 16", even truss sets.  Yep, those ridge vents are important if you need to vent the roof efficiently.  Seems like there'd be a spacer by someone, like an insulation baffle at eaves to keep a clean path to allow for a ridge vent between the foam spray.

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24 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Seems like there'd be a spacer by someone, like an insulation baffle at eaves to keep a clean path to allow for a ridge vent between the foam spray.

Say HuhWhut?

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34 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Thanks, didn't look close enough to see the H clips. I haven't specified those in years. I just space rafters at 16", even truss sets.  Yep, those ridge vents are important if you need to vent the roof efficiently.  Seems like there'd be a spacer by someone, like an insulation baffle at eaves to keep a clean path to allow for a ridge vent between the foam spray.

Pick one or ther other.  You can't have both.

Plus, if you're going to create a new, foam insulated envelope in your attic then you need to do the entire house envelope and not just the attic.  Moist air goes up.  Foam seal at top level with no venting is going to cause all sorts of moisture problems because with foam you seal the envelope and should not incorporate ridge vents (no moisture exhaust) and the soffit and / or gable intakes need to be sealed (no intake), as well.  To boot, your first floor level is not sealed and has many air leaks which will combine with the lower level moist air that heats and rises and goes to.....your foam sealed / non-vented attic.   That's not going to work out to well.

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Pick one or ther other.  You can't have both.

Plus, if you're going to create a new, foam insulated envelope in your attic then you need to do the entire house envelope and not just the attic.  Moist air goes up.  Foam seal at top level with no venting is going to cause all sorts of moisture problems because with foam you seal the envelope and should not incorporate ridge vents (no moisture exhaust) and the soffit and / or gable intakes need to be sealed (no intake), as well.  To boot, your first floor level is not sealed and has many air leaks which will combine with the lower level moist air that heats and rises and goes to.....your foam sealed / non-vented attic.   That's not going to work out to well.

 

 Wasnt really thinking it thru if you're gonna spray a roof deck you're probably conditioning The attic so no need for A ridge vent anyway

Edited by Onboard 2.0

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1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Want really thinking it thru if you're gonna spray a roof deck you're probably conditioning The attic so no need for A ridge vent anyway

The problem is just spraying the roof deck, covering ridge vents and not sealing the rest of the house.  You've put a sealed lid on a hot tub with nowhere for the moist air to go.  

Either spray the entire house or don't do it at all.  Therein lies the problem for exisiting structures.  Nobody wants to pay for taking the joint down to the studs for applying spray foam insulation to the bottom of the roof decking and inside of the sheathing.

Ain't gonna happen, Cap'n.

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2 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Ain't gonna happen, Cap'n.

You're a poet & might have known it.

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22 minutes ago, deadshank said:

The problem is just spraying the roof deck, covering ridge vents and not sealing the rest of the house.  You've put a sealed lid on a hot tub with nowhere for the moist air to go.  

Either spray the entire house or don't do it at all.  Therein lies the problem for exisiting structures.  Nobody wants to pay for taking the joint down to the studs for applying spray foam insulation to the bottom of the roof decking and inside of the sheathing.

Ain't gonna happen, Cap'n.

Not if you condition the attic and you put HVAC and or De humidification in the attic the excess moisture is dealt with similar to conditioning a crawlspace which we do up here on the East Coast regularly

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Not if you condition the attic and you put HVAC and or De humidification in the attic the excess moisture is dealt with similar to conditioning a crawlspace which we do up here on the East Coast regularly

Conditioning the attic is part of the deal when it comes to spray foam insulation.  Dehumidifiers?  No way because you have a continual negative pressure condition with the house sucking in outside air that can't escpape.  

Edited by deadshank
FIGHT ME!!!!

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How about we rely on the natural dynamics of heat & moisture movement vs. hoping a dehumidifier is going to A_ always work / not break or die & B_ have enough air movement to get the job done?

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23 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Conditioning the attic is part of the deal when it comes to spray foam insulation.  Dehumidifiers?  No way because you have a continual negative pressure condition with the house sucking in outside air that can't escpape.  

Air conditioning by its very nature is dehumidification. 

 

We add ERV's so air turnover is balanced. 

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10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Air conditioning by its very nature is dehumidification. 

 

 

Yes, it is.  But usually not enough when constant humidity is added and other humidity exhaust sources (ridge vents, turbines, etc.) are deleted.

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The whole house is spray, and appropriately conditioned. We had good AC and insulation subs when we built.

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I'm late to the game here, but why can't you have an engineer spec beam for your ceiling joists that runs directly beneath the ridge beam?  Install a new 2X or 3X LVL beam that sits on 2X or 3X studs at the gable ends, then add bracing up to the new ridge beam to get rid of that kicker support?

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38 minutes ago, Spaulding Smails said:

I'm late to the game here, but why can't you have an engineer spec beam for your ceiling joists that runs directly beneath the ridge beam?  Install a new 2X or 3X LVL beam that sits on 2X or 3X studs at the gable ends, then add bracing up to the new ridge beam to get rid of that kicker support?

Listen to this man........ maybe.  

 

Yeah thats another plan. Costs need to be evaluated IMO. 

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2 hours ago, capnamerca said:

The whole house is spray, and appropriately conditioned. We had good AC and insulation subs when we built.

Looks like they forgot to spray the attic. 

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This is unfinished above-garage space. The house envelope is sprayed (and vented).

 Not sure why you're coming at this so negatively, but ok.

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5 minutes ago, capnamerca said:

This is unfinished above-garage space. The house envelope is sprayed (and vented).

 Not sure why you're coming at this so negatively, but ok.

He said a roofer brah, they're a salty Lot.

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9 hours ago, capnamerca said:

This is unfinished above-garage space. The house envelope is sprayed (and vented).

 Not sure why you're coming at this so negatively, but ok.

Sorry.  Didn’t pick up on the “over the garage” part.  My bad. 
 

We do get people wanting to foam their attics but not the rest of their house.   We tell them don’t do it.  They do it anyway.  Heartbreak and gnashing of teeth ensue.  
 

I hope your project works out. 
 

 

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42 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Sorry.  Didn’t pick up on the “over the garage” part.  My bad. 
 

We do get people wanting to foam their attics but not the rest of their house.   We tell them don’t do it.  They do it anyway.  Heartbreak and gnashing of teeth ensue.  
 

I hope your project works out. 
 

 

Yeah I totally get that. We went through several design cycles when we were building - the front of our hour faces SSW, so the afternoon sun is BRUTAL (pretty decent for our solar panels tho). I also appreciate your expertise here.

 

Project has already been killed. The research phase shows that I don't really have enough room for the golf sim. A bummer sure, but I'd rather know now than after we invest a bunch of money and time.

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Maybe not the appropriate thread but hoping this one gets enough traffic.

Any recs for spray foam co’s to come spray an attic in the North Houston burbs?

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4 hours ago, Coyote said:

Maybe not the appropriate thread but hoping this one gets enough traffic.

Any recs for spray foam co’s to come spray an attic in the North Houston burbs?

@deadshank, you wanna take this one?

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11 hours ago, Coyote said:

Maybe not the appropriate thread but hoping this one gets enough traffic.

Any recs for spray foam co’s to come spray an attic in the North Houston burbs?

 

6 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

@deadshank, you wanna take this one?

Best Insulation is reasonable in price, we’ve had no issues with their work and will take on smaller jobs. Actually based in Dripping Springs, America.    
 

Before you spray your attic....why?  Is that the best thing for you?  Do you know what the ins / outs, pros / cons and details that your weren’t told or read in a brochure?  
 

 

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Recently built house has a good size walk-in space in the attic that I'd like to utilize. Figured spraying it and finishing out some flooring would give a good amount of storage space that wouldn't be unbearable throughout the year while also helping keep the upstairs cooler. Honestly I haven't looked through all of my options as this just popped up as something I'd like to finish out before I have to figure out where to store all of the holiday shit my wife buys again this year.

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22 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Recently built house has a good size walk-in space in the attic that I'd like to utilize. Figured spraying it and finishing out some flooring would give a good amount of storage space that wouldn't be unbearable throughout the year while also helping keep the upstairs cooler. Honestly I haven't looked through all of my options as this just popped up as something I'd like to finish out before I have to figure out where to store all of the holiday shit my wife buys again this year.

Upthread, you can see that this has been discussed at length.  @Onboard 2.0 and I have differing views on partial application of SF in existing homes.  There is a lot to consider when foaming an existing house.  The primary consideration is venting and fresh air intake.

Remember, "hot" attics are the norm.  If your attic is properly vented through traditional means and is within 20-30 degrees of  the outside ambient temperature  then you're operating within the norm.  Your batt insulation separates the hot attic from the conditioned air portion of the house.  The venting primarly exhausts humidity and secondarily vents heat.

If you seal up your soffit vents (intake) and delete your ridge vents, turbines or air hawks (exhaust) and then apply foam only to the underside of only the roof deck you have effectively put a lid on top or your house.  The balance of the house is not foamed and will have multiple air leaks (negative pressure) and the customary sources of humidity (all plumbing water sources, breathing, etc.)  that can't move upward to exhaust out the top of the structure.  You do not have a completely sealed building envelope and your humidity levels will rise.  Humidity will cause your remaining batt insulation above your ceiling drywall  to be rendered ineffective becuase it will be wet.  

In our experience, it is best to foam the entire house and achieve an entirely sealed building envelope or go about heat reduction in the attic through traditional means via radiant barriers and better insulation.  

So, before you leap in and buy what some guy is selling make sure to understand what SF is all about and the details.  Items like gas-fed / tanked water heaters in attics must be properly vented and potentially be incubated in their own sealed mini-room to prevent CO2 leakage into the sealed environment.

 

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7 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Upthread, you can see that this has been discussed at length.  @Onboard 2.0 and I have differing views on partial application of SF in existing homes.  There is a lot to consider when foaming an existing house.  The primary consideration is venting and fresh air intake.

Remember, "hot" attics are the norm.  If your attic is properly vented through traditional means and is within 20-30 degrees of  the outside ambient temperature  then you're operating within the norm.  Your batt insulation separates the hot attic from the conditioned air portion of the house.  The venting primarly exhausts humidity and secondarily vents heat.

If you seal up your soffit vents (intake) and delete your ridge vents, turbines or air hawks (exhaust) and then apply foam only to the underside of only the roof deck you have effectively put a lid on top or your house.  The balance of the house is not foamed and will have multiple air leaks (negative pressure) and the customary sources of humidity (all plumbing water sources, breathing, etc.)  that can't move upward to exhaust out the top of the structure.  You do not have a completely sealed building envelope and your humidity levels will rise.  Humidity will cause your remaining batt insulation above your ceiling drywall  to be rendered ineffective becuase it will be wet.  

In our experience, it is best to foam the entire house and achieve an entirely sealed building envelope or go about heat reduction in the attic through traditional means via radiant barriers and better insulation.  

So, before you leap in and buy what some guy is selling make sure to understand what SF is all about and the details.  Items like gas-fed / tanked water heaters in attics must be properly vented and potentially be incubated in their own sealed mini-room to prevent CO2 leakage into the sealed environment.

 

I'm not sure we differ on partial or not.  I'm an advocate of total if you're going to do it,  but think there are ways to do a partial spray foam/ batt installation.  I still say if you condition your attic you will remove the humidity, and make for a better, cooler house that doesn't make the HVAC system work over time when it's installed in a 150 + degree attic, insulation on duct work or not.

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2 hours ago, deadshank said:

 

Best Insulation is reasonable in price, we’ve had no issues with their work and will take on smaller jobs. Actually based in Dripping Springs, America.    
 

Before you spray your attic....why?  Is that the best thing for you?  Do you know what the ins / outs, pros / cons and details that your weren’t told or read in a brochure?  
 

 

PRO TIP: Never believe a sales brochure....

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2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm not sure we differ on partial or not.  I'm an advocate of total if you're going to do it,  but think there are ways to do a partial spray foam/ batt installation.  I still say if you condition your attic you will remove the humidity, and make for a better, cooler house that doesn't make the HVAC system work over time when it's installed in a 150 + degree attic, insulation on duct work or not.

I agree on total.  Good way to go when properly completed.  I'm a no-go on partial.

 

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1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

PRO TIP: Never believe a sales brochure....

Yet I still got married.

Ugh.

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@deadshank , you saw that graphic?

Surly (the PC version, not TapaTalk) must now be allowing direct image posts vs. having to copy / pasta from another hosted source.  I did that as a screen grab via my notebook & posted here.

&... Apparently perm. closed operation.  Never heard of them out here.

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35 minutes ago, ROFL BOX said:

@deadshank , you saw that graphic?

Surly (the PC version, not TapaTalk) must now be allowing direct image posts vs. having to copy / pasta from another hosted source.  I did that as a screen grab via my notebook & posted here.

&... Apparently perm. closed operation.  Never heard of them out here.

I did.  The may have shut down  the DS location.  Have a call into the Houston sales rep.  

Will report back with any breaking news.

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1 hour ago, ROFL BOX said:

@deadshank , you saw that graphic?

Surly (the PC version, not TapaTalk) must now be allowing direct image posts vs. having to copy / pasta from another hosted source.  I did that as a screen grab via my notebook & posted here.

&... Apparently perm. closed operation.  Never heard of them out here.

The business is still open with multiple locations.

http://bestinsulationaustin.com/

The Drip address is where the money is sent and the books are kept.  

Don't believe everything you read on the interwebs.

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@deadshank ... had this question yesterday:

Is there such a thing as "too much" blown in insulation or batts of insulation in an attic?  Not meaning "6 ft. high & you can't negotiate the attic for servicing something like a leak" but maybe have reasonable or maybe 12" of blown insulation & then laying rolls of faced batts on top of that.

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6 hours ago, ROFL BOX said:

@deadshank ... had this question yesterday:

Is there such a thing as "too much" blown in insulation or batts of insulation in an attic?  Not meaning "6 ft. high & you can't negotiate the attic for servicing something like a leak" but maybe have reasonable or maybe 12" of blown insulation & then laying rolls of faced batts on top of that.

Mechanically: probably not, but why?

Financially: yes.   Save some money for whiskey and cigarettes 

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21 minutes ago, deadshank said:

Mechanically: probably not, but why?

Financially: yes.   Save some money for whiskey and cigarettes   weed, and cigars.

More better.

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Its been more than a few years,  and I dont recall much of the conversation,  but had a homeowner wanting to go crazy with insulation and the pro told them to stop, because at a certain point, there is such a thing as too much, that your house needs to breathe. He went on about the new window installs, the guys who show up and pipe in foam and said that its not good (insulation on top of insulation) . I forget what exactly was so bad about it all, but if a house can't breathe... I'll hang-up and listen.

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12 minutes ago, Dewey said:

Its been more than a few years,  and I dont recall much of the conversation,  but had a homeowner wanting to go crazy with insulation and the pro told them to stop, because at a certain point, there is such a thing as too much, that your house needs to breathe. He went on about the new window installs, the guys who show up and pipe in foam and said that its not good (insulation on top of insulation) . I forget what exactly was so bad about it all, but if a house can't breathe... I'll hang-up and listen.

Yes, theoretically a home (specifically the attic) can be over-insulated.   Trapped moisture is the problem.   Insulate per recommended R value guidelines and be happy.  Over insulator types (like all over-doers)  that just have to have an R value = 11ty billion are just wasting money because they are long past the point of diminishing returns and the money spent will never be recouped through energy savings. 

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Well, theoretically every time we do a ceiling or wall repair (like is happening now on a Blanco job) & I have leftover batts (R13, R19 as most common) that I don't want to try & store in my hay shed, I could lay them out somewhere in the attic & "add to the Pirate" (more RRRRRRRR's).

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