Jump to content

Last Jedi Was So Bad I Only Saw It Twice


Eskimohorn

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

A few years after ESB came out, we had a decent snowfall. The kids re-enacted the hell out of the Hoth battle. Those of us who were younger were organized into soon-to-be dead rebels in snow trenches. There was much love for it. 

I was a young kid in Chicago when Empire was released.  I spent a shit ton of winter outside in my yard, building rebel Hoth bases and trenches out of snow and ice.  It was an obsession.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

who they don't even find, but they found another guy that is ALSO a magical codebreaker by pure fucking chance. that's was idiocy of the highest order. the casino sequence might have worked if it was truly a prison break, and they toned down some of the "these people got rich supporting both sides" crap.;

No, it’s idiocy of the First Order.   

 

Ill see my way out 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

this is what i don't understand. they could have gone in any number of directions, and i don't even have a problem with han and leia's happy ending ruined by a shit son. the characters in TFA are all alright, except snoke, who has a fucking stupid name and apparently a non-crucial premise for even existing. how do they not write out the while fucking story from the beginning in at least outline/storyboard mode?

it would have been so easy to reframe the story with the empire being the new rebellion. instead, we get a "first order," which is the empire that's not the empire. they should not have been more powerful than the new republic (which they annihilate without really too much thought or care as story-tellers), but instead the remnants of the old empire that just won't die and actually uses terrorist tactics. i know that cuts close to the zahn premise, but that's because THAT ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE.

and the whole snoke thing still kind of pisses me off. i don't mind that he gets killed by his own apprentice, actually.  but i have to know who he is, where he came from, and how he came to power in order to give any kind of a shit about his death.

Edited by Bateshorn
I missed your Zahn reference.
Link to comment
Share on other sites



it would have been far easier and better to introduce a spy onboard arc or spy hacker having put a virus somewhere within their computer systems to explain how the New Order was able to track them.  It would have built a more interesting narrative and amped up the intensity of a rather boring space chase story.  Finding a spy or spies and then trying to solve the issue would have been far more interesting, IMO.  But instead, we get unexplained tech and trying to find magical codebreakers.... one who happens to be in a prison on a far off planet.
 


Battlestar Galactica says, "hi"
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As someone who liked TLJ, minus the Casino plot, I'm really of the opinion that the sequel trilogy never should've been created. I'd much rather have Solo and Rogue One or something not involving any Jedi/Sith or just a straight non-Skywalker trilogy. The OT is so iconic that anything after is invariably a rehash of the OT or a merger of multiple OT movies. I hate that ROTJ happy ending is gone. It's so boringly the same with any new reboot/sequel that's it's almost a Hollywood formula. Movie ended happy, fast forward a few years and everything is terrible again. See the new Mary Poppins where Michael is not happy and MP has to return to show him the way, the Christopher Robbins movie where he's an unhappy worker who can't spend much time with his family. At least in those, you know things will get better. With this ST, things just keep on sucking. There is very little hope which I think is emblematic of the times we live in. 

I'll still say TFA disappoints because it's filled with JJ dangling plot points that Rian either had to directly address or destroy because JJ chose to just leave it hanging up there. JJ could've told us who Snoke was, given a better clue about Rey's parents (think GOTG talking about Quill's Dad at the end), and done more to flesh out where the First Order came from. I think it was set up to be a terrible trilogy from the start because JJ set up this massive Empire like group instead of just having remnants of the old Empire return or some combo of the Empire and a new threat. To me, the saving grace for these movies are Kylo and Rey because they may be the only enjoyable/interesting storylines. Finn could've been a great addition, instead he's almost a farce like a human C3PO. Poe is good but not given enough to do. I don't mind the Luke part other than Rian taking it way too far with Luke almost being just a dick. I do take some solace knowing Lucas had the exact same idea except he softened Luke a bit and made him help Rey/Kira much more quickly. Han was dying regardless. Harrison Ford was very specific in his desire to kill off Han for a greater purpose ever since ROTJ. That said, it's really a crime that we never got the original 3 back together on screen. Even for a moment. 

Saw someone point out something on Reddit that might give me some hope about the final movie. A New Hope served as a great stand alone story and then the sequels were more paired up stories than the original SW. The thought is this is exactly the reverse with TFA and TLJ. They are the paired story and maybe the final one being set some time after TLJ will allow for a fresh, new story to be created. And given Rian killed off Snoke means it's not a rehash of ROTJ where Rey has to battle Snoke for Kylo's soul. Instead it can just be the two of them fighting it out. 

Part of me wants to rewatch TLJ again to see if I'm just wrong to think it was good given so many seem to have hated it. But honestly, I'd rather watch Rogue One or Solo again. The new trilogy is just kind of a beating to watch. That said, the fan base is pretty awful now. I didn't like the Rose storyline because it could've been handled a lot better. But for people to go after the actress non-stop is just sad. It's not like she's going away. Or Kathleen Kennedy. It's to the point of being so ridiculously over the top negative that Lucasfilm shouldn't give in to these keyboard terrorists. You can't wade through a single Facebook Star Wars post without 50 of 60 comments being these dicks saying shit about KK, Rose, or Rian and this is on innocuous non-TLJ posts. I get hating a movie or a character but christ, get a life. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was always into the idea of making something based loosely on the Knights of the Old Republic plot, or at least in that time frame (3,000 years before ANH) so that it's so far in the past that it can't really be considered a prequel. Keep the Sith v. Jedi framework because that's what Star Wars is all about and just have new characters and stories. Disney knows best I guess. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, crackamacgowski said:

I was always into the idea of making something based loosely on the Knights of the Old Republic plot, or at least in that time frame (3,000 years before ANH) so that it's so far in the past that it can't really be considered a prequel. Keep the Sith v. Jedi framework because that's what Star Wars is all about and just have new characters and stories. Disney knows best I guess. 

That's my hope for either the GOT producers movies or the Rian Johnson trilogy. Something set outside the time of Skywalkers. Where Disney erred is not having one vision for the entire new trilogy. It should've been Kasdan, Rian or JJ writing the whole thing and not skipping from writer to writer to writer. The OT had different directors and screen writers but it was all falling in under Lucas' vision and overall hand. Kasdan cleaned up Lucas' ideas and fleshed out the characters better. Instead we just got a mess where movies cancel out each other. I think Rian could write a good Star Wars trilogy if he's not bound by the conventions of the last trilogy which he seems to want to break. 

Edited by mdmost
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kevwun said:

I would be more optimistic about the 3rd movie if JJ weren't directing it.  Not real psyched about how he ends the mess he created and Rian Johnson made worse.

It's hard to say who hurt Star Wars worse - JJ for completely destroying the happy ending of ROTJ, and creating a shitty existence for Luke, Leia, Han, C3P0, R2, Chewie, and the Rebellion in general, or Lucas for creating the prequels and giving us the whiny little bitch that Little Orphan Anni turned out to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mdmost said:

To me, the saving grace for these movies are Kylo and Rey because they may be the only enjoyable/interesting storylines. Finn could've been a great addition, instead he's almost a farce like a human C3PO. Poe is good but not given enough to do. I don't mind the Luke part other than Rian taking it way too far with Luke almost being just a dick. I do take some solace knowing Lucas had the exact same idea except he softened Luke a bit and made him help Rey/Kira much more quickly. Han was dying regardless. Harrison Ford was very specific in his desire to kill off Han for a greater purpose ever since ROTJ. That said, it's really a crime that we never got the original 3 back together on screen. Even for a moment. 

Poe could have been great had he been more along the lines of Cassian Andor from Rogue One, paired up with Laura Dern's character (basically doing the dirty work for her).  We know dirty work had to be done, desperate times call for desperate measures, and all of that.

Quote

 The new trilogy is just kind of a beating to watch. That said, the fan base is pretty awful now. I didn't like the Rose storyline because it could've been handled a lot better. But for people to go after the actress non-stop is just sad. It's not like she's going away. Or Kathleen Kennedy. It's to the point of being so ridiculously over the top negative that Lucasfilm shouldn't give in to these keyboard terrorists. You can't wade through a single Facebook Star Wars post without 50 of 60 comments being these dicks saying shit about KK, Rose, or Rian and this is on innocuous non-TLJ posts. I get hating a movie or a character but christ, get a life. 

Keep in mind that some, possibly even most, of the Rose hate is not from the Star Wars community - there is a fairly substantial presence of online keyboard warriors who fucking loathe the idea of women in their action movies.  They weren't old enough to be pissed off that Leia seemed to have her shit together as much, if not more than Luke and Han.  They may not have been old enough to remember Padme being the same.  These are the same types of people lost their shit when Starbuck became "Stardoe" in the Battlestar Galactica reimagining, except they are more organized, and more emboldened to attack people online.

I've been to plenty of comic-con/sci-fi conventions, even a Star Wars celebration, and the Star Wars fanbase that I see there, the ones who are spending lots of money to dress up, travel, collect everything, etc. are dressed up as all kinds of characters, including the ones we hate, and I see plenty of families, plenty of women.  These are not the people out there spending out hours typing up manifestos about why Rose sucks.  These are the people who are making the sequel trilogy a financial success, even if a lot of us grumble about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/6/2018 at 3:32 PM, longhornmatt said:

Speaking of Marvel, I’m curious why they thought they needed to copy Marvel’s comedic tone by introducing the concept of prank phone calls into Star Wars, and do it in the middle of a battle in which everyone pauses fighting to take the call and let it play out, no less.  And then immediately follow that tension killing sequence with the heroic death scene that is supposed to be gripping an emotional.

That was the very beginning of the movie, and it did not set the tone well.

This.  That scene was more Spaceballs and less Star Wars.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, longhornmatt said:

Although you’re right that TFA destroyed the happily ever after ending of RTOJ, any movie that continued the Skywalker story would have had to do that to some extent.  And TFA itself wasn’t a downer at all to me (it was pretty exciting/upbeat overall). Yes, Han Solo had an evil child who killed him - but for the most part the story was, “Han Solo continued to be Han Solo and ended up having adventures with Chewie again after RTOJ.”  I can deal with that.  It might have been weirder to see Han all domesticated.

But in the TLJ when it was Luke’s turn to be under the microscope, they turned him into a completely different person that rejected everything about his original character.  Then they only redeemed him at the very end in an unsatisfying way.  That ruined RTOJ, and the OT in general, much worse than showing that bad things continued to happen in the universe in TFA.

A part of me does not want to completely blame JJ for destroying the happy ending of ROTJ.  Harrison doesn't come back unless they kill him off. He made that clear, and I remember him bitching that Han should have died in ROTJ to add gravitas to the film (and it would have been great).    Their hands were tied earlier on with TFA, because they have to give him a death scene.

If some random Tie pilot kills him, the fans are pissed.  If he gets a disease or has an accident, the fans are pissed.  To kill off somebody of his stature requires him to have a "significant" death.

It would never have happened, but if a rathtar had busted through the floor and killed him in one gulp, while the others escaped, it would have been so fucking awesome to have been in the theaters and experience the crowd reaction.

But no, he's got to have a significant death.  Hey, he and the Princess hooked up.  What if they had a kid named Ben like umpteen-billion EU novels envisioned.  Hey, his kid would have the force, so that means Luke would have trained him.  Hmmm, we want to give him a significant death.  Grandson of Darth Vader....Han would be the type of person to try and redeem his son...we can see where this is going, but now we have roped in Leia and Luke into a shitty miserable experience, because for his son to have killed him, that means he would have left Luke's training, and that would destroy Luke because he wanted to rebuild the Jedi and atone for what his father did, and he would have failed not only his nephew, but his twin sister (and arguably his dad).  Oh, and Chewie will now be torn in wanting to avenge his best friend, but that involves killing his best friend's son.

So yeah, Harrison gets some blame for wanting Han to die so quickly.

Here's where JJ comes in.  If Han has to die, Han Solo should have been in place of Laura Dern's character in TLJ (move that section of TLJ into TFA), and we should have had something in TFA other than another story about a Skywalker going bad.  It would have preserved the happy ending of ROTJ, and Han would have gotten an awesome and significant death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

This.  That scene was more Spaceballs and less Star Wars.  

And the bad/sad part was that the rest of the scene wasn't that bad - the bombing run was a nice little homage to Lucas's love of WWII movies, and the genesis of the trench scene in ANH.  People bitched about the bombs "falling" while ignoring the fact that the fighters in all the other movies flew like airplanes in an atmosphere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, atomheartbevo said:

And the bad/sad part was that the rest of the scene wasn't that bad - the bombing run was a nice little homage to Lucas's love of WWII movies, and the genesis of the trench scene in ANH.  People bitched about the bombs "falling" while ignoring the fact that the fighters in all the other movies flew like airplanes in an atmosphere.

I bitched pretty bad that the bombers move about 2 MPH and have to get directly over their target to drop the bombs.  That's pretty fucking stupid.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

I bitched pretty bad that the bombers move about 2 MPH and have to get directly over their target to drop the bombs.  That's pretty fucking stupid.  

well, the rest of the goddamned movie was a 2 mph chase scene.  

i'm amazed that no one raised his hand during the writing, reading, acting, directing, or editing and said, holy shit, the script and movie are fucking atrocious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well when the only person above the director thinks the bad ideas are also great, pointing out the obvious would probably have gotten you fired.  The 2 directiors and Kennedy all sucked at their jobs for different reasons.  Kennedy signed off on making a trilogy without a firm outline of the story, JJ came up with a shitty idea on where to start things off and Rian Johnson decided everything about Star Wars before his movie was bad and you should feel bad about liking it.

Edited by kevwun
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I chuckle at the idea that some of these trolls have that Lucas would've given us a better sequel trilogy. This is an excerpt from a book about Sci Fi with James Cameron. Lucas is interviewed. He was going to take the midichlorian idea to the next, terrible level.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The OT shifted from Lucas writing and directing the first Star Wars to Executive Producing/World Building. Lucas built the story with Leigh Brackett before she died in 1978. He then wrote a 2nd draft which had Vader as Luke's father. Kasdan was brought in after he wrote the script for Raiders and then cleaned up the script. Irvin Kershner was brought in to direct and he, Kasdan and Gary Kurtz rewrote the script to be more adult. Lucas then shifted more to doing things with ILM and all the other stuff he was doing with Lucasfilm. Lucas also set out the story for Jedi with Kasdan writing the script.  Howard Kazanjian replaced Kurtz as producer for Jedi. Lucas seemed to have a lot more influence on the story for Jedi which probably explains more of the kid like quality of it. 

Back to Empire, the original script by Leigh Brackett is online and it's not very good. I think Yoda's name was Minch and it was kind of a mess. 

 http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/251045/star-wars-leigh-brackett-and-the-empire-strikes-back-you-never-saw

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, kevwun said:

That is breathtakingly terrible idea.  I swear George Lucas stole the script for Star Wars from someone. 

It worked partly because he was paying homage to several movies/genres, so he didn’t have time to dig into the technical details, and so it was focused on characters.  Also, the ending multiplier effect hadn’t kicked in  

The prequels were what happened when he had a) total control, b) too much time on his hands, and c) the genius idea that he had to explain things in great detail (ala Star Trek) whether it be the Force or galactic taxation. This is a problem when he’s making a movie for 8 year-olds. 

Same thing happened in the last Indy movie.  Too many details on the screen.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The prequels at least had a cohesive vision. He knew where he was going. It just was terrible along the way because Rick McCallum is not Gary Kurtz. The sequel trilogy doesn't seem to have been created with an idea of where it will be headed. Each writer director is free to pick it up as they see fit. It wouldn't shock me to see JJ undo some of what Rian did just as Rian did to him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Red Five said:

Maybe the opening crawl to 9 can be “Rey has just woken up from her fever dream, and is now on her way to meet Luke Skywalker...”

LOL..... Yea, I kinda wish they'd ignore or "reset" the franchise and what RJ did to it like the way Singer came back to X-men and was like..... yea you know all that shit Ratner did to the story and characters in Last Stand?  Yea, fuck that..... it's gone.

And while there were multiple issues with Abrams' episode 7, he left the story open enough to fully realize a great next step and story.  It's simply the great majority of the choices Johnson made with these plot points were poor and misguided.  Johnson isn't some victim who had to try and salvage a story arc of someone else's design, he was very instrumental in his own issues and seemingly wanted and pushed for these poor choices.   He reportedly wanted something most SW fans didn't like.... It happens.  It's a shame he didn't have a sounding board to steer him towards a better track, but shit happens.

Edited by Patrick Bateman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Red Five said:

Maybe the opening crawl to 9 can be “Rey has just woken up from her fever dream, and is now on her way to meet Luke Skywalker...”

“Rey woke up hungry, after another miserable night on Jakku. After she relieved herself, she drank what little water had accumulated overnight. She carefully took out her most prized possession, and prepared herself for another day of staring into it intensely. Day after day, she imagined her parents working on the medical frigate depicted within the snow holocron...”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You really have to wonder the massive delusion that goes through the head of that person. First off, you have to get the money. Second, you have to get Disney to even return your phone call. Third, you have to convince them to redo a movie that already made over a billion dollars. Fourth, you have to get all the actors to agree to reshoot the movie. Fifth, you have to get distributors to actually sign up to screen a fan made movie in their theaters. 


Sweet Lord, it's just a movie. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a problem not just with Star Wars but with literally every media, from Star Wars to Game of Thrones. Fans become so wrapped up in a thing that they believe they own it and woe be to anyone who dares to do something with the thing they love. Society just can't handle this shit anymore and everything either has to be some kind of puzzle that the audience can pat themselves on the back for solving or bullshit nostalgia vomit. But don't you dare take something that spoke to  me and make it speak to someone who isn't me.

 The internet promised to connect us to people who liked what we liked and give a voice to everyone, the problem is most people just don't have a voice so they latch on to the loudest and most obnoxious noise they hear. TLJ made 1.3 billion dollars and was universally hailed by critics and yet we're supposed to believe no one liked it and its the worst movie ever made in the Star Wars franchise. The movie had problems and plot holes and ridiculous story lines , like every fucking Star Wars movie ever made. But for some reason this is the one that outrages people and you have to stop and wonder why that is and what it says about us. Or don't and just whine how they ruined your childhood.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

Some loved the bold liberties of writer-director Rian Johnson. They understood that there was room under that big tent for characters like Vice Admiral Holdo (Laura Dern) and Rose Tico (Kelly Marie Tran), women placed alongside Carrie Fisher’s Leia and Ridley’s Rey at the center of the Star Wars drama.

But others hated it. Hated everything it stood for. Hated what they saw as a social justice warrior remix of the Star Wars they grew up with. And they hated Tran’s Rose most of all because they decided that she was the avatar for all that was wrong with the franchise. Those fans — a minority but a loud one — found their “them” in the very thing they used to love.

Quote

All of this raises the question: What exactly do Star Wars fans want? For so long, all they were asking for was more.

 

Quote

What is Star Wars fandom against? Turns out, the answer: itself. Or, rather, the realization that Star Wars is and always has been for children, and they aren’t children any more. Star Wars fans — I count myself among them — look to the original trilogy as an anchor of youth. They want anything Star Wars to make them feel the way they did when they saw “a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away …” roll across the screen 40 years ago.

No diehard fan wants to imagine himself as old Luke Skywalker, hiding on an island from everything new, anything that might shake his steadfast belief in how the world is supposed to be. But if you saw the original Star Wars in the theater, that’s who you are, unless you find a way to open yourself to heroes designed to hook a new generation while still resonating with yours. Those who haven’t are lashing out at everything that reminds them that they’re no longer young Luke, staring off into the horizon of a future still dawning, like twin suns.

 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/solo-box-office-results-kelly-marie-tran-harassment-show-star-wars-has-a-fan-problem-1118898

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Im not a stars wars fan and i can recognize TLJ is shit, Holdo is shit, the Intergalactic Monte Carlo casino goosechase was shit, the 5 knot slowmo battleship chase is shit

Exactly. It's super annoying (and predictable) that the backlash to the backlash of TLJ paints all the "haters" as loser fanbois who didn't like all the women and politics and what they did to their favorite characters; thus, moving the conversation away from the simple fact that Disney made a terribly written, questionably edited, mostly boring, exceptionally dumb (even in the Star Wars pantheon) movie.

Admittedly, dipshits trying to fund a remake are too easy of a target to not attack.

Edited by aggie08
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...