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2020 General MLB off-season


Mo Horn

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If Manfred wasn't going to vacate the 2017 World Series (He should have taken that drastic step) he should've gone further with the loss of draft picks and frozen them out of international signings for at a minimum of three years. 

I could not care less what organization had to be the one to take a more drastic penalty. I just do not believe this punishment will deter anyone wanting to cheat. You vacate titles and then we've got something major. Hopefully Cora gets a banhammer of at least three years.

And Carlos Beltran should not be allowed to skate on this. That worthless fuck should be banned from the game for at least three years. Then again managing in Flushing with the shitbag Long Islanders in the Wilpons being your bosses is its own special punishment.

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2 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

If Manfred wasn't going to vacate the 2017 World Series (He should have taken that drastic step) he should've gone further with the loss of draft picks and frozen them out of international signings for at a minimum of three years. 

I could not care less what organization had to be the one to take a more drastic penalty. I just do not believe this punishment will deter anyone wanting to cheat. You vacate titles and then we've got something major. Hopefully Cora gets a banhammer of at least three years.

And Carlos Beltran should not be allowed to skate on this. That worthless fuck should be banned from the game for at least three years. Then again managing in Flushing with the shitbag Long Islanders in the Wilpons being your bosses is its own special punishment.

It's a tainted title now anyway

Edited by immortal13
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9 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

It's a tainted title now anyway

I mean it is. The hardcore fans of the sport will definitely look at it like that and realize this title has an asterisk. The Sox title from the very next season will have that amongst the hardcore fans. I work with a hardcore Mets fan who just loves the sport overall. He feels pretty strongly that MLB needed to do more. He said it hurts him to see baseball take a black eye like this.The casual fan will likely not give a damn about this punishment. 

Edited by UpperWestside
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3 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

I mean it is. The hardcore fans of the sport will definitely look at it like that and realize this title has an asterisk. The Sox title from the very next season will have that amongst the hardcore fans. I work with a hardcore Mets fan who just loves the sport overall. He feels pretty strongly that MLB needed to do more. He said it hurts him to see baseball take a black eye like this.The casual fan will likely not give a damn about this punishment. 

They should've learned their lesson over the steroid scandal back in the 90's but they didn't 

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1 minute ago, immortal13 said:

They should've learned their lesson over the steroid scandal back in the 90's but they didn't 

It's baseball. It's filthy. It always has been. It always will be.

MLB isn't going to pick too deeply at this particular scab. 

The Astros got dinged a little for show and now we all move on to the next scandal.

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1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Sure doesn't feel like it. 

It is, but again the sport is made up of mostly casual fans so it just blows over because of that. If baseball were still the actual National Pastime and this was the judgment handed down then Manfred would be out of a job tomorrow. Since baseball is just third on the depth chart of sports in our country none of this ridiculously light punishment matters. Slap on the wrist and does nothing to deter further cheating.

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7 minutes ago, UpperWestside said:

It is, but again the sport is made up of mostly casual fans so it just blows over because of that. If baseball were still the actual National Pastime and this was the judgment handed down then Manfred would be out of a job tomorrow. Since baseball is just third on the depth chart of sports in our country none of this ridiculously light punishment matters. Slap on the wrist and does nothing to deter further cheating.

So like football and its harsh penalties for, oh, let's say, the New England Patriots?

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Just now, David Dennison said:

So like football and its harsh penalties for, oh, let's say, the New England Patriots?

I watch New England because of Brady. That is pretty much it. I had a team for a very long time, but I decided to just enjoy watching football so I watched him beginning a few years ago. I know you love the gotcha moments, but not so much here. Your team cheated its way to a title and got off fairly unscathed. 

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Just now, David Dennison said:

So like football and its harsh penalties for, oh, let's say, the New England Patriots?

I watch New England because of Brady. That is pretty much it. I had a team for a very long time, but I decided to just enjoy watching football so I watched him beginning a few years ago. I know you love the gotcha moments, but not so much here. Your team cheated its way to a title and got off fairly unscathed. 

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Just now, UpperWestside said:

I watch New England because of Brady. That is pretty much it. I had a team for a very long time, but I decided to just enjoy watching football so I watched him beginning a few years ago. I know you love the gotcha moments, but not so much here. Your team cheated its way to a title and got off fairly unscathed. 

And if the cheating that was done was the age old offense of sign stealing, I'm OK with the punishment.

After all, it's just sign stealing. There aren't many things that are as much a part of the game as sign stealing.

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6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And if the cheating that was done was the age old offense of sign stealing, I'm OK with the punishment.

After all, it's just sign stealing. There aren't many things that are as much a part of the game as sign stealing.

When you use technology to cheat you crossed a line. A guy standing at 2nd relaying things is part of the game. Using a centerfield camera and sending a feed to a hallway and then using trashcans or whatever the hell they did to tell batters what pitch they would see is a ridiculous amount of cheating. If I remember right the Astros title DVD actually had some accidental footage of the hallway setup in it of how they cheated.

The only Astros title you witnessed thus far in your lifetime came because of cheating. Kinda sad to be honest that they resorted to that.

Edited by UpperWestside
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1 hour ago, UpperWestside said:

When you use technology to cheat you crossed a line. A guy standing at 2nd relaying things is part of the game. Using a centerfield camera and sending a feed to a hallway and then using trashcans or whatever the hell they did to tell batters what pitch they would see is a ridiculous amount of cheating. If I remember right the Astros title DVD actually had some accidental footage of the hallway setup in it of how they cheated.

The only Astros title you witnessed thus far in your lifetime came because of cheating. Kinda sad to be honest that they resorted to that.

And I'm fine with that.

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Astros snitched more than Fiers apparently:

Quote

Two sources familiar with the investigation, which lasted three months and included more than 70,000 e-mails and 60 interviews, said various Astros personnel told MLB investigators about eight other teams who used technology to steal signs in 2017 or 2018

 

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12 hours ago, ss13 said:

But does anyone besides the hardcore Pats-haters still care about it? No. 

The Pats winning 3 Super Bowls post-Deflategate certainly helped the casual fan realize that its importance was way overblown.

We'll see how Houston does going forward.

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Leaving this here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/mlb/sign-stealing-in-the-world-series-the-nationals-had-a-plan-just-in-case/2019/11/13/f8bdce7a-0640-11ea-8292-c46ee8cb3dce_story.html

There were some layers to the Nats’ plan for Houston. First, each pitcher had to have his own set of signs, and catchers Yan Gomes and Kurt Suzuki had to be familiar with each one. So the staff printed out cards with the codes and had them laminated. The catchers could have them in their wristbands, a la an NFL quarterback with play calls strapped to his forearm, and the pitchers would have them in their caps. Each pitcher had five sets of signs, and they could change them from game to game — or even batter to batter, if necessary. Using the set labeled No. 2, but worried the Astros were catching on? The pitcher could signal to the catcher to move to set No. 3.

 

The Nationals also decided that they would use multiple signs regardless of whether there was a runner on second base or not. No one on? Runner on first? Let’s make sure the catcher runs through a series of signs anyway, just in case.

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4 hours ago, aggie08 said:

The Pats winning 3 Super Bowls post-Deflategate certainly helped the casual fan realize that its importance was way overblown.

We'll see how Houston does going forward.

It wasn't even just Deflategate, it was Spygate they did in their first stint of their dynasty early in the 2000s. the filming of walk throughs and other stuff. People will still bring that up and discredit all of those rings. Spygate was first. Deflategate was in their second stint of their dynasty. Add it all up and so many scoff at their titles. And it doesn't help that the Pats got caught filming again this season. So then some will say did it ever really go away in New England? I for one think its overblown to a certain extent but fans around the league will never let it go with the Pats. 

 

Although what does that mean in the long run? Nothing. Titles are still in the record books and they all have their rings and the games stand as is on the field. Just like here in Houston and Boston. Fans can bitch and moan and discredit them but they are there in the record books. Barry Bonds even after that scandal is still the HR king in terms of the MLB record books. Many fans don't acknowledge him but they aren't the ones who make the decision on the official records.

 

Edited by Vic Mackey
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12 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Barry Bonds even after that scandal is still the HR king in terms of the MLB record books. Many fans don't acknowledge him but they aren't the ones who make the decision on the official records.

Sports success is an odd mixture of officially recognized titles/records and public perception. The record books can say whatever the leagues officially mandate, but if the fans hold an overwhelmingly different opinion, there will always be an unofficial asterisk next to it. Bonds is the perfect example of this.

The 2017 Astros WS title definitely has an asterisk to it right now. Whether or not that will still be the case in 10 years, time will tell.

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13 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

Sports success is an odd mixture of officially recognized titles/records and public perception. The record books can say whatever the leagues officially mandate, but if the fans hold an overwhelmingly different opinion, there will always be an unofficial asterisk next to it. Bonds is the perfect example of this.

The 2017 Astros WS title definitely has an asterisk to it right now. Whether or not that will still be the case in 10 years, time will tell.

it always should. they cheated using technology on the road to a title. they should have vacated that title, imo. same with boston. baseball never learns.

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37 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it always should. they cheated using technology on the road to a title. they should have vacated that title, imo. same with boston. baseball never learns.

And a whole bunch of players and teams cheated using performance enhancing drugs on the road to titles. Should we vacate those, too?

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2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And a whole bunch of players and teams cheated using performance enhancing drugs on the road to titles. Should we vacate those, too?

This is quite a bit different with the whole team participating, the manager knowing, and actual surveillance equipment installed and used for that express purpose. Houston should feel lucky the title was not stripped from them. A strong case can be made that it should be

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Serious question -- what does "vacate the title" even mean?  Everyone saw them win it on the field.  Astros fans celebrated and they bought T-shirts and shit.  You can't take that stuff away.  So you take it out of the "official records."  So what?  No one looks at the "official records."  Can you make baseball-reference.com expunge it?  Doubtful.  You can't wipe the internet of all the columns written about the 2017 series.  You can't make everyone turn in their T-shirts, hats, and bobbleheads.  So what does "vacating the title" actually do?

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7 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

This is quite a bit different with the whole team participating, the manager knowing, and actual surveillance equipment installed and used for that express purpose. Houston should feel lucky the title was not stripped from them. A strong case can be made that it should be

It's no different. Everyone knew about it. Cheating is part of the game. That's why there's never going to be a penalty that will deter it. It's in the culture of the sport and always has been.

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15 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's no different. Everyone knew about it. Cheating is part of the game. That's why there's never going to be a penalty that will deter it. It's in the culture of the sport and always has been.

Individual doping vs. an organized cheating scheme by the whole team/manager is not the same thing.

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42 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Individual doping vs. an organized cheating scheme by the whole team/manager is not the same thing.

What if team trainers were involved? What if managers and GMs and owners all knew what was happening? And sportswriters, and the commissioner, etc. Come on, everyone knew and everyone was complicit. Everyone acknowledges this at this point.

The Astros broke the rule and they got punished - that's fine. And the punishment was hardly light...it was pretty severe. Other teams broke the rule too, and we'll see what happens.

Many will dismiss the accomplishments of Astros players in 2017, despite evidence that suggests that their scheme didn't really seem to result in any noticeable improvement, because it is the narrative they crave. That's fine. 

 

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