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2 dead in thwarted mass shooting attempt at Fort Worth area church that was live streaming on YouTube


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13 minutes ago, Cajun said:

The shooter was having to "notice" others brandishing weapons.

Ex LEO's opportunity was aided by the fact that he wasn't the only one in the room packin'.

Well the only guy he "noticed" brandishing a weapon he shot dead first.  Unfortunately that didn't help Zepol's friend who was just passing around the communion plate, so I guess you're right?

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4 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

No doubt this is true for some of them.

That said, it seems to me that the video shows at least a couple of parishoners not exactly being careful with their drawn weapons.  Would you agree?

Waving them around just like most cops? Maybe, but apparently they did not shoot anybody.

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22 minutes ago, Cajun said:

The shooter was having to "notice" others brandishing weapons.

Ex LEO's opportunity was aided by the fact that he wasn't the only one in the room packin'.

Still, you’d think it’d be easy to notice the only guy in what appears to be a security uniform. He was in the church for several minutes before firing, he had to have known he was right there. He was right next to the first dude shot, if the shooter had fired his 2nd shot at ex LEO instead of tray man he likely would’ve been able to do some more damage. 

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4 hours ago, Armybrat said:

Some of those “old dudes” most likely have more training and range time than your average cop..... and many may be ex-military.

It is a false assumption on the public’s part that most cops are highly trained gun guys, when that just isn’t the case for many of them. There are too many anecdotes of “highly trained” cops shooting innocent bystanders and/or spraying bullets everywhere without effect on the bad guys.

I know plenty of people, many retired "old dudes" and their bridge-playing wives who spend as much or more time on the range than the typical avid golfer spends with his clubs.  Your average person doesn't realize that some of these folks send more pills down range in month (every month) than the average cop does over a period of years.

One never knows how someone is going to react in a crisis, but I can think of plenty of folks (women included) that I'd rather have come to my defense in a situation like this than the average LEO, if for no other reason than the muscle memory.

 

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17 hours ago, Cajun said:

He wanted numbers, he was unsuccessful and he knew it.

He also wanted to get away, which is why he was wearing disguise.

Maybe.  He could have wanted to wear a disguise to not be recognized by members of the church and/or his specific target.  Having a specific target that the disguise was used to get close to would also explain why he didn't shoot more when he clearly could have before that 3rd shot that stopped him *shrugs*.

No idea if any of that is true, just saying all we can really do is speculate.

Edit:  'Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton said on Monday that his understanding was that Kinnunen was a “more of a loner,” and that he had attended the Church of Christ several times before and was welcomed in with open arms prior to Sunday’s shooting.'

From https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/keith-thomas-kinnunen/

Edited by Goredho
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44 minutes ago, Goredho said:

Maybe.  He could have wanted to wear a disguise to not be recognized by members of the church and/or his specific target.  Having a specific target that the disguise was used to get close to would also explain why he didn't shoot more when he clearly could have before that 3rd shot that stopped him *shrugs*.

No idea if any of that is true, just saying all we can really do is speculate.

Edit:  'Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton said on Monday that his understanding was that Kinnunen was a “more of a loner,” and that he had attended the Church of Christ several times before and was welcomed in with open arms prior to Sunday’s shooting.'

From https://heavy.com/news/2019/12/keith-thomas-kinnunen/

Yeah except that's not what happened 

 

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After watching it a few more times

It does kind of look like the shooter shot himself in the head while turning to run.

This incompetent most likely had his finger on the trigger when he bumped into the wall. Then blammo through the chin and top of his skull.

 

 

Edited by MissingInAction
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On 12/29/2019 at 5:23 PM, Trey3216 said:

I’ll say this about my church:

1) everyone on our security team is either current or former military/LEO, or has been around weapons their entire life and is licensed to carry, but also knows how to read people and deflect situations.  
 

2) Our congregation doesn’t fully know, but expects that some of us are indeed carrying, so they’re not uncomfortable around us but also not fully comfortable/content because they don’t know who is where.  
 

we have some as foyer greeters, some spread throughout the congregation, and some in other areas.  It works 

The church I went to in Houston has a huge sign prohibiting people from conceal carrying. Armed parishioners at that church stopped the shooter cold. It’s an inconvenient truth that will never be acknowledged by those in charge and the policy still won’t change.

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The church I went to in Houston has a huge sign prohibiting people from conceal carrying. Armed parishioners at that church stopped the shooter cold. It’s an inconvenient truth that will never be acknowledged by those in charge and the policy still won’t change.

It’s a good thing we aren’t making CR posts in here. Right,@blacklab?

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The Catholic Church I attend has 30.06 and 30.07 signs posted in the bulletin.  I am not sure if those are legal or not.  I would venture to say they are not.  However, the church is also a school so...

 

Usually also has an armed policeman too.  Though he is not at every mass.

Why wouldn’t they be legal?

 

IIRC they’d need to post signs to be effective. Not sure what publishing in a bulletin does other than remind/reinforce the policy.

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19 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:


I imagine that some church leaders will rethink their policies based on this.

As an Episcopalian, I’m fairly confident my parish won’t.

I’m in the same denomination. The leadership of our church will not support carrying regardless of what happens

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14 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

The Catholic Church I attend has 30.06 and 30.07 signs posted in the bulletin.  I am not sure if those are legal or not.  I would venture to say they are not.  However, the church is also a school so...
 

Usually also has an armed policeman too.  Though he is not at every mass.

They’re legal and the church and any private property open to the public can put up those signs to prevent conceal carry. I have zero issues with that as someone who believes in the sanctity of private property rights and being the master of your domain.

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17 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Why wouldn’t they be legal?

 

IIRC they’d need to post signs to be effective. Not sure what publishing in a bulletin does other than remind/reinforce the policy.

It looks like they are legal in doing some research.  However, I think a good lawyer could get you off the hook.  The language is written and provided at the entrance.  However, it is only provided at one entrance and many people don’t touch the bulletins.  Either way, I’ll be dead if someone decides to take a shot at this church.  My gun will be in my car where it is absolutely useless to me.

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9 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

It looks like they are legal in doing some research.  However, I think a good lawyer could get you off the hook.  The language is written and provided at the entrance.  However, it is only provided at one entrance and many people don’t touch the bulletins.  Either way, I’ll be dead if someone decides to take a shot at this church.  My gun will be in my car where it is absolutely useless to me.

I don't understand.  This isn't the first church shooting in Texas.  You have to know crazy is out there and completely willing to kill.  So you have a gun and still refuse to carry it inside?  Why?  I mean statistically speaking you'll never need it.  Nothing will happen and no one will know you've got it on you unless you narc on yourself but I do not understand how you justify to yourself leaving it in your car knowing that you just might need it and then not have it.  Because there's a sign on the door, saying no?  Your pastor might disapprove if he knew?  Please run down the logic here.

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13 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

It looks like they are legal in doing some research.  However, I think a good lawyer could get you off the hook.  The language is written and provided at the entrance.  However, it is only provided at one entrance and many people don’t touch the bulletins.  Either way, I’ll be dead if someone decides to take a shot at this church.  My gun will be in my car where it is absolutely useless to me.

My gun will be sitting next to me in the pew because 15 years ago I married that gun in that same church in front of God and Jesus Amen. 

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23 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

It looks like they are legal in doing some research.  However, I think a good lawyer could get you off the hook.

My CCL class was taught by a lawyer, 15 years or so ago.  I don’t know if it’s changed, but I remember him specifically saying outside of courthouses and most govt buildings, most all the signs he saw at liquor stores and bars were defensible in court. Something to do with font size, color, etc, and that many would just buy whatever off the net and it wouldn’t meet the requirements.  He absolutely did not recommend carrying in those locations to test it, but did say any competent lawyer could get you out of a jam if the sign wasn’t to spec.   Maybe that’s what that post was about?  I don’t even know if that is/was the case, but dude was a pretty successful defense attorney so I’d tend to believe it.  

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23 minutes ago, TxEx99 said:

I don't understand.  This isn't the first church shooting in Texas.  You have to know crazy is out there and completely willing to kill.  So you have a gun and still refuse to carry it inside?  Why?  I mean statistically speaking you'll never need it.  Nothing will happen and no one will know you've got it on you unless you narc on yourself but I do not understand how you justify to yourself leaving it in your car knowing that you just might need it and then not have it.  Because there's a sign on the door, saying no?  Your pastor might disapprove if he knew?  Please run down the logic here.

So your position is it’s better to 1) rebel and 2) lie in order to potentially 3) kill, in itself a thorny theological problem. 

The logic suggests you might as well spend Sunday at home.

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38 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

My CCL class was taught by a lawyer, 15 years or so ago.  I don’t know if it’s changed, but I remember him specifically saying outside of courthouses and most govt buildings, most all the signs he saw at liquor stores and bars were defensible in court. Something to do with font size, color, etc, and that many would just buy whatever off the net and it wouldn’t meet the requirements.  He absolutely did not recommend carrying in those locations to test it, but did say any competent lawyer could get you out of a jam if the sign wasn’t to spec.   Maybe that’s what that post was about?  I don’t even know if that is/was the case, but dude was a pretty successful defense attorney so I’d tend to believe it.  

I think that guy is in jail for chucking rocks at cars and diddling kids.

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7 hours ago, Helobious said:

Gov Abbot said the same thing and I still don’t get that comment. How many rounds did the gunman have on him? It’s actually pretty easy to figure out roughly how many lives were saved.

if the guy is able to keep shooting then it's entirely possible that multiple parishioners pull out their guns and start shooting as well. no telling what all would go down in that type of chaos. 

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My Anglican church has had some "active shooter training" but also displays those "no concealed carry" signs due to our Diocesan policy (likely driven by an insurance carrier).  Thankfully, we have some former LEO's as parishioners -- they DGAF about what some sign says.  I appreciate all the guys that pack on Sundays.

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12 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

After watching it a few more times

It does kind of look like the shooter shot himself in the head while turning to run.

This incompetent most likely had his finger on the trigger when he bumped into the wall. Then blammo through the chin and top of his skull.

 

 

Maybe, but I'm guessing all those in the media that are not exactly thrilled with the bolstering of a "good guy with a gun" narrative would identify fairly quickly via medial reports and first responder accounts where the terminal shot came from.  If not from the reserve deputy sheriff, then I'm guessing it would already be making the pundit rounds as fresh meat.  We shall see.

It's also worth mentioning (or maybe it already has been) that a reserve deputy sheriff is not a LEO.  It's an antiquated process dating back to the wild west where a lack of resources necessitated deputizing ordinary citizens.  Today, there is no uniform training requirements for them between stations.  Often they have pay for their uniforms and sidearms.  Some officers like them around, most do not (according to a LEO friend of mine) because they are a liability due to their perceived status as a "cop"....but lack of formal training.

This guy was calm, cool, and collected.  I'd wager this is 100% attributed to his time as a firearm instructor.  A skill anyone with a modicum of desire and time can acquire.  

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On 12/29/2019 at 7:16 PM, Johnny Sack said:

If you're going to shoot up a church, you might want to think twice before choosing a Church of Christ in a rural suburb of Fort Worth, Texas.

Calling White Settlement a "rural suburb" of Ft Worth is like calling University Park a rural suburb of Dallas.

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