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NPR story on student loans

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How can the freaking COST of college not be an underlying point when we're talking about loans that are taken out to pay [checks notes] the COST of college?
"Theater majors in debt" (huh, sounds like something I saw on Skinemax back in the late 80s) is a red herring.  It's a ridiculously small slice of the problem.  There is currently $1.41 TRILLION in outstanding student loan debt. Let's presume that "theater majors" make up 5% of all of that debt (and come on, we know that 5% of college grads aren't theater majors).  So, we're still talking about $1.34 trillion in debt, taken out by NON-theater majors.
It's not the cost of theater degrees that's putting people in the hole...it's the cost of ALL DEGREES.  And the student loan amount they need to carry means that you need a HIGH paying job (not a good job, a GREAT job) to get out of the hole before you're old.
Cost is, literally, the underlying problem.

I agree. It’s like when these baby boomers start their stories saying they worked in the summers to pay for school. Well guess what, that’s impossible now a days. When a semester at a state school is 10k, you can’t work three months in the summer to pay for that. Books for a semester probably cost more than what these boomers paid for a semester of college.

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23 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

But the underlying point is....you didn't used to have to up to your eyeballs in debt, for ANY degree.  You could get a UT theater degree and graduate with little or no debt.  People should be able to do that still.

That is a point but not the underlying point to this thread, imo.

The underlying point is don't be a fucking idiot when taking out student loans. Life isn't fair. We all get that. But that doesn't excuse theater majors going into massive debt. 

Where did Lin-Manuel Miranda touch you at?

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8 minutes ago, yoladu said:

We need to produce citizens who can pay $1,000,000 for our houses that trippled in value the last 30 years. Those saddled with massive college debt ain't gonna do it.

my tongue is a bit in my cheek, but yeah..

No, you’re wrong, the real stupid ones in this discussion are the people who didn’t work through all of the math when determining where they wanted to go to school and what to major in when they were 17.

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23 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

What percentage of all outstanding student loan debt do you think is owed by theater majors?

I'm not talking overall policy. I thought I was clear about that, but maybe not. 

In terms of %, low. In terms of % of all debt taken out by students who don't have viable jobs to pay off the debt? Not so low.

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17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

How can the freaking COST of college not be an underlying point when we're talking about loans that are taken out to pay [checks notes] the COST of college?

"Theater majors in debt" (huh, sounds like something I saw on Skinemax back in the late 80s) is a red herring.  It's a ridiculously small slice of the problem.  There is currently $1.41 TRILLION in outstanding student loan debt. Let's presume that "theater majors" make up 5% of all of that debt (and come on, we know that 5% of college grads aren't theater majors).  So, we're still talking about $1.34 trillion in debt, taken out by NON-theater majors.

It's not the cost of theater degrees that's putting people in the hole...it's the cost of ALL DEGREES.  And the student loan amount they need to carry means that you need a HIGH paying job (not a good job, a GREAT job) to get out of the hole before you're old.

Cost is, literally, the underlying problem.

It's an underlying point. It's not the underlying point. 

That's what I thought you said. Maybe not. 

THE underlying point is don't be an idiot when taking out student loans. 

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Just now, sachick said:


I agree. It’s like when these baby boomers start their stories saying they worked in the summers to pay for school. Well guess what, that’s impossible now a days. When a semester at a state school is 10k, you can’t work three months in the summer to pay for that. Books for a semester probably cost more than what these boomers paid for a semester of college.

hell, some Gen X'rs probably could tell that story too.. Tuition at UT was around $600 a semester in the mid to late 80s.

You could bag groceries in the summer for $3.50 an hour and get a year's tuition paid off in 12 weeks.

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3 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

It's an underlying point. It's not the underlying point. 

That's what I thought you said. Maybe not. 

THE underlying point is don't be an idiot when taking out student loans. 

I think THE REAL underlying point is that nobody should need to take out student loans to go to college, regardless of the degree.

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What I get from this thread is that the entire bankruptcy system, tax incentives, and public investment should be eliminated because they encourage/allow people to make bad decisions for which they don't feel the consequences.  

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11 minutes ago, sachick said:


I agree. It’s like when these baby boomers start their stories saying they worked in the summers to pay for school. Well guess what, that’s impossible now a days. When a semester at a state school is 10k, you can’t work three months in the summer to pay for that. Books for a semester probably cost more than what these boomers paid for a semester of college.

and it happened so fucking quickly. i think i barely escaped the rapidly escalating tuition when i graduated in 00. i was part of the last generation to experience affordable state schooling, as well as the very last class admitted before top 10% would all but guarantee i would not be able to attend texas.

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13 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

I'm not talking overall policy. I thought I was clear about that, but maybe not. 

In terms of %, low. In terms of % of all debt taken out by students who don't have viable jobs to pay off the debt? Not so low.

But again....you're missing the point.  COST is the defining element of the AMOUNT OF DEBT.

A college degree has historically produced a bell curve of incomes.  Adjusted for today's values, at the low end, a degree in basketweaving yields an income of $30k, but that's not a big chunk of the jobs college grads are getting.  In the middle of the bell, the bulk of college grad jobs, are $50k-120k.  Then, on the far end of the bell, are the $300k+ jobs.

bell_curve_thumbnail_111717.jpg

That vertical line?  That's the line for the breaking point of typical student loan debt being manageable in relation to the income your college degree gets you.

In 1988, that line was quite close to the left.  Typical student loan debt could be paid off with even a $40k a year job, because the COST of college was low.

Today, that line is much farther to the right -- typical student loan debt requires a 6-figure job or better, because the COST of college is high.

So, the selection of degrees that will pay for the debt it takes to pay off student debt has SHRUNK, significantly.  That's a problem.  If college is only economically viable as a trade-school for high-end degrees, then it's totally fucking broken.

11 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

It's an underlying point. It's not the underlying point. 

That's what I thought you said. Maybe not. 

THE underlying point is don't be an idiot when taking out student loans. 

No, see my damned point above.  Yes, I want people to avoid putting themselves in a hole, but the best goddamned way to avoid that is to take steps to get rid of the giant potholes.

Edited by Brisketexan

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9 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

It's an underlying point. It's not the underlying point. 

That's what I thought you said. Maybe not. 

THE underlying point is don't be an idiot when taking out student loans. 

what a strange fascination you have with this. what you are saying is that there is no (or little value) in a THEATRE MAJOR!!!!

are you at all concerned with why the cost associated with that product is completely out of line with the value of that product? because, uh, that's the problem. much much more so than 'people being stupid'.

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6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

 

But again....you're missing the point.  COST is the defining element of the AMOUNT OF DEBT.

A college degree has historically produced a bell curve of incomes.  Adjusted for today's values, at the low end, a degree in basketweaving yields an income of $30k, but that's not a big chunk of the jobs college grads are getting.  In the middle of the bell, the bulk of college grad jobs, are $50k-120k.  Then, on the far end of the bell, are the $300k+ jobs.

bell_curve_thumbnail_111717.jpg

That vertical line?  That's the line for the breaking point of typical student loan debt being manageable in relation to the income your college degree gets you.

In 1988, that line was quite close to the left.  Typical student loan debt could be paid off with even a $40k a year job, because the COST of college was low.

Today, that line is much farther to the right -- typical student loan debt requires a 6-figure job or better, because the COST of college is high.

So, the selection of degrees that will pay for the debt it takes to pay off student debt has SHRUNK, significantly.  That's a problem.  If college is only economically viable as a trade-school for high-end degrees, then it's totally fucking broken.

No, see my damned point above.  Yes, I want people to avoid putting themselves in a hole, but the best goddamned way to avoid that is to take steps to get rid of the giant potholes.

Dude, you're a great poster and I get that you have the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" syndrome. And you may be. 

But your actual words were "the underlying point". Not "an underlying point". 

And it is an underlying point. But, since I started this thread, my ("the") underlying point is what I said it was. If you want to create "the" underlying point, then start that thread. It's a valid point and is much more broad-based and appropos of the overall problem. This little ol' thread wasn't started for that. It was to rag on NPR for not giving us the data (underlying data) of students who obviously made fucking bad student loan decisions.

Carry on. 

At least be intellectually honest about what you wrote. 

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9 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

what a strange fascination you have with this. what you are saying is that there is no (or little value) in a THEATRE MAJOR!!!!

 

Is that what I'm saying? 

Or am I saying don't go into $100k debt to get that undergrad theater degree? 

Hmm, I guess I should've been more clear about that. Oh, wait.

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1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

Is that what I'm saying? 

Or am I saying don't go into $100k debt to get that undergrad theater degree? 

Hmm, I guess I should've been more clear about that. Oh, wait.

No it’s exactly what you are saying. 

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3 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Is that what I'm saying? 

Or am I saying don't go into $100k debt to get that undergrad theater degree? 

Hmm, I guess I should've been more clear about that. Oh, wait.

It's just weird to start a thread about student loan debt, a currently enormous problem in this country affecting tens of millions of people and that's not even getting into the impact of that fact on the broader economy, and remain hyperfocused on the tiny percentage of students taking out enormous loans to get undergraduate theater degrees.

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In Texas the story is really easy. Republicans took over the lege in the 90s and cut funding to state schools like UT massively because...lib professors. We’re talking cuts of more than 50 percent funding of the budget to less than 10 percent. UT could actually declare itself not to be a state school anymore if it wanted to. 
 

In response to these massive cuts, schools like UT started raising tuition to cover the budget. 
 

In response, students started taking on more debt to have the ability to pay for the steep tuition hikes.
 

In response to that, Republican dipshits get on the Internet blaming liberal theater majors for existing in the first place because they took on debt that was originally caused by the republicans decision to not fund universities in the first place because...libs. 

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Also, some people aren't good fits for STEM or the trades, but may otherwise be smart or productive people. You can't just say, "well don't go to college", when even an assistant job often requires an undergrad degree these days.

Yes, the wise choice would be to not take out too much debt for a "worthless" degree, but even if you are getting your tuition paid for by scholarships, you still have to tap the well to cover the ever-increasing cost of housing during those years.

You can either scold people for their "poor" choices while the economy goes down in flames or you can accept that people are flawed (and often stupid) and try and do something to ameliorate it to make our country a little bit better for everyone. 

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23 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

What I get from this thread is that the entire bankruptcy system, tax incentives, and public investment should be eliminated because they encourage/allow people to make bad decisions for which they don't feel the consequences.  

only those with golden parachutes should be allowed that luxury

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6 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Dude, you're a great poster and I get that you have the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" syndrome. And you may be. 

But your actual words were "the underlying point". Not "an underlying point". 

And it is an underlying point. But, since I started this thread, my ("the") underlying point is what I said it was. If you want to create "the" underlying point, then start that thread. It's a valid point and is much more broad-based and appropos of the overall problem. This little ol' thread wasn't started for that. It was to rag on NPR for not giving us the data (underlying data) of students who obviously made fucking bad student loan decisions.

Carry on. 

At least be intellectually honest about what you wrote. 

You started a thread to (metaphorically) talk about how it sucks to have a fever and runny nose and aches.  And your point is "take medication to manage the symptoms!  Don't be stupid, take ibuprofen to knock that fever down so you don't fee so bad!"

The rest of us -- literally, pretty much every other poster on this thread, is saying "well, if you're concerned about those symptoms, ACTUALLY, the best thing to do is to get the flu shot, and wash your hands regularly to avoid getting sick."  None of us are arguing with the point that yeah, once you get a fever, take some ibuprofen.  But what we see is that the BEST way to avoid the problem about which you complain is not to buy bottles of ibuprofen -- it's to solve the underlying issue (avoid coming down with the flu altogether).

Some people make bad student loan decisions.  We can eliminate the bulk of those by making college costs more in line with expected income outcomes for most degrees, like they were a mere 30 years ago.  "Just steer around the potholes!" isn't bad advice.  "Fix the road" is better advice.

 

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42 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Thread diversion: I have a pending question/hypothesis about housing prices, and what's going to happen to them in the next 10-20 years as the boomers die off.  We have a shitload of big, fancy houses on golf courses and such that millenials don't want.  You're going to have a big slug of supply coming into the market, with not much demand.  That's a big downward pressure on price.  I think some millenials are going to be in a position to scoop up some bargains in a decade or so.

Sorry, diversion over.

and hopefully by then I'll be 10 years deep in the practice of law and be able to scoop up one of those houses on the cheap.

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17 hours ago, elfenix said:

also, the loan documentation never comes right out and says that it's a compound interest loan.  which you were taught about in high school.  there's two types of interest: simple, and compound.  but you won't find that word, "compound," in the loan contract. 

To be fair, probably can't find the term "simple interest" in any loan contract either.  

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13 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Dude, you're a great poster and I get that you have the "I'm the smartest guy in the room" syndrome. And you may be. 

But your actual words were "the underlying point". Not "an underlying point". 

And it is an underlying point. But, since I started this thread, my ("the") underlying point is what I said it was. If you want to create "the" underlying point, then start that thread. It's a valid point and is much more broad-based and appropos of the overall problem. This little ol' thread wasn't started for that. It was to rag on NPR for not giving us the data (underlying data) of students who obviously made fucking bad student loan decisions.

Carry on. 

At least be intellectually honest about what you wrote. 

spacer.png

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16 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

In Texas the story is really easy. Republicans took over the lege in the 90s and cut funding to state schools like UT massively because...lib professors. We’re talking cuts of more than 50 percent funding of the budget to less than 10 percent. UT could actually declare itself not to be a state school anymore if it wanted to. 
 

In response to these massive cuts, schools like UT started raising tuition to cover the budget. 
 

In response, students started taking on more debt to have the ability to pay for the steep tuition hikes.
 

In response to that, Republican dipshits get on the Internet blaming liberal theater majors for existing in the first place because they took on debt that was originally caused by the republicans decision to not fund universities in the first place because...libs. 

Actually, no, I don't think it was "lib professors," it was just an easy budget cut to keep taxes relatively low and to fund various corporate welfare projects.  The lib professors thing is a relatively new feature of "conservatism."

Also the budget cutting didn't happen in earnest until the 90s.  Ann Richards presided over the doubling of tuition twice in four years in the late 80s early 90s.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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15 hours ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

That is probably the biggest one, there is another. At many state schools i.e. UT System and A&M System, administration ratios are growing to nearly equal to faculty. Part of the reason for that if I understand it correctly is the mandates/compliance laws that come from the Higher Ed Board/Federal requirements/NCAA compliance. For example, if the Higher Ed board says you have to increase retention, four year graduation rates, underserved population enrollment percentages, etc etc then it takes more people to implement and monitor programs designed to meet those requirements.

You're absolutely right, except for the fact that the bolded part was surpassed 10 years ago.  

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18 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

It's just weird to start a thread about student loan debt, a currently enormous problem in this country affecting tens of millions of people and that's not even getting into the impact of that fact on the broader economy, and remain hyperfocused on the tiny percentage of students taking out enormous loans to get undergraduate theater degrees.

it's argumentation by anecdote. the same poster probably rails on entitlements because of mythical people buying steak and lobster with their snap benefits while toting around an iphone 9, and driving a lexus.

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14 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

There’s a whole lot of “not everyone should go to college” elitism going on here. We’ve got a ton of problems in our country, but too many people are educated sure as shit isn’t one of them. 

You're assuming that going to college means you come out educated.  

There's a difference between a college degree and a college education and that difference has gotten bigger and bigger.  

I see many juniors and seniors who are so devoid of critical thinking and communication skills that it makes me hate my job.  

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7 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Actually, no, I don't think it was "lib professors," it was just an easy budget cut to keep taxes relatively low and to fund various corporate welfare projects.  The lib professors thing is a relatively new feature of "conservatism."

Also the budget cutting didn't happen in earnest until the 90s.  Ann Richards presided over the doubling of tuition twice in four years in the late 80s early 90s.

Oh I agree. Wouldn’t surprise me to find out some of the money that used to go to UT wound up in the hands of student loan lenders somehow. 

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6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Actually, no, I don't think it was "lib professors," it was just an easy budget cut to keep taxes relatively low and to fund various corporate welfare projects.  The lib professors thing is a relatively new feature of "conservatism."

Also the budget cutting didn't happen in earnest until the 90s.  Ann Richards presided over the doubling of tuition twice in four years in the late 80s early 90s.

I can't speak to whether it informed the decision to slash the funding in the 90s, but conservative hysteria about liberal indoctrination on college campuses goes way way way back.

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19 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

To be fair, probably can't find the term "simple interest" in any loan contract either.  

the standard form contract in texas used by lots of dealers is the "motor vehicle retail installment sales contract - simple finance charge."

source: i used to do some collections
 

Edited by elfenix

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Thread diversion: I have a pending question/hypothesis about housing prices, and what's going to happen to them in the next 10-20 years as the boomers die off.  We have a shitload of big, fancy houses on golf courses and such that millenials don't want.  You're going to have a big slug of supply coming into the market, with not much demand.  That's a big downward pressure on price.  I think some millenials are going to be in a position to scoop up some bargains in a decade or so.

Sorry, diversion over.

Start another thread on this. 

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3 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

You're assuming that going to college means you come out educated.  

There's a difference between a college degree and a college education and that difference has gotten bigger and bigger.  

I see many juniors and seniors who are so devoid of critical thinking and communication skills that it makes me hate my job.  

This.  Interviews last week were a beating.  I put the job on ice and I'm going to take another look after graduation.

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11 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I can't speak to whether it informed the decision to slash the funding in the 90s, but conservative hysteria about liberal indoctrination on college campuses goes way way way back.

The complaint does, yes.  Actually shaping policy around it ala Perry, is relatively new.

Lots of conservative types observed and complained about liberal bias in academia 30 years ago.  No one would have suggested or supported cutting academic support for that reason.

The notion that "conservatives" or Republicans have been exactly the same craven assholes for 40 years that they are today is nonsense.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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28 minutes ago, elfenix said:

only those with golden parachutes should be allowed that luxury

Bingo.  I'm sure that the same posters in this thread who think students should pay for their mistake of financing a "useless" degree also think Trump is a great business man and all of his bankruptcies are just the art of the deal.  When a rich person fucks up, they have bought and paid for politicians writing beneficial laws that will protect the rich person's money even as they fuck over an entire company, industry, or country (hello, 2008).  And that's just good business sense.  But when an 18 year old tries to give themselves a better path in life that offers them an opportunity for a career in an industry they like, it's "well you were just fucking stupid and need to pay for your mistakes."  

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1 hour ago, tantric superman said:

Every shitty beer I drank in college was delicious.

So you never drank Rhinelander Select...

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1 hour ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

What I get from this thread is that the entire bankruptcy system, tax incentives, and public investment should be eliminated because they encourage/allow people to make bad decisions for which they don't feel the consequences.  

If by "people" you mean "bankers who loan $100K to theatre majors at Sam Houston State," yeah, you're spot on.  

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51 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Is that what I'm saying? 

Or am I saying don't go into $100k debt to get that undergrad theater degree? 

Hmm, I guess I should've been more clear about that. Oh, wait.

I mean seriously you can make $100-$200 a night waiting tables, and working waaaaaay off broadway.  I call the a win win apprenticeship.

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19 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

Bingo.  I'm sure that the same posters in this thread who think students should pay for their mistake of financing a "useless" degree also think Trump is a great business man and all of his bankruptcies are just the art of the deal.  When a rich person fucks up, they have bought and paid for politicians writing beneficial laws that will protect the rich person's money even as they fuck over an entire company, industry, or country (hello, 2008).  And that's just good business sense.  But when an 18 year old tries to give themselves a better path in life that offers them an opportunity for a career in an industry they like, it's "well you were just fucking stupid and need to pay for your mistakes."  

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!!!!! allcaps

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29 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

Bingo.  I'm sure that the same posters in this thread who think students should pay for their mistake of financing a "useless" degree also think Trump is a great business man and all of his bankruptcies are just the art of the deal.  When a rich person fucks up, they have bought and paid for politicians writing beneficial laws that will protect the rich person's money even as they fuck over an entire company, industry, or country (hello, 2008).  And that's just good business sense.  But when an 18 year old tries to give themselves a better path in life that offers them an opportunity for a career in an industry they like, it's "well you were just fucking stupid and need to pay for your mistakes."  

Umm, if you fuck up it's on your head, That's just basic personal responsibility 101. If you take out $100k for a degree in a field that has a notoriously low pay out that's your fault, and your parents as well probably for not walking you thru the scenarios that result from bad choices.  

Not everyone who's wealthy is gaming the system with a legislator in their back pocket, in fact that number would be probably .0001% of the general pollution of wealthy folks (who made their choices and succeeded).

College costs have gotten way out of hand, but personal responsibility is always rule no. 1, that may go out of style, but that's the idiots who don't heed good common sense to begin with.

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2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Umm, if you fuck up it's on your head, That's just basic personal responsibility 101. If you take out $100k for a degree in a field that has a notoriously low pay out that's your fault, and your parents as well probably for not walking you thru the scenarios that result from bad choices.  

Not everyone who's wealthy is gaming the system with a legislator in their back pocket, in fact that number would be probably .0001% of the general pollution of wealthy folks (who made their choices and succeeded).

College costs have gotten way out of hand, but personal responsibility is always rule no. 1, that may go out of style, but that's the idiots who don't heed good common sense to begin with.

I'm curious, what are your thoughts on corporations, limited partnerships, and limited liability companies?

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2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Umm, if you fuck up it's on your head, That's just basic personal responsibility 101. If you take out $100k for a degree in a field that has a notoriously low pay out that's your fault, and your parents as well probably for not walking you thru the scenarios that result from bad choices.  

Not everyone who's wealthy is gaming the system with a legislator in their back pocket, in fact that number would be probably .0001% of the general pollution of wealthy folks (who made their choices and succeeded).

College costs have gotten way out of hand, but personal responsibility is always rule no. 1, that may go out of style, but that's the idiots who don't heed good common sense to begin with.

it's funny to me how the calculus is always on the student, not the lender.

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6 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

it's funny to me how the calculus is always on the student, not the lender.

It's funny how I said personal responsibility, and you seemed to have ignored that part.  

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9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'm curious, what are your thoughts on corporations, limited partnerships, and limited liability companies?

I'm curious how those entities are forcing someone to take a $100k loan out for college.

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1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

It's funny how I said personal responsibility, and you seemed to have ignored that part.  

You've seemed to ignore corporate responsibility.

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Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm curious how those entities are forcing someone to take a $100k loan out for college.

Are you avoiding the point or do you not get it?

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1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'm curious how those entities are forcing someone to take a $100k loan out for college.

Who is forcing them to make that loan?

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20 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Umm, if you fuck up it's on your head, That's just basic personal responsibility 101. If you take out $100k for a degree in a field that has a notoriously low pay out that's your fault, and your parents as well probably for not walking you thru the scenarios that result from bad choices.  

Not everyone who's wealthy is gaming the system with a legislator in their back pocket, in fact that number would be probably .0001% of the general pollution of wealthy folks (who made their choices and succeeded).

College costs have gotten way out of hand, but personal responsibility is always rule no. 1, that may go out of style, but that's the idiots who don't heed good common sense to begin with.

Personal responsibility.  That's interesting.  So let's talk about personal responsibility of people beyond students whose parents couldn't afford to pay for their college degree.  Let's say we have a person who has bankrupted multiple business, putting people out of jobs and screwing over contractors who then couldn't get paid or pay their employees, putting them out of jobs.  Let's say this person's bankruptcies total in the hundreds of millions, if not billions.  Should that person be personally responsible for their poor business decisions?  Should they still be a billionaire millionaire who is lauded as a great business person?  Or should they be a penniless pauper living on the streets?  Should 40% of the country vote that person into office because they will use their "great business skills" to improve the economy?  Is that personal responsibility?  

And when that person treats the country in the same manner they treated their companies, blowing up debt at an astronomical rate, should the people who voted for him and who continue to support him be personally responsible for those debts?  Should they be personally responsible to those who voted against him?  Should tax payers who support his business practices be the ones to pay for them?  

Personal responsibility can be an interesting and complicated concept.  But I find often it just breaks down to one simple rule: personal responsibility for thee and not for me.  As a somewhat wealthy white man, you are perfectly happy for poor college kids to face personal responsibility.  But a rich white man facing personal responsibility?  That's just fucking crazy.

Edited by Longhornfan1024

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9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Are you avoiding the point or do you not get it?

He’s avoiding the point because he doesn’t like it. 
 

It’s like some of these assholes never saw dead poets society or if they did after that kid killed himself, they thought, “oh well!”

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31 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Umm, if you fuck up it's on your head, That's just basic personal responsibility 101. If you take out $100k for a degree in a field that has a notoriously low pay out that's your fault, and your parents as well probably for not walking you thru the scenarios that result from bad choices.  

Not everyone who's wealthy is gaming the system with a legislator in their back pocket, in fact that number would be probably .0001% of the general pollution of wealthy folks (who made their choices and succeeded).

College costs have gotten way out of hand, but personal responsibility is always rule no. 1, that may go out of style, but that's the idiots who don't heed good common sense to begin with.

Agree that someone shouldn't take out a loan for 100K for an education that may not prepare you for anything, except perhaps to move into a grad program, where the only role is to teach that subject.

But why in the world would a bank give that loan to the 18 year old in the first place? If the govt didn't interfere that loan never would have been made. At that point, enrollment in some programs might plummet, and then the school might have to decide whether that program is feasible, or whether the school wants to subsidize it, if it's that important to them.

EDIT: FYI, I now people complain that student loans are difficult to discharge in a bankruptcy like other debt. But that is part of the deal when you got a loan where you had no business getting in the first place as someone without income or a credit history. I think it's predatory against ignorant people but the college cost model is ultimately at fault here.

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie

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12 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You've seemed to ignore corporate responsibility.

To republicans corporations are people whose only responsibility is to make fellow republicans money. After that, responsibility for just about anything goes out the window. 

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