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Tax reform


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14 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Regular old tax dollars pay a crapload of the costs of building and maintaining our highway infrastructure.  And Fedex is paying [checks notes] not one penny of those.

Can you provide some details on this, in terms of the different sources of funding the highway system, both historically and currently.  Because my understanding is that the fuel tax surcharges not income taxes is the primary mechanism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Trust_Fund

 

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2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Can you provide some details on this, in terms of the different sources of funding the highway system, both historically and currently.  Because my understanding is that the fuel tax surcharges not income taxes is the primary mechanism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Trust_Fund

 

See the article I quoted.  

Short version: the fuel tax amount has stayed flat for a long-ass time.  But there has been inflation, and on top of that, there are additional costs coming due because of deferred maintenance.  So, the HTF does not have sufficient funding to cover our current highway expenses.  We're covering that funding need by transferring in billions from the general treasury (that is, generic tax dollars).

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41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

See the article I quoted.  

Short version: the fuel tax amount has stayed flat for a long-ass time.  But there has been inflation, and on top of that, there are additional costs coming due because of deferred maintenance.  So, the HTF does not have sufficient funding to cover our current highway expenses.  We're covering that funding need by transferring in billions from the general treasury (that is, generic tax dollars).

So again, the primary funding mechanism is fuel taxes and other surcharges. To say that FedEx pays "absolutely nothing" towards building and constructing the road systems they use is wrong. The article you quote indicates that the HWT ran a cumulative $100B deficit since 2008.  I am pretty sure that FedEx has paid a substantial amount of federal income tax as well during that period of time. As far as HWT solvency, sounds to me like they need to peg the fuel tax to inflation, or cap the expenditures. 

If the argument here is that FedEx should pay a non-zero amount in federal incomes taxes, I would agree.  If the argument is that they don't pay anything towards supporting the infrastructure their business requires to function, I would disagree. Erroneous comments regarding the latter do not really inform a discussion of the former. 

Edited by Anastasis
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12 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So again, the primary funding mechanism is fuel taxes and other surcharges. To say that FedEx pays "absolutely nothing" towards building and constructing the road systems they use is wrong. The article you quote indicates that the HWT ran a cumulative $100B deficit since 2008.  I am pretty sure that FedEx has paid a substantial amount of federal income tax as well during that period of time. As far as HWT solvency, sounds to me like they need to peg the fuel tax to inflation, or cap the expenditures. 

If the argument here is that FedEx should pay a non-zero amount in federal incomes taxes, I would agree.  If the argument is that they don't pay anything towards supporting the infrastructure their business requires to function, I would disagree. Erroneous comments regarding the latter do not really inform a discussion of the former. 

So....you're agreeing with me.

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Saying they pay absolutely nothing is nonsensical.

Saying they don't pay their way, when all they pay is fuel and other similar taxes, is spot-on.

There we are.

In the bigger picture, the biggest beneficiaries of the institutions, structures, and infrastructure we have are those who use them to have their capitalist enterprises run along and through them like greased lightning.  Shipping protected by the US Navy and Coast Guard, roads paid by taxes and fees, courts to enforce contracts, all that shit.  Simplistic thinking says that the biggest beneficiaries of tax dollars are those who receive direct payments (welfare queens!).  Economics says that's actually the opposite of the truth.

And in recent decades, we've made sure that those who benefit the most pay less and less.

And the poorest folks can't pay more -- blood from a turnip and all that.

So, who makes up for it?  The middle class. Already burdened with crippling healthcare costs, and all but locked out of being able to continue that generational path because of skyrocketing college costs for their kids....we just add to their tax burden.

But hey, some execs needed another $20 million bonus for their brilliant efforts to [check notes] change tax policy to get their company more tax breaks.

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3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

So, who makes up for it?  The middle class. Already burdened with crippling healthcare costs, and all but locked out of being able to continue that generational path because of skyrocketing college costs for their kids....we just add to their tax burden.

Here is more agreement.

The Middle Class has to shoulder the brunt of our fiscal dysfunction at the federal level. Especially the mid and upper middle class professional stiffs earning on a W2. 

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Here is more agreement.

The Middle Class has to shoulder the brunt of our fiscal dysfunction at the federal level. Especially the mid and upper middle class professional stiffs earning on a W2. 

The effective tax rate of people making between $100,000 and $200,000 is around 13%. Between $200,000 and $500,000, it's 19.5%.

 

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35 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So again, the primary funding mechanism is fuel taxes and other surcharges. To say that FedEx pays "absolutely nothing" towards building and constructing the road systems they use is wrong. The article you quote indicates that the HWT ran a cumulative $100B deficit since 2008.  I am pretty sure that FedEx has paid a substantial amount of federal income tax as well during that period of time. As far as HWT solvency, sounds to me like they need to peg the fuel tax to inflation, or cap the expenditures. 

If the argument here is that FedEx should pay a non-zero amount in federal incomes taxes, I would agree.  If the argument is that they don't pay anything towards supporting the infrastructure their business requires to function, I would disagree. Erroneous comments regarding the latter do not really inform a discussion of the former. 

It's not inflation that is the problem with the HWT.  Ironically, it is fuel efficiency.

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54 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

It's not inflation that is the problem with the HWT.  Ironically, it is fuel efficiency.

As I understand, it's actually three factors:

1) inflation

2) yep, increased fuel efficiency

3) deferred maintenance (this is a problem with our infrastructure across the board -- we built shit 30-50 years ago, and now the "balloon payments" of repairing/replacing are all coming due)

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  • 4 weeks later...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/12/16/corporations-paid-percent-tax-rate-last-year-steep-drop-under-president-trumps-law/?utm_campaign=post_most&utm_medium=Email&utm_source=Newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1

 

Quote

About 400 of America’s largest corporations paid an average federal tax rate of about 11 percent on their profits last year, roughly half the official rate established under President Trump’s 2017 tax law, according to a report released Monday.

 

Quote

Many companies said a big drop in corporate tax rates would allow them to invest more in capital and equipment, but the uptick in new investment appears to have been short-lived. Much of the extra capital went into record stock buybacks, which increase share prices without requiring new investment or hiring.

 

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  • 1 month later...
The question is not whether stimulus stimulates. The question is only whether the stimulus pays for itself. If it doesn't, it's ultimately a net drag on growth. These cuts, like the 2001 and 2003 cuts* will  structurally expand the deficit and the national debt. The corporate rate cuts were too large and the individual changes are just ridiculous. and while it will provide some modest level of stimulus, the Fed will effectively dampen it by raising the cost of money to contain inflation. 
 
 
 
* I predicted that, accurately, at the time back on Hornfans. [mention=420]TahoeHorn[/mention], I seem to recall that you argued with me about that and suggested that we wait and see. Do you still think they were smart?

What this guy said.
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I guess Trumpski is promising a huge “ middle class tax cut” again. Anyone remember when he promised one of those right before the 2018 midterms?
 

i don’t know why any middle class voter with an IQ over retard level would believe this jack ass. His opportunity to pass huge middle class tax cuts was the first tax cut bill that they passed. Unfortunately, that bill only helped business owners and the top 10%.

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4 minutes ago, Voldemort86 said:

i don’t know why any middle class voter with an IQ over retard level would believe this jack ass

You answered your own conundrum.

Stupid people is the most important voting bloc in the country.  Trump promised a middle class tax cut, the best health care that covers everybody for even cheaper than it is today, and that he wouldn't touch SS or Medicare.  He's broken the first two, and just today, promised to cut SS and Medicare.  But our voters are fucking Charlie Brown, charging the football for the 100th time.  Fucking idiots.

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3 hours ago, Voldemort86 said:

I guess Trumpski is promising a huge “ middle class tax cut” again. Anyone remember when he promised one of those right before the 2018 midterms?
 

i don’t know why any middle class voter with an IQ over retard level would believe this jack ass. His opportunity to pass huge middle class tax cuts was the first tax cut bill that they passed. Unfortunately, that bill only helped business owners and the top 10%.

There are some voters that really have no choice but to accept whatever some politician tells them will help them. They have zero control of their future prospects, and may listen to anyone that promises to help them. Even if they don’t believe that politician, it may be the only hope that he or she is telling the truth.

in 2016, coal miners were listening.  Trump said he would put them back to work. I recall Bill Clinton, speaking for Hillary, that they shouldn’t blame solar or wind, they should blame natural gas.  If your only job prospects and training is about digging coal out of the ground, who do you vote for? They’re not going to be retrained as nurses or programmers.

this happens with many groups. 

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There are some voters that really have no choice but to accept whatever some politician tells them will help them. They have zero control of their future prospects, and may listen to anyone that promises to help them. Even if they don’t believe that politician, it may be the only hope that he or she is telling the truth.
in 2016, coal miners were listening.  Trump said he would put them back to work. I recall Bill Clinton, speaking for Hillary, that they shouldn’t blame solar or wind, they should blame natural gas.  If your only job prospects and training is about digging coal out of the ground, who do you vote for? They’re not going to be retrained as nurses or programmers.
this happens with many groups. 

They can do physical work. There are a zillion construction jobs in Texas. They even pay better than coal jobs. And are safer. They should move.
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8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


They can do physical work. There are a zillion construction jobs in Texas. They even pay better than coal jobs. And are safer. They should move.

They’re coalminers, don’t you understand!  They’re not ditch diggers or whatever you call them physical labor jobs in Texas. They have god given rights to mine coal, now get busy building some new coal power generation plants so they can earn a living.

Seriously, I hear ya.  It’s amazing that so many of us came from ancestors that came over to America with next to nothing and made a life.  We know have people that won’t move a mile from where they were born even if that keeps them in poverty.  

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4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You answered your own conundrum.

Stupid people is the most important voting bloc in the country.  Trump promised a middle class tax cut, the best health care that covers everybody for even cheaper than it is today, and that he wouldn't touch SS or Medicare.  He's broken the first two, and just today, promised to cut SS and Medicare.  But our voters are fucking Charlie Brown, charging the football for the 100th time.  Fucking idiots.

To be fair, stupid people have always been the most important voting bloc.

We just didn't know how well a stupid person candidate would appeal to them.  We usually have fairly intelligent candidates selling selected stupid shit to get elected.  Stupid shit that they can't deliver.

In 2016, we had a moron peddling stupid shit top to bottom.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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On 11/18/2019 at 12:41 PM, Incredulity said:

It's not inflation that is the problem with the HWT.  Ironically, it is fuel efficiency.

 

Cars that are more fuel efficient are generally lighter. Lighter cars produce less wear and tear. Also, wear and tear does not increase lineally with increased weight, it increases exponentially. One 18 wheeler that gets 2 miles to the gallon does a lot more than 20 times the damage to the road than a rice burner that gets 40 miles to the gallon and drives the same number of miles. IOW, the rice burner driver is subsiding the cost of the damage the trucker does to the roads.

Perhaps once we are all driving electric cars (and decreasing maintenance costs, btw), increased fuel efficiency may be the largest factor, but we are no where near that point yet.

Yes, fuel efficiency results in less gas tax revenue. No, inflation and deferred maintenance are much larger problems.

 

tldr: wrong gif.

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On 1/22/2020 at 8:16 PM, Brisketexan said:


They can do physical work. There are a zillion construction jobs in Texas. They even pay better than coal jobs. And are safer. They should move.

 

Dude, you know what they call people who move to get better jobs?

 

Migrants. (insert dramatic gasp here)

or worse,

Immigrants. (faints dead away)

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On 1/22/2020 at 8:56 PM, TwiceHorn said:

To be fair, stupid people have always been the most important voting bloc.

We just didn't know how well a stupid person candidate would appeal to them.  We usually have fairly intelligent candidates selling selected stupid shit to get elected.  Stupid shit that they can't deliver.

In 2016, we had a moron peddling stupid shit top to bottom.

This may be the most succinct and correct answer to what happened in 2016 I've ever seen.

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49 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Doing my 2019 taxes now and anybody who supported the Trump tax cuts (or hell let’s just say Trump himself) should punch themselves in the balls until they die.

 

Right? My mom was like “good thing you can deduct your moving expenses” and I’m like “uh no they got rid of that except for military.” Her response: “that’s dumb, who did that?” 

YOU VOTED FOR HIM AND SUPPORTED IT, IDIOT

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44 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Right? My mom was like “good thing you can deduct your moving expenses” and I’m like “uh no they got rid of that except for military.” Her response: “that’s dumb, who did that?” 

YOU VOTED FOR HIM AND SUPPORTED IT, IDIOT

Removing the deductions is going a long way toward balancing the federal budget, right?

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  • 1 month later...
On 9/19/2018 at 8:55 AM, Bozo_Casanova said:


That’s pretty much it. The dialogue got too toxic, the debates didn’t have enough substance and it he told me wasn’t fun for him anymore.
it’s a shame, I miss having him around. Washparkhorn also.

Bump - I’m confused with this current board’s iteration of washpark as a Bernie Bro. You can’t post for years as a conservative/libertarian and suddenly be all in for a socialist democrat trolling other Dems supporting Biden. Anyone care to explain?

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