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Vic Mackey

Do You Know Anyone Personally Who Was Murdered or a Murderer?

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A few years ago my son had a job at a pizzeria in Bellaire. He and one of his old buddies from junior high would sort of trade the job -- when one of them would quit, the other would take the gig. They'd gone to school together for about six years and were LAX-bros together at Bellaire...My son thankfully did not have the gig when this happened.

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Mielke was shot 15 times and died almost instantly on Feb. 21, 2016. Taylor came into the pizza shop a few minutes before closing time, demanding money from Mielke, who did not have access to the register. Taylor then shot him several times, left and returned to shoot him again.

“He said (he shot Mielke) because he didn’t give him the money,” Tarrell Taylor testified. “He said if he had given him the money, then he still would have killed him.”

Makes me sick just pondering it....My kid's mom wanted to move back to England, where's she's from, over this and I told her, "Fuck it, just go...I'll come visit our daughter as much as possible."

The killer should not have been on the streets and there are a shit-ton of aspects to this case that would nudge it towards CR so I'll shut up, but I am grateful my son is still alive.

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9 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

Can’t tell the story but suffice it to say one cinderblock is inadequate to keep a human body submerged.  

Guess that explains what happened to Rocko.

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Quite a bit

1. My grandfather on my dads side was suspected to have been murdered. He was a log hauler in Louisiana and it was rumored that someone disabled his brakes and he crashed the truck right after. Happened In the late 50s and he was apparently a shit talker including not being scared of the Klan.

 

2. My mom’s cursed aunt lost a son to murder by a jealous boyfriend of a chick he was banging, 2 grandkids to gang violence, and while not a murder, lost another son in a gruesome factory accident where he got pulled into a huge meat grinder and...you know what. She also lost a granddaughter who was shot a bystander at a robbery. All of this was in Chicago.

 

3. My cousin got murdered in Cincinnati by someone who just didn’t like him. Probably gang related as my cousin had gang ties (in Mississippi where he moved from)but wasn’t active.

 

4. Another cousin while wasn’t “murdered”, was killed when he and his best friend were passed out wasted in a car pulled over to try to sleep some of the intoxication off. Well his friend stole the keys from my cousins pocket while he was passed out, and proceeded to drunk drive killing my cousin in a wreck. Of course, the friend escaped with relatively minor injuries.

 

5. An acquaintance of mine(close friends with my friends) got beat to death downtown Austin over by the Waller creek/convention center after going out. It was in the early-mid 2000s. I forgot his name but he was a tall, blonde guy. I think he may have been on Jerry Springer or some shit In the past as well. Don’t think they ever caught the suspect

 

6. A childhood friends dad who used to take all us kids to play basketball, baseball, drive-in movies, basically was like a father to us was killed during a robbery in Chicago.

 

7. A good friend of my mom had a jealous crazy ex girlfriend and she burned down his house killing him. She didn’t know he was at home and he died in the basement. Very very nice guy from the Middle East but had an obsession with Black women(no racist). They all took advantage of his money and he let them. Happened In Chicago.

 

I’m sure they’re more I may have forgotten about.

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Posted (edited)

Does it count if there's no murder, but just an attempt to hire a contract kiler (who ends up being an undercover cop)?  If so, then as of today, I can answer "Yes" to the questioned posed in the OP.

 

https://www.wacotrib.com/news/crime/waco-attorneys-charged-in-conspiracy-to-murder-plot/article_e4abd683-125e-54b5-997c-7948196b3f6f.html

Edited by scottsins

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Quite a bit
1. My grandfather on my dads side was suspected to have been murdered. He was a log hauler in Louisiana and it was rumored that someone disabled his brakes and he crashed the truck right after. Happened In the late 50s and he was apparently a shit talker including not being scared of the Klan.
 
2. My mom’s cursed aunt lost a son to murder by a jealous boyfriend of a chick he was banging, 2 grandkids to gang violence, and while not a murder, lost another son in a gruesome factory accident where he got pulled into a huge meat grinder and...you know what. She also lost a granddaughter who was shot a bystander at a robbery. All of this was in Chicago.
 
3. My cousin got murdered in Cincinnati by someone who just didn’t like him. Probably gang related as my cousin had gang ties (in Mississippi where he moved from)but wasn’t active.
 
4. Another cousin while wasn’t “murdered”, was killed when he and his best friend were passed out wasted in a car pulled over to try to sleep some of the intoxication off. Well his friend stole the keys from my cousins pocket while he was passed out, and proceeded to drunk drive killing my cousin in a wreck. Of course, the friend escaped with relatively minor injuries.
 
5. An acquaintance of mine(close friends with my friends) got beat to death downtown Austin over by the Waller creek/convention center after going out. It was in the early-mid 2000s. I forgot his name but he was a tall, blonde guy. I think he may have been on Jerry Springer or some shit In the past as well. Don’t think they ever caught the suspect
 
6. A childhood friends dad who used to take all us kids to play basketball, baseball, drive-in movies, basically was like a father to us was killed during a robbery in Chicago.
 
7. A good friend of my mom had a jealous crazy ex girlfriend and she burned down his house killing him. She didn’t know he was at home and he died in the basement. Very very nice guy from the Middle East but had an obsession with Black women(no racist). They all took advantage of his money and he let them. Happened In Chicago.
 
I’m sure they’re more I may have forgotten about.
Good Lord, man.

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I knew the guy who got killed at Gatti’s on MLK back in the 80’s... yeah I’m old. He worked there part time and some dumbass kid went in to rob the place at closing ended up killing him IIRC.

We lived in the same dorm and had the same taste in music. He had a bunch of albums which he was totally cool about recording cassettes for me. Couple years after, I was playing one of the tapes back home and told my buddy ‘yeah the guy who made me this tape was killed.’ At that very second, the tape skipped. It had never skipped before or after. The song? Dirty Deeds by AC/DC.

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3 hours ago, Stunns38 said:

 

 

4. Another cousin while wasn’t “murdered”, was killed when he and his best friend were passed out wasted in a car pulled over to try to sleep some of the intoxication off. Well his friend stole the keys from my cousins pocket while he was passed out, and proceeded to drunk drive killing my cousin in a wreck. Of course, the friend escaped with relatively minor injuries.

 

Damn this is fucked up. I'm sure your cousin never woke up at any point during the ride because he was drunk sleep. 

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I knew one of the girls killed in the “Cathouse Murders”, she was a bit nerdy and awkward as a young girl. Don’t remember the last time I saw her though. 

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1.       Youth group leader at my church (odd guy, always liked to hang out with younger kids) ended up getting married and murdered his wife and their infant child before offing himself at UT married student housing.  The story is that it was end of the school term -- he was about to fail all of his classes and couldn’t deal with that.

2.       Hot girl in my HS graduating class started working the pole as a dancer immediately after graduation.  Was murdered (along with her BF/pimp) less than a year later in a robbery/drug deal gone bad.  Murder never solved.

3.       My cousin’s newlywed bride (2-3 days since wedding) was gunned down when she answered the door at their new home they’d just moved into together in El Paso.  Apparently, a gang drug enforcer/collector went blazing to the wrong address (as he later confessed to the police.)  He did time for this and other crimes.

4.       The son of a college friend got cross-ways with a Mexican drug gang related to some business transactions.  His body was found floating in the Rio Grande after an extended absence.

5.       Close friend of my wife was murdered by her husband in a crime scene that was faked as an intruder murder at their home (both my wife and I had been to dinner parties with them in the home.)  My wife went to her funeral and actually hugged the husband and expressed condolences to him.  He was later convicted of murder and is rotting in prison.

6.       A kid that grew up with my kids and did sleepovers and camping trips with us ended up with a mile-long record related to drugs, theft, weapons and such finally killed a middle-aged woman in a robbery/drug deal gone bad.  He was convicted of murder and now lives in the custody of the TDCJ.   

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On 5/22/2020 at 7:09 AM, markstanco said:


 

 


Thats some bullshit right there, but likely the correct decision sadly.

 

Not if I’m on the jury. Jury nullification is absolutely, positively fine. I can’t believe a prosecutor in Texas would even bring that case. 

Plead him to manslaughter, tops, suspend his sentence and give him parole. 

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Not quite but almost murdered was my ex-wife's cousin Ellen. She was attacked in her bathroom by a man who got in her house from the attic, where he had been hiding for over a week. He was wearing a ninja costume and had a big kitchen knife.. He raped and then stabbed her repeatedly and left her for dead. This was on an episode of I Survived. 

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Really really nice kid and family that we went to church with free up, got hooked on meth, and killed his girlfriend when he was 18 or 19. 

I left town when I was 12 so I hadn’t seen them in 6 or 8 years when it happened, so it wasn’t too jarring, but every time it pops into my head occasionally I am flabbergasted. Meth seems bad. 

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Posted (edited)

Just remember 3 girls I went to Hugh's chill with were murdered by boyfriend's. One was my gf before we broke up and she started dating the guy that killed her. I believe she was killed in Corpus another girl murdered in a hotel in Galveston. Just had a friend murdered last month by her ex in Denton. Sad shit cause she did go to the police with texts and shit after getting beat up by him and him saying he was gonna kill her.

Also had a cousin murdered over Mexican mafia shit jn Wichita falls or Munday I can't remember but that was probably 15-20 years ago 

Edited by Zepol87

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Yes, I had an uncle who was murdered in a robbery. My parents also had a friend who was found dead locked in the trunk of his Volvo.

There are some sick people out there... stay vigilant

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12 hours ago, shakahorn said:

I knew the guy who got killed at Gatti’s on MLK back in the 80’s... yeah I’m old. He worked there part time and some dumbass kid went in to rob the place at closing ended up killing him IIRC.

We lived in the same dorm and had the same taste in music. He had a bunch of albums which he was totally cool about recording cassettes for me. Couple years after, I was playing one of the tapes back home and told my buddy ‘yeah the guy who made me this tape was killed.’ At that very second, the tape skipped. It had never skipped before or after. The song? Dirty Deeds by AC/DC.

That kind of shit always happens when I'm shrooming as well....

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5 hours ago, HenryJames said:

Did you join the circus or something?

Even better- moved to Texas (from California). 1990. 

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3 guys from my high school football team were shot and killed in drug related activity (separate events). All happened within about 5 years after graduating. I didn't know any of them well. 

Freshman year, 3 seniors pulled over a classmate and his father, not exactly sure what started the altercation but they beat the crap out of the dad and left him in the middle of the road where he was struck and killed by a passing car. 

Family related, but before I was born, my mom's cousin shot her uncle (his father) 38 times with a revolver. He's still in prison somewhere in Colorado. 

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1 hour ago, seven said:

 

Freshman year, 3 seniors pulled over a classmate and his father, not exactly sure what started the altercation but they beat the crap out of the dad and left him in the middle of the road where he was struck and killed by a passing car. 

 

What is the charge here for the guys who did it? Since they technically did not kill him but their actions caused him to be helpless in the middle of the road.

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2 hours ago, seven said:

 

shot her uncle (his father) 38 times with a revolver.

I like his determination and persistence, you don’t see that kind of work ethic in kids these days. 

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Damn this is fucked up. I'm sure your cousin never woke up at any point during the ride because he was drunk sleep. 

I think that was the case. To make it really hard, he came down from Chicago to Mississippi for my grandma’s funeral and ended up getting killed a few days before. Very tough time for the family. The cousin killed In Cincy was earlier that year too(1999).

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2 hours ago, seven said:

3 guys from my high school football team were shot and killed in drug related activity (separate events). All happened within about 5 years after graduating. I didn't know any of them well. 

Freshman year, 3 seniors pulled over a classmate and his father, not exactly sure what started the altercation but they beat the crap out of the dad and left him in the middle of the road where he was struck and killed by a passing car. 

Family related, but before I was born, my mom's cousin shot her uncle (his father) 38 times with a revolver. He's still in prison somewhere in Colorado. 

your high school sounds kinda fucked up

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1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

What is the charge here for the guys who did it? Since they technically did not kill him but their actions caused him to be helpless in the middle of the road.

I'm not sure, it was almost 25 years ago. They were tried as juveniles though. I know one of the guys owns a small construction remodeling business now. 

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Just now, seven said:

I'm not sure, it was almost 25 years ago. They were tried as juveniles though. I know one of the guys owns a small construction remodeling business now. 

I really meant in general what the charge would be for this situation. Seeing if any Shag lawyer could answer. I doubt it could be murder. Maybe involuntary manslaughter? Not sure.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

What is the charge here for the guys who did it? Since they technically did not kill him but their actions caused him to be helpless in the middle of the road.

Absolutely fits murder 2 parameters- depraved heart. 

Also probably qualifies as felony murder. 

Edited by Wulaw Horn

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11 hours ago, seven said:

38 times with a revolver.

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that outta do it. 

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7 hours ago, BehoId, The Underminer! said:

Bang

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that outta do it. 

What if she had 2 revolvers ?

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Who was the poster at TOS who shared the tale of narrowly escaping a home invasion/kidnapping somewhere up in methlahoma?

I can’t recall if anyone got murdered in that fiasco, but it was a riveting story nonetheless, chock full of “holy shit” moments.

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20 hours ago, The Dog said:

Knew the perp in this murder-suicide from a few years ago: https://www.pennlive.com/midstate/2012/09/details_emerge_in_susquehanna.html

Worked with him at Delta. One of the last people I'd expect to do something like this. 

 


“I don't know what occurred here,” Hetrick said. “I don't know the social dynamic behind this.”

 

 

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One of my closest friends killed his mother one evening; our junior year of high school. Only child, no father at home.  He came home drunk, she unloaded on him, then went to bed.   He stewed on it, got a pistol that was in the house, and killed her in her bed.

Sobered up, realized what he had done, and clumsily made it appear it was a break in/robbery/thing with a murder.  That story lasted about 3 days, then he confessed.

I have no idea of his whereabouts today.

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2 hours ago, Player said:

Who was the poster at TOS who shared the tale of narrowly escaping a home invasion/kidnapping somewhere up in methlahoma?

I can’t recall if anyone got murdered in that fiasco, but it was a riveting story nonetheless, chock full of “holy shit” moments.

Oklahomahorn or some such.  I remember that. Holy shit indeed.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Player said:

Who was the poster at TOS who shared the tale of narrowly escaping a home invasion/kidnapping somewhere up in methlahoma?

I can’t recall if anyone got murdered in that fiasco, but it was a riveting story nonetheless, chock full of “holy shit” moments.

IIRC, the poster was actually shot during that extended incident.

Edited by Armybrat

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Have a couple from my childhood. Most of them were do to my own dumbass involvement in gangs and subsequent incarceration. Every now and then one will pop up in my mind but I've mostly suppressed that part of my life.

The one I can't get over and is relived every June is the murder of my nephew Dillon, which was witnessed (and then blamed) by my eldest nephew Lucas, when I was ~13. It's fucked my family up and we've never really recovered. 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/witness-the-trial/#app

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15 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

IIRC, the poster was actually shot during that extended incident.

That’s the way I remember it as well. He may have given an update later on regarding the criminal cases and sentencing, and I think even that was full of “holy shit” stuff. 
 

Hopefully the poster made it over here, will see this , and can give an update.

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Posted (edited)

We had a neighbor who was mustered by her husband. One of those tv crime shows did an episode on it, but they missed soooo many golden opportunities. It could have been a mini-series.

The husband was a manager of the local Kmart, and his wife was having an affair with the manager of WalMart. The wife and Mr. WalMart were hooking up at a comically seedy motel in town that was located on a fairly busy intersection with zero concealed parking.

The husband had a twin brother, and they were caught in a jail house recording trying to concoct a mistaken identity alibi.

The husband ended up blaming his 11-year old daughter of hacking up her mom and burying her 5 miles out in the country. He had led the police to the body, but then claimed that he only helped his daughter bury the body.

The crime drama show missed 90% of the best details. They didn’t even use real footage of the actual house, motel, or shallow gravesite. 

Edited by ImissWallyPryor

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28 minutes ago, ImissWallyPryor said:

We had a neighbor who was mustered by her husband. One of those tv crime shows did an episode on it, but they missed soooo many golden opportunities. It could have been a mini-series.

The husband was a manager of the local Kmart, and his wife was having an affair with the manager of WalMart. The wife and Mr. WalMart were hooking up at a comically seedy motel in town that was located on a fairly busy intersection with zero concealed parking.

The husband had a twin brother, and they were caught in a jail house recording trying to concoct a mistaken identity alibi.

The husband ended up blaming his 11-year old daughter of hacking up her mom and burying her 5 miles out in the country. He had led the police to the body, but then claimed that he only helped his daughter bury the body.

The crime drama show missed 90% of the best details. They didn’t even use real footage of the actual house, motel, or shallow gravesite. 

Who wouldn't believe that story?

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1 hour ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

One of my closest friends killed his mother one evening; our junior year of high school. Only child, no father at home.  He came home drunk, she unloaded on him, then went to bed.   He stewed on it, got a pistol that was in the house, and killed her in her bed.

Sobered up, realized what he had done, and clumsily made it appear it was a break in/robbery/thing with a murder.  That story lasted about 3 days, then he confessed.

I have no idea of his whereabouts today.

In jail?

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12 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

In jail?

I doubt it; he was a juvenile at the time (I don't believe he was tried as an adult) and that was almost 40 years ago.

Now, it's possible he's incarcerated for something different now; maybe in a different state.  All I know is out of a graduating class  size of 42 (and I keep up with over 30 classmates on Facebook) his name is never mentioned.

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2 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

I doubt it; he was a juvenile at the time (I don't believe he was tried as an adult) and that was almost 40 years ago.

Now, it's possible he's incarcerated for something different now; maybe in a different state.  All I know is out of a graduating class  size of 42 (and I keep up with over 30 classmates on Facebook) his name is never mentioned.

Maybe he moved in with his auntie and uncle in Bel Air?

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On 5/22/2020 at 3:58 PM, Cajun said:

@Gooby-

I'll bet there were a fuckton of police, especially with the amount of water that her husband drew in that town.

That murder devastated Ham and probably is what completely ruined Clint Black's career trajectory.  Went from this Bill being his manager/producer to this disaster...

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxgJz68OaFNI8lRc5wT3P

 

The night before she was abducted and killed, Clint Black played a concert for my granddad's company.  Got to hang out with Cecile, Bill and Clint for a couple hours prior to the event.  Clint Black was huge at the time.  In fact, he cost as much to play a private event as George Strait.

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Primarily by virtue of occupation, but yes.

I once had a person act out what happened during a deadly confrontation using me as the dead dude.

Once you've done that, it all seems perfectly normal. But it's a story that surprisingly doesn't go over well at cocktail parties.

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56 minutes ago, Red Six said:

Primarily by virtue of occupation, but yes.

I once had a person act out what happened during a deadly confrontation using me as the dead dude.

Once you've done that, it all seems perfectly normal. But it's a story that surprisingly doesn't go over well at cocktail parties.

Sounds to me like you're just going to the wrong cocktail parties.

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1 hour ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 All I know is out of a graduating class  size of 42 (and I keep up with over 30 classmates on Facebook) his name is never mentioned.

not trying to be a smartass here... but since you said he did it during his junior year.... imma gonna go out on a limb and say he didnt end up graduating with you all.... 

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Used to hire temps to do landscaping work around the apartment complex I own.  

(CNN) February 20, 2007 -- All Nathan Moore says he wanted to do was smoke pot and get drunk with his friends.

Killing Rex Baum was never part of the plan that day in 2004.

"It all started off as a game," Moore said.

The 15-year-old and his friends were taunting the homeless man -- throwing sticks and leaves -- after having a couple of beers with him.

No big deal, Moore says, but he's sorry for what came next.

It was a mistake, he said, a sudden primal surge that made him and his friends Luis Oyola, 16, and 17-year-old Andrew Ihrcke begin punching and kicking Baum.

"Luis says 'I'm gonna go hit him,' We're all laughing, thought he was joking around,'" but he wasn't, Moore concedes. "We just all started hitting him."

They hurled anything they could find -- rocks, bricks, even Baum's barbecue grill -- and pounded the 49-year-old with a pipe and with the baseball bat he kept at his campsite for protection.

Ihrcke smeared his own feces on Baum's face before cutting him with a knife "to see if he was alive," Moore said.

After destroying Baum's camp, the boys left the homeless man -- head wedged in his own grill -- under a piece of plastic where they hoped the "animals would eat" him.

Then, Moore says, they took off to grab a bite at McDonald's.

Baum's murder was indicative of a disturbing trend.

A National Coalition for the Homeless report says last year, there were 122 attacks and 20 murders against the homeless, the most attacks in nearly a decade.

Police found Baum's body two days after the teens attacked him.

They bragged about it around town. Police picked them up and they described what happened.

Ihrcke told police that killing "the bum" reminded him of playing a violent video game, a police report shows.

All three teens pleaded no contest to first degree reckless homicide charges and went to prison.

Moore recently turned 18 at Columbia Correctional Institution in Portage, Wisconsin, where he is serving a 15 year sentence.

"When [the beating] stops, you say, 'What did we just do?'" he told CNN. "There's no rational explanation." (Watch teen explain how "game" became tragedy Video)

Teenage 'amusement'

"It's disturbing to know that young people would literally kick someone when they're already down on their luck," said Michael Stoops, the executive director of the Washington-based National Coalition for the Homeless. "We recognize that this isn't every teenager, but for some this passes as amusement."

Criminologists call these wilding sprees "sport killing," -- largely middle-class teens, with no criminal records, assaulting the homeless with bats, golf clubs, paintball guns. 

Some teens have even taped themselves in the act. Others have said they were inspired by "Bumfights," a video series created in 2002 and sold on the Web that features homeless people pummeling each other for the promise of a few bucks.

A segment called "Bum Hunter," hosted by a Crocodile Hunter-like actor wearing a safari outfit, shows him "tagging" homeless people by pouncing on them and binding their wrists.

The distributors of "Bumfights" have claimed they've sold hundreds of thousands of copies.

But the company has had to deal with a couple of legal issues unrelated to the Baum case.

Last year, three former homeless stars of "Bumfights" won a civil suit against filmmakers. Santa Monica attorney Mark Quigley, who represented Rufus Hannah, known as "Rufus the Stunt Bum" to series' fans, said he is unable to disclose the amount of the settlement.

Also, in July 2006, a California judge ordered "Bumfights'" producers Ryan McPherson and Zachary Bubeck to spend 180 days in jail for failing to perform community service related to guilty pleas they previously entered to charges of staging illegal street fights.

"Bumfights" directors did not answer CNN's request for an interview.

This poor guy ended up a suicide after years of putting up with being recognized as the kacking victim.  

(AP) _ Two of three women accused of attacking a man with an ax in a ritual honoring Jack the Ripper pleaded guilty Friday and agreed to testify against the third.

Catherine Lipsham, 22, and Ramona Barry, 27, both of Milwaukee, pleaded guilty in Circuit Court to attempted first-degree intentional homicide in the May 29 attack on the 26-year-old man, Jeffrey Meka. 

 

Assistant District Attorney Mark Williams agreed to seek seek at most eight years in prison for each of the two women in exchange for their testimony against Deborah Kazuck, 26. Ms. Kazuck’s trial is set to begin Monday with jury selection in Madison. Sentencing for Ms. Lipsham and Ms. Barry is set for May 25.

According to the criminal complaint, the three woman told police they planned to dismember the victim’s body, drain his blood and eat his kidneys in a ritual they believed would bring Jack the Ripper back to life.

The women called the attack a ″kacking″ a combination of ″killing″ and ″Jack,″ the complaint said.

Police said Ms. Kazuck told officers she wanted to commit the attack to prove her love for Jack the Ripper, the famous 19th century British serial killer, whom she said she believed was her son in a previous life.

The complaint said Ms. Barry lured the man to an apartment she shared with Ms. Lipsham on the city’s south side, saying she was alone and frightened by a storm.

Meka man told police that he heard something move in the shower while he was in the bathroom. He said he pushed the curtain and found the other two women.

Ms. Kazuck allegedly held an hatchet with a two-handed grip, raised it above her head, began chanting ″redrum″ and struck Meka man on his forehead just above his left eye, police said.

″Redrum″ - murder spelled backward - is an term taken from ″The Shining,″ Steven King’s novel about supernatural violence, the complaint said.

Meka told police he ran into the street and flagged down an ambulance, which took him to a hospital. The gash required 50 stitches.

All three defendants originally pleaded innocent by reason of insanity and were evaluated for competence by two psychiatrists. Each was found competent to stand trial.

Rodney Brzezinski tried robbing a bank armed with a monkey wrench. The guy waiting in line to cash his paycheck on his way home from work behind him was a police officer. In uniform. Rodney didn't even make it to the sidewalk.

Started using a landscaping service after that.

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