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Evangelicals and Trump


Nice Guy Eddie

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Interview with a Calvin College professor who writes about the evangelical movement in the US. She rejects the notion they "holding their noses" to vote for Trump.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/9/21291493/donald-trump-evangelical-christians-kristin-kobes-du-mez

The basis of the interview is that she doesn’t believe that many evangelicals secretly hate voting for Trump or that they only accept him because of the court nominations; instead they love him for who exactly who he is.

She writes that many evangelicals have embraced a militant view of religion to admire the strong, aggressive leader and not the humble, thoughtful leader. John Wayne good. Mr. Rogers bad.

They feel oppressed or that their views on the world are being oppressed and that Trump is with them. Therefore, they’re proud to stand with and vote for Trump regardless of his personal views or hypocritical actions.

She says the only complaint that she hears about Trump is that evangelicals wish he would tweet less. Most likely not because they disagree with his tweets but rather because it exposes their viewpoints and force them to openly defend it to some extent.

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I wish I had saved the link, but I think @Mole posted a very insightful article from some religion blog that basically said evangelicals have a very limited world view that relies on an existential belief that America is exceptional as-is and that change threatens that world view and thus their faith, so it winds up that they very much align with Trump's outward manifestations.

This seems to echo a lot of that.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

I wish I had saved the link, but I think @Mole posted a very insightful article from some religion blog that basically said evangelicals have a very limited world view that relies on an existential belief that America is exceptional as-is and that change threatens that world view and thus their faith, so it winds up that they very much align with Trump's outward manifestations.

This seems to echo a lot of that.

That sounds like it aligns with my interests, but I have no memory of this article. Maybe it will come back to me. Maybe they were talking about The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind?

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5 minutes ago, Mole said:

That sounds like it aligns with my interests, but I have no memory of this article. Maybe it will come back to me. Maybe they were talking about The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind?

Excuse me, I should have said I thought you posted it.  MIght have been @formermav43.  Or someone else entirely.  I had thought it was one of you that posts on religion with some nuance.

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some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; but it certainly isn't absolute like this thread makes it sound.

 

and FTR, the personal side of Trump is a big reason why I don't care for him.

Edited by slorch
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1 minute ago, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

Fundamentally that has proven to be the case. Trump represented/currently represents everything Christianity should oppose on a very elemental level. 

but fair point, I am so sure we’d be praying to Mecca 5 times a day and radicalizing like a mofo if Hillary was in charge. 
 

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1 minute ago, hookemATL said:

Fundamentally that has proven to be the case. Trump represented/currently represents everything Christianity should oppose on a very elemental level. 

but fair point, I am so sure we’d be praying to Mecca 5 times a day and radicalizing like a mofo if Hillary was in charge. 
 

Lolz. I meant from a character POV, not denomination or sect.  We were basically choosing from chopped shit sandwich or shit soup.

 

Then after the fact, people are saying, “You dumbasses chose shit!”

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3 minutes ago, The Dog said:

I like Vox but reading that site to understand religious conservatives is like reading National Review to understand progressives. 

Take it with a large grain of salt.

That's a great point... Christianity Today (founded by Billy Graham) has been saying similar things for a while now.

(also, I've worked with Dr. Kobes Du Mez, and am looking forward to her book.)

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1 hour ago, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't

I agree with this 100%. Just like every religion ever, Christianity is completely fabricated nonsense. It’s malleable. It can be whatever you want it to be and justify whatever you want it to. Even an evil monster like a Trump.

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Evanglicalism as a movement is based on inclusion and isn't a constructive or enlightened movement in itself.  Add into what it evolved to in America -- a largely agrarian, uneducated, predominant white following (81%) and you have a religious community which reflects it's demographic/political one and vice versa.  It certainly is rooted in our beginnings as a country and the largely WASPs who fled Europe for a new land and opportunity.  Now, those are based on generalities and there are always outliers, but Protestantism is largely a white movement which has invaded into its political leanings and largely been hijacked by leaders who exploit the rank and file for their own enrichment -- in this respect..

tumblr_o49ro6KMgZ1smsmqro10_540.gif

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18 minutes ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Wait, what Black Protestantism isn't a thing?

And how many Evangelicals are still agrarian?

And how is White Evangecalism inclusive if it's White?

1.  Who says it's not.  We're talking about Evangelical Protestants.  

2.  Agrarian or small town, probably better termed, communities is where the movement started and the proportions are still skewed.  The modern US movement is generally thought of to begin in North Carolina and about half are still in the South.  Additionally, blue collar towns or small towns still carry a greater percentage of EPs than cities, which tend to skew with a more diverse religious demographic and their protestantism is more mainline (term used by Pew).

3.  Damn autocorrect!  Should have written "exclusive".  Good catch.

 

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3 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Excuse me, I should have said I thought you posted it.  MIght have been @formermav43.  Or someone else entirely.  I had thought it was one of you that posts on religion with some nuance.

I also don't recall that, though, like @Mole, it sounds like something I *could* have posted. I'll try to search my memory banks, maybe I'll come up with something.

Edited by formermav43
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A few things:

1) Momentum from Reagan and GWB (McCain, Huckabee, and Romney as well)

2) Enforced secularism from the far left and lack of support for religious freedom from the traditional left.

3) There really is a moral divide at the philosophical level between the parties that goes deeper than the current candidate.  I.E. virtuism and Kantianism vs relativism and subjectivism.

4) Leviathan.

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5 hours ago, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; but it certainly isn't absolute like this thread makes it sound.

 

and FTR, the personal side of Trump is a big reason why I don't care for him.

Thinking back to 2016, here's what we knew about Trump: has three wives, slept with several models, bragged about sexual harassment, mocked the disabled, probably paid for multiple abortions, and wanted to hurt the poor

Clinton: once said she didn't want to be a stay-at-home mom; tried to give all Americans access to health care; once lied about a plane landing in Yugoslavia.

Where is the problem?

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6 minutes ago, JBJ said:

A few things:

1) Momentum from Reagan and GWB (McCain, Huckabee, and Romney as well)

2) Enforced secularism from the far left and lack of support for religious freedom from the traditional left.

3) There really is a moral divide at the philosophical level between the parties that goes deeper than the current candidate.  I.E. virtuism and Kantianism vs relativism and subjectivism.

4) Leviathan.

Kantianism especially as it pertains to Kant's views on race.

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34 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

Thinking back to 2016, here's what we knew about Trump: has three wives, slept with several models, bragged about sexual harassment, mocked the disabled, probably paid for multiple abortions, and wanted to hurt the poor

Clinton: once said she didn't want to be a stay-at-home mom; tried to give all Americans access to health care; once lied about a plane landing in Yugoslavia.

Where is the problem?

I don’t know why I bother but the dem establishment cleared the field for a candidate with 65% unfavorables nationwide pre election season because it was her turn, and she proceeded to follow the game plan of a 30 year old guy named Mook over the advice of the greatest politician of our lifetime and a black dude that managed to get himself elected to the highest office in the land twice. 
 

Fuck Donald Trump in his goat ass but jesus christ that was the worst campaign in the history of campaigns

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Interview with a Calvin College professor who writes about the evangelical movement in the US. She rejects the notion they "holding their noses" to vote for Trump.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/7/9/21291493/donald-trump-evangelical-christians-kristin-kobes-du-mez
The basis of the interview is that she doesn’t believe that many evangelicals secretly hate voting for Trump or that they only accept him because of the court nominations; instead they love him for who exactly who he is.
She writes that many evangelicals have embraced a militant view of religion to admire the strong, aggressive leader and not the humble, thoughtful leader. John Wayne good. Mr. Rogers bad.
They feel oppressed or that their views on the world are being oppressed and that Trump is with them. Therefore, they’re proud to stand with and vote for Trump regardless of his personal views or hypocritical actions.
She says the only complaint that she hears about Trump is that evangelicals wish he would tweet less. Most likely not because they disagree with his tweets but rather because it exposes their viewpoints and force them to openly defend it to some extent.

I thought everybody already knew this.
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14 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t know why I bother but the dem establishment cleared the field for a candidate with 65% unfavorables nationwide pre election season because it was her turn, and she proceeded to follow the game plan of a 30 year old guy named Mook over the advice of the greatest politician of our lifetime and a black dude that managed to get himself elected to the highest office in the land twice. 
 

Fuck Donald Trump in his goat ass but jesus christ that was the worst campaign in the history of campaigns

For the record: I am 100% with you. My issue is with evangelicals who try and say, "What? Trump stands against every Biblical principle there is? Whaaaa?!?!" I mean, I'll give him Commandment #5, but without a doubt, he breaks the other 9 on a daily basis (and brags about most of them). 

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59 minutes ago, HornOnTheBayou said:

For the record: I am 100% with you. My issue is with evangelicals who try and say, "What? Trump stands against every Biblical principle there is? Whaaaa?!?!" I mean, I'll give him Commandment #5, but without a doubt, he breaks the other 9 on a daily basis (and brags about most of them). 

I think many of them are truly hoping for the End Times and the rest are modern day puritans (ie “Christian” taliban)

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4 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I think many of them are truly hoping for the End Times and the rest are modern day puritans (ie “Christian” taliban)

Lotta those mofos gonna get a rude surprise if the End Times come.  /Left Behind

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7 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Excuse me, I should have said I thought you posted it.  MIght have been @formermav43.  Or someone else entirely.  I had thought it was one of you that posts on religion with some nuance.

Actually, upon reviewing his post here, I think it was @NWBuck that posted from the blog about evangelicals and their affinity for what I will abbreviate as "American nationalism."

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Evangelicals love Trump because he plays to their victim hood and grievance.  Destine being in control of everything and having nothing to impede anything they want, they believe they are complete victims.  

Remember, the three legged stool of modern conservatism is victimhood/grievance, false equivalency, and conspiracy theories.

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2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t know why I bother but the dem establishment cleared the field for a candidate with 65% unfavorables nationwide pre election season because it was her turn, and she proceeded to follow the game plan of a 30 year old guy named Mook over the advice of the greatest politician of our lifetime and a black dude that managed to get himself elected to the highest office in the land twice. 
 

Fuck Donald Trump in his goat ass but jesus christ that was the worst campaign in the history of campaigns

Let us never forget that even before that shitshow of a campaign, the Clintons employed Mark Penn for like twenty fucking years. Even putting aside everything people hated about her (some of which was well deserved and some of which was just sexism), that alone is just mind bogglingly fucking stupid.

I will add that, while I agree that the establishment “cleared the field” in 2016, there just really wasn’t much of a field to even clear. Hell, Bernie himself didn’t even want to run and was a pretty late entry. Real life Carcetti wasn’t remotely inspiring about anything and they just had almost nobody else of any stature whatsoever. The big names that sat out were Warren and Biden. Warren was a first term senator without any real establishment support and Biden was old as shit, even in 2016. It’s amazing how fucking little investment the Democratic Party made in its future during the Obama years.

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9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Let us never forget that even before that shitshow of a campaign, the Clintons employed Mark Penn for like twenty fucking years. Even putting aside everything people hated about her (some of which was well deserved and some of which was just sexism), that alone is just mind bogglingly fucking stupid.

I will add that, while I agree that the establishment “cleared the field” in 2016, there just really wasn’t much of a field to even clear. Hell, Bernie himself didn’t even want to run and was a pretty late entry. Real life Carcetti wasn’t remotely inspiring about anything and they just had almost nobody else of any stature whatsoever. The big names that sat out were Warren and Biden. Warren was a first term senator without any real establishment support and Biden was old as shit, even in 2016. It’s amazing how fucking little investment the Democratic Party made in its future during the Obama years.

Hindsight is always 2020 but imagine if Obama had picked a young up and comer for his 2nd term running mate instead of keeping Biden on the ticket. Clinton would have had a fit though esp if it had been a woman 

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2 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t know why I bother but the dem establishment cleared the field for a candidate with 65% unfavorables nationwide pre election season because it was her turn

Cleared the field? Give us names. Who did the Dem establishment clear? Who were the qualified candidates that wanted the nomination but were prevented from running by the Dem establishment and what specifically did the Dem establishment do to clear them? Surely you're not suggesting they killed Beau Biden. 

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40 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Let us never forget that even before that shitshow of a campaign, the Clintons employed Mark Penn for like twenty fucking years. Even putting aside everything people hated about her (some of which was well deserved and some of which was just sexism), that alone is just mind bogglingly fucking stupid.

I will add that, while I agree that the establishment “cleared the field” in 2016, there just really wasn’t much of a field to even clear. Hell, Bernie himself didn’t even want to run and was a pretty late entry. Real life Carcetti wasn’t remotely inspiring about anything and they just had almost nobody else of any stature whatsoever. The big names that sat out were Warren and Biden. Warren was a first term senator without any real establishment support and Biden was old as shit, even in 2016. It’s amazing how fucking little investment the Democratic Party made in its future during the Obama years.

Really how much has really changed in 2020.  Hopefully, the electorate sees beyond Trump.  I wonder how much democratic leadership has really changed.

 

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6 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Cleared the field? Give us names. Who did the Dem establishment clear? Who were the qualified candidates that wanted the nomination but were prevented from running by the Dem establishment and what specifically did the Dem establishment do to clear them? Surely you're not suggesting they killed Beau Biden. 

So you are saying no one but Bernie wanted to run? Sure guy

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9 hours ago, slorch said:

some of y'all make it sound like the alternative to voting for Trump was a more Christian thing to do.

 

LOLz.    Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; but it certainly isn't absolute like this thread makes it sound.

 

and FTR, the personal side of Trump is a big reason why I don't care for him.

Serious question. Why wasn’t voting for the alternative to Trump the more Christian thing to do?

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It’s easy to imagine Democrats who mighthave run in 2016. There’s Biden and Warren and Hickenlooper, but there was also New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear, Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick, New York Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker, and Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar, to name just a few. But all of these candidates, and all the other candidates like them, ultimately passed on the race. Why?http://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/14/16640082/donna-brazile-warren-bernie-sanders-democratic-primary-rigged

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6 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Wait, what Black Protestantism isn't a thing?

And how many Evangelicals are still agrarian?

And how is White Evangecalism inclusive if it's White?

Yeah, that post was word salad. I have a lot of criticisms of Evangelicals but whatever that poster said was nonsense.

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Can someone explain too me how Christians are persecuted in this country?  I am not saying all Christians are bad and not trying to argue the merits of religion.  I mean I see a church on every corner.  Christians are free to go to church, pray, do whatever they want as far as religion goes.  The main restraint of Christians in the US is what?  They can’t do religious stuff at a public school and this is what gets their panties in a wad?  They can’t treat gay people differently than everyone else so that makes them the ones that are persecuted?  I mean I don’t see Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc... complaining about being persecuted so I find it strange that the religion that most people belong to in this country are the ones crying out for help.  Now if we were crucifying Christians on every corner and feeding them to the lions then maybe they would have a valid reason to bitch.

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13 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Can someone explain too me how Christians are persecuted in this country?  I am not saying all Christians are bad and not trying to argue the merits of religion.  I mean I see a church on every corner.  Christians are free to go to church, pray, do whatever they want as far as religion goes.  The main restraint of Christians in the US is what?  They can’t do religious stuff at a public school and this is what gets their panties in a wad?  They can’t treat gay people differently than everyone else so that makes them the ones that are persecuted?  I mean I don’t see Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc... complaining about being persecuted so I find it strange that the religion that most people belong to in this country are the ones crying out for help.  Now if we were crucifying Christians on every corner and feeding them to the lions then maybe they would have a valid reason to bitch.

They aren't but they want something to whine about. They see all these people with legit grievances and they feel left out so they get their knickers in a twist and say they are the real victims here. And yeah, they've blurred the line between patriotism and faith in a way that is hard for me to comprehend. I grew up Catholic in Texas and Tennessee and it kind of set me apart from the mainstream, especially from evangelicals, and the way they mix flag and faith is mind bottling to me. You just don't get that in the Catholic church. Just a few years ago I saw (on Youtube) a Baptist outdoor sunrise Easter morning service that kicked off with the fucking Pledge of Allegiance. To me that's surreal -- we never said the pledge at my HS at all. We said the Lord's Prayer and some Hail Marys and lesser prayers but the idea that our faith and our country were commingled simply didn't exist. Believe it or not Mormons are the same way -- if anybody hates evangelicals more than atheists or Catholics it's them, and my Mormon bishop buddy is as freaked out by that mixing as I am.

He's still in his faith and I am not still in mine...But this mixing of God and Caesar is one reason they remain the way they are. They really do believe Jesus is 'Merican, is always strapped, hates brown people in general, and loves rich white Americans. 

 

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