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Surly Megathread of destruction and doom. [BEWARE VERY DOOMY]


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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Bad actors, when unafraid of any LE intervention or any kind as mandated by the city leadership.  Will.  Act.  Bad.  

The unintended consequences of cities letting protests turn into riots to avoid the backlash and perception of tarnishing the name of Floyd has engendered what we are seeing today.  Had they refused to let bad actors tarnish the movement and it's message, we'd be in a very different place now.  Shit, put the whiteys and commies in the same cell

I think they're doing shit like that, in some situations.  I also believe many of these violent protests are a coordinated act across the country by BLM.com members.  And police forces not squashing these things before they got out of hand is disheartening, and encourages more acts of violence. 

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3 minutes ago, Parliament said:

The joke is these rioters all live in their parents' basement until an envelope of cash and a bus ticket comes from George Soros.

Not true (probably), but how do they all decide where to go, and how do they get there? Coordinate on a Twitter thread? Scrape together their own money for a bus ticket?

Karma ?

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19 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Apparently not. I’ve seen two admit that on TV interviews, and yet to see any condemnation of such from other BLM leaders or their politician supporters.

 

Why condemn if you believe in it as well.

It is July 2020.   

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1 minute ago, Captainant said:

No, but I felt it should be mentioned since Onboard was also making a sweeping characterization that most if not all violent protests/riots were being instigated by BLM/antifa. And you know, that it's a notable and new report by the police that's directly salient to the current events being discussed in this thread.

I certainly don't doubt that has happened in some instances. There's enough radicals on all sides to go around. 

So exactly who the fuck do you think is behind the majority of the violence/riots?

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45 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Really, and I'm the one projecting?  Where have I said that none of the protests involve violence?

Really?  Okay.  Citation, please.

Jesus, I've read your shit for months.  MOST of what is going on is violent and peoples property is being destroyed.  The same people that are simply trying to recover their businesses from the damage that COVID-19 has done to them.

But you try to justify this shit.  Well fuck that.

If change is to be made then there needs to be real communication.  Not the fucked up shit that is happening right now.

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Sorry the "Portland myth" as it's being called is just that a myth.There is no violence in Portland... nothing to see here folks move along...  Someone please post some anecdotal evidence backing up that claim so everyone will stop saying there's violence in Portland.  I'm planning an August vacation there as we speak...

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35 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Tell me the Portland protests were intended to be peaceful.  Go ahead and try to make that case.  I'm no more painting with a broad brush than you did sport.  Not gonna cover what I said again about not all particpants being violent.

By most accounts, the Portland demonstrations were ratcheting down significantly....until the feds showed up as a paramilitary unit to crack some skulls.  Violence begets violence.  Managing demonstrations and ratcheting them down is one of the most effective means of reducing the thing you claim to worry about so much.  I very much wish that had happened.  But someone needed some force projection to make them happy.  And the fight got ratcheted ALL the way up.

30 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Do the leaders of the BLM movement admitting to be Marxists not move the needle even a little with you?

Does the fact that some people who filed some articles of incorporation that happen to overlap with an enormous social movement admit to being marxist bother me?  Not in particular.  The movement is literally millions of people.  The political leanings of the people who thought to provide the paperwork are of little moment.  But even it if was....so what?  Are certain political beliefs illegal?  I don't care if they're marxists, vegetarians, or sooners -- if they are calling attention to an industrialized police complex that is more military than police, and acts above and apart from the law, with a particularly disproportionate effect on minorities, I support that specific effort.  I won't be joining the Communist Party anytime soon, but if they are pointing out an obvious problem we have, I'm not going to ignore that truth just because those two guys over there are commies.

13 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Bad actors, when unafraid of any LE intervention or any kind as mandated by the city leadership.  Will.  Act.  Bad.  

The unintended consequences of cities letting protests turn into riots to avoid the backlash and perception of tarnishing the name of Floyd has engendered what we are seeing today.  Had they refused to let bad actors tarnish the movement and it's message, we'd be in a very different place now.  Shit, put the whiteys and commies in the same cell

I will agree with this, to some extent.  While a path of disengagement can have strategic value because it reduces flashpoints, it has to actually be done strategically.  Purposeful disengagement of law enforcement, coupled with purposeful ENGAGEMENT of city leadership with protest leaders to discuss the matters at hand, and work together to ensure that protests stay peaceful (see the many instances of protestors or protest leadership calling out and even stopping people intent on mayhem), can be very effective.  Some places have done this better than others.  Some places have actually done it pretty well.

But, it comes down to the fact that the issue of violence is just cover for dismissing the movement as a whole - the posts above say as much.  These are awful evil antifa/marxists/America haters, so they must be CRUSHED.   No.  If they should face repercussions, it should be solely for the ACTIONS that certain individuals have taken (and the repercussions should be limited to those individuals); it should NOT be because of what they believe.  Marxists can march through our streets every day shouting "down with America," and that is 100% protected speech.  I may not agree with it.  I may oppose it with ever fiber of my being.  But they should face no different treatment because of their beliefs.

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4 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

MOST of what is going on is violent and peoples property is being destroyed. 

Fucking quantify that.  Seriously.  You say most -- that means over 50% of all protest, and I can only conclude that 50% of all protesters, are violent rioters destroying people's property.  Back that shit up.  Because it's insane.  MOST protests are happening in broad daylight, and involve large groups -- sometimes tens of thousands of people -- marching through streets and whatnot (I myself participated in what was likely the largest march in Austin -- and I'm not special, a lot of people did....and it was violence-free), without committing any acts of violence or destruction. 

I'm not denying that there are plenty of demonstrations that have devolved into violence.  But MOST?  Come on, man.

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10 hours ago, Enchubben said:

Over the previous 24 hours, such assaults have resulted in at least 14 federal officers injured.“

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2020/07/26/portland-riots-read-out-july-26

A mere 10 days before that DHS report, the DHS posted this justification for sending federal mercenaries into Portland. In the 47 days of protests, there were 0 officers killed and 5 officers hurt. That's not from the protesters, that's from the DHS trying to justify their need to come in and protect people from violence.

So even if it is true that 14 "officers" (mercenaries) have been injured, what does that tell you about the situation in Portland with regard to violence? In 47 days these supposed lunatic anarchists produced basically nothing in terms of human injury and a mere 10 days after the mercenaries arrive they triple it in one night?

The purpose of the mercenaries is not to reduce violence. Their purpose is to increase violence and increase unrest. If you think I am wrong, then you must surely admit that if their purpose is to promote domestic tranquility they are failing tremendously.

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5 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Jesus Christ, 80% of this thread looks like an alt-right subreddit.

I’m sorry that talking about the violent acts of armed insurgents bothers you. They’re not merely yelling “Down with the USA”. They are committing violent acts IN FURTHERANCE of overthrowing the apparatus of the state. In other words, an insurrection.

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Does the fact that some people who filed some articles of incorporation that happen to overlap with an enormous social movement admit to being marxist bother me?  Not in particular.  The movement is literally millions of people.  The political leanings of the people who thought to provide the paperwork are of little moment.  But even it if was....so what?  Are certain political beliefs illegal?  I don't care if they're marxists, vegetarians, or sooners -- if they are calling attention to an industrialized police complex that is more military than police, and acts above and apart from the law, with a particularly disproportionate effect on minorities, I support that specific effort.  I won't be joining the Communist Party anytime soon, but if they are pointing out an obvious problem we have, I'm not going to ignore that truth just because those two guys over there are commies.

Brisket is still in the denial stage.  I get it.  I remember when the TEA party movement was hijacked.  He'll move into later stages of acceptance soon enough....

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3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Fucking quantify that.  Seriously.  You say most -- that means over 50% of all protest, and I can only conclude that 50% of all protesters, are violent rioters destroying people's property.  Back that shit up.  Because it's insane.  MOST protests are happening in broad daylight, and involve large groups -- sometimes tens of thousands of people -- marching through streets and whatnot (I myself participated in what was likely the largest march in Austin -- and I'm not special, a lot of people did....and it was violence-free), without committing any acts of violence or destruction. 

I'm not denying that there are plenty of demonstrations that have devolved into violence.  But MOST?  Come on, man.

Well, you say all cops are corrupt, so why are you demanding anyone quantifying anything?

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3 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Well, you say all cops are corrupt, so why are you demanding anyone quantifying anything?

Because every cop has a duty to report and enforce against bad cops.  That's the dividing line.  You know, holding people who swore an oath to uphold the law to....uphold the law against their brethren who do bad shit.   I know that's clearly an unreasonable expectation, though.

And the fact that what I noted is being stated above -- this is providing the alt-right the EXCUSE that they wanted, that is, to dismiss an entire movement, y'all are making that point better than I ever could have.

BLM and any movement for racial justice never had any chance at legitimacy with y'all.  Glad that you are being open about it.

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12 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Conversely....

Letting it go forward as they have has done a pretty good job of dramatically turning the tied of general voter sentiment back against BLM.

BLM activities, no longer police, are actually hurting the movement more than anything.

Kinda working out for one side wouldn't you agree? Do you want to back the idea of defunding the police still? The core tenant of the BLM movement?

Probably not.

 That topic cannot be discussed without it becoming blatantly political 

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The people on the wrong side of history often smell it...right when they're about to be finally discarded.  It's only now...we can digitally track their pain. 

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The Portland protests are non-violent. 

1) Property crime isn't violence.

Purposeful conflation of these things is dangerous and stupid. If I tear down a statue, it's non-violent. It's a crime. It's disorderly. If I spray "FUCK 12" on a police station, it's non-violent. If I tell a police officer to eat a bag of dicks, it's non-violent.

If you remove your emotional reaction to the event and think about it calmly, you cannot dispassionately justify calling those things "violence" without twisting yourself into an absurd mental pretzel.

2) The amount of injuries/violence is so rare relative to the number of people involved that it doesn't characterize the entire protest.

There's a critical mass of overall violence that can be met, and we're not even close to it. To honestly and dispassionately characterize a 2+-month-long protest involving tens of thousands of people "violent" we would be talking about a stack of dead cops and ERs full of seriously injured cops. The amount of physical harm even dozens of ACTUALLY VIOLENT people could do is tremendous. The fact that the cops and mercenaries release photos of small abrasions on social media as evidence of widespread violence reveals just how non-violent this whole thing is in Portland.

Put your feelings down and think calmly and rationally.

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8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And the fact that what I noted is being stated above -- this is providing the alt-right the EXCUSE that they wanted, that is, to dismiss an entire movement, y'all are making that point better than I ever could have.

BLM and any movement for racial justice never had any chance at legitimacy with y'all.  Glad that you are being open about it.

I see the new talking point has made its way over here.  You can't separate in any form or fashion the original protests vs. the current looting and rioting.  AND...if you do, because they are one in the same don't cha' know.  You are a......

 

Wait for it.....

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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because every cop has a duty to report and enforce against bad cops.  That's the dividing line.  You know, holding people who swore an oath to uphold the law to....uphold the law against their brethren who do bad shit.   I know that's clearly an unreasonable expectation, though.

And the fact that what I noted is being stated above -- this is providing the alt-right the EXCUSE that they wanted, that is, to dismiss an entire movement, y'all are making that point better than I ever could have.

BLM and any movement for racial justice never had any chance at legitimacy with y'all.  Glad that you are being open about it.

You seem to think all cops know what all their brethren are up to and have evidence to turn them in.  Broad brush indeed.

Speaking of making points, You continue to excuse the violent thug anarchists with your inability to admit what they are doing to hijack the agenda.

That crowd has been doing this for decades at G7 meetings all over the western world, so it is hardly a white supremacist conspiracy.

when the local movement calls for defunding the APD by $220,000,000, I certainly will dismiss that stupidity.

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2 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

You continue to excuse the violent thug anarchists

Citation, please.  Tell me where I said that someone, anyone, tossing a molotov cocktail shouldn't see criminal repercussions.

It's very important to y'all to think that everyone else thinks that bad actors should get off free.  That's not true.

It's very important to y'all to think that most protest/protesters are violent.  That's not true.

It's very important to y'all to think that the entire movement of "our police systems are broken as shit" is just a marxist/commie/Soros ruse to bring down America.  That's not true.

It's very important to y'all to have an excuse to dismiss the entire movement as illegitimate.  And the violence gives you that excuse.

 

We have a broken fucking society.  We have broken fucking policing.  It results in wrongful convictions, mass incarcerations, brutality, and with pathetic regularity, murder.  And it's that way because that's exactly how you like it.

I don't approve of violence.  But for fuck's sake, in the face of Americans like y'all, I damned well understand it.

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People just have different priorities when seeing the same events.

I see cops murder someone in cold blood and someone else chuck a molotov at a line of cops. I am far more angry at the cops murdering someone in cold blood. Prosecute the molotov guy, sure, but I don't really care that much.

I think a lot of people aren't honest that they look at the same set of facts and they don't actually care about how cops murder people in cold blood. They're just not accepting their own internal beliefs and values and it makes conversation pretty much impossible.

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4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It's very important to y'all to think that everyone else thinks that bad actors should get off free.  That's not true.

It's very important to y'all to think that most protest/protesters are violent.  That's not true.

It's very important to y'all to think that the entire movement of "our police systems are broken as shit" is just a marxist/commie/Soros ruse to bring down America.  That's not true.

It's very important to y'all to have an excuse to dismiss the entire movement as illegitimate.  And the violence gives you that excuse.

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The people on the wrong side of history often smell it...right when they're about to be finally discarded.  It's only now...we can digitally track their pain. 

With all it's materially baked-in advantages, being this generation's last white stand.  It's gotta be tough.  They had so many opportunities and most of them ended up as working class to middle class nobodies.  That can't feel good to have such a leg up and end up at, or below...where you started.  

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When I see people walking down a street being disappeared into unmarked minivans by secret police in wartime cosplay and at the direction of the DOJ, I find destroying the building they plot from as an acceptable consequence. That's just me though. 

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3 minutes ago, Lobo said:

The people on the wrong side of history often smell it...right when they're about to be finally discarded.  It's only now...we can digitally track their pain. 

With all it's materially baked-in advantages, being this generation's last white stand.  It's gotta be tough.  They had so many opportunities and most of them ended up as working class to middle class nobodies.  That can't feel good to have such a leg up and end up at, or below...where you started.  

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Most younger white people understand they are part of a fabric of American society and they're cool with it, and want to advance the nation.  White people born, in and before my generation, feel like they need to take some stand right now.  BUt it's because they are walking failures.  

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2 minutes ago, Lobo said:

Most younger white people understand they are part of a fabric of American society and they're cool with it, and want to advance the nation.  White people born, in and before my generation, feel like they need to take some stand right now.  BUt it's because they are walking failures.  

Stand? 
I’m sitting in my electric powered recliner.

 

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4 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

Better tap your brakes there, counselor.

Most of us realize what the problems are That you are passionate about and I totally agree some/most sorely do need radical changes. But your rhetoric, “Americans like y’all” is just.... I don’t know, really not productive.

Anyway, it seems that you should direct some of your outrage towards the violent anarchists who are taking advantage of the original BLM movement. Instead you are taking umbrage at those of us (“Americans like y’all”) who are pointing out that fact.


 

 

I'm pissed at utterly broken policing, and the forces of the status quo who have defended and continue to defend it to, literally, the death.

I'm pissed at people taking advantage of this crisis to commit mayhem.

I'm pissed at federal irregular paramilitary units in Portland, in DC, and elsewhere, using violent tools against peaceful protesters (and yes, there's clip after clip after clip of them firing on and beating demonstrators who are NOT doing anything wrong).

A shitload of you are 1) only pissed about the middle one, and 2) use that to dismiss and excuse the other two things, because the movement is just a bunch of orchestrated anarchist/marxist/Soros slaves.  That's a fucking problem.  But, here's the thing -- fuck y'all.  Our job is to make sure that history leaves your ass behind.

Just like it left behind the people who HATED MLK back in the day -- and rest assured, y'all would have been in that group back then.

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When I visited the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis a few years ago, I missed the section of the museum that described violent, Marxist-inspired radicals spray painting and burning buildings and throwing incendiary devices at the cops. Instead I saw a lot of Christian inspired non-violent civil disobedience. Shit like sitting at a segregated lunch counter or refusing to sit at the back of the bus. Please point to me where MLK advocated or condoned any of the violent acts we are seeing by the insurgents.

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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Just now, BurntEyes said:

Good bye and good luck.

DON'T YOU SULLY THE GOOD NAME OF TEX!

I hated that damned thing.  Nobody for me to yell at when it fucked me out of all my courses.  I also had a buddy who registered for classes on Tex from a payphone in Laredo when we were, ummm, out of town on a certain unplanned weekend border fiesta.

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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm pissed at utterly broken policing, and the forces of the status quo who have defended and continue to defend it to, literally, the death.

I'm pissed at people taking advantage of this crisis to commit mayhem.

I'm pissed at federal irregular paramilitary units in Portland, in DC, and elsewhere, using violent tools against peaceful protesters (and yes, there's clip after clip after clip of them firing on and beating demonstrators who are NOT doing anything wrong).

A shitload of you are 1) only pissed about the middle one, and 2) use that to dismiss and excuse the other two things, because the movement is just a bunch of orchestrated anarchist/marxist/Soros slaves.  That's a fucking problem.  But, here's the thing -- fuck y'all.  Our job is to make sure that history leaves your ass behind.

Just like it left behind the people who HATED MLK back in the day -- and rest assured, y'all would have been in that group back then.

You say so much shit about posters that is just patently false.   I mean I know you believe it to be true, it's your fervent hope...  but sorry brah you don't have the corner on anything remotely resembling the omnipotence your posting indicates you think you have. You must sit on the ledge, and just free associate shit, and write it down in your little black end of Times book.  I hope you have any OSHA approved safety harness out there on windy days.

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4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

You say so much shit about posters that is just patently false.   I mean I know you believe it to be true, it's your fervent hope...  but sorry brah you don't have the corner on anything remotely resembling the omnipotence your posting indicates you think you have. You must sit on the ledge, and just free associate shit, and write it down in your little black end of Times book.  I hope you have any OSHA approved safety harness out there on windy days.

I'm not the guy who characterized this entire movement as violent anarchist marxists, and dismissed the whole fucking thing with a convenient handwave.  Which, I concede, is much easier than listening to those uppity black folks and their allies.

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42 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Yeah, which is why I've mostly stayed out of the discussion and likely will continue to moving forward.

Yeah I usually don't wade into this type of discussion.  What a shitshow this has turned into.

I guess because I/we disagree on some points from certain posters I/we are quickly labeled alt right Americans that need to be beaten...  Not only that but there is an entire generation of a certain race that are bunch of losers that should hang their heads in shame.  Wow! That's some fine work by the resident attorneys!

Christ guys, I think we have more in common than you would like to believe.  There are positive changes being made, good things happening.

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1 minute ago, VABuckeye said:

Right?  Because we can’t be middle thinking people who understand that there’s some fucked up shit on both sides of this. 

Really?  Where above is anything but a tepid nod to "and maybe some cops have done some bad stuff?"  You and your allies here have repeatedly and consistently dismissed the entire movement as violent commie anarchists, and MOST of these demonstrations are violent, etc.....but no fucking concern for decades of systemic police abuse, built and protected by the system, and followed-through by paramilitary troops in American cities which, while in part participating in legitimate law enforcement activity, have also frequently, in documented-for-the-world-to-see cases, committed acts of violence against individuals who are not committing any acts of violence or destruction.

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