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I don't know about you guys, but if I were a black American I'd be pretty livid that this modern civil rights movement has been all but hijacked by an organized group of anarchists who just want to watch the world burn and destroy property. And many of those who are rioting are white trust fund babies.

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3 minutes ago, sunset87 said:

Christ guys, I think we have more in common than you would like to believe.  There are positive changes being made, good things happening.

I'm glad you feel that way.

That is literally the opposite of the consistent message voiced in this thread. 

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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm not the guy who characterized this entire movement as violent anarchist marxists, and dismissed the whole fucking thing with a convenient handwave.  Which, I concede, is much easier than listening to those uppity black folks and their allies.

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My allies?

You are confused.  I firmly believe in the BLM movement and that things need to change.

I also believe that radicalism and violent protests do nothing to further the cause.  Nor does shouting people down.  This country needs real conversation, real solutions and healing which will not happen with the current mob mentaility and fuck all police mentality.

I tell my kids.  Don't be the problem.  Be part of the solution.

Edited by VABuckeye
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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

By most accounts, the Portland demonstrations were ratcheting down significantly....until the feds showed up as a paramilitary unit to crack some skulls.  Violence begets violence.  Managing demonstrations and ratcheting them down is one of the most effective means of reducing the thing you claim to worry about so much.  I very much wish that had happened.  But someone needed some force projection to make them happy.  And the fight got ratcheted ALL the way up.

Does the fact that some people who filed some articles of incorporation that happen to overlap with an enormous social movement admit to being marxist bother me?  Not in particular.  The movement is literally millions of people.  The political leanings of the people who thought to provide the paperwork are of little moment.  But even it if was....so what?  Are certain political beliefs illegal?  I don't care if they're marxists, vegetarians, or sooners -- if they are calling attention to an industrialized police complex that is more military than police, and acts above and apart from the law, with a particularly disproportionate effect on minorities, I support that specific effort.  I won't be joining the Communist Party anytime soon, but if they are pointing out an obvious problem we have, I'm not going to ignore that truth just because those two guys over there are commies.

I

Portland had been protesting for weeks prior to the Feds showing up. It was winding down because they were being completely ignored by the National media. That was until they stumbled onto Federal property which finally caused a reaction from law enforcement. Said law enforcement has gone as far as to say, protest anywhere else and we won’t respond. If it were about peacefully gathering they would simply go anywhere else. If it’s about picking a fight and getting material for twitter videos you go back to the Federal courthouse and force a confrontation like they have done every night since. The Federal officers aren’t even outside until the protest forces their hand with weapons or fire. They have every chance to call the Feds bluff and have a peaceful protest, but that is clearly not the goal. 
 

To your second paragraph, it does matter somewhat when that movement and its leaders have become the face for political donations to one side of the political apparatus. BLM is used as a cover to push through legislation that wouldn’t/couldn’t be done so in normal course (mob rule). BLM is not even a properly registered charity at this point. Simply a name for cover. 

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27 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Really?  Where above is anything but a tepid nod to "and maybe some cops have done some bad stuff?"  You and your allies here have repeatedly and consistently dismissed the entire movement as violent commie anarchists, and MOST of these demonstrations are violent, etc.....but no fucking concern for decades of systemic police abuse, built and protected by the system, and followed-through by paramilitary troops in American cities which, while in part participating in legitimate law enforcement activity, have also frequently, in documented-for-the-world-to-see cases, committed acts of violence against individuals who are not committing any acts of violence or destruction.

Another strawman. There was near universal condemnation and revulsion at what happened to George Floyd and desire for reform. Even from me, a guy whom you called a terrorist. Personally, I’m sad that that movement is being hijacked by these radicals. Almost everyone here can denote the difference between these 2 groups. You’re being willfully obtuse.

Edited by Iconoclast Texan
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1 minute ago, high side 3 way said:

I don't know about you guys, but if I were a black American I'd be pretty livid that this modern civil rights movement has been all but hijacked by an organized group of anarchists who just want to watch the world burn and destroy property. And many of those who are rioting are white trust fund babies.

Many of them are pissed about that.

They're also ripshit pissed about the same old powers-that-be and their apologists using the EXACT tactics and arguments to dismiss this civil rights movement as they did the last one.

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tumblr_inline_odilyxXBrD1r8b64s_400.jpg

 

Y'all are literally just saying the same shit that we've heard before.  It's not even original.

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I'm glad you feel that way.
That is literally the opposite of the consistent message voiced in this thread. 

No, it’s what you’ve programmed yourself to hear. You hear what you want to hear. That’s a you problem.

Mericuh!!
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4 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Wait, nobody told you about dialing #911 during Tex Talk to be immediately transfered to a counselor who could auto enroll you in every class you wanted?

They must have reserved that information for people who were from the hood with an immigrant father and mom with native American heritage mixed with mostly poor white and participated in engagement with AntiRacistAction the group upon which AntiFa was ultimately formed, write an undergraduate thesis against the war on drugs, fund ACLU and SAF and other civil rights orginzation and who would later go on to marry a Black Woman, but because he didn't agree 100% with the positions and activities of BLM was actually a racist piece of shit which the world is going to leave behind...  

Sucks to be you!

How about that run on?

I love ya Brisket, really, but you've lost your fucking mind.

Your run on also had numerous misspellings.  C-.  Your class.....was not added.   All sections are full.

And naah, I'm just seeing 1) the exact same tropes/excuses being trotted out as we saw in the 60s with the civil rights movement then (I mean, EXACT same tropes), and 2) people who are a shitload more concerned about a few weeks of protests, some of which have involved rioting, than they are decades of institutionalized brutal and criminal policing, including the federal overkill that has followed, INCLUDING numerous actions by police in these very protests that are unquestionably uses of brutal force against individuals who were NOT committing any acts of violence.....

 

 

....and we can post a string of dozens more such instances, where the person shot, beaten, or gassed, wasn't committing ANY violence or mayhem.  Just protesting.  But that.....elicits nothing.  The forces of our government, who work for US, committing criminal acts against our own people....and it's fucking nothing.

So, yeah, our sense of priorities and proportion is utterly fucked up.  And that pisses me off to no end.

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Just now, high side 3 way said:

2% black people participating that night. Wow.

 

....which ain't far off from the percentage of black people in Portland (around 5%).....which is kind of the point.  Oregon, and Portland in particular, has one of the most shamefully racist histories, and institutionalized history of same, in the country.

There's a reason that it's mostly white folks demonstrating in Portland.....because over a century of racism worked, and kept black people out.

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Just now, sunset87 said:

Man I hope you find some peace. 

Maybe someday.  But peace is passivity.  We've had enough peace, enough "don't rock the boat."  Shit doesn't change -- it doesn't EVER change -- without confrontation, and without making those in power uncomfortable.  I wish it were otherwise.  I wish that people would just open their minds and listen to reason, and give a shit about their fellow man without being forced to....but I'm way too old to be a dreamer.

A shitload of America is angry right now.  They have reason to be angry.  They've been ignored, and told to STFU for decades (and truly, much longer).  Anger gets shit done.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

Maybe someday.  But peace is passivity.  We've had enough peace, enough "don't rock the boat."  Shit doesn't change -- it doesn't EVER change -- without confrontation, and without making those in power uncomfortable.  I wish it were otherwise.  I wish that people would just open their minds and listen to reason, and give a shit about their fellow man without being forced to....but I'm way too old to be a dreamer.

A shitload of America is angry right now.  They have reason to be angry.  They've been ignored, and told to STFU for decades (and truly, much longer).  Anger gets shit done.

I wish you'd open your mind and see that the truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle.  And you, are pretty far out there on your side of things.

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3 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Brisket floundering violently with this shifting narrative that everyone is racist who dares call out the recent violence....

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Really?  You've called out this violence, too?

Cool, I must have missed that.  My bad.

Edited by Brisketexan
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28 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm not the guy who characterized this entire movement as violent anarchist marxists, and dismissed the whole fucking thing with a convenient handwave.  Which, I concede, is much easier than listening to those uppity black folks and their allies.

It’s also easier to hide behind something branded as “BLM”. Any criticism or disagreement is met with “you clearly don’t support black lives” regardless of their states goals.  Don’t like anarchist dress in riot gear and weapons being the new normal for “peaceful protest?”  Don’t agree with destruction of the nuclear family? You must think Black lives don’t matter. It’s elementary school manipulation. 

Edited by ChickenSandwich
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2 minutes ago, Foosters said:

This board's position is that the BLM movement has been "hijacked" by violent anarchists and it's Brisket who has lost his mind?

 

 

 

 

Oh, how about this....because I love logical consistency.

The face of local and US governments, interacting with citizens more than any other element, is the police.  The police do this:

 

So, the police have been "hijacked by violent criminals," and therefore, they are entirely illegitimate and we should get rid of them.

Man, this is fantastic.  Didn't realize y'all ALSO supported the position of the most extreme elements of BLM.  Right on, dudes!

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1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

 Don’t like anarchist dress in riot gear and weapons being the new normal for “peaceful protest?”  You must think Black lives don’t matter. It’s elementary school manipulation.

Naaah... but man, you raise a GREAT point.

I mean, I DON'T like anarchists all dressed up in weaponized kits to go to war in our cities.....

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Oh...wait....that's only a problem if protesters dress up for war.  When federal paramilitary irregulars do it, they're heroes.

Man, I have so much to learn.

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6 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

I wish you'd open your mind and see that the truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle.  And you, are pretty far out there on your side of things.

I'll suggest that the folks arguing the hardest for "moderation!" are those who have been just fine watching the most vulnerable get utterly fucked for decades.  Yes, the truth is somewhere in the middle....but trying the middle, moderate path (you know, stuff like kneeling at a football game) has been an utter waste of time.  When society tells people over, and over, and over, that we're unwilling to listen to them and even engage in a reasonable discussion, then this shit is inevitable.

We should have listened.  A long time ago.

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4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Maybe someday.  But peace is passivity.  We've had enough peace, enough "don't rock the boat."  Shit doesn't change -- it doesn't EVER change -- without confrontation, and without making those in power uncomfortable.  I wish it were otherwise.  I wish that people would just open their minds and listen to reason, and give a shit about their fellow man without being forced to....but I'm way too old to be a dreamer.

A shitload of America is angry right now.  They have reason to be angry.  They've been ignored, and told to STFU for decades (and truly, much longer).  Anger gets shit done.

I've asked you this now three times, without you giving me an answer.

What do you condone as the next step in the escalation path when incel weirdo and dufasses with hockey sticks and larping shields leads to zero change, yet again? When all the rioting and looting and protesting does nothing, yet again?

Your position is that "nobody was listening or doing anything when we asked politely or did things non-violently, well now we are going to be violent and that'll learn 'em! Then we will get what we want!" When that will obviously not happen, then what?

Are you going to be on these boards justifying it if people start trying to hurt other people who don't agree with them? Is that the next step?

To distill the question I'd like you to answer:

Because the odds are that all this protesting and looting and rioting is going to be much ado about nothing with respect to the power structure and society. If you are logically condoning protesters sowing their oats because they are frustrated from being ignored, then what about the next steps when these protests/riots are ignored as they most assuredly will be?

 

 

 

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If they begin acknowledging the reality of state violence they can't keep up their current line of argumentation (such as it is, primarily composed of negs and gifs). It's got to be ignored and it's got to be dismissed. The most you will get is "we all know what the problem is" with zero specificity, zero suggestions for recourse, and zero ideas for how to to achieve that recourse. It truly is boring how predictable and cyclical this is.

MLK was hated in his time and torn apart as the leader of violent insurrection by the ancestors of those today who say "MLK was actually wonderful, unlike BLM." And their progeny will harken back to the peaceful days of BLM when ZERO officers were killed. "Oh if only you were as peaceful as BLM!" they'll say. And they'll learn nothing. And they'll remain profound ignorant of history and its connection to the present.

10 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

BLM the ideal and the philosophy rules. BLM the organization sucks. That's the tweet.

BLM the organization is pretty fantastic. Their goals are profoundly admirable and their dedication to non-violent demonstration and agitation are laudable.

Edited by bad_teammate
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Just now, Rougarou said:

Because the odds are that all this protesting and looting and rioting is going to be much ado about nothing with respect to the power structure and society. If you are logically condoning protesters sowing their oats because they are frustrated from being ignored, then what about the next steps when these protests/riots are ignored as they most assuredly will be?

Oh, we only have two shitty choices.  Even worse brutal repression against the have-nots, or complete social collapse.  Either the masses rising up and breaking shit a whole lot worse than they've done, or the masters cracking down and brutalizing the masses.  Those are your choices.  Pretty shitty menu.  I'd prefer to order the fish.

I mean, we COULD choose real introspection, and actually acknowledge a reality outside our own sheltered experience that sucks, and that we all ought to collectively work to improve....but we won't.  We're really, really, really bad at learning from our mistakes and fixing them.

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2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

It’s also easier to hide behind something branded as “BLM”. Any criticism or disagreement is met with “you clearly don’t support black lives” regardless of their states goals.  Don’t like anarchist dress in riot gear and weapons being the new normal for “peaceful protest?”  You must think Black lives don’t matter. It’s elementary school manipulation. 

There have been non-violent BLM protests occurring almost daily in this country. Do you support those?  

 

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Yeah, I honestly need to apologize. I incorrectly assumed that most of you who have been criticizing BLM for months (without so much as a passing positive comment) were opposed to its aims. I see now that you all support BLM (except for the small percentage of white anarchists in Portland.)

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2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

If they begin acknowledging the reality of state violence they can't keep up their current line of argumentation (such as it is, primarily composed of negs and gifs). It's got to be ignored and it's got to be dismissed. The most you will get is "we all know what the problem is" with zero specificity, zero suggestions for recourse, and zero ideas for how to to achieve that recourse. It truly is boring how predictable and cyclical this is.

MLK was hated in his time and torn apart as the leader of violent insurrection by the ancestors of those today who say "MLK was actually wonderful, unlike BLM." And their progeny will harken back to the peaceful days of BLM when ZERO officers were killed. "Oh if only you were as peaceful as BLM!" they'll say. And they'll learn nothing. And they'll remain profound ignorant of history and its connection to the present.

BLM the organization is pretty fantastic. Their goals are profoundly admirable and their dedication to non-violent demonstration and agitation are laudable.

Let's agree that BLM as a philosophy and ideal and idea is fantastic. Let's agree to disagree on the bolded, my friend.

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4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, we only have two shitty choices.  Even worse brutal repression against the have-nots, or complete social collapse.  Either the masses rising up and breaking shit a whole lot worse than they've done, or the masters cracking down and brutalizing the masses.  Those are your choices.  Pretty shitty menu.  I'd prefer to order the fish.

I mean, we COULD choose real introspection, and actually acknowledge a reality outside our own sheltered experience that sucks, and that we all ought to collectively work to improve....but we won't.  We're really, really, really bad at learning from our mistakes and fixing them.

You give only two options (which sounds an awful lot like political extortion or great negotiation tactics, depending on which side of the political fence you live on). I don't agree.

My take is that the logical answer is what has always happened-- incremental, micro, and ever-so-tiny real change is made accompanied with a lot of lipservice-- and things more or less stay the same and time continues it's march onward.

So what then? Where does that leave the rioters, looters and the peaceful protesters? What card is left to play, and will you be condoning it?

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10 minutes ago, Foosters said:

 

There have been non-violent BLM protests occurring almost daily in this country. Do you support those?  

 

I 100% support them. I agree with much of but not all of the BLM mission statement, found on their webpage. I believe in police reform etc. 
 

Im speaking specifically to the peaceful protests happening in Portland that somehow end in front of a Federal Building each evening and incite violence.

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6 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Let's agree that BLM as a philosophy and ideal and idea is fantastic. Let's agree to disagree on the bolded, my friend.

I'm happy to agree or disagree, but I'd be interested to see the specifics on your disagreement.

Is there something I don't understand about BLM?

1 minute ago, BNB said:

https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=true&uncertainty=true&zoomIn=true

This shows that BLM is losing support over these rioters with their own agenda.

Nothing in your link provides evidence for the section in bold. It is 100% your own conclusion drawn almost entirely from your own desire for such a framing.

This movement has been characterized as violent insurrection by mainstream media at large, and right-wing media specifically, since early June.

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36 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

My allies?

You are confused.  I firmly believe in the BLM movement and that things need to change.

I also believe that radicalism and violent protests do nothing to further the cause.  Nor does shouting people down.  This country needs real conversation, real solutions and healing which will not happen with the current mob mentaility and fuck all police mentality.

I tell my kids.  Don't be the problem.  Be part of the solution.

good point.  what would you consider someone(or your kids) doing that would be the problem?

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2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I'm happy to agree or disagree, but I'd be interested to see the specifics on your disagreement.

Is there something I don't understand about BLM?

Nothing in your link provides evidence for the section in bold. It is 100% your own conclusion drawn almost entirely from your own desire for such a framing.

This movement has been characterized as violent insurrection by mainstream media at large, and right-wing media specifically, since early June.

True, I should have stated IMHO.  But support went up after Floyd's murder.  It has since declined, so that is my assumption.

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Just now, dcar00 said:

good point.  what would you consider someone(or your kids) doing that would be the problem?

Not being involved.  Not listening.  Real listening and not lip service so you can just make a point.  There are fucked up things in our country and there have been for a long time.  There needs to be a common voice.  Unfortunately, the voice that's coming out of many of these protests is not the voice we need to here.

Fuck man, people need to take a step back and think things through but I'm not sure that is happening anytime soon.  Stop just taking a side.  Try to look at the issues from both sides.  It's still a difficult thing for most people to grasp.  They're so caught up in THEIR way of thinking that they simply don't care to see that issues are multi-faceted.

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Just now, VABuckeye said:

Not being involved.  Not listening.  Real listening and not lip service so you can just make a point.  There are fucked up things in our country and there have been for a long time.  There needs to be a common voice.  Unfortunately, the voice that's coming out of many of these protests is not the voice we need to here.

Fuck man, people need to take a step back and think things through but I'm not sure that is happening anytime soon.  Stop just taking a side.  Try to look at the issues from both sides.  It's still a difficult thing for most people to grasp.  They're so caught up in THEIR way of thinking that they simply don't care to see that issues are multi-faceted.

of course issues are multi faceted and nuanced.  what if you just want to go to school, get a job, have a family, pay your taxes, and not be a burden to the state?

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Just now, Armybrat said:

Same here.

So why can't people understand that?  We can have a problem with an element of the protests but we can still support the greater cause. 

It's like facism.  Unless you are lock step in tune you're on the other side.

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