Jump to content

Kenosha shooting


Pancho

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

yeah, its going to get way worse before it gets better.

And I am not talking about situations like this, I am talking about no police response.

Which go hand-in-hand.

The police are clearly dedicated and committed to behaving in just this manner.  They will not change.  They steadfastly refuse to change.  So, this is the offer they are making to the public:

Let us continue to police the way we want, however and whenever we want, doing whatever we want, because fuck you we're the cops and we can do what we want, OR...

We just won't do our jobs in your area.

That is the offer a criminal gang makes.  And it's exactly where we are.

I truly don't understand it.  American policing acts like it is addicted to shit like this; it just can't resist, it just can't quit, even KNOWING how destructive and damaging it will be, they can't put the syringe down....they just keep injecting it into their veins, not giving a shit as the world crumbles around them.  I truly can't understand it....and it's exactly the same as the way that I truly can't understand addicts and addictive behavior.

I mean, I've SEEN it.  I know what to expect, and I can predict it.  But I'll never understand it.

  • Hook 'Em 4
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

while I agree this was an idiotically scared cop, one who shouldnt be on the force, and one who SHOULD now be charged with either attempted murder or (God forbid) actual murder... there is a lot more ambiguity in this video than the George Floyd murder.

unless the audio comes out that counters the video there is a tiny, TINY spec of a possibility that the cops thought he was going for a weapon, which unfortunately means there is a better than 33% chance the jury (which most likely will have a change of venue to a remote corner of Lilly White Wisconsin) will buy the story that he was in fear for his life and kept shooting as hes trained until the suspect stopped moving and being a threat.    which means he isnt found guilty of a criminal act...

 

   It sucks.... it royally sucks.   and I just cant understand how these encounters keep happening over and over again despite these cops knowing they are on body cam and most likely being filmed by the public as well.

 

I agree the cop should be in prison for many years... but Im just not hopeful you will find a group of 12 white jurors from rural Wisconsin to all agree hes guilty and convict.

Good points.  Maybe one of you surly attorneys can chime in on change of venues because yeah, you get just a bit further West of Kenosha and all bets are off on a non-biased jury.  But this is a very populated corridor with not substantial minority demographics, but certainly viable.  The Chicago MSA ends pretty much at Waukegan, and it gets a little quiet from there until you get to Kenosha, but it's all Milwaukee MSA from Kenosha on up to almost Sheboygan.  This thing ain't going away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Sgt Hulk said:

I have no idea why on earth anyone wants to be a cop these days

A strong union to protect you. A profession-wide code of silence to protect you. Legal immunity. The right to act with impunity. Juries love you. Random strangers will buy your meals/groceries. Generous benefits. Generous retirement. Easy overtime checks. Feeling powerful. Very low bar of entry. Get as fat and out of shape as you want on the job.

Lots of reasons.

  • Hook 'Em 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

A strong union to protect you. A profession-wide code of silence to protect you. Legal immunity. The right to act with impunity. Juries love you. Random strangers will buy your meals/groceries. Generous benefits. Generous retirement. Easy overtime checks. Feeling powerful. Very low bar of entry. Get as fat and out of shape as you want on the job.

Lots of reasons.

Why would someone take a job where you get to be a power-tripping asshole, you get paid for it, and you have damned near 100% legal immunity/protection of your ability to do so?  Stacked on top of a sweet pension after 20 years?  Gosh, it's hard to figure how there are people who want to do that job....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

A strong union to protect you. A profession-wide code of silence to protect you. Legal immunity. The right to act with impunity. Juries love you. Random strangers will buy your meals/groceries. Generous benefits. Generous retirement. Easy overtime checks. Feeling powerful. Very low bar of entry. Get as fat and out of shape as you want on the job.

Lots of reasons.

afe0c901909805dd5fdb68b21297c1a3.gif

  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Why would someone take a job where you get to be a power-tripping asshole, you get paid for it, and you have damned near 100% legal immunity/protection of your ability to do so?  Stacked on top of a sweet pension after 20 years?  Gosh, it's hard to figure how there are people who want to do that job....

..and don't forget, the 40 hours on schedule means they can get a second job or numerous side jobs (it was common practice in Austin for full time cops to also be full time firefighters), even though the job is so hard and stressful on its own, or so the Germans would have us beleive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sgt Hulk said:

This cop is fucked. Super fucked.  Question does anyone on earth watch the news or social media anymore?

As a cop you know you’re gonna get filmed doing anything.  As a cop you know the moment you pull a gun it’s all over for everyone. As a cop don’t fucking act like you haven’t seen the media the past decade. Pull the trigger and it’s game over.  Why the fuck do you still do it dumbasses 

Apparently police don't seem to care about social media or the news, because their union will come out with a full-on 100% blitz defense, no matter how bad the video looks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AUS-97HORN said:

unless the audio comes out that counters the video there is a tiny, TINY spec of a possibility that the cops thought he was going for a weapon, which unfortunately means there is a better than 33% chance the jury (which most likely will have a change of venue to a remote corner of Lilly White Wisconsin) will buy the story that he was in fear for his life and kept shooting as hes trained until the suspect stopped moving and being a threat.    which means he isnt found guilty of a criminal act...

Normally, I would think cops would be a lot more enthusiastic about tackling somebody who was walking slowly/unsteadily around a van to get inside and get a gun. Especially if there are kids in the van.

Edited by atomheartbevo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

They won't.  It's going to attract the lowest of the low candidate pool that is basically left with few other options, exacerbating the issue even more.  

Based on what we have been seeing lately, I'd say they have already done so.

The thing we tend to overlook, is that this shit has been going on for decades.  It's just that we don't see video, we see a small blurb in the newspaper about an officer shooting somebody that was presenting a threat to them.  And sometimes a gun would be "found" on or near the person - people filming now do make it a lot harder for those shenanigans to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

So they apparently did taze him?  He was walking unsteadily when they lost sight of his hands and he reached into the car.  Do these guys not know what a rear naked choke is?  Or has that been outlawed?  I know some forms of restraint are no longer allowed?

A lot of people want it outlawed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’d like better audio if they have him a warning that lethal force would be used if he got/reached in his vehicle. 
 

Cops need stronger tasers to put people down quickly and cuff them. I’m moving closer to taking live ammo away from cops, but I’m not naive about how msm and social media never reports the instances when a suspect fires a gun, pulls a knife, etc. on a cop. It’s not zero, and it’s probably a higher rate than suspects getting killed by cops. This is not a pro-cop statement, only an acknowledgement that they have a more dangerous job than many people will admit, especially during a heated debate any time a cop kills a suspect or detainee that was not complying or actively attacking them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

I’d like better audio if they have him a warning that lethal force would be used if he got/reached in his vehicle. 
 

Cops need stronger tasers to put people down quickly and cuff them. I’m moving closer to taking live ammo away from cops, but I’m not naive about how msm and social media never reports the instances when a suspect fires a gun, pulls a knife, etc. on a cop. It’s not zero, and it’s probably a higher rate than suspects getting killed by cops. This is not a pro-cop statement, only an acknowledgement that they have a more dangerous job than many people will admit, especially during a heated debate any time a cop kills a suspect or detainee that was not complying or actively attacking them. 

Being a cop isn't nearly as dangerous as they would like you to think.

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Murfdogg21 said:

only an acknowledgement that they have a more dangerous job than many people will admit, especially during a heated debate any time a cop kills a suspect or detainee that was not complying or actively attacking them. 

Except the stats literally show that their job is NOT as dangerous as they would have you believe.  It's unpredictable, yes.  But there are a crapload more dangerous jobs out there.  And nevermind that a significant percentage (usually 50% or more) of police deaths are traffic accidents.

Cops aren't trained in less lethal, less brutal, but effective methods to take suspects into custody....because they don't WANT to be.  They want to whoop ass.  It's a perk of the job.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

He tried to separate two women that were fighting.

spacer.png

Quote

Online court records indicate Kenosha County prosecutors charged Blake on July 6 with third-degree sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct in connection with domestic abuse. An arrest warrant was issued for Blake the following day.

Reading he has a prior sexual assault conviction as well.  Not taking the side of the police for Robocop execution, but failure to comply with an outstanding arrest warrant, acting as one can just get in and drive away isn't smart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Gravy Train said:

Reading he has a prior sexual assault conviction as well.  Not taking the side of the police for Robocop execution, but failure to comply with an outstanding arrest warrant, acting as one can just get in and drive away isn't smart.

We don't actually know that that was an outstanding warrant.  It is possible that he was arrested/turned himself in, and was bailed out before this all happened.

But yeah, outstanding warrant or not, trying to walk away was bad idea jeans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some recent context on a subject resisting, being tased, then making it to the vehicle in a matter of seconds, an officer subsequently being shot, and the perp fleeing the scene.  47 total shots fired.  41 seconds.  

Not sure if this was the impetus for the shooting, but as it widely circulated, it had to factor in once the victim made a lunge for the vehicle.  The prior warrant was firearm related as they had to know once it was run through the system.  

Route 33 trooper shooting

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Gravy Train said:

Reading he has a prior sexual assault conviction as well.  Not taking the side of the police for Robocop execution, but failure to comply with an outstanding arrest warrant, acting as one can just get in and drive away isn't smart.

 

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

We don't actually know that that was an outstanding warrant.  It is possible that he was arrested/turned himself in, and was bailed out before this all happened.

But yeah, outstanding warrant or not, trying to walk away was bad idea jeans.

1 -- both are correct.

2 -- neither is a capital offense, punishable by summary execution, according to the laws of Wisconsin or any other fucking government that isn't fucking North Korea.

Guilty, innocent, bad, good, none of it matters -- cops don't get to fucking summarily execute you.  Ever.  Never ever ever.  That it entirely outside the law.

  • Hook 'Em 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

I’d like better audio if they have him a warning that lethal force would be used if he got/reached in his vehicle.

I mean, I guess that would be nice, but how would that change anything?  It's not like the cops didn't already have their weapons drawn at close range following him to the car, and I don't think a verbal warning of lethal force would make the shooting any more justified. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

Some recent context on a subject resisting, being tased, then making it to the vehicle in a matter of seconds, an officer subsequently being shot, and the perp fleeing the scene.  47 total shots fired.  41 seconds.  

Not sure if this was the impetus for the shooting, but as it widely circulated, it had to factor in once the victim made a lunge for the vehicle.  The prior warrant was firearm related as they had to know once it was run through the system.  

Route 33 trooper shooting

Cool.  Add to the list of capital offenses in every penal code throughout the land "I was afraid he might go for a gun, which I haven't actually seen, and shoot me."  As a bonus, that's an accelerated capital offense -- no need for arrest, trial, and conviction.  Skip straight to the death penalty, do not pass go.

Fucking EVERYONE could potentially "go for a gun and shoot you."  Everyone, everywhere, all the time.  That's the way of the world in this country.  I get to shoot anyone because they MIGHT do it, because one time someone in a situation like theirs DID go for a gun?  You do realize, of course, that based on the examples we've seen of police violence against unarmed citizens, you've just argued in favor of legal justification of a citizen preemptively shooting a cop, right?  I mean, I see a cop come at me, hand on the butt of his gun, we know for a fact that we've seen many circumstances where that ends in the cop shooting someone who was presenting no threat (like me).  So, just to be safe, I should probably defend myself against that cop heading my way.

That's fucking insane, but that's the standard the cops have adopted, and their apologists argue for.  JFC.  We are never, ever getting out of this shitshow.  Too many people will excuse it all till the bitter end.

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Murfdogg21 said:

I’d like better audio if they have him a warning that lethal force would be used if he got/reached in his vehicle. 
 

Cops need stronger tasers to put people down quickly and cuff them. I’m moving closer to taking live ammo away from cops, but I’m not naive about how msm and social media never reports the instances when a suspect fires a gun, pulls a knife, etc. on a cop. It’s not zero, and it’s probably a higher rate than suspects getting killed by cops. This is not a pro-cop statement, only an acknowledgement that they have a more dangerous job than many people will admit, especially during a heated debate any time a cop kills a suspect or detainee that was not complying or actively attacking them. 

It’s kind of shocking how few cops are actually killed by hostile gunfire/other violence in the line of duty. Still a dangerous job but there’s plenty more dangerous jobs out there by comparison. Maybe it’s because of the force at their disposal, I really don’t know.

And trust me, no one is firing a weapon at a cop without getting a clip emptied back at them. And that stuff does make the news. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11am news in Dallas - total embargo on Kenosha, then at 1140am orange man breaks in to make his acceptance speech.  At 12:40 eastern.  Was this planned?

11am CNN - talking heads in boxes full-on pubcon.  At 17 past the hour 4 sentences on Kenosha across the ticker at the bottom; "critically injured", not all dead, at 1220 eastern.

Zoom outages mapping to..... well i'll just stop there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Gravy Train said:

Reading he has a prior sexual assault conviction as well.  Not taking the side of the police for Robocop execution, but failure to comply with an outstanding arrest warrant, acting as one can just get in and drive away isn't smart.

 

47 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

We don't actually know that that was an outstanding warrant.  It is possible that he was arrested/turned himself in, and was bailed out before this all happened.

But yeah, outstanding warrant or not, trying to walk away was bad idea jeans.

Did they skip Apprehend Class? If multiple police officers could not arrest the man, then these police officers don't belong on the force. The shooter belongs in prison.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

If the police are going to release histories of the unarmed people they shoot, they need to start releasing their own histories including all excessive force complaints filed against them as well as all allegations of domestic violence.

XdY7.gif

I mean, if it's relevant....it's relevant.  Right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only watched the video once. I’ve cycled through several possible ideas of cop thinking here, and sadly based on what I think I know of what’s allowed, by the time it got to the point of the guy dipping into the car, it became a justifiable shoot, according to current laws and whatever rules of engagement are in effect for the police. 
and bad policing from arrival on scene up to that point might get the cops fired, retrained, suspended, or written up, but it won’t impact the shoot and get them (him) charged. 
 

why the man behaved as he did, we may never know. 
 

I wonder if the cops waited for him to do something they could shoot him over. Then I read he was tased. So maybe they thought he was on drugs since the taser didn’t bring him down, and they immediately ramped up to guns. I assume that for a domestic disturbance call, cops show up leary if everyone especially if they are outnumbered. Like in Minnesota, everyone is a threat, even the woman walking up to your squad car.  What was said to get to the point of tasing?  Why were the cops unwilling to use a physical takedown?

i feel like I have nothing but questions about the entirety of the interaction, but am solid on the idea that the shoot will be deemed justified due to the man going into his vehicle. 
 

I’m also surprised 3 pages in that there’s not tweets of people saying just follow officers orders and things would be fine. 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

 

1 -- both are correct.

2 -- neither is a capital offense, punishable by summary execution, according to the laws of Wisconsin or any other fucking government that isn't fucking North Korea.

Guilty, innocent, bad, good, none of it matters -- cops don't get to fucking summarily execute you.  Ever.  Never ever ever.  That it entirely outside the law.

As said originally, not attempting to justify it in any way.  And, as mentioned somewhere up there, influenced by a movie I just saw.

I'm just tryna keep people from getting shot and killed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As said originally, not attempting to justify it in any way.  And, as mentioned somewhere up there, influenced by a movie I just saw.

I'm just tryna keep people from getting shot and killed.

I get it. But I’m sick of an emphasis on trying to keep people from getting shot and killed as opposed to trying to keep police from shooting and killing people.

 

Also, if your takeaway from Queen & Slim is that had the protagonists acted differently there would have been a different outcome, you watched a different movie than I did.

 

Edit bc you’re isn’t your.

  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Cousin Strawberry said:

The way that officer shot him was eerily casual.  He didn't appear frightened at all.  Like he was shooting trapped feral hogs.

This is what gets me, man. I get everything twice is saying, but it almost looked like the cop had trained for that exact moment. Like, if this guy runs to his car and he has his back turned to me, this is what I’m supposed to do. Fire 9 times into his back when I’m in no immediate danger. Fucking makes me sick to my stomach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gravy Train said:

Reading he has a prior sexual assault conviction as well.  Not taking the side of the police for Robocop execution, but failure to comply with an outstanding arrest warrant, acting as one can just get in and drive away isn't smart.

Did the cops on the scene know that?  And was there still an outstanding warrant?  Because they were there originally for a fight between two women.  Did they start running records on everybody in the vicinity?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll just never understand the importance these guys see in keeping anyone from leaving. Unless they are fucking serial killers or you're pursuing them for some extraordinarily violent crime, do what you can to stop them, but if they get away it's not like it's hard to find people these days. That's my response to the "comply" crowd. Sometimes people will not comply for a variety of reasons, some of which are probably not justified, but not worthy of a fucking immediate death sentence with nine bullets in the back. I just don't fucking get this shit. I mean, I understand why they act like this and how we got here, but it shouldn't fucking be this way.

Edited by 'stache
  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

I get it. But I’m sick of an emphasis on trying to keep people from getting shot and killed as opposed to trying to keep police from shooting and killing people.

 

Also, if your takeaway from Queen & Slim is that had the protagonists acted differently there would have been a different outcome, you watched a different movie than I did.

 

Edit bc you’re isn’t your.

Not my takeaway from the movie.  Just watching the opening scenes, I was "oh, no, dude, don't  . . . shit."

I have been bemoaning cops on this board and its predecessors for a very long time.  It's not my "emphasis" to blame the victim.  

Edited by TwiceHorn
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

15 hours ago, Bevo&Pevo said:

gonna be a bad deal.  what the furk is wrong with cops in these situations?  is there a better way to train? or is more dog training needed?  all answers on the table, what your idea?

They are doing exactly what they were trained to do. Listen to this and it will make sense. Also the second link, which describes how socieity has viewed cops over time.

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/the-man-who-teaches-our-cops-63257870/

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/869046127/american-police

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Did the cops on the scene know that?  And was there still an outstanding warrant?  Because they were there originally for a fight between two women.  Did they start running records on everybody in the vicinity?

Who knows, it's fair to assume they asked for IDs after the fight broke up, but the exchange leading up to this hasn't been revealed yet.

I'm in favor of all municipalities of a certain population size to mandate their PDs to issue body cams.  Said body cams must be tamper-proof and activated through the entire duration of the officer's shift, with a duty of the officer to check the camera (and recording media) in at then end of shift duty.  All content must then be transferred to a central IVR, operated by the county or State, and FOIA requests can directly recall from this centralized IVR.  I know it's expensive, but I'm surprised this isn't SOP. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still think these officers should have tried more non-lethal options (bad training and I dgaf attitudes are rampant) but here’s a another angle of what led up o the shooting that I haven’t seen posted on this thread.   

 

 

Edited by SDG
  • Hook 'Em 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cousin Strawberry said:

The way that officer shot him was eerily casual.  He didn't appear frightened at all.  Like he was shooting trapped feral hogs.

Perfectly said. I couldn't put my finger on it. He may as well have been using a label maker on some storage boxes.

 

1 hour ago, lemonlime said:

If the police are going to release histories of the unarmed people they shoot, they need to start releasing their own histories including all excessive force complaints filed against them as well as all allegations of domestic violence.

giphy.webp

Edited by RomaVicta
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, SDG said:

I still think these officers should have tried more non-lethal options (bad training and I dgaf attitudes are rampant) but here’s a another angle of what led up o the shooting that I haven’t seen posted on this thread.   

 

 

It took me a few watches to figure out what was going on in that video (distance and shaky phone).

So, as best as I can tell, there was initially a struggle with him immediately behind the car that end up with him on the ground next to the rear passenger side tire. Difficult to see, but he somehow gets up and starts to walk to the front of the car while being followed by the cops. The first video we saw last night then shows a clearer view and angle of him walking around the car to the drivers side door and attempted murder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

It took me a few watches to figure out what was going on in that video (distance and shaky phone).

So, as best as I can tell, there was initially a struggle with him immediately behind the car that end up with him on the ground next to the rear passenger side tire. Difficult to see, but he somehow gets up and starts to walk to the front of the car while being followed by the cops. The first video we saw last night then shows a clearer view and angle of him walking around the car to the drivers side door and attempted murder.

Correct. I’ve seen it mentioned that there was a struggle and a taser was deployed.  I see a struggle but no taser in the video I posted.   
 

imo it doesn’t add a lot but every piece of information helps.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I'll just never understand the importance these guys see in keeping anyone from leaving. Unless they are fucking serial killers or you're pursuing them for some extraordinarily violent crime, do what you can to stop them, but if they get away it's not like it's hard to find people these days. That's my response to the "comply" crowd. Sometimes people will not comply for a variety of reasons, some of which are probably not justified, but not worthy of a fucking immediate death sentence with nine bullets in the back. I just don't fucking get this shit. I mean, I understand why they act like this and how we got here, but it shouldn't fucking be this way.

A lot of us are vicarious hard asses. Don't start no shit won't be no shit. We're that way about war, too, until we take a look at the cost to a soldier. 

Now we're seeing actual videos of what happens, and, surprise!, it's nothing like what we see on the TV. The Floyd murder was mortifying to anyone with a shred of humanity. We also like good guy-bad guy narratives. This poor fellow maybe had a warrant out. So? Floyd may have just committed a theft crime. So?

It doesn't matter if Floyd had just raped and murdered the shop owner; the police don't get to summarily execute anybody. Same with this guy. I don't have to know every detail or actually any detail of their pasts to see police murder of a citizen.

I don't want to get all esoteric, but our mythologies are very fucked up. Conflicts are rarely good versus evil where the best and most just solution is killing the bad guy. That's the story we tell ourselves over and over again. It does not serve us well in life.

  • Hook 'Em 5
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

^
Well Put.  Every Police Officer should have to read "The Hero with a Thousand Faces" by Campbell during academy training (I assume they set aside for an hour each month to read, right?).  Good v. Evil begets Us v. Them.  There are no Heroes and Anti-Heroes, no Antagonists and Protagonists.  Nothing is that cleanly delineated.  Which is precisely why we invented stories and mythology.  It was a bad idea in some cases to put cameras on these guys because now they think they're in a fucking movie where they're the good guy. 

Edited by Lobo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

It was a bad idea in some cases to put cameras on these guys because now they think they're in a fucking movie where they're the good guy. 

Wilco Sheriff Chody scoffs at your notions.....now hold on while he makes hires based on how a candidate will look busting down doors on "Live PD" [look it up -- he actually fucking did that.].

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...