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Ruth Bader Ginsburg is dead


Michael Knight

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Without delving too deeply into the (horrible) legal analysis in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, my concern about adding any overly-religious person to the Court is that they will further widen the gaping hole that Hobby Lobby tore in our laws in order to relieve Christian employers of any obligation to, or liability arising from, any generally applicable laws. It is already a startlingly broad ruling with no limiting principles. For example, it can easily be used to argue that a Christian employer (which could be a massive publicly traded corporation just bullshitting about it being a religious corporation) should be exempted from requirements to pay their employees because their employees might take some of their wages and spend it on contraceptives, and that would violate the employer's religion. It sounds ludicrous but this is almost exactly what happened in that case and the Court failed to lay out any limitations. A perhaps more realistic concern along the same lines would revolve around a company getting caught stealing wages (which happens literally every day all over the country) and making a similar argument to avoid any civil liability.

Employers already enjoy an enormous amount of control over the lives of their employees and employees already have too few legal protections. The Court expanding Hobby Lobby to allow employers to opt-out of compliance with more and more laws intended to protect employees is a very real danger. And we will certainly see more and more claims brought under RFRA in other contexts, in an attempt to re-establish a substantial amount of the Lochner era's substantive due process doctrine under the guise of religious freedom.

These are concerns that would generally apply for anyone that any Republican would appoint, but there are differences between individual judges in how far they want to stretch this get out of jail free card. Based on what little I know about her, Amy Coney Barrett seems like she'd probably stretch it further than most.

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23 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

Their lives are not their own? That's right out of 1 Corinthians 6. If that is your underlying concern, your beef is with all Christians. And I don't see how questioning her spiritual advisor is any different than questioning someone's priest/pastor/preacher whatever on what counsel they might give. 

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3 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

National Catholic Reporter does "hit pieces" on Catholics. Seems relevant. 

I don't know a lot about NCR, but spent three seconds researching it and found it described as pro-choice progressive outlet. I figure that you did a similar search unless your vetting process didn't go any deeper than the banner at the top of the page. You know that that piece is and the motivation behind it.  

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5 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Their lives are not their own? That's right out of 1 Corinthians 6. If that is your underlying concern, your beef is with all Christians. And I don't see how questioning her spiritual advisor is any different than questioning someone's priest/pastor/preacher whatever on what counsel they might give. 

Sure - if Jerry Falwell, Jr. controls your decisions, he is fair game in your nomination.

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I don't know a lot about NCR, but spent three seconds researching it and found it described as pro-choice progressive outlet. I figure that you did a similar search unless your vetting process didn't go any deeper than the banner at the top of the page. You know that that piece is and the motivation behind it.  

Those articles were written as she was nominated by Trump for the 7th Cir. job with no prior judicial experience. 

If I worshipped under the Cult of Ayn Rand and was nominated for a Supreme Court seat, are my worshipping practices immune from inquiry?

And NCR is not Fox or MSNBC. You know that. They dive deep into issues that affect Catholics. If they have some aversion to a Catholic/Pentecostal hybrid sect, they are worth a listen.

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19 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Without delving too deeply into the (horrible) legal analysis in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, my concern about adding any overly-religious person to the Court is that they will further widen the gaping hole that Hobby Lobby tore in our laws in order to relieve Christian employers of any obligation to, or liability arising from, any generally applicable laws. It is already a startlingly broad ruling with no limiting principles. For example, it can easily be used to argue that a Christian employer (which could be a massive publicly traded corporation just bullshitting about it being a religious corporation) should be exempted from requirements to pay their employees because their employees might take some of their wages and spend it on contraceptives, and that would violate the employer's religion. It sounds ludicrous but this is almost exactly what happened in that case and the Court failed to lay out any limitations. A perhaps more realistic concern along the same lines would revolve around a company getting caught stealing wages (which happens literally every day all over the country) and making a similar argument to avoid any civil liability.

Employers already enjoy an enormous amount of control over the lives of their employees and employees already have too few legal protections. The Court expanding Hobby Lobby to allow employers to opt-out of compliance with more and more laws intended to protect employees is a very real danger. And we will certainly see more and more claims brought under RFRA in other contexts, in an attempt to re-establish a substantial amount of the Lochner era's substantive due process doctrine under the guise of religious freedom.

These are concerns that would generally apply for anyone that any Republican would appoint, but there are differences between individual judges in how far they want to stretch this get out of jail free card. Based on what little I know about her, Amy Coney Barrett seems like she'd probably stretch it further than most.

I loathe both Hobby Lobby and Citizens United, especially to the extent that they extend First Amendment (any Bill of Rights right) to corporations.  Corporations are not and never have been natural persons.  On occasion, they are treated as natural persons, but that should be the exception, not the rule.

I don't see either of those two cases as being philosophically conservative.  Politically conservative, sure.  Gross either way.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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Just now, TwiceHorn said:

I loathe both Hobby Lobby and Citizens United, especially to the extent that they extend First Amendment (any Bill of Rights right) to corporations.

I don't see either of those two cases as being philosophically conservative.  Politically conservative, sure.  Gross either way.

Hobby Lobby is probably the case I hate the most from any of the Court's modern jurisprudence. Right up there with Bush v. Gore, Citizens United, and Shelby County in terms of bad law that is clearly politically motivated and has an enormous impact on the country, but what really sets it apart is just how fucking dumb and poorly reasoned it is. That's because Alito is legitimately stupid and couldn't be a more effective hack.

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8 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Hobby Lobby is probably the case I hate the most from any of the Court's modern jurisprudence. Right up there with Bush v. Gore, Citizens United, and Shelby County in terms of bad law that is clearly politically motivated and has an enormous impact on the country, but what really sets it apart is just how fucking dumb and poorly reasoned it is. That's because Alito is legitimately stupid and couldn't be a more effective hack.

I fucking hate Leegin. It's one of the most consequential decisions in decades for most Americans and completely upended the relationship between retail and manufacturers at what turned out to be a crucial time. 

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2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I fucking hate Leegin. It's one of the most consequential decisions in decades for most Americans and completely upended the relationship between retail and manufacturers at what turned out to be a crucial time. 

Well, if we're going to geek out, I also hate Alice Corp. v. CLS Bank Int'l.

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On 9/20/2020 at 1:27 PM, ChuckNorrisActionJeans said:

I donated to the Get Mitch fund and also to my U.S Congress race.

What's the best way to donate to Biden/Harris? Through Act Blue? Or is that even worth doing? Should I take that money (not a huge amount) and instead give again to one or more Senate races?

LOL I got negged by Slorch for this post

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13 minutes ago, troph said:

Citizens United is just bizarre too. Corporations don’t have first amendment rights that’s just insane.

Thank Justice Lewis Powell for his memo and loyalty to corporations/trusts. He came up with the idea that corporations had protected First Amendment rights in First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti, 435 U.S. 765 (1978). What a fucking asshole. 

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6 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

If you want to kill corporate personhood, you have to go all the way back to Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific.

The funny thing about that decision was that the Court did not make that ruling.

A court reporter - tied to a railroad - drafted a headnote stating corporations had equal protection rights and, somehow, that became precedent.

Utter bullshit.

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To be fair, Citizens United is a really complex decision applied to fairly narrow facts.  It can certainly be read to reinforce First Amendment rights of corporations in the election context.  But I am not sure it wholly precludes campaign restrictions on corporations.

It's just historically been a bitch to pass election/campaign reform measures, and that is certainly a roadblock to future legislation.

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5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

This might come as quite a shock to a few of you, but It’s actually completely possible and reasonable to decide that corporations have legal personhood for certain limited purposes and not for others.

Yep, the original concern with corporations, often referred to and still in France as "anonymous societies" was that they were not persons and thus not subject to the laws governing persons.

They have subsequently and selectively been subjected to the laws governing persons.  But they should probably not be given individual human rights.

Edited by TwiceHorn
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1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

A completely different time.  Hell, it wasn't until late in W's second term that you really saw the ugliness start.  

 

51 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

There might have been some ugliness a few years prior (Bork, Thomas).

So weird. It sounds like it was all one sided ugliness until McConnell ignores Garland’s nomination. Then it’s the end of the world? 
 

 

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7 minutes ago, GRHorn said:

 

So weird. It sounds like it was all one sided ugliness until McConnell ignores Garland’s nomination. Then it’s the end of the world? 
 

 

There was bipartisan ugliness, mostly with hearings, though, rather than stonewalling nominations.

I think, though, Schumer raised the stakes a bit in the later Shrub administration both with his "we shouldn't confirm any more Shrub nominees" rhetoric and with actual stalling of hearings.  It's been downhill from there.

As far as I can tell, until McConnell, the Republican imbalance in appointing Justices has simply been luck of the draw.  Maybe with a bit of "tactical retirement" thrown in.

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3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The filibuster was not an issue in Merrick Garland's nomination.

Let's not split hairs.  Politics has played a role in Supreme Court nominations a number of times in modern history.  The level of partisanship and hypocrisy has escalated, no doubt.  I imagine many on the right side of the aisle feel that Kavanaugh was brutalized, though I thought his rant before the judiciary committee rendered him unqualified for the office, regardless of the veracity of the allegations against him.

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6 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Let's not split hairs.  Politics has played a role in Supreme Court nominations a number of times in modern history.  The level of partisanship and hypocrisy has escalated, no doubt.  I imagine many on the right side of the aisle feel that Kavanaugh was brutalized, though I thought his rant before the judiciary committee rendered him unqualified for the office, regardless of the veracity of the allegations against him.

Also and more importantly, Christine Blasey Ford was obviously telling the truth and everyone on earth fucking knew it. That wasn’t some manufactured political hit job.

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