Jump to content

Markets still falling like whoa


Recommended Posts

29 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

Bingo - I have a new tool that helps me make investment decisions; I use it extensively when trying to time the market

 

  Hide contents

 

coin animated gif image

 

I've had a bad 2 months, but I had a pretty good feel about yesterday morning.  Didn't think there was any way we'd recover late afternoon after going negative though, which is a huge positive sign for the market as a whole.  Today's reaction looks like some FED language is leaking early, or that the markets are expecting a huge change in language.  Pulling out of Syria is a small positive add for International Affairs, even though it'll likely lead to the Kurds being slaughtered by the Turks, again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m on vacation and just watching the markets and some stocks on my vanguard account. The Dow’s 350 point gain was gone in less than 60 seconds real time. How the hell do I compete with that . And this is after the Fed did what most were expecting . Not too hawkish. Not too dovish. Am I playing in a casino with my retirement right now? I guess I’ll stick to some small trades like I have been doing . Thank god I didn’t buy earlier today thinking I would miss the party. Buy the rumor sell the news I guess

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, NowThis said:

bulk of the Fed governors are hawkish for rate hikes in 2019, market wanted dovish signals but no relief. 

So 12 people control the economy

More like 12 people control the Federal Reserve interest rates and the financial world loses their mind when they hold regularly scheduled meetings with nominal public announcements.
Not really sure they control the economy - they do control some market swings though.

I don't mind, it allowed me to close out a couple of Puts that were set to expire on Friday; I've learned to take the wins & try to not take the losses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, UTGrad98 said:

I’m on vacation and just watching the markets and some stocks on my vanguard account. The Dow’s 350 point gain was gone in less than 60 seconds real time. How the hell do I compete with that . 

Well, you at least consider puts or collars on your portfolio or individual stocks.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rolling over my 401k in October and not investing 75% of it feels good right about now. As for my brokerage account, it is terrible. All that tech is putting a serious hurt. I am taking a break from choosing individual stocks; I missed the chance to sell, and now I am riding it out for better or worse. 

The one bright spot has been MSFT; I will increase my position there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

At this point just absorb the losses and wait for the bounce, right?  Right?!  Guys???!!!!

You should have been layering puts for the last few weeks, buying in when the market spikes up.
Since October I've sold about 20% of my holdings, and hedged with puts that mature from 01/19 - 12/19, but average out around April.

I'll probably dabble in some short-term (2-3 week) puts if the market jumps during first quarter,  or until it seems to find a bottom.
Trouble is I don't have the time everyday to monitor as closely as I would hope - but the hedge allows me to sleep with my retirement more secured, and dabbling in market indicator options is more entertaining than trying to pick winners.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Wally Fairway said:

You should have been layering puts for the last few weeks, buying in when the market spikes up.
Since October I've sold about 20% of my holdings, and hedged with puts that mature from 01/19 - 12/19, but average out around April.

I'll probably dabble in some short-term (2-3 week) puts if the market jumps during first quarter,  or until it seems to find a bottom.
Trouble is I don't have the time everyday to monitor as closely as I would hope - but the hedge allows me to sleep with my retirement more secured, and dabbling in market indicator options is more entertaining than trying to pick winners.

I am curious. Are you rolling those puts over when the market spikes or just buying more? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been grinding out a few pennies messing around with costless collars on covered stocks and keeping an eye out for profitable box spreads. It's not buying a NFLX call the day before earnings and waking up to a 300 percent increase, but I'll take a 0.01 percent gain after commissions when the market is taking a 2 percent dump every day.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Never been more excited than to have bought amzn at 1504 yesterday at end of day and sell it this morning at breakfast at 1504. My wife is already super upset with me because I am glued to my phone all day watching the market . I never get to do this due to my job but we are at her folks house for the next week in Mexico. I’m having the time of my life . She is not. I’m looking at buying amzn at 1400 ish today or tomorrow if it gets there. Should coincide with the s and p hitting 2460. Apparently that is the next floor. Then down to 2250. Because all of these guys are right on and can predict the market with ease. Still exciting to be able to trade a little while we find a bottom. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, UTGrad98 said:

Never been more excited than to have bought amzn at 1504 yesterday at end of day and sell it this morning at breakfast at 1504. My wife is already super upset with me because I am glued to my phone all day watching the market . I never get to do this due to my job but we are at her folks house for the next week in Mexico. I’m having the time of my life . She is not. I’m looking at buying amzn at 1400 ish today or tomorrow if it gets there. Should coincide with the s and p hitting 2460. Apparently that is the next floor. Then down to 2250. Because all of these guys are right on and can predict the market with ease. Still exciting to be able to trade a little while we find a bottom. 

some are saying AMZN to 1100 soon with a bottom around 900-1000

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

AMZN big breakout was around 800.  Tread carefully.  

Always. This is my money for my retirement. Since I went almost all cash in January this year my plan has always been to dabble some once the downward movement starts and to invest it all again once the recession hits. Maybe it is a good plan maybe it isn’t . I didn’t feel good watching from the sidelines from April to September. But it sure has felt good since then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

I am curious. Are you rolling those puts over when the market spikes or just buying more? 

When I started doing this it was 100% about putting in some hedge against a correction/bear/crash. I had been using limit orders to reduce risks against a >10% downturn, but in February I had several that were triggered when the shit first hit the fan this year. I was left out of a couple of positions when the market rebounded. So I started to look at options, which I had never really done much with, other than lose money trying to get a deal on something that I hoped rebounded after falling (that was all a speculation/gambling strategy).

Somewhere around April I started buying some 3-6 month puts on core holdings, mainly VOO and IJT. The first of those expired with no value, as the market rebound took out any value in buying out of the money puts. But I realized that what I wanted was something longer than 3-6 months. So over the summer I started looking at 6-15 month puts, and I switch from VOO to SPY; because SPY is much more active and has a lot more expiration dates and goes out much longer.
By the end of September, I was probably 30-40% hedged, the put in place at that time had lost some value both due to increases in underlying securities and to theta.

Once mid-late October hit the remaining early options had started to show some value, and I typically sell the options before expiration, as I'm not looking to reduce my core ETF's but still want to hedge against losses at this point. I've probably taken another 15-20% out of some funds, so right now I'm more than 100% hedged, but that will end by February - unless I make more purchases.

I sold a couple of in the money options yesterday after the Fed release and the market fell, they were set to expire tomorrow. And I'm still trying to understand how theta affects value, and the volatility as expiration nears. I've held some too long when they had value and watch it erode, and sold others only to see the value rise; but I've done that with stocks and funds so it is nothing new. Just the leverage of using options makes the swings in valuation greater, which makes came either offset the rollercoaster ride, or make it even more volatile.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, UTGrad98 said:

Always. This is my money for my retirement. Since I went almost all cash in January this year my plan has always been to dabble some once the downward movement starts and to invest it all again once the recession hits. Maybe it is a good plan maybe it isn’t . I didn’t feel good watching from the sidelines from April to September. But it sure has felt good since then.

As I've become more comfortable with puts, as the market peaked and went into decline; I'm hoping to survive this correction event and rollover into buying out of the money calls once the rebound has started.
(I know that there is timing, but I'm not looking to call a top or bottom  but more to ride the curve for an accelerated ride)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Wally Fairway said:

As I've become more comfortable with puts, as the market peaked and went into decline; I'm hoping to survive this correction event and rollover into buying out of the money calls once the rebound has started.
(I know that there is timing, but I'm not looking to call a top or bottom  but more to ride the curve for an accelerated ride)

I have an elementary understanding of puts and calls. I know most people lose money with them and that has always scared me away from really looking into it. It’s an all or nothing bet correct?  I would love a small tutorial reply from  one of y’all who do them if you have time over the next few weeks. So if I wanted to do a put of amazon right now at 1500 and bet it goes to 1400 I would put up the value of 1 share that I would lose completely if the put doesn’t occur in the time frame I specify? Would my account also need to have in it 150k ? You buy 1 share but get the spread as if you own 100? If it does hit 1400 then I get the gain of 100 dollars x 100 shares? See the types of questions I ask? That would be the level of a tutorial I would need . If you make a put bet do you stand to gain more money by calling it in a faster time frame? Say in 1 month vs 3 months ? Why not just make a. Put bet right now for 5 years on amazon going to 1200? Or even better make a call bet of amazon out 5 years to 2000? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, UTGrad98 said:

I have an elementary understanding of puts and calls. I know most people lose money with them and that has always scared me away from really looking into it. It’s an all or nothing bet correct?  I would love a small tutorial reply from  one of y’all who do them if you have time over the next few weeks. So if I wanted to do a put of amazon right now at 1500 and bet it goes to 1400 I would put up the value of 1 share that I would lose completely if the put doesn’t occur in the time frame I specify? Would my account also need to have in it 150k ? You buy 1 share but get the spread as if you own 100? If it does hit 1400 then I get the gain of 100 dollars x 100 shares? See the types of questions I ask? That would be the level of a tutorial I would need . If you make a put bet do you stand to gain more money by calling it in a faster time frame? Say in 1 month vs 3 months ? Why not just make a. Put bet right now for 5 years on amazon going to 1200? Or even better make a call bet of amazon out 5 years to 2000? 

Not versed enough for a full explanation, but puts and calls are options that can be bought and sold just like stocks. So say you buy a put option for AMZN at 1400. The closer AMZNs stock price gets to 1400 the more your option is worth. You could turn it for a profit before then, or gamble that it is going to fall below 1400 and then exercise your put option, profiting on your "right" to sell the borrowed shares at 1500 - netting you 100 on each minus fees and that jazz.

It is only a zero sum game if you hold onto the put until the expiration date and are unable to exercise the option if AMZN is sitting above 1400.

I will say, options trading is a beast and can be a very cruel mistress as it swings much more than securities such as stocks and bonds. 

But, when you hit, you can hit pretty fucking big. (you should watch The Big Short if you haven't seen it)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good read for those with anxiety watching the market daily/often recently.

https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2014/02/worlds-worst-market-timer/

What if You Only Invested at Market Peaks?

Posted February 25, 2014 by Ben Carlson

Meet Bob.

Bob is the world’s worst market timer.

What follows is Bob’s tale of terrible timing of his stock purchases.

Bob began his career in 1970 at age 22. He was a diligent saver and planner.

His plan was to save $2,000 a year during the 1970s and bump that amount up by $2,000 each decade until he could retire at age 65 by the end of 2013 (so $4,000/year in the 80s, $6,000/year in the 90s then $8,000/year until he retired).

He started out by saving the $2,000 a year in his bank account until he had $6,000 to invest by the end of 1972.

Bob’s problem as an investor was that he only had the courage to put his money to work in the market after a huge run-up.

So all of his money went into an S&P 500 index fund at the end of 1972 (I know there were no index funds in 1972, but just go with me here…see my assumptions at the bottom of the post).

The market dropped nearly 50% in 1973-74 so Bob basically put his money in at the peak of the market right before a crash.

Yet he did have one saving grace. Once he was in the market, he never sold his fund shares. He held on for dear life because he was too nervous about being wrong on both his sell decisions too.

Remember this decision because it’s a big one.

Bob didn’t feel comfortable about investing again until August of 1987 after another huge bull market.  After 15 years of saving he had $46,000 to put to work. Again he put it in an S&P 500 index fund and again he invested at a market peak just before a crash.

This time the market lost more than 30% in short order right after Bob bought his index shares.

Timing wasn’t on Bob’s side so he continued to keep his money invested as he did before.

After the 1987 crash, Bob didn’t feel right about putting his future savings back into stocks until the tech bubble really ramped up at the end of 1999. He had another $68,000 of savings to put to work. This time his purchase at the end of December in 1999 was just before a 50%+ downturn that lasted until 2002.

This buy decision left Bob with some more scars but he decided to make one more big purchase with his savings before he retired.

The final investment was made in October of 2007 when he invested $64,000 which he had been saving since 2000. He rounded out his string of horrific market timing calls by buying right before another 50%+ crash from the credit blow-up.

After the financial crisis, he decided to continue to save his money in the bank (another $40,000) but kept his stock investments in the market until he retired at the end of 2013.

To recap, Bob was a terrible market timer with his only stock market purchases being made at the market peaks just before extreme losses.

Here are the purchase dates, the crashes that followed and the amount invested at each date:

mkt timer

Luckily, while Bob couldn’t time his buys, he never sold out of the market even once.  He didn’t sell after the bear market of 1973-74 or the Black Monday in 1987 or the technology bust in 2000 or the financial crisis of 2007-09.

He never sold a single share.

So how did he do?

Even though he only bought at the very top of the market, Bob still ended up a millionaire with $1.1 million.

How could that be you might ask?

First of all Bob was a diligent saver and planned out his savings in advance. He never wavered on his savings goals and increased the amount he saved over time.

Second, he allowed his investments to compound through the decades by never selling out of the market over his 40+ years of investing.  He gave himself a really long runway.

He did have to endure a huge psychological toll from seeing large losses and sticking with his long-term mindset, but I like to think Bob didn’t pay much attention to his portfolio statements over the years.  He just continued to save and kept his head down.

And finally, he had a very simple and low-cost investment plan — one index fund with minimal costs.

Obviously, this story was for illustrative purposes and I wouldn’t recommend a portfolio consisting of 100% in stocks of a single market in the S&P 500 unless you have an extremely high risk tolerance. Even then a more balanced portfolio in different global markets with a sound rebalancing policy makes much more sense.

And if he would have simply dollar cost averaged into the market on an annual basis with his savings he would have ended up with much more money in the end (over $2.3 million).

But then he wouldn’t be Bob, The World’s Worst Market Timer.

Lessons from Bob’s Journey:

  • If you are going to make investment mistakes, make sure you are biased towards optimism and not pessimism. Long-term thinking has been rewarded in the past and unless you think the world or innovation is coming to an end it should be rewarded in the future. As Winston Churchill once said, “I am an optimist.  It does not seem too much use being anything else.”
  • Losses are part of the deal when investing in stocks.  How you react to those losses is one of the biggest determinants of your investment performance.
  • Saving more, thinking long-term and allowing compound interest to work in your favor are your biggest accelerants for building wealth. These factors have nothing to do with picking stocks or a complex investment strategy. Get these big things right and any disciplined investment strategy should do the trick.

*******

***Assumptions and disclaimers: This is fictional and is in no way how you should invest your money. It takes nerves of steel to hold 100% of your portfolio in stocks for decades on end. This is purely an exercise in the power of long-term thinking and compounding. I used the S&P 500 less a 0.20% expense ratio from the 1972 until 1977 when the Vanguard 500 Fund had its first full year. I used the Vanguard 500 Fund from 1977 on so these were actual results from a real fund, not purely hypothetical.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Put Option is the option to "put out" a share of stock out (to the option seller) at the agreed-up on price, called the "Strike Price." If the current market value is below that strike price, that Put is worth money, as it conveys the right to sell at a higher price, at the expense of the caller.

A Call Option Is the opposite. It gives the owner the right to "call for delivery" of a share at the strike price.

They can be viewed as insurance against a market move and let buyers/sellers to take larger positions with less money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Parliament said:


They can be viewed as insurance against a market move and let buyers/sellers to take larger positions with less money.

I'm pretty sure that is viewed as gambling; I'm primarily using them as hedges against holdings.
People who do this shit uncovered/naked are just asking someone to take all their money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/22/2018 at 4:35 PM, jimmyjazz said:

Maybe we're working under different definitions of "timing the market", but in my view it's as simple as going to cash (or short) when conditions warrant.

At any rate, it's hardly a great secret:  a simple moving average crossover strategy historically beats the market.  I pulled this data off a chart of the S&P 500, so it's probably a little inaccurate inasmuch as I didn't take pains to trade the strategy on the EXACT days a crossover occurred.  I am literally too lazy to zoom in on a 25 year chart.  Consider it illustrative.

I used exponential moving averages -- one at 121 days (6 months), one at 252 days (12 months).  The strategy is insanely simple:  go long the market when the shorter moving average is above the longer moving average, and exit the market (to cash) when the longer moving average crosses over the shorter moving average.  For this model, I see 2 such periods from January 1995 until now -- 12/12/2000 through 8/8/2003, and 2/7/2008 through 11/3/2009.  (There is what appears to be a very short exit near the end of 2015 -- I ignored it, which in all likelihood means I didn't account for a small loss.  Sue me.  The right way to do this is to download daily price history to Excel, program the moving averages and the trade rules, and see where you are at the end.  I just don't have it in me to do that right at the moment.)  I selected the start date on a point when the crossover occurred, and I went far enough back in time to get some bear markets included.  Had I just started at the beginning of this latest run since the financial meltdown, buy and hold would come out slightly ahead.  Bear markets happen, though, which is where this kind of approach makes hay.

The results?  Over the last 23.8 years (Jan 1995 until now), this strategy would return ~ 10.5% annualized.  A simple buy and hold strategy would return ~7.8%.  That might not sound like a huge difference, but $100K invested in each strategy at the start would currently be $603K (buy and hold) versus $1.08M (moving average crossover strategy).  If one were to actually short the market instead of going to cash when the signals occur, then this difference would be even greater. 

Of course, many people aren't interested in actively managing their accounts, and I understand that.  One should also consider tax implications if trading in a taxable account.

SPX-MA-XOVER-STRATEGY.jpg

this strategy wouldve incurred 9 transactions/events since October 2018, and wouldve lagged a buy&hold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

this strategy wouldve incurred 9 transactions/events since October 2018, and wouldve lagged a buy&hold.

Uh, what?  Either you don't understand what I posted or you have a typo in your post.  Those 2 moving averages have not crossed (1 transaction) since I made the original post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seriously how am I , a Juliard trained day trader , supposed to have fun on my vacation when the markets keep preventing me from doing so. Just been on the sidelines all day . Still on the sidelines ... I’m not going to try and pick anything right now. Is this panick selling ? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, this is a repricing @UTGrad98

However - you can sell 240 January 22 SPY puts for about $7 at this moment. 

What that means in simple terms is that you would be paid $700 today, and if SPY hits 240 between now and January 22, you would have a round lot of 100 shares of SPY put to you for $24000. 

Sound dangerous? It sort of is, but not as dangerous as it might seem, for a couple of reasons.

First, if the market moves the other direction without hitting 240, the option will become much cheaper much faster as volatility contracts, and you can buy the put back for less than you were paid, and you pocket the difference for having held the risk for a short time. You can also roll it forward, or down (or up) to avoid being assigned shares, or even buy a put below your strike price to limit your downside. This last is called a "vertical put spread", and I used to specialize in this kind of trade when I traded options regularly. This strategy limits the risk you are underwriting , making it a conservative income strategy even in weird market conditions.

But lets say you don't do any of that - let's say you write a put, naked, with unlimited exposure, the market falls,  and the shares are put to you. That means you own a very high quality, diverse, low fee ETF at a discount, in a down market, and you can hold on to it until sale would generate a profit. 

Edited by Bozo_Casanova
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

I think this oil slide is a gift from the heavens.  I got in too early on ESV but I'm just gonna dollar cost average down when I think it's done.

I’ve built a pretty substantial position in ESV.   Starting to add some BP and CRZO for juice. 

 

I love GS grading at 6.2 P/E as well 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yahoo Finance being a touch dramatic with their included picture for this story.

Quote

Dow Jones Falls to Lowest Level in 14 Months, the Wealthy Pulling Out?

91a2eca0-20c5-11e8-a1d4-5f8c5e773d36_Screen-Shot-2018-03-05-at-4-35-33-PM.png.cf.jpg
Joseph Young
CCNDecember 20, 2018
 
 
 
View photos5d46a351410e75ef2ebcf78f0babdbea

For the first time since Oct 2017, the Dow Jones has fallen below 23,000 points and the U.S. stock market is now flirting with a bear market.

Already, according to Sam Stovall, the chief investment strategist at CFRA Research, equity markets are approaching a capitulation phase. While there still isn’t enough data to conclusively state that U.S. markets have entered a bear market, analysts generally believe the Dow Jones and Nasdaq are close to reaching bear market levels in the short-term.

“Equity markets are quickly approaching the capitulation phase after having broken below critical support,” Stovall said.

All Eyes on Interest Rate as Stock Market Falls

Analysts have started to question the strength and the ability of the U.S. market to undergo steep sell-offs that could trigger a long-lasting bear market.

The Federal Reserve’s rate hike, which has made it more expensive for businesses to borrow money and fuel the recovery of the economy, is expected to test the robustness of U.S. markets in the upcoming months.

Echoing the sentiment of CFRA Research executive Sam Stovall, Citi chief global equity strategist Robert Buckland said that equity markets are slowing down and that the stock market is in steep decline.

However, Buckland emphasized that he does not believe it is the Fed’s job to alter its interest rate to rescue the U.S. stock market. The Citi executive explained:

 

Equity markets are starting to think about the likelihood of a slowdown. But, it’s not Powell’s job to make the stock market go up. It’s his job to run monetary policy on a mandate of growth and inflation, and the macroeconomic data is pretty robust.

 

Buckland further added that investors in the market are throwing a “tantrum” after a cycle of easy money and one of the largest bull markets in recent history.

2b9fb5526348cc9f7e406f40ee1d7ee5

From January to December of 2017, the Dow Jones increased from 19,762 points to 24,719 points, by over 25 percent on a yearly basis. He suggested that a correction was due following such a large bull run that occurred last year.

 

“Underlying volatility has moved higher in the last six months. I suspect the market has become addicted to cheap money in this cycle and it’s throwing a tantrum as that’s getting taken away,” noted Buckland.

Road to Recovery

The downtrend of the U.S. stock market has extended to retailers, manufacturers, and virtually every major industry in the country.

While the stock price of tech stocks like Amazon and Apple has fallen by around 30 percent on average, retailers and car manufacturers in the likes of Target, Tiffany, and Ford recorded losses in the range of 30 to 35 percent.

Overseas markets such as Australia, South Korea, and China are also seeing their economies weaken at a fairly rapid rate, with commercial banks struggling in Australia and the unemployment gradually rising in South Korea.

The SSE Composite, which tracks all of the stocks listed on the Shanghai Stock Exchange, has dropped by 28.5 percent since January, directly impacted by the ongoing trade war between the U.S. and China.

Featured image from Shutterstock.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/dow-jones-falls-lowest-level-230124659.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...