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DACA, immigration reform whatever

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2 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

adorable...all illegals are free to the tax payer, who needs a middle class?  Surely the wage gap decreased during Barry right?  Pathetic

California - the Mecca of unchecked illegal immigration spends 1.3 billion over two years in welfare payments for illegal immigrants

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/08/03/la-made-1-3b-in-illegal-immigrant-welfare-payouts-in-just-2-years.html

More Americans leave California each year compared to any other state

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sd-california-losing-low-income-people-gaining-wealthy-people-per-report-20180221-htmlstory.html

California is also in the middle of a homeless crisis......

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-housing-crisis-20180330-story.html

Unchecked illegal immigration has huge consequences half of the people fail to even acknowledge.  If you can't have an honest conversation and include all factors without resorting to emotional antidotes and name calling, then you get where we are now.

California's sanctuary state has demolished their middle class, but the 1% feel altruistic when they are able to create more new "Americans" through open borders while not giving two shits about the middle class.

 

So do you still believe there are no real costs, or is it just completely irresponsible government from the Democrats in California eliminating the middle class and increasing the homeless population exponentially?

I get that some folks feel illegal immigrants are SPOOKY these days. Please note that Trumpism has embraced immigration as an emotional wedge issue to divide our country. Putin did the same thing in his country concerning homosexuals, immigrants, and ethnic minorities. 

First, Trump is pushing the republican party to not just be on a war footing against illegal immigrants but also against legal immigrants. Trumpism is against ALL immigrants.

Second, our country is a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants.  This is who we are. This is our history.  

Third, everyone wants to enforce our immigration laws and all sides feel that our immigration system needs massive reform. There is lots to debate on this issue.

However, I understand that you are concerned by the potential economic impact by illegal immigrants. I hope that this is a legitimate concern for you and not just an emotional appeal to tribalism. 

You provided sources showing that California has a high homeless population and a high level of out-migration. I'm not sure how that is relevant.

Your other source is a Fox News piece seems to cite a few studies. For a more balanced perspective, the below Wikipedia page does a fare job.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

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President Donald Trump said Friday he “certainly won’t sign the more moderate” of two immigration bills going before the House next week ― even though it’s right out of his playbook. 

The president shot down the “compromise” proposal a day after House Republicans began to circulate a draft immigration bill that would give some protections to young undocumented immigrants in exchange for a massive increase in border security spending and a large-scale rollback of protections for asylum seekers and unaccompanied child migrants.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/house-republicans-draft-bill-has-some-help-for-dreamers-lots-of-harm-for-other-immigrants_us_5b22eccfe4b0d4fc01fcd386

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Trump doesn’t want to solve our immigration problems. Immigration is one of the few issues that consistently motivates his base. Trump feels he needs this issue to maximize 2018 turnout and then his 2020 turnout.

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6 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Trump doesn’t want to solve our immigration problems. Immigration is one of the few issues that consistently motivates his base. Trump feels he needs this issue to maximize 2018 turnout and then his 2020 turnout.

If Trump keeps it up, we will have another immigration problem.

 

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17 minutes ago, retread said:

He's too stupid to even see that it's a poison pill aimed at Dems.   It would be nice if this caused the resurrection of the bipartisan bill that House leadership killed. 

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Trump and Sessions separated 2,000 children from their parents in only a six-week period from mid-April to May:

 

WASHINGTON — Nearly 2,000 children have been separated from their families at the U.S. border over a six-week period during a crackdown on illegal entries, according to Department of Homeland Security figures obtained Friday by The Associated Press.

The figures show that 1,995 minors were separated from 1,940 adults from April 19 through May 31. The separations were not broken down by age, and included separations for illegal entry, immigration violations or possible criminal conduct by the adult.

Under a “zero tolerance” policy announced by Attorney General Jeff Sessions, Department of Homeland Security officials are now referring all cases of illegal entry for criminal prosecution. U.S. protocol prohibits detaining children with their parents because the children are not charged with a crime and the parents are.

Sessions announced the effort April 6, and Homeland Security began stepping up referrals in early May, effectively putting the policy into action.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/ap-exclusive-about-2k-minors-separated-from-families/2018/06/15/662721ae-70c5-11e8-b4d8-eaf78d4c544c_story.html

 

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1 minute ago, Mojo Hand said:

Trump and Sessions The Evil Obstructionist Democrats separated 2,000 children from their parents in only a six-week period from mid-April to May despite Trump's hatred of it.

FIFY /Fox News

Edited by Js1

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On 6/11/2018 at 7:00 PM, GW Hayduke said:

I get that some folks feel illegal immigrants are SPOOKY these days. Please note that Trumpism has embraced immigration as an emotional wedge issue to divide our country.

Uhhh....

Both sides, it's not new, etc.

Edited by Equinox

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13 minutes ago, Equinox said:

Uhhh....

Both sides, it's not new, etc.

BoTh SIDeS aRe tHe SaMe is a meme for a reason. It’s a meme because only one side uses it, which gives it ironic humor. It’s a meme because it requires the use of fallacies, both whataboutism and false equivalency. 

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On 6/11/2018 at 7:00 PM, GW Hayduke said:

I get that some folks feel illegal immigrants are SPOOKY these days. Please note that Trumpism has embraced immigration as an emotional wedge issue to divide our country. Putin did the same thing in his country concerning homosexuals, immigrants, and ethnic minorities. 

First, Trump is pushing the republican party to not just be on a war footing against illegal immigrants but also against legal immigrants. Trumpism is against ALL immigrants.

Second, our country is a nation of laws and a nation of immigrants.  This is who we are. This is our history.  

Third, everyone wants to enforce our immigration laws and all sides feel that our immigration system needs massive reform. There is lots to debate on this issue.

However, I understand that you are concerned by the potential economic impact by illegal immigrants. I hope that this is a legitimate concern for you and not just an emotional appeal to tribalism. 

You provided sources showing that California has a high homeless population and a high level of out-migration. I'm not sure how that is relevant.

Your other source is a Fox News piece seems to cite a few studies. For a more balanced perspective, the below Wikipedia page does a fare job.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

Good lord, this idiotic enough to warrant a Billy Madison "At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought..."

Quote

Emotional wedge issue?

Are you new to politics?  Jesus Christ, Adam and Jefferson went back and forth about this.  You would hard pressed to examine every election cycle where this is not a part of the discussion (not just in our country either).  Good god...

Quote

Trumpism is against ALL immigrants

This is a lie.  Bald-faced, bubbling bullshit.  This is yet another example of the disingenuous platitude the left keeps trying to trot out that if you are against illegal immigration you are a bigot, racist, and anti all immigration. 

Quote

everyone wants to enforce our immigration laws

Do you even sanctuary city?  Did you just happen to forget, say recently the Oakland Mayor tipping off illegal immigrants about impending ICE raids?  More than 200 jurisdictions refusing to honor ICE detainer requests brought against individuals charged or convicted of a serious crime.  Not even a decade removed we had Dem leaders openly admitting that low skilled immigrants depressed wages of low-skilled US works....and more importantly, strained America's welfare state.  10 years ago, many Democrats — including, notably, Schumer — would have championed many of the Trump administration’s enforcement proposals, from increased local cooperation with immigration enforcement to a physical barrier on the US/Mexico borderWhy the pivot?  Votes.  This is 100% about votes.  They made the calculations that this gave them an edge in the electoral college.  Remember all that "the GOP is doomed to 40 years of wandering in the desert" bullshit?

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On 6/11/2018 at 7:00 PM, GW Hayduke said:

First, Trump is pushing the republican party to not just be on a war footing against illegal immigrants but also against legal immigrants. Trumpism is against ALL immigrants.

Emphasized for, well, emphasis.

How many years have we listened to their rhetoric of "oh, I don't have any problem with LEGAL immigrants who do it the right way -- I just have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants, because the law!  How dare you call me racist!"?  Seriously, that's been their repeated chorus.  Now, their God-king is repeatedly tweeting about CHANGING the existing law to reduce currently LEGAL immigration.

And it is -- AND ALWAYS WAS -- utter bullshit.  100%, pure-dee bullshit.

They don't want any more dirty brown people coming here.  And if the LEGAL system would allow that to happen, well....then we just need to change that.

Trump and the Trumpkins are what they are, and what they always have been.  I guess the refreshing thing is that they've finally stopped trying to hide it.

Edited by Brisketexan

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36 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If they don't get a handle on this, Donald Trump's separation policy is going to hurt Republicans in a big way this November. 

No they won't.  What y'all fail to understand is that there may be more people who BELIEVE differently than the Trumpists.  But the enthusiasm level is a killer.

E.g., there are 40 million Trumpists, and 60 million folks who disagree with Trumpism.  Trumpists are enthusiastic, and turnout at 80% -- that's 32 million votes.  Opposing folks are of typical American voter enthusiasm, and turn out at a 50% rate -- for 30 million votes.  Trumpism wins.  Trumpism won.  Trumpism will continue to win.  Because the enthusiasm of his folks is off the charts.

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Just now, Brisketexan said:

No they won't.  What y'all fail to understand is that there may be more people who BELIEVE differently than the Trumpists.  But the enthusiasm level is a killer.

E.g., there are 40 million Trumpists, and 60 million folks who disagree with Trumpism.  Trumpists are enthusiastic, and turnout at 80% -- that's 32 million votes.  Opposing folks are of typical American voter enthusiasm, and turn out at a 50% rate -- for 30 million votes.  Trumpism wins.  Trumpism won.  Trumpism will continue to win.  Because the enthusiasm of his folks is off the charts.

I disagree. I think those who oppose Trump are going to vote in droves. I think November is going to be a political bloodbath for Republicans. 

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7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Emphasized for, well, emphasis.

How many years have we listened to their rhetoric of "oh, I don't have any problem with LEGAL immigrants who do it the right way -- I just have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants, because the law!  How dare you call me racist!"?  Seriously, that's been their repeated chorus.

And it is -- AND ALWAYS WAS -- utter bullshit.  100%, pure-dee bullshit.

They don't want any more dirty brown people coming here.  And if the LEGAL system would allow that to happen, well....then we just need to change that.

Trump and the Trumpkins are what they are, and what they always have been.  I guess the refreshing thing is that they've finally stopped trying to hide it.

What should we do?  Open borders?

If you were king, what?

Because there are a shitload of border jumpers.  Go fly any ranch near the border. Or on any rightaway from the border to San Antonio.  I’ve flown a bunch in helicopters doing deer surveys since the mid 90s. And I can tell you the obvious signs of illegals has exploded in the last 10 years.  Makeshift camps and abandoned backpacks and clothes are everywhere now.  It wasn’t that way 25 years ago.  

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Reducing legal immigrants is a logical response when states are refusing to enforce the laws on the books. 

The responisble thing would be to reduce the number 1 to 1 for every “new American” born to foreign parents. 

Increased competion for education, labor, police, health care etc etc - all at the lowest economic level. As Clinton so eloquently pointed out. The people Championing open borders have no skin in this game. Their standard of living will be unchanged while the permantly lock the glass ceiling into place for the lower economic classes. 

Creating a permanent dependent class of individuals tied to your handouts is a terrible strategy for Americans but good for votes for the left. 

Edited by ChickenSandwich

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13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Emphasized for, well, emphasis.

How many years have we listened to their rhetoric of "oh, I don't have any problem with LEGAL immigrants who do it the right way -- I just have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants, because the law!  How dare you call me racist!"?  Seriously, that's been their repeated chorus.  Now, their God-king is repeatedly tweeting about CHANGING the existing law to reduce currently LEGAL immigration.

And it is -- AND ALWAYS WAS -- utter bullshit.  100%, pure-dee bullshit.

They don't want any more dirty brown people coming here.  And if the LEGAL system would allow that to happen, well....then we just need to change that.

Trump and the Trumpkins are what they are, and what they always have been.  I guess the refreshing thing is that they've finally stopped trying to hide it.

Strawman. 

Unless you truly believe no one would have the same problems if illegals had white skin. It’s fear mongering plain and simple. Every bit the plan you keep shrieking that Trump has. 

We have the same problem with the Chinese and Russian maternity “vacations”. 

This is the type of bullshit that ensures the status quo. Grip your foil tight. 

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6 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

What should we do?  Open borders?

If you were king, what?

Because there are a shitload of border jumpers.  Go fly any ranch near the border. Or on any rightaway from the border to San Antonio.  I’ve flown a bunch in helicopters doing deer surveys since the mid 90s. And I can tell you the obvious signs of illegals has exploded in the last 10 years.  Makeshift camps and abandoned backpacks and clothes are everywhere now.  It wasn’t that way 25 years ago.  

You prosecute employers and up the penalties for breaking the law. You have to stop demand for undocumented low-wage labor. 

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3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You prosecute employers and up the penalties for breaking the law. You have to stop demand for undocumented low-wage labor. 

just like we've stopped demand for opoids or cocaine, except profit is the biggest, most addictive drug there is.

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7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

What should we do?  Open borders?

If you were king, what?

Because there are a shitload of border jumpers.  Go fly any ranch near the border. Or on any rightaway from the border to San Antonio.  I’ve flown a bunch in helicopters doing deer surveys since the mid 90s. And I can tell you the obvious signs of illegals has exploded in the last 10 years.  Makeshift camps and abandoned backpacks and clothes are everywhere now.  It wasn’t that way 25 years ago.  

FANTASTIC straw man.  Oh, and it's so original!  I LOVE that there are only two options -- be a fucking Trumpkin, or be for "OPEN BORDERS!!!!!"

I've posted my proposal a dozen times on the old board, I won't rehash it all here.  Short version: robust border enforcement (including enforcement against employers), a reasonable "guest worker" program with fees and electronic tracking, and measures to ensure proper payment of taxes (note that this discourages whole-family migration -- instead, you come, you work, you go home and visit, maybe you come work again, but because you can RETURN home freely and then come back here, you don't need to bring your whole family with you), etc.

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Strawman. 

Unless you truly believe no one would have the same problems if illegals had white skin. It’s fear mongering plain and simple. Every bit the plan you keep shrieking that Trump has. 

We have the same problem with the Chinese and Russian maternity “vacations”. 

This is the type of bullshit that ensures the status quo. Grip your foil tight. 

You buried the lede.  Trumpkins have told us -- literally for years -- that they only had a problem with illegal immigration. Now, they've made it 100% clear that they have a problem with LEGAL immigration as well.  You don't fucking LIE about something unless you're ashamed of the truth.  And Trumpkins (used to be) ashamed of that truth.  Now, they are proud of it.

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24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Trump and the Trumpkins are what they are, and what they always have been.  I guess the refreshing thing is that they've finally stopped trying to hide it.

He has unleashed something in the R party that apparently has always been there. Just a little light racism and rounding up children into prison camps. nbd.

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3 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

just like we've stopped demand for opoids or cocaine, except profit is the biggest, most addictive drug there is.

This might be the best argument against capitalism ever made on this board. Well done.

Edited by David Dennison

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I'm not some self-described Libertarian or Capitalism worshiper, like I think you and others think I am.

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Just now, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I'm not some self-described Libertarian or Capitalism worshiper, like I think you and others think I am.

Well, you made an excellent point. I think the analogy is a little strained, but it's a good one. I'd still like to try. Addicts and drug abusers, particularly the ones who get arrested, often have nothing to lose. Business owners and employers have a lot to lose. Prosecution might be more of a deterrent for them.

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Emphasized for, well, emphasis.

How many years have we listened to their rhetoric of "oh, I don't have any problem with LEGAL immigrants who do it the right way -- I just have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants, because the law!  How dare you call me racist!"?  Seriously, that's been their repeated chorus.  Now, their God-king is repeatedly tweeting about CHANGING the existing law to reduce currently LEGAL immigration.

And it is -- AND ALWAYS WAS -- utter bullshit.  100%, pure-dee bullshit.

They don't want any more dirty brown people coming here.  And if the LEGAL system would allow that to happen, well....then we just need to change that.

Trump and the Trumpkins are what they are, and what they always have been.  I guess the refreshing thing is that they've finally stopped trying to hide it.

I agree with your use of "trumpkin." It is a very important distinction. Their anti-immigrant positions are not held by conservatives or traditional republicans.  See the CATO institute, the Bushes, McCain, McConnell, Romney, and Ryan.  The core conservative actors all support immigration. They know how valuable immigration is to our industries and economy.

The alt-right, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, and Steve Miller wing of the party are leading the charge against immigrant for the trumpkins.  

Racism applies. Xenophobia and nativism may be more accurate.

The MS-13 stories, stories of crimes by "illegals," and false and overblown economic impact stories are all obvious propaganda trying to tap into nativism.  Fox news is full of this. 

Humans evolved into families and tribes so these urges can be very strong. Unfortunately, the biggest counter to nativism and xenophobia are education, life experiences with new people, and traveling to new places. This is why the republican party is susceptible.  

 

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I don't know about you guys, but this is sure as shit not evil at all and only MAGAs!

 

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If you think we haven't taken a few steps toward rounding up of political dissidents (American citizens), you're kidding yourself.

It's not gonna happen this weekend, but who here thought that it would become a possiblity?

Edited by retread

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23 minutes ago, Equinox said:

35306069_1667114310083243_91866498689054

Yeah I remember that quite differently. I don't know anyone who cheered that. Quite the contrary, actually. They took a lot of criticism for how that was handled. 

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Keep them together on the Mexican side of the border until their court date comes up. Also, releasing them into the US and telling them to show up to court a year or two later is ridiculous. 

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This Bill Clinton loving Democrat didn't fucking cheer - I was super pissed at how that was handled by Reno and Clinton.

Too bad I didn't have Twitter and a Meme Generator back then to really make a difference.

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And let's Google "democratic party reaction to Elian Gonzalez", shall we?  Lets.

All of these are from contemporaneous sources.

Quote

In Union City, New Jersey, home of the second-largest Cuban-American community in the U.S., Rep. Robert Menendez, D-NJ, decried what he called a despicable use of force.

"To take a child out at gunpoint in the middle of the night, awakened in his sleep, with masks on, reminds me of the tactics of Castro's dictatorship," said Menendez, a frequent critic of the Cuban leader who had been involved in negotiations to peacefully reunite Elian with his father.

Quote

The American public remains convinced that Elian Gonzalez, the six-year-old Cuban boy who is caught in an international tug-of-war between the U.S. and Cuba, should be returned to his father in Cuba. Not only do Americans agree with the Justice Department decision to return him, a majority also think it is in the best interest of the boy that he return. Only 31% of Americans say that a decision on his return should be delayed until after a family custody hearing, and fewer than four in 10 favor a Congressional law that would grant him permanent residency status in the U.S.

Quote

The venom between the parties has poisoned the atmosphere in Washington and further soured the public on the political process.

Once again we confront a situation in which a large majority of Americans parts company with the majority leadership in Congress. Most people view the Elian Gonzalez melodrama through distinctly nonpolitical lenses. While sympathetic with the feelings of his Miami family, they believe the 6-year-old boy belongs with his father.

They are offended that political agendas intrude on what they view as largely a personal, family matter. They are also weary of a story that seemed to have had no end in sight, and relieved that Attorney General Reno took decisive action to end the standoff with no injury. And they are sickened by the transparently partisan and ideological broadside against her and others who took responsibility for returning Elian to his father.

Quote

"Republicans are better off not paying too much attention to it," says Sal Russo, a GOP consultant in California. "Most Americans see this as a family issue, unhappy with the way it proceeded but happy with reuniting the boy and his father."

And since the Elian deal was actually about REUNITING a family and not ripping one apart - which is what is currently happening - your cute little hot take meme is breathtakingly stupid and shallow.

 

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1 hour ago, Bama Chick said:

And let's Google "democratic party reaction to Elian Gonzalez", shall we?  Lets.

All of these are from contemporaneous sources.

And since the Elian deal was actually about REUNITING a family and not ripping one apart - which is what is currently happening - your cute little hot take meme is breathtakingly stupid and shallow.

 

Lol his mom was trying to get into the country with him. She drowned in the attempt. He was placed with family members in America. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it? 

 

Maybe Trump should recruit Bill and Janet to run the immigration program.

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2 minutes ago, Equinox said:

Lol his mom was trying to get into the country with him. She drowned in the attempt. He was placed with family members in America. But that doesn't fit your narrative, does it? 

 

Maybe Trump should recruit Bill and Janet to run the immigration program.

And returned to his father. 

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

And returned to his father. 

After this latest round of illegals get shipped back to their home countries, their kids can be reunited in the same manner. 

So what are you bitching about?

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1 minute ago, Equinox said:

After this latest round of illegals get shipped back to their home countries, their kids can be reunited in the same manner. 

So what are you bitching about?

They are being separated from their parents. That's not what happened in the Elian Gonzales case. In fact, just the opposite.

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4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They are being separated from their parents. 

Thanks Obama.

Edited by Equinox

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I ain't about to rehash the Elian mess - I already stated I did not agree with Clinton and Reno.

I was just pointing out the laziness of "arguing" with a misleading meme (that was probably put together at a Russian troll farm).

You're being disingenuous and engaging in pointless whataboutism.

If you think snatching babies and children up and away from their parents and locking them up in Wal-Mart internment camps is completely fine and in line with Republican and American values, then own it.  Don't deflect and don't justify it with bullshit.

You know it's wrong and abhorrent but you can't help but reflexively and instinctually back your orange buffoon of a cult leader so you engage in the kind of garbage you've displayed on this page. 

Edited by Bama Chick

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8 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

I ain't about to rehash the Elian mess - I already stated I did not agree with Clinton and Reno.

I was just pointing out the laziness of "arguing" with a misleading meme (that was probably put together at a Russian troll farm).

You're being disingenuous and engaging in pointless whataboutism.

If you think snatching babies and children up and away from their parents and locking them up in Wal-Mart internment camps is completely fine and in line with Republican and American values, then own it.  Don't deflect and don't justify it with bullshit.

You know it's wrong and abhorrent but you can't help but reflexively and instinctually back your orange buffoon of a cult leader so you engage in the kind of garbage you've displayed on this page. 

It's very simple- don't try to come into the country illegally, and your family won't be separated.

I eagerly await your next faux outrage.

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3 minutes ago, Equinox said:

It's very simple- don't try to come into the country illegally, and your family won't be separated.

I eagerly await your next faux outrage.

Many of these people are seeking asylum. They aren't coming here illegally.

Edited by David Dennison

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