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Chicago cops murder 13 year old point blank


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How would stricter gun control prevented that kid from carrying? It's not as if he didn't know he was too young to legally carry a handgun.
Maybe we should address the socioeconomic issues that led to him having a gun in the first place? Addressing the root cause of the issue seems like a novel approach. I'm interested to hear why you think he had a gun?
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Just now, Hmbre97 said:
32 minutes ago, immortal13 said:
How would stricter gun control prevented that kid from carrying? It's not as if he didn't know he was too young to legally carry a handgun.

Maybe we should address the socioeconomic issues that led to him having a gun in the first place? Addressing the root cause of the issue seems like a novel approach. I'm interested to hear why you think he had a gun?

I don't know why he had a gun. Why don't you tell me?

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6 minutes ago, immortal13 said:

Oh I took no offense, man. Just had that question pop into my head when I read your post. Would any type of new control legislation have prevented this kid from packing that gun around and hence prevented this tragic incident? 

And yes it's essentially a rhetorical question because we all already know the answer. 

I don't think we do know the answer. Let's not pretend like this kid is buying that firearm legally. He isn't. There's a lack of control that leads to individuals like him possessing firearms in areas that are already unstable and at risk for these types of incidents. 

What is the legislation that should be enacted? I'm not sure. But the proliferation of firearms and consequent firearm related deaths in America is insane. And it's been insane for decades. 

Is private firearm ownership the root cause? Maybe - but I sure hope not. I guess that I think that as a society we can protect 2nd amendment rights without sacrificing reasonable gun safety. But maybe that's too much of an ask. 

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7 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Sad story.  I'm pretty sure that my parents would have objected to my 13 year old self from hanging out with 19 year old gang bangers, but that's just me and my old nostalgic self.

Lol.  You listened to your parents?  God damn, if every kid listened when their parents ‘objected’.  Imagine if they strenuously objected?  Lol

 

STFU

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1 minute ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Lol.  You listened to your parents?  God damn, if every kid listened when their parents ‘objected’.  Imagine if they strenuously objected?  Lol

 

STFU

Seriously?  The 19 year old had the live gun.  It was his gun that got the kid killed.  IMHO, there is no objective way to say that LEO did anything wrong in this situation.  

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5 minutes ago, DalTxHornFan said:

Seriously?  The 19 year old had the live gun.  It was his gun that got the kid killed.  IMHO, there is no objective way to say that LEO did anything wrong in this situation.  

The kid followed the cop's exact instructions and the cop still shot him. Objectively, that means the cop absolutely fucked up somewhere in that process.

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9 hours ago, tchookem said:
9 hours ago, Parliament said:
Cop made a huge mistake of course, but I don't see a crime here.

I'm not sure how making a mistake that ends a person's life isn't a crime. I understand arguing degrees of crime, but if you end a person's life and it isn't self defense... it's a crime.

This should be blindingly fucking obvious to anyone who isn’t a complete bootlicker. Nobody else gets a free pass to kill people so long as they say “ooopsy, I screwed up!”

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22 minutes ago, troph said:

Fuck all of this and fuck white people who explain why this kid doesn’t have a right to a trial by jury when he does what the police ask of him when he’s confronted.  That’s pure racism. It’s the fucking definition of racism. 

god dammit people. 

I don’t think I’ve seen this posted anywhere fwiw. 

It’s just a tragic accident where there is fault on both sides, suspect and cop. Unfortunately when two people have a confrontation, both with weapons, sometimes one person walks away.

Also, from the longer video you can tell this cop tried to do everything he could to help. This isn’t something the cop wanted to live with, for certain. 

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11 minutes ago, Enchubben said:

I don’t think I’ve seen this posted anywhere fwiw. 

It’s just a tragic accident where there is fault on both sides, suspect and cop. Unfortunately when two people have a confrontation, both with weapons, sometimes one person walks away.

Also, from the longer video you can tell this cop tried to do everything he could to help. This isn’t something the cop wanted to live with, for certain. 

You just did what I said. The moment he complies he has a right to be sure he won’t be killed. Full stop. There is nothing else to say and not a single fact in the universe of scenarios that would change this. It’s an unwavering principle of the rule of law.  Hands up, comply with police orders, you get arrested not executed.

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8 minutes ago, troph said:

You just did what I said. The moment he complies he has a right to be sure he won’t be killed. Full stop. There is nothing else to say and not a single fact in the universe of scenarios that would change this. It’s an unwavering principle of the rule of law.  Hands up, comply with police orders, you get arrested not executed.

No it’s not what I said. He shouldn’t have been shot - I agree. Based on what I’ve seen so far it doesn’t look like the officer chased him with the intent of killing him for whatever happened prior to the chase. It was a result of him thinking he had a gun and was turning to shoot not putting his hands up and complying.

No one is claiming the kid got a fair deal because he’s guilty of something else. But sometimes you get dealt a shitty hand when you put yourself in a bad position like running from a cop with a gun.  Cop should be held accountable for the kids death. 

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1 hour ago, RPM said:

I did and it wasn't hard. He was a little assassin that held on to the gun too long. Clean shoot. This is on the parents, not the police.

You don't seem like you actually watched it. Please explain how this sequence of events means the police bear no responsibility.

"Freeze!"

***freezes***

"Turn around and show me your hands!"

***turns around and begins raising his empty hands to show them to the police***

***follows the police instructions to the letter***

***gets shot before his hands are all the way up***

***dies***

Let's be perfectly clear about something, the officer who gave the instructions screwed up very badly. It was one of the dumbest things he could have possibly done and contributed to the death because his instructions directly created the situation where he felt he had to shoot. It's not that hard to figure out, just run a simple thought exercise. In what scenario would his instructions not have resulted in a death? I can't think of any.

  1. Kid drops gun before turning around. This actually happened. Kid is dead.
  2. Kid freezes, doesn't drop gun before following instruction. In this scenario the kid would have turned around and faced the officers with a gun in his hand. He would have been shot dead.
  3. Kid isn't just trying to be cool with a gun but actually wants to shoot someone. In this scenario the officer is instructing the person to do exactly what he would have to do in order to shoot the police officers. He gets shot dead and possibly shoots an officer in the process.
  4. Kid disobeys instructions and starts running away again. This is the only scenario in which he possibly survives, although I think that's very unlikely. That shot was so quick that any sudden movement would have gotten the kid shot.

There are only two possibilities for why that instruction was given. Either that officer was incredibly stupid and gave a terrible instruction that guaranteed someone was going to die or else the officer was incredibly smart and intentionally gave an instruction that guaranteed someone was going to die. What the officer did when giving that instruction was either incredibly dumb or incredibly evil. There are no other possibilities. He created a situation where the only chance the person receiving his instructions had to survive was to disobey them.

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On 4/16/2021 at 9:00 AM, Huckleberry said:

You don't seem like you actually watched it. Please explain how this sequence of events means the police bear no responsibility.

"Freeze!"

***freezes***

"Turn around and show me your hands!"

***turns around and begins raising his empty hands to show them to the police***

***follows the police instructions to the letter***

***gets shot before his hands are all the way up***

***dies***

Let's be perfectly clear about something, the officer who gave the instructions screwed up very badly. It was one of the dumbest things he could have possibly done and contributed to the death because his instructions directly created the situation where he felt he had to shoot. It's not that hard to figure out, just run a simple thought exercise. In what scenario would his instructions not have resulted in a death? I can't think of any.

  1. Kid drops gun before turning around. This actually happened. Kid is dead.
  2. Kid freezes, doesn't drop gun before following instruction. In this scenario the kid would have turned around and faced the officers with a gun in his hand. He would have been shot dead.
  3. Kid isn't just trying to be cool with a gun but actually wants to shoot someone. In this scenario the officer is instructing the person to do exactly what he would have to do in order to shoot the police officers. He gets shot dead and possibly shoots an officer in the process.

There are only two possibilities for why that instruction was given. Either that officer was incredibly stupid and gave a terrible instruction that guaranteed someone was going to die or else the officer was incredibly smart and intentionally gave an instruction that guaranteed someone was going to die. What the officer did when giving that instruction was either incredibly dumb or incredibly evil. There are not other possibilities.

Kid fires 8 rounds, police pursue and gun is clearly visible in his hand. They order order him to stop, he complies but ditches the weapon behind his back out of sight of the police. There was .8 seconds between the gun being visible and his rapid arm movement from behind his back. Literally a split-second decision. Kid should have dropped the gun during the chase, froze or just maybe not have one to begin with. I have no problems with this shoot and I'm not a cop fanboi.

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2 minutes ago, RPM said:

Kid fires 8 rounds, police pursue and gun is clearly visible in his hand. They order order him to stop, he complies but ditches the weapon behind his back out of sight of the police. There was .08 seconds between the gun being visible and his rapid arm movement from behind his back. Literally a split-second decision. Kid should have dropped the gun during the chase, froze or just maybe not have one to begin with. I have no problems with this shoot and I'm not a cop fanboi.

The kid didn't fire any rounds. You have no idea what you're talking about and should start over.

And you completely ignored the part where the arm movement (which wasn't rapid) was specifically commanded by the officer.

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1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

And you completely ignored the part where the arm movement (which wasn't rapid) was specifically commanded by the officer.

I watched the video and ignored nothing. Darwin won.

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1 hour ago, RPM said:

I did and it wasn't hard. He was a little assassin that held on to the gun too long. Clean shoot. This is on the parents, not the police.

Is clean shoot some meme I'm unaware of? 

Is this kid even a person of color? I don't see how race is a factor in this case. The cops orders were incredibly dumb, the kid complied (too quickly I guess!), the cop over reacted and needs to face consequences. His mistake was perhaps due to insufficient training. Maybe his chief should go without pay for a bit too.

I'm just tired of all these videos of cops proactively defending themselves. There's got to be a reasonable way to address that.

 

 

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9 hours ago, immortal13 said:

How would stricter gun control prevented that kid from carrying? It's not as if he didn't know he was too young to legally carry a handgun.

He had a gun because he belonged to a Latin Street Gang - the Latin Kings.  That also doesn't mean he should have been killed either.  

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4 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

I think that issue is a major factor in why these cops react like they do - they are scared.

The cop knew he had a gun.

While the kid was running, he wasn't turning and firing. Cop can not and should not shoot at that point.

Suddenly, the kid stops, tosses something behind the fence, turns toward the officer and brings his hands up.

Officer had a fraction of a second, in a dark alley, to decide if the kid still had the gun, and whether he was raising his hands to fire, or raising his hands to surrender.

He guessed wrong.

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

The cop knew he had a gun.

While the kid was running, he wasn't turning and firing. Cop can not and should not shoot at that point.

Suddenly, the kid stops, tosses something behind the fence, turns toward the officer and brings his hands up.

Officer had a fraction of a second, in a dark alley, to decide if the kid still had the gun, and whether he was raising his hands to fire, or raising his hands to surrender.

He guessed wrong.

Look, another poster who's ignoring the fact that the kid turned toward the officer and brought his hands up because that's what the officer told him to do.

Any opinion on that aspect of the situation?

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5 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Look, another poster who's ignoring the fact that the kid turned toward the officer and brought his hands up because that's what the officer told him to do.

Any opinion on that aspect of the situation?

Guessing the officer should have stated MORE specifically = "turn around slowly with your hands already up" to avoid what happened with the kid turning around quickly showing the officer the gun in his right hand right before he turned round while raising his hands up towards the officer and giving the officer less than 1 second to determine if the gun holding kid was going to shoot at him

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5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

what are the odds of even limited success in either legislation

Legislation, pretty good chance. 
 

5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

execution

Lol. 
 

There are plenty of cities that allow guns but don’t have rampant gun violence like Chicago. So why is the answer to take guns away? 

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1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

Look, another poster who's ignoring the fact that the kid turned toward the officer and brought his hands up because that's what the officer told him to do.

Any opinion on that aspect of the situation?

As stated, he chose wrong - not a righteous shooting, but you can see the obscured arm behind the fence from the video.  Curious if a GSR swab will produce any prior shots fired by the child and the proximity of spent shells to the site.  

After the officer's commands, the kid, with his back to the officer, makes two furtive turns to his left. In one frame the gun is in his right hand. He then tosses it behind the fence and continues turning to his left to face the officer while bringing his hands up. As his hands come up about chest level the officer fires a shot. In that freeze frame the kid's hands are empty.

So yes technically the kid turned around and put his hands up. Unfortunately he started that with a gun visible in his hand. You'd have to have the reaction time of a computer or willing to get shot to determine the kid went from armed to unarmed in half a second. Tragic all around.  

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Legislation, pretty good chance. 
 

Lol. 
 

There are plenty of cities that allow guns but don’t have rampant gun violence like Chicago. So why is the answer to take guns away? 

Which cities?  Per capita stats please. 
 

if you want to reduce gun violence, making guns illegal won’t do it. The people that commit gun violence will have little issues getting guns illegally. So the only next step would be to make them unavailable by taking them all, including yours and mine. And that...won’t be happening.

i guess you could make everyone well off financially and stable emotionally and that would also reduce gun violence.  So sure let’s try that. 

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Just now, SimonBolivar said:

Its on the parents, the kid, and the cop. Life doesn't have to be and often isn't black and white. 

 

If the first two would have acted responsibly, the third would never been involved.

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2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Which cities?  Per capita stats please. 
 

if you want to reduce gun violence, making guns illegal won’t do it. The people that commit gun violence will have little issues getting guns illegally. So the only next step would be to make them unavailable by taking them all, including yours and mine. And that...won’t be happening.

i guess you could make everyone well off financially and stable emotionally and that would also reduce gun violence.  So sure let’s try that. 

You want to really make a dent on gun violence?  End the stupid war on drugs.  Legalize all drugs.  Spend the money treating addicts.  Release all nonviolent offenders, clear their records, and restore their civil rights.  With all that extra prison space, warehouse violent criminals for long sentences.  And any dickhead that commits a violent crime with a gun, guarantee them multi decade sentences without parole.  So when they get out they are like Red and too old to be much of a threat.

Banning bump stocks and suppressors doesn't do shit.  Banning scary black rifles won't do shit -- maybe 1% of gun murders are committed with scary black rifles. What I propose would do shit.  It would stop a lot of the violence, cost less and make society much safer for the average citizen and for citizens living in inner city war zones.

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Just now, Johnny Sack said:

You want to really make a dent on gun violence?  End the stupid war on drugs.  Legalize all drugs.  Spend the money treating addicts.  Release all nonviolent offenders, clear their records, and restore their civil rights.  With all that extra prison space, warehouse violent criminals for long sentences.  And any dickhead that commits a violent crime with a gun, guarantee them multi decade sentences without parole.  So when they get out they are like Red and too old to be much of a threat.

Banning bump stocks and suppressors doesn't do shit.  Banning scary black rifles won't do shit -- maybe 1% of gun murders are committed with scary black rifles. What I propose would do shit.  It would stop a lot of the violence, cost less and make society much safer for the average citizen and for citizens living in inner city war zones.

I’m happy to support that

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10 hours ago, fattyflattie said:

Personally, I’d love it if we could fix the violence there, and several other cities including Houston’s recent rise in murder rates.  But forget about the 20-50 people who will be shot there over the next few weeks, let’s talk about banning suppressors and 15 round mags.  
 

 

You are right. In addition to banning suppressors and 15 round mags, we should also ban handguns. Couldn't agree more.

 

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Just now, High Plains Drifter said:

 

You are right. In addition to banning suppressors and 15 round mags, we should also ban handguns. Couldn't agree more.

 

Then push for this.  Get your candidates to run on a 'zero pistol platform'.  At least be transparent and clear about intentions and be open to pushback and discussion.

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19 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You want to really make a dent on gun violence?  End the stupid war on drugs.  Legalize all drugs.  Spend the money treating addicts.  Release all nonviolent offenders, clear their records, and restore their civil rights.  With all that extra prison space, warehouse violent criminals for long sentences.  And any dickhead that commits a violent crime with a gun, guarantee them multi decade sentences without parole.  So when they get out they are like Red and too old to be much of a threat.

Banning bump stocks and suppressors doesn't do shit.  Banning scary black rifles won't do shit -- maybe 1% of gun murders are committed with scary black rifles. What I propose would do shit.  It would stop a lot of the violence, cost less and make society much safer for the average citizen and for citizens living in inner city war zones.

You had me, then you lost me.

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