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Perpetual Middle East Geopolitical Quagmire Megathread


Hugo Stiglitz

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3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

 

   3 hours ago,  Nice Guy Eddie said: 

I’m shocked if there is audio/video of the guy being tortured and killed.  Whoever leaked out that recording better look out.

I dunno, I doubt the Turks would risk an international incident if they weren’t being truthful. 

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Did a large procession wave their torches as his head fell in the basket?

The trick was to get him into an embassy or consulate.  Home field advantage.  And Khashoggi knew it was a risk.  So he went in with his Apple watch recording it and maybe more if he had help.

I would have called a security expert before I walked onto KSA property as a just in case to cover my ass.  Knowing that he had friends listening, he probably did tell the interrogator his mother fucks goats.  His expert passes it to the Turks.  He knew he was dead, but the story would get out.  He's a martyr.

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4 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

Jesus. This is horrifying if true.

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The Saudis (MBS) WANT people to know this.  The message is more important than the murder.  Bash the King in the press and get the bone saw. 

It’s the same reason Putin uses very specific chemical weapons to kill his traitors abroad.  

He wants everyone to know it was him.

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3 minutes ago, LongestHorn said:

If that is true, KSA would have recorded the killing and have recordings.  I don't believe they knew the Turks were listening.

Why did they do this at the consulate? 

If they really wanted plausible deniability, why not just black bag kidnap him off the street and “interrogate” him at the Motel 6? 

This was intentionally done under the roof of the Saudi government for a reason. 

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5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Never trust Erdogan but I’m not sure what his significance would be in this.

You are asking what the potential role of Erdogan is in a situation playing out in the Saudi consulate in Turkey where the narrative of what took place is being crafted by the Turkish intelligence agency? 

To be clear, I don't see any reason to disbelieve the Turkish intelligence.  I don't think they would be making strong moves like they are without ironclad evidence. But I do think that we should question their angle here and be alert. 

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3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You are asking what the potential role of Erdogan is in a situation playing out in the Saudi consulate in Turkey where the narrative of what took place is being crafted by the Turkish intelligence agency? 

To be clear, I don't see any reason to disbelieve the Turkish intelligence.  I don't think they would be making strong moves like they are without ironclad evidence. But I do think that we should question their angle here and be alert. 

I’m asking what is the significance.

Whether or not Erdogan had a role in any of this isn’t really debatable, of course he did.  He at least had a hand in crafting/leaking the initial narrative. 

I don’t know why that’s important or what angle, if any he’s going for other than authoritarian gonna authoritarian.

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48 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

Yeah, the Saudis recorded it to show the prince the dirty work. Somehow the Turks tapped into that recording. Those details are too realistic for me to think they were made up. 

Or we or the brits did. They have one hell of a listening post in Cyprus. we might have one or two in the region. 

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2 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I’m asking what is the significance.

Whether or not Erdogan had a role in any of this isn’t really debatable, of course he did.  He at least had a hand in crafting/leaking the initial narrative. 

I don’t know why that’s important or what angle, if any he’s going for other than authoritarian gonna authoritarian.

well see, there was this thing called the Ottoman Empire. And if you have spent anytime working in the Arab/Ottoman world you would know their perception on history is a tad bit different than ours. Erdogan wants to rebuild his empire. The Saudi's kind of block the way. They are not friends and never have been. 

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34 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

well see, there was this thing called the Ottoman Empire. And if you have spent anytime working in the Arab/Ottoman world you would know their perception on history is a tad bit different than ours. Erdogan wants to rebuild his empire. The Saudi's kind of block the way. They are not friends and never have been. 

They are rivals for sure but they both go out of their way not to upset the other. 

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3 minutes ago, Parliament said:

I'm wondering the same. I'm not saying they're lying, but I'd like to get it from more than a "Turkish source."

 

I’m trying to figure out what you think might be going on?

Erdogan is only going to make moves that make him stronger and his opponents weaker. 

It’s that simple 

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I think they killed him. But I want a better source than the one sited in those screenshots.

Question. If a crime was committed there, do Turkish police, Interpol or whoever, have the legal right to a search warrant? If he was chopped all up, there's no way they could clean it up. That place would absolutely GLOW under a black light.

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1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

They are rivals for sure but they both go out of their way not to upset the other. 

nah, they don't, you just rarely hear about it in the US press. 

Ever wonder why the Saudi opposition in Syria never was given sanctuary in Turkey? Every hear about the battle for the Bosnian minds after the break up of Yugoslavia? 

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4 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Imagine thinking to yourself, “I really miss Rex Tillerson as Secretary of State.”

because that’s where we are now.

 

Or the saudis could let an uninterested party complete the investigation.  The saudis will just pay everyone off because the king wants his son to be the next king.  

Interesting theory above that it’s not a mistake that this info was released and the saudis wanted it to unfold this way.  The only part I think doesn’t fit with this theory is the timing right before their international conference and their changing story.

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As is always the case, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported. It turns out that Khashoggi, who is a relative of the infamous arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, was part of the old-line faction of Saudi royalty who pimped extremist Wahabbism, and was himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood that has as its central tenet rabid anti-western and anti-modernity worldview. As, for lack of a better word, "progressive" as the KSA can be for a medieval society, the new prince (who is a millennial and a big fan of Silicon Valley high tech) represents a direct threat to that.

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9 hours ago, Parliament said:

I think they killed him. But I want a better source than the one sited in those screenshots.

Question. If a crime was committed there, do Turkish police, Interpol or whoever, have the legal right to a search warrant? If he was chopped all up, there's no way they could clean it up. That place would absolutely GLOW under a black light.

I learned all I know about crime scene investigation from CSI Miami, but no. Local LEOs can't enter or get a warrant to enter Consulates and Embassies.  Its foreign soil. Consul/ambassador has to invite them.  But if you have Horatio Caine on your team, he can trick them into doing this. 

Only local recourse under international norms when the order clearly came from the top is diplomatic expulsion. Of course, they could raid the consulate anyway breaking all types of international agreements in the process. 

Thats one reason to do it in the consulate rather than in the back of a halal butcher shop. 

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As is always the case, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported. It turns out that Khashoggi, who is a relative of the infamous arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, was part of the old-line faction of Saudi royalty who pimped extremist Wahabbism, and was himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood that has as its central tenet rabid anti-western and anti-modernity worldview. As, for lack of a better word, "progressive" as the KSA can be for a medieval society, the new prince (who is a millennial and a big fan of Silicon Valley high tech) represents a direct threat to that.
This is another thread but I don't think that's a fair take on the Muslim Brotherhood. I find it suspicious the narrative you just gave is being pushed by the antimuslim right.
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4 minutes ago, horncyclist said:

This is another thread but I don't think that's a fair take on the Muslim Brotherhood. I find it suspicious the narrative you just gave is being pushed by the antimuslim right.

The “narrative” I’m pushing is that there’s no clear cut good guys and bad guys in this story.  And as far as your assertion that being critical of the MB is somehow “antimuslim”, wow.

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26 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

 

Thats one reason to do it in the consulate rather than in the back of a halal butcher shop. 

yeah, but a lot harder to monitor all them damn butcher shops whereas there are a shit load of cameras, and probably people, watching that consulate. 

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The “narrative” I’m pushing is that there’s no clear cut good guys and bad guys in this story.  And as far as your assertion that being critical of the MB is somehow “antimuslim”, wow.
I'm just having trouble sorting it out and the only sources I see questioning Kasshogi are right wing. And if Kasshogi was a bad guy, murdering him as a state actor in the way they did places the Saudis on the wrong side of this. I've been an MBS fan but he fucked up here.
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1 minute ago, horncyclist said:
18 minutes ago, A Cellar Honker said:
The “narrative” I’m pushing is that there’s no clear cut good guys and bad guys in this story.  And as far as your assertion that being critical of the MB is somehow “antimuslim”, wow.

I'm just having trouble sorting it out and the only sources I see questioning Kasshogi are right wing. And if Kasshogi was a bad guy, murdering him as a state actor in the way they did places the Saudis on the wrong side of this. I've been an MBS fan but he fucked up here.

I get what you’re saying.  Unfortunately, facts are in short supply now.  I’m going to wait and see.

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26 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Perhaps, but how many Saudi friendly butcher shops are there in Turkey?

Probably one or two. Useful for moving fucktards and information across the region and are part of the Hawala system for moving cash. You could tell who was backing the ones in Sarajevo (Saudi, Turk, Iran) by the posters and images on the calendars. 

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3 hours ago, A Cellar Honker said:

As is always the case, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported. It turns out that Khashoggi, who is a relative of the infamous arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, was part of the old-line faction of Saudi royalty who pimped extremist Wahabbism, and was himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood that has as its central tenet rabid anti-western and anti-modernity worldview. As, for lack of a better word, "progressive" as the KSA can be for a medieval society, the new prince (who is a millennial and a big fan of Silicon Valley high tech) represents a direct threat to that.

Did you cut and paste that from the far right blog Ace of Spades? 

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3 hours ago, A Cellar Honker said:

As is always the case, there's a lot more to the story than what's being reported. It turns out that Khashoggi, who is a relative of the infamous arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, was part of the old-line faction of Saudi royalty who pimped extremist Wahabbism, and was himself a member of the Muslim Brotherhood that has as its central tenet rabid anti-western and anti-modernity worldview. As, for lack of a better word, "progressive" as the KSA can be for a medieval society, the new prince (who is a millennial and a big fan of Silicon Valley high tech) represents a direct threat to that.

What are him being related to adnan khoshaggi, which I don’t know if true or not?  There must be some reason why that is thrown in as a fact but there isn’t a conclusion. Is he guilty by some type of association?

 

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16 hours ago, Anastasis said:

You are asking what the potential role of Erdogan is in a situation playing out in the Saudi consulate in Turkey where the narrative of what took place is being crafted by the Turkish intelligence agency? 

To be clear, I don't see any reason to disbelieve the Turkish intelligence.  I don't think they would be making strong moves like they are without ironclad evidence. But I do think that we should question their angle here and be alert. 

Stop thinking like a western european/american.

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