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Nueces River Rat

Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

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On 3/10/2019 at 10:38 AM, Pato del Muerto said:

Getting on, or in rather, a couple of planes today. Glad the crash is out of the way, the odds of two crashes in one day seem remote. 

the-world-according-to-garp-750.jpg

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Buddy of mine was training United pilots on how to fly the 787 when it was brand new. He got me in the simulator at IAH. With zero flying experience, I was able to taxi to the runway, take off, fly to downtown Houston, then land. Over course he was standing right behind me telling me what to do. It seemed awfully easy though. Of course I wasn’t dealing with any abnormal circumstances. 
I shot this video of my other buddy landing the same simulator:
My landing was smoother than this one. Once on the runway though, I forgot (until reminded) that I needed to steer with my feet. Made things a bit interesting careening down the runway swaying left and right.
Captain Obvious: flying the sim was awesome, unbelievably realistic.
Random Fact: the steering wheel used to steer the plane out to the runway was this tiny little thing about the size of a door knob. 
Bernard



50
40
30
....uhhh is this guy gonna flare?
20
....*Jonesy “This ones gonna be close!”
10
...*BAM*

LIKE A GLOVE!

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10 hours ago, Bernard said:

Buddy of mine was training United pilots on how to fly the 787 when it was brand new. He got me in the simulator at IAH. With zero flying experience, I was able to taxi to the runway, take off, fly to downtown Houston, then land. Over course he was standing right behind me telling me what to do. It seemed awfully easy though. Of course I wasn’t dealing with any abnormal circumstances. 

I shot this video of my other buddy landing the same simulator:

My landing was smoother than this one. Once on the runway though, I forgot (until reminded) that I needed to steer with my feet. Made things a bit interesting careening down the runway swaying left and right.

Captain Obvious: flying the sim was awesome, unbelievably realistic.

Random Fact: the steering wheel used to steer the plane out to the runway was this tiny little thing about the size of a door knob. 

Bernard

Slightly cooler than Microsoft FS10.

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Slightly cooler than Microsoft FS10.


When dad was stationed at Whiteman I got a chance to fly the unclassified B2 simulator...I did a lot worse than that, crashing into a KC-135 trying to refuel and landed way long as the ground effects are unbelievable in that thing.

The graphics were below FSX by a long shot but having a fully functioning array of instrumentation made it an incredible experience.

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Stock market indicator says - Sum ting wong,
Long term investor looking at current stock price - Ho Lee Fuk & Wi Tu Lo

Bang Ding Ow - is the sound of your mutual fund that is holding BA stock
 

 

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23 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

What the hell did everyone do? Surely a handful of people ended up shitting in vomit bags, right?

Nah. It was only a problem for the last 2-3 hours, and many were asleep for much of it.  They said they discussed a diverted landing with ground people and delta people, but didn’t do it because the closest airport was Shannon, Ireland and it was only 25 more minutes to get all the way to London.  I suspect the nearest terminal shitter had an activity spike, however.  No accidents that I saw. 

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1 hour ago, Wally Fairway said:

Stock market indicator says - Sum ting wong,
Long term investor looking at current stock price - Ho Lee Fuk & Wi Tu Lo

Bang Ding Ow - is the sound of your mutual fund that is holding BA stock
 

 

Yep.  

I still think Boeing flunked PR 101 with this incident coming only months after a similar one with a new plane.  If another one falls from the sky, all chit is going to hit the fan.  And if it occurs in the States,  the chit is going to hit one of those Big Ass industrial like fans you see at shops or gyms.  

If kind of reminds my of the Ford Explorer defects in the late 90's/ Early Y2K time frame where the tires were found to be an issue, but Ford nor Firestone would take any responsibility.    Ford ended up taking more of a black eye because one of their better selling vehicles at the time went to zero production at the end of the day and Ford had to play catch up on the small to medium SUV development as that was the period when it started to ramp up in the auto world and Ford nearly went bankrupt.  

Here,  Boeing is kind of making it appear it's more on the airline level vs something possibly  wrong with their plane.  Wise move would be to have them all grounded for a short period of time and have them inspected and if overrides  have to be installed, then do it along with the requisite  training and all that.  If another crash occurs, it's not going  to be pretty for the company and the stock will really be a bargain  and Airbus will be waiting to scoop up the canceled orders.  

 

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5 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

 I just saw this on my Facebook feed

Boeing says to upgrade software in 737 Max 8 fleet in weeks

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/us-aviation-authorities-say-boeing-737-max-still-airworthy-despite-second-crash

Weeks.  That's cool.  I mean, unless you're supposed to fly on a Max 8 TODAY.  In that case, not so cool.

Boeing has handled this poorly.

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20 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Yep.  

I still think Boeing flunked PR 101 with this incident coming only months after a similar one with a new plane.  If another one falls from the sky, all chit is going to hit the fan.  And if it occurs in the States,  the chit is going to hit one of those Big Ass industrial like fans you see at shops or gyms.  

If kind of reminds my of the Ford Explorer defects in the late 90's/ Early Y2K time frame where the tires were found to be an issue, but Ford nor Firestone would take any responsibility.    Ford ended up taking more of a black eye because one of their better selling vehicles at the time went to zero production at the end of the day and Ford had to play catch up on the small to medium SUV development as that was the period when it started to ramp up in the auto world and Ford nearly went bankrupt.  

Here,  Boeing is kind of making it appear it's more on the airline level vs something possibly  wrong with their plane.  Wise move would be to have them all grounded for a short period of time and have them inspected and if overrides  have to be installed, then do it along with the requisite  training and all that.  If another crash occurs, it's not going  to be pretty for the company and the stock will really be a bargain  and Airbus will be waiting to scoop up the canceled orders.  

 

Yup.  It may well be something training/airline level. We don't know enough yet.  But PR 101 is to get ahead of the issue and be proactive.  At this point, the perception is that there's something wrong with the plane.  The damage to Boeing is already done. Get in front of it and make it clear that you're taking it seriously and if the problem is with the plane, it will be fixed before more passengers die.

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1 minute ago, lemonlime said:

Yup.  It may well be something training/airline level. We don't know enough yet.  But PR 101 is to get ahead of the issue and be proactive.  At this point, the perception is that there's something wrong with the plane.  The damage to Boeing is already done. Get in front of it and make it clear that you're taking it seriously and if the problem is with the plane, it will be fixed before more passengers die.

This.  Maybe it's a simple flaw that can be fixed with simple pilot training and/or a software or other tweak.  The point is....those things should have been done after the Lion air crash.  When you see a crash that is subject to repetition in any way.....smart bidness is to go above and beyond to prevent repetition.  Boeing has done incredible damage to their brand.

Shit, my son is an aviation buff, and my wife is traveling right now.   He saw the story on the Ethiopia crash while she was outbound, and texted me immediately -- "If she's booked on a 737 max coming home, change her flight -- that MCAS is dangerous."  Boeing needs to figure out exactly what has happened, be open and transparent about it, and be VERY open about what the fix is.

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Got a Southwest flight coming up Saturday, checked the app and I noticed it was flagged and gave the option to change flights for free if I want. I’d checked and it currently shows it will be a 787-700. So I called and they’re giving people the option for the next few days to change flights, but you could easily change flights and still end up on a 787max, so it’s basically just for PR. I’ve got a feeling by Saturday they’ll have grounded all the 787max planes anyways, sure hope this doesn’t fuck up my spring break plans.

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 I’m hearing the FO on that aircraft had about 200 hours.  200 barely gets you trusted with a very short leash in a Cessna around here.  I know Bernard can make it look easy but at 200 hours there’s not a chance that guy had the slightest fucking clue about the big picture of flying that particular airplane.   He may or may not have been at the controls and it might not have mattered anyway but that’s a good indicator of what kind of airline you’re dealing with. 

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I would love to fly in a 787max...

I flew in a 787-900 on Sunday for 15 f**king hours.......

Edited by gecko

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1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

This.  Maybe it's a simple flaw that can be fixed with simple pilot training and/or a software or other tweak. The point is....those things should have been done after the Lion air crash.  When you see a crash that is subject to repetition in any way.....smart bidness is to go above and beyond to prevent repetition.  Boeing has done incredible damage to their brand.

....Boeing needs to figure out exactly what has happened, be open and transparent about it, and be VERY open about what the fix is.

They've already done exactly what you're asking for.  The identified the flaw in detail, they communicated that to the airlines along with the procedure that would have prevented the Lion Air crash, which as DaysOff posted earlier has been in place for 50 years.  They started tweaking the airplanes right after the Lion Air crash so the auto-trim would be more apparent to the pilots.  That procedure was reiterated to the pilots as a reminder of the simple 2-step process and the 2 switches to be turned off if the airplane is opposing your pitch inputs.  If the flying public thinks this is being too secretive it's because they haven't looked for the information.  Maybe from a PR standpoint it hasn't been visible enough but everything you're asking for has already been done and more changes are coming in the weeks ahead.

 

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^ Do you think the onus is more on the pilots or on the airlines re: training and communicating the changes/updates?

Or is it on Boeing for trying to implement a change that ultimately wouldn't be successfully communicated downstream? Boeing > Airlines > Pilots

Edited by retread

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^^^The onus?!  It was probably on the seat, puckered.

 

Is a 737-900 close enough?

https://www.click2houston.com/news/-people-were-freaking-out-passengers-forced-to-jump-from-united-plane-after-engine-fire

 

tl;dr:  Pilot forced Weiner to evacuate

 

'People were freaking out': Passengers forced to jump from United plane after engine fire

HOUSTON - Passengers on a United Airlines flight from Newark to Houston lived through some scary moments after they saw flames shooting from one of the engines.

According to authorities, the incident happened around 10:20 p.m. just as the 3.5-hour flight was coming to an end and the plane began its descent into George Bush Intercontinental Airport.

The Boeing 737-900 was traveling from Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey, according to the Associated Press.

Philip Morrow, one of the people on the flight said about two minutes before landing, said he looked out his window and saw enormous flames coming from the back of the left wing engine.

Morrow said the plane landed without incident and people were evacuated from the aircraft, but despite the chaos, he never really felt as if he was in danger.

"(There were) just enourmous flames coming from the back of the left wing engine," Morrow said. "The weirdest thing for me was how peaceful I felt with it. I don't know why, I just wasn't that scared when I saw it because, I guess, I trusted that the flight crew would have let us know that there was anything to worry about. So I plan to fly again."

However, not all passengers were able to keep their cool.

Chris Morrison said people were desperate to find out what was going on.

“People were starting to panic and everyone kept hitting the flight attendant call button, I guess to try to figure out what was going on,” Morrison said. “They made an announcement to stop doing that unless it was a medical emergency, but it was such a bad vibration and the optics of flashes coming from the engine that people were freaking out, so they kept doing it.”

Morrison said it might take some time for him to get over the incident.

"I do not like flying. There was a very crazy distinct vibration, the whole plane. I saw a flash of light outside the window. I just kept saying in my head, 'Please get this plane on the ground safely.' I don't know if I am going to sleep for a couple of days after that. It was quite an experience."

Passengers said they were evacuated onto the tarmac without their luggage and were taken by bus to the United Club where they were given more information.

There was a sense of panic," said Leonard Weiner. "The pilot said evacuate. I was hearing some sounds (that are) not what I usually hear when I fly. We had to evacuate. We had to leave without our luggage and we had to go down the chute and we had to do it as fast as we could."

There were no reports of injuries, and an investigation into the incident is underway.

The 737 plane is different from the 737 MAX planes, which was involved in the recent Ethiopian Air crash.

United Airlines released a statement regarding the incident:

United flight 1168 from Newark, New Jersey to Houston experienced an issue with one of the engines shortly before landing. After landing safely, customers were evacuated from the aircraft and were bussed to the terminal. Local authorities responded immediately and our maintenance team is currently inspecting the aircraft. 

Edited by clapclapclap

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3 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

If the flying public thinks this is being too secretive it's because they haven't looked for the information.  Maybe from a PR standpoint it hasn't been visible enough but everything you're asking for has already been done and more changes are coming in the weeks ahead.

That is my point, and there's no "maybe" about it.  Boeing had a flying public that had their ears up because of a scary "plane flew itself into the ocean" crash.  With that question hanging out there in the PUBLIC'S mind, Boeing should have answered that question in public -- that is, via direct, simple communication and PR, not what most folks will see as mumbo-jumbo directives etc.  This may not be a flight safety failure for Boeing....but it's definitely a PR failure for them.

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2 minutes ago, tucker said:

How low does Boeing stock go before we buy?

I've been looking at some of the calls, but they seem to be priced for a bounce.

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  Brisket, my point is that I’m pretty sure those statements you’re looking for werepublicly made. I don’t have time to go looking for them right now but I’m pretty certain Boeing and every airline that flies a Max has made a statement about what’s being done on their end. Now whether the media picked up on those statements and broadcast them to the world is another matter. 

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6 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

  Brisket, my point is that I’m pretty sure those statements you’re looking for werepublicly made. I don’t have time to go looking for them right now but I’m pretty certain Boeing and every airline that flies a Max has made a statement about what’s being done on their end. Now whether the media picked up on those statements and broadcast them to the world is another matter. 

The whole point of a PR effort is to make SURE those statements get broadcast.  Book an appearance by your CEO on CNN, stuff like that.  PR is an effort.  You don't just say something and hope someone covers it.

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4 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

I don't think you quite understand what's happening here, bro. brisketexan has a fucking high horse he's on, and no amount of facts to counter his ride are going to stop him. The fucking CEO of Boeing should have gone onto the major news and business outlets after the Lion Air crash and wailed about on camera, gnashing teeth, begging for forgiveness, and earnestly pleading with everyone to understand that this was a procedural error, dammit! Now, they've really blown it. Had the CEO done that, no one would give a shit that this new crash was the same exact issue. The magical power of PR and mea culpas from evil yet contrite capitalists is what saves these moments, not new training and software fixes. Just ask the lawyer.

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I can't watch the video at work.  But going on the headline, "Boeing CEO: The 737MAX is a Safe Plane" is the wrong PR message.  The message should be we are getting to the bottom of what caused the two crashes, and if it is something that can be fixed by Boeing, we will fix it ASAP.   Of course the Boeing CEO thinks Boeing planes are safe.  That's not the message that needs to be imparted to the travelling public, the airlines purchasing the planes that may now need to ground these multimillion dollar aircraft, and shareholders.

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2 hours ago, longhorndude said:

Got a Southwest flight coming up Saturday, checked the app and I noticed it was flagged and gave the option to change flights for free if I want. I’d checked and it currently shows it will be a 787-700. So I called and they’re giving people the option for the next few days to change flights, but you could easily change flights and still end up on a 787max, so it’s basically just for PR. I’ve got a feeling by Saturday they’ll have grounded all the 787max planes anyways, sure hope this doesn’t fuck up my spring break plans.

checked my friday flight to see what type of plane we were on-  airbus.  lose lose.

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2 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

checked my friday flight to see what type of plane we were on-  airbus.  lose lose.

I'm on a 737-MAX 9 tomorrow. My wife has now entered the predictable state of panic with the other adult female who will be traveling with us. Any turbulence and they're going to shit themselves over it.

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You need to get your “affairs” in order and tell them you expect a threesome if the plane starts going down. You won’t have enough time to debate it later

Edited by SquishMitten

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It seems as though the media is putting the pressure on the FAA for grounding all Max planes domestically.

 

My NYT app has been dinging my watch all day.

 

First the Chinese yesterday

Then the aussies.

Then the brits.

Everyone but the 'mericans

Why U no grounded FAA?

 

If all of them aren't grounded within the next 2 hours I'll be surprised.

 

So pilots, is this a witch hunt or legit?

 

 

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Well China has obvious incentive to make Boeing look bad (I don’t know how much the other countries do). And we have incentive to keep from damaging them any more than necessary. Wouldn’t be surprised if the FAA doesn’t ground them today

Edited by SquishMitten

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specially since Congress is publicly pleading with them.

FAA drew a line in the sand, though.

Would love to know if orders came from the WH.

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SW paid for the direct readout of the AoA on the PFD, so they could quickly see if one is going haywire and act accordingly. The MCAS feature that is a key suspect, was added for regulatory requirements as the engines are higher up/farther forward, and could lead to a strong pitch up under max thrust and thus a stall...but I’m not sure having all that rely on one instrument was such a good idea and makes me wonder why the MAX doesn’t have three AoA vanes to ensure consensus before automatically trimming down rapidly (dev cost obviously).

Really curious about the CVR recordings here but I wouldn’t worry about flying one on SW

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2 hours ago, Your Mom said:

 

 

... except when it inexplicably crashes killing all on board.

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1 hour ago, Homercles said:

SW paid for the direct readout of the AoA on the PFD, so they could quickly see if one is going haywire and act accordingly. The MCAS feature that is a key suspect, was added for regulatory requirements as the engines are higher up/farther forward, and could lead to a strong pitch up under max thrust and thus a stall...but I’m not sure having all that rely on one instrument was such a good idea and makes me wonder why the MAX doesn’t have three AoA vanes to ensure consensus before automatically trimming down rapidly (dev cost obviously).

Really curious about the CVR recordings here but I wouldn’t worry about flying one on SW

I wouldn’t worry about flying any of them on a domestic carrier. 

 

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Pretty sure we're suppose to worry about flying them because the Boeing PR department sucks

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^   The fifth complaint from the captain who called into question the 737 Max 8's flight manual ended: "The fact that this airplane requires such jury-rigging to fly is a red flag. Now we know the systems employed are error-prone — even if the pilots aren't sure what those systems are, what redundancies are in place and failure modes. I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?"

The Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) was included on the Max 8 model aircraft as a safety mechanism that would automatically correct a plane entering a stall pattern. If the plane loses lift under its wings during takeoff and the nose begins to point far upward, the system kicks in and automatically pushes the nose of the plane down.

After the Lion Air crash, the FAA issued an airworthiness directive that said: "This condition, if not addressed, could cause the flight crew to have difficulty controlling the airplane, and lead to excessive nose-down attitude, significant altitude loss, and possible impact with terrain."

moar vvvvv

Quote

Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots complained to feds for months about suspected safety flaw
Written by
Cary Aspinwall   Ariana Giorgi  Dom DiFurio


Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.

The News found at least five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions.

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports for an October plane crash in Indonesia that killed 189. 

The disclosures found by The News reference problems during flights of Boeing 737 Max 8s with an autopilot system during takeoff and nose-down situations while trying to gain altitude. While records show these flights occurred during October and November, information regarding which airlines the pilots were flying for at the time is redacted from the database.

Records show a captain who flies the Max 8 complained in November that it was "unconscionable" that the company and federal authorities allowed pilots to fly the planes without adequate training or fully disclosing information about how its systems were different from other planes.

The captain's complaint was logged after the FAA released an emergency airworthiness directive about the Boeing 737 Max 8 in response to the crash of Lion Air Flight 610 in Indonesia.

An FAA spokesman said the reports found by The News were filed directly to NASA, which serves as a neutral third party for reporting purposes.

 

Edited by retread

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If you ever want to cure yourself of flying again, watch those Air Crash Investigation shows.  Shit is nightmare fuel when you realize a bunch of these crashes come down to morons in the cockpit, morons working on the planes, or arcane designs in shit like the autopilot.

Like when some Russians flying an Airbus decided to let the pilot's kids sit at the controls while the autopilot was on.  Kid pushes the yoke and turns the autopilot off.  Well, sort of.  It turned off the autopilot control of the ailerons.  It just didn't turn off autopilot control of anything else.  Pilot and his co-pilot freak the fuck out and manage to stall/corkscrew the damn plane and 75 people into a hillside.  Turns out the plane actually has an indicator that lets you know that the full autopilot isn't running, but the Russians were used to audio cues and not visual ones.  Derp.

 

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