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Angels Tyler Skaggs has died

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On 9/6/2019 at 11:14 PM, Helobious said:

I wonder how much all of this coddling and guilt-absolution actually helps addicts. I don’t know that the idea that they are just powerless and not responsible for their choices is all that productive.

it's the opposite.  over the past 30 years we've seen the unproductiveness that results from NOT realizing addicts are powerless over their choices.  once we accept that and realize as a society we have an obligation to help them we can move forward in healing.  btw herein lies the solution for preventing mass homelessness. 

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30 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

it's the opposite.  over the past 30 years we've seen the unproductiveness that results from NOT realizing addicts are powerless over their choices.  once we accept that and realize as a society we have an obligation to help them we can move forward in healing.  btw herein lies the solution for preventing mass homelessness. 

Yes.  What he posted is not what 12 steps teaches.  It teaches that you have lost the power of choice over taking the drug of choice.  It doesn't teach that you have lost the power of choice entirely or absolve in any way the malfeasances the addict has committed.  Addicts still have the choice to seek and accept help and no addiction science or remedy absolves them of that.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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I know it’s out of the scope of the thread now, but it seems that addictions & overdose deaths continue to climb year after year. So I don’t know that whatever 12 steps or what any other addiction help movement teaches is working. 

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12 minutes ago, Helobious said:

I know it’s out of the scope of the thread now, but it seems that addictions & overdose deaths continue to climb year after year. So I don’t know that whatever 12 steps or what any other addiction help movement teaches is working. 

If people don't seek help, they don't receive it, 12 steps or otherwise.  That is the fundamental problem.

The secondary problem is that recovery from substance abuse, whether it requires only detox, or a more comprehensive psychological program, is a) voluntary and b) requires some physically and psychologically uncomfortable work.

You don't just prescribe a 12 step program and expect someone to get well like its penicillin or something.  Like most mental health conditions, part of the illness is resistance to treatment.

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6 hours ago, 1leggedduck said:

Benzos are what I had to deal with. Not me, but my wife. The funny thing is, that at first, they really helped her. Problem is they were her monster, and by the time she realized it, she was physically addicted. Once that happens, the doctors want nothing else to do with you. They prescribed it but they don't help when you can't stop taking it.  It took three attempts, each terrible, for her to finally get clear of them. There really isn't help. The "make the call" bullshit you see on TV commercials is just a grab for the 30 days most insurance will cover for a "program." Worthless, and unavailable to the uninsured. The community based places want you to go in-patient, but have no room for months. They also expect complete buy in to their 12 step thing, which is great for many people, but not everyone. All I'm saying is until you see how it slowly stops becoming a choice and instead becomes something the person has to do just to avoid the agony of with drawl, you really shouldn't preach. It is very humbling to see a strong person go through the process. I'm sorry for anyone who is in any stage of it. 

very well said, especially the part about the lack of real help being available. so many people have to suffer through this garbage with little to no help, and the majority of folks have no idea what that is like or just how easily it could happen to them.  

Edited by Goo Punch

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11 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Benzos are really effective for anxiety, because they put you in a mild stupor immediately.  But that's the problem with them.  I say treat them with the same caution as opiates.

Most rehabs rely on 12-step because, empirically, it works.  If it is just a "physical addiction," supervised detox should work.  If it doesn't work, then you're getting into 12 step territory.  There's no way to tell except by detoxing.

Physical withdrawal from most addictive substances (interestingly, except cocaine, generally) is no joke and is a significant barrier to sobriety for people.  But, it also pales in comparison to the psychological hell that is the other aspects of addiction.

Benzodiazepines do not treat the underlying cause of anxiety, they just mask the physical manifestations of it. This is why therapy is the long term solution for anxiety. But we live in a culture where pills are the quick fix and while many patients allegedly "cry for help," the overwhelming majority are not willing to put in the work to manage their anxiety in a safe and healthy manner. It's "Doctor, I can't wait for therapy to work otherwise I'll go crazy." And then many medical providers cave and prescribe controlled substances. Then those same patients turn around and blame the doctor for their ills.

Your statement about cocaine withdrawal is blatantly false as I have treated hundreds of patients that experience the stimulant-induced mood disorder colloquially called "cocaine crash" where patients can be depressed to the level of being suicidal after using cocaine because of the significant level of depletion of dopamine caused by cocaine use. Cocaine withdrawal is not lethal like alcohol or benzodiazepines, but your exclusion of cocaine having physical symptoms as part of its withdrawal syndrome is incorrect.

A layman's site for reference on cocaine withdrawal: https://americanaddictioncenters.org/cocaine-treatment/withdrawal

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On 8/31/2019 at 10:28 AM, Pato del Muerto said:

It should have stayed as what it was originally, for severe post surgical/major trauma pain and end of life pain management. 

Big pharma ain't gonna make quarterly numbers that way though.

Fucking opioids are the worst.

 

Edited by oSuJeff97

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20 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

Benzodiazepines do not treat the underlying cause of anxiety, they just mask the physical manifestations of it. This is why therapy is the long term solution for anxiety. But we live in a culture where pills are the quick fix and while many patients allegedly "cry for help," the overwhelming majority are not willing to put in the work to manage their anxiety in a safe and healthy manner. It's "Doctor, I can't wait for therapy to work otherwise I'll go crazy." And then many medical providers cave and prescribe controlled substances. Then those same patients turn around and blame the doctor for their ills.

This is what I tell people who ask me about anxiety. When I left rehab (I mean literally the next day) I got on a plane and went to a two-week, in-patient, intensive course at a place in New England called the Option Institute, and that, combined with weekly therapy since 2009 is responsible for 100% of the progress I've made with my anxiety, progress that has been frankly remarkable.

I was hospitalized three times in the summer of 2009 for massive panic attacks (feels like you're dying/having a heart attack) before being admitted to rehab, and upon leaving rehab anxiety was my no.1 issue (getting off that high level of benzos had long lasting side effects- i wasn't myself for a full year- but my anxiety in particular was off the charts). A pill would make it go away for the time being, but it wasn't until I put in a ton of effort and work (some of which was incredibly challenging) that I was able to actually reduce how much of an impact anxiety had on my life overall.

Today my anxiety is nowhere near the issue that it was in the past. Now rage is my big issue (shocker, I know). I still may need to take a pill in a certain situation (yep, i've been back on benzos for quite awhile now- sucks that it's still my best option), but I no longer live a life where a crippling anxiety attack may strike at any moment, and that has nothing to do with any rx meds that I take, and everything to do with work I've put in through therapy. 

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21 hours ago, UDontKnow said:

Benzodiazepines do not treat the underlying cause of anxiety, they just mask the physical manifestations of it. This is why therapy is the long term solution for anxiety. But we live in a culture where pills are the quick fix and while many patients allegedly "cry for help," the overwhelming majority are not willing to put in the work to manage their anxiety in a safe and healthy manner. It's "Doctor, I can't wait for therapy to work otherwise I'll go crazy." And then many medical providers cave and prescribe controlled substances. Then those same patients turn around and blame the doctor for their ills.

Your statement about cocaine withdrawal is blatantly false as I have treated hundreds of patients that experience the stimulant-induced mood disorder colloquially called "cocaine crash" where patients can be depressed to the level of being suicidal after using cocaine because of the significant level of depletion of dopamine caused by cocaine use. Cocaine withdrawal is not lethal like alcohol or benzodiazepines, but your exclusion of cocaine having physical symptoms as part of its withdrawal syndrome is incorrect.

A layman's site for reference on cocaine withdrawal: https://americanaddictioncenters.org/cocaine-treatment/withdrawal

I didn't say it because I have said it dozens of times here and at TOS, but the real solution to anxiety is cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT, but don't google it).

The "generally" in regard to cocaine withdrawal was sort of a caveat in recognition that that question is not without controversy.  Some might call what you describe a post-acute-withdrawal syndrome, which other substances also have to a greater or lesser degree.  And I would submit that it isn't the lethality of withdrawal that characterizes it as such, it is the short-term physical symptoms such as tremors, seizures, cramps, excessive shitting and puking, hypertension, etc. 

Edited by TwiceHorn

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20 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

This is what I tell people who ask me about anxiety. When I left rehab (I mean literally the next day) I got on a plane and went to a two-week, in-patient, intensive course at a place in New England called the Option Institute, and that, combined with weekly therapy since 2009 is responsible for 100% of the progress I've made with my anxiety, progress that has been frankly remarkable.

I was hospitalized three times in the summer of 2009 for massive panic attacks (feels like you're dying/having a heart attack) before being admitted to rehab, and upon leaving rehab anxiety was my no.1 issue (getting off that high level of benzos had long lasting side effects- i wasn't myself for a full year- but my anxiety in particular was off the charts). A pill would make it go away for the time being, but it wasn't until I put in a ton of effort and work (some of which was incredibly challenging) that I was able to actually reduce how much of an impact anxiety had on my life overall.

Today my anxiety is nowhere near the issue that it was in the past. Now rage is my big issue (shocker, I know). I still may need to take a pill in a certain situation (yep, i've been back on benzos for quite awhile now- sucks that it's still my best option), but I no longer live a life where a crippling anxiety attack may strike at any moment, and that has nothing to do with any rx meds that I take, and everything to do with work I've put in through therapy. 

What did you find incredibly challenging?  Provocation of anxiety while trying to process it in the clinical setting?

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9 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Is Purdue considered big phama?  Or were they when they started selling oxycontin?

No not really.  Yes they made a shitpile of money, but they weren't big in pharmaceutical development.  Most of the opiate offenders are not big pharma, although several of them, former "generics," such as Janssen, have been acquired by big pharma.

I think a distinction needs to be drawn between big pharma that submits more than one New Drug Application to the FDA a year and those that make a lot of money by some underhanded practice, like Purdue, Mylan, etc.  They both employ underhanded practices, but the former does actually offer a societal benefit.

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57 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

What did you find incredibly challenging?  Provocation of anxiety while trying to process it in the clinical setting?

The most challenging part for me was actually practicing the techniques and strategies I'd been learning when I was having real time anxiety all on my own. Secluding myself or staying locked in my house or trying to run from my anxiety wasn't working. I had to learn to sit with it, to accept that it was there and that running from it wasn't going to change anything. I'm working on my mental strength and inner strength in the interim with the therapy, but when the anxiety comes, it's up to me to do the hard work, to sit with it, to do my breathing exercises, to talk with myself, drink water, do the things that calm me down, see if i can read a book or take a walk, whatever i can to try and take control of the situation. Don't run for the pill right away; make it more of a last option. And man, as anyone who's ever experienced anxiety, I mean real anxiety, can tell you how hard it is to make that choice over and over and over until things change for the better.

Thats maybe a simple recap of it all- there were certainly many other things I was also doing to help myself, but as far as the toughest part goes- yeah, deciding to actually experience your anxiety and see it through over and over and over- wow; i'm honestly really proud of myself just sitting here and thinking about it. It was extremely difficult, but man do I feel great remembering how bad things used to be and knowing where i'm at now. 

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2 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

This is what I tell people who ask me about anxiety. When I left rehab (I mean literally the next day) I got on a plane and went to a two-week, in-patient, intensive course at a place in New England called the Option Institute, and that, combined with weekly therapy since 2009 is responsible for 100% of the progress I've made with my anxiety, progress that has been frankly remarkable.

I was hospitalized three times in the summer of 2009 for massive panic attacks (feels like you're dying/having a heart attack) before being admitted to rehab, and upon leaving rehab anxiety was my no.1 issue (getting off that high level of benzos had long lasting side effects- i wasn't myself for a full year- but my anxiety in particular was off the charts). A pill would make it go away for the time being, but it wasn't until I put in a ton of effort and work (some of which was incredibly challenging) that I was able to actually reduce how much of an impact anxiety had on my life overall.

Today my anxiety is nowhere near the issue that it was in the past. Now rage is my big issue (shocker, I know). I still may need to take a pill in a certain situation (yep, i've been back on benzos for quite awhile now- sucks that it's still my best option), but I no longer live a life where a crippling anxiety attack may strike at any moment, and that has nothing to do with any rx meds that I take, and everything to do with work I've put in through therapy. 

Good on you for taking control and responsibility for your mental health. I do hope that you'll eventually reach a point where you don't need benzodiazepines - even on as needed basis. There are clinical indications for utilizing benzodiazepines - alcohol detoxification and catatonia (an ideal scenario is on a short-term basis). But many people aren't aware that they are nasty medications that have been associated with development of dementia (Sources: https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.libproxy.unm.edu/pubmed/26016483; https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.libproxy.unm.edu/pubmed/25691075) and a terrible withdrawal syndrome even if the patient does not experience "typical addiction." But that is not surprising when you realize that the way benzodiazepines work. Loosely speaking, it works on the brain like alcohol in a pill. 

Edited by UDontKnow

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48 minutes ago, UDontKnow said:

Good on you for taking control and responsibility for your mental health. I do hope that you'll eventually reach a point where you don't need benzodiazepines - even on as needed basis. There are clinical indications for utilizing benzodiazepines - alcohol detoxification and catatonia (an ideal scenario is on a short-term basis). But many people aren't aware that they are nasty medications that have been associated with development of dementia (Sources: https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.libproxy.unm.edu/pubmed/26016483; https://www-ncbi-nlm-nih-gov.libproxy.unm.edu/pubmed/25691075) and a terrible withdrawal syndrome even if the patient does not experience "typical addiction." But that is not surprising when you realize that the way benzodiazepines work. Loosely speaking, it works on the brain like alcohol in a pill. 

i've been through some crazy shit in my life, but the worst thing i've ever been through is benzo withdrawal. i've never suffered like that for that long. i couldn't eat, i couldn't sleep, and i was so sensitive to light and sound that i had to leave my apartment to be taken care of by my mom at her house while we waited to get me in somewhere. i was just locked in her bedroom for 20 hours a day with no lights and only the sound of the fan. I would get up to dry heave every now and then, but other than that i just laid in the bed, in pain and out of my mind, having tremors all day and night, save the 2x/day i was still taking the pills, during which time i'd have a little window where i could turn on the tv (on mute) and watch for a couple of hours. this was summer 2009, and we timed my pills around when the Horns were playing in the CWS so that I could watch. I finally ended up hospitalized right after LSU beat us and was admitted to rehab the next day.

Also, I was quite surprised to find out just how serious benzos are while in rehab. Most everyone else was in there for alcohol/coke/meth/heroin, and i was the only one on benzos. My detox took literally 2-3x longer than anyone else who i knew while i was in there, and during one of our classes about life after rehab the social worker advised that everyone who wasn't in there for benzos was going to have up to 6 months of side effects/cognitive issues, while the benzo people (so, me) would experience this for up to a year- and they were not wrong. it was a very foggy, frustrating year to say the least. my guess is that because benzos aren't really street drugs like so many opioids and narcotics have become that most people don't realize just how dangerous and addictive they really are. 

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11 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

lol Peterson is such a fucking idiot

your opinion on him has nothing to do with anything in this thread. 

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Kay has sought treatment for substance abuse twice this year, according to his mother and his wife, Camela. While recovering in the hospital from an overdose on April 22, Kay received a text from Skaggs seeking drugs, they said. Sandy was visiting her son in the hospital at the time, alongside his wife and Tim Mead, the former Angels vice president of communications and Kay's supervisor. Sandy told Outside the Lines she saw the texts and told Mead that the team needed to get Skaggs "off his back."

Mead, who left the Angels in June to become president of the Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown, New York, told Outside the Lines no one mentioned Skaggs' name in that conversation or that Skaggs was an opioid user at any other time.

Edited by clapclapclap
Kinda weird that he married his mom

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On Saturday, the family's attorney, Rusty Hardin, said, "The Skaggs family continues to mourn the loss of a beloved son, brother, husband and son-in-law. They greatly appreciate the work that law enforcement is doing, and they are patiently awaiting the results of the investigation."

 

Thought this was interesting..

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