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Defund the Police


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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

So you're going to have a "Defund The Police" sign in your yard in 2026?

No because it’s a dumb slogan. “Oh we just mean divert dollars to other areas” ok then come up with a slogan that points it out  

I see the cops as a necessary evil. When I was 17 a (black) cop in Downey Ca. pulled his gun on me and another kid I barely knew. Cop and his partner thought it was hilarious. The kid I was with was a 6’4” Mexican friend of my cousins and a lunatic. I thought I was about to die. There are a lot of centrists who believe the police need to be reined in. Defund the police isn’t going to win them over to your cause. 

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8 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

What if whites actually listened to black activists and supported them immediately instead of being dragged into the future kicking, screaming, and scolding?

Black activists tell the truth 100% of the time? Amazing!  The universal availability of cell phone videos is a great thing imo. I really wish the Michael Brown shooting had been on video. We might be well down the road from where we are. If you want to truly build a coalition, know your audience and tailor your message to them. 
 

 

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Just now, Sawbonz said:

What do you think the average centrist thinks it means?

Since the average centrist is an idiot, I think they think it means "Remove all police everywhere in every capacity."

I don't think the average centrist is the axis around which every world turns, so I don't know why that matters to me.

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Just now, bad_teammate said:

Since the average centrist is an idiot, I think they think it means "Remove all police everywhere in every capacity."

I don't think the average centrist is the axis around which every world turns, so I don't know why that matters to me.

Do you want to convince a majority of people to agree with your policy on policing?

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6 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

What do you mean when you say “listen to and support immediately?”

"Listen to" should be pretty obvious. You read what they write and seek out their thoughts to hear. Do you do that?

"Support" should also be obvious and can range from being a 100%, full-on repeating-the-slogan ally or "I disagree with the slogan but I keep that to myself and defend against dishonest attacks while promoting the underlying message about police brutality". Do you do that?

5 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Do you want to convince a majority of people to agree with your policy on policing?

Sure. I also want to know what that policy is and make sure it is right.

Just now, Degenerate Gardner said:

Yes but the degree is ambiguous and thus "Defund the pokice" is poorly suited for sloganeering. The ambiguity both hampers your own message's effectiveness and makes the slogan ripe for fear mongering by the opposition.  Es no bueno.

I'm not concerned about the opposition. They will lie about everything. I am more worried about my supposed allies who will accept the opposition's framing and attack poor and disadvantaged populations using the weapons handed to them by racists and fascists.

Also, I can recognize that "Defund the Police" wasn't invented by politicians for political purposes. It was/is a slogan used by street activists to be heard. If politicians and centrists are worried about politically correct slogans, then they should do the work and create those.

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4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

"Listen to" should be pretty obvious. You read what they write and seek out their thoughts to hear. Do you do that?

"Support" should also be obvious and can range from being a 100%, full-on repeating-the-slogan ally or "I disagree with the slogan but I keep that to myself and defend against dishonest attacks while promoting the underlying message about police brutality". Do you do that?

Sure. I also want to know what that policy is and make sure it is right.

I'm not concerned about the opposition. They will lie about everything. I am more worried about my supposed allies who will accept the opposition's framing and attack poor and disadvantaged populations using the weapons handed to them by racists and fascists.

Also, I can recognize that "Defund the Police" wasn't invented by politicians for political purposes. It was/is a slogan used by street activists to be heard. If politicians and centrists are worried about politically correct slogans, then they should do the work and create those.

Fuck Yes GIF by memecandy
 

Fucking A.

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4 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Do you do that

Do I? Yes. I’m not your target audience though. You might be surprised that many black activists (just like many activists of every color and over any issue you can name) are opportunistic, and these opportunists poison the well for people not already bought in. Like I said, know your audience and target your message appropriately. Or not. I don’t think you care about building a consensus on this issue or any other. Nothing I have ever read from you suggests you do. 

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11 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

disagree with the slogan but I keep that to myself and defend against dishonest attacks while promoting the underlying message about police brutality".

Or it can be pointing out it is a stupid slogan and is hurting your cause so maybe change it instead of being part of the echo chamber saying how great it is

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1 minute ago, Sawbonz said:

You might be surprised that many black activists (just like many activists of every color and over any issue you can name) are opportunistic, and these opportunists poison the well for people not already bought in.

Why would this surprise me? Seems like you've got some hostility going.

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2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Or it can be pointing out it is a stupid slogan and is hurting your cause so maybe change it instead of being part of the echo chamber saying how great it is

Do you have evidence that it's hurting their cause or are you just part of an echo chamber saying it is?

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Do you have evidence that it's hurting their cause or are you just part of an echo chamber saying it is?

I mean Biden beat Trump by 8M votes and yet republicans gained seats in the house and possibly blew a chance at gaining the senate. Things like “defund the police” probably had nothing to do with that

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Just now, Sawbonz said:

I mean Biden beat Trump by 8M votes and yet republicans gained seats in the house and possibly blew a chance at gaining the senate. Things like “defund the police” probably had nothing to do with that

So no evidence, just supposition that backed the position you had going in. Beautiful.

How many downballot candidates who lost ran on "Defund the Police"?

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Just now, bad_teammate said:

So no evidence, just supposition that backed the position you had going in. Beautiful.

How many downballot candidates who lost ran on "Defund the Police"?

How many were painted with that brush? You aren’t going to convince the right. You can pull enough from the middle to win. Divisive slogans don’t help you do that

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1 hour ago, wildcat09 said:

Y'all remember that time some black people said the words "black lives matter" and a bunch of centrists suddenly woke up and supported them?

BLM is a great slogan IMO. its easy to understand and rationalise with. The counterpoint is "all lives matter" which is easy to laugh at and counter. 

Defund the Police allows for those we want challenged to have an easy out. "they want no more cops!" and they will say that, believe it, and move on. you have not challenged them in the slightest. they will continue to have their heads in the sand while you will continue chanting defund the police to your internet friends. (not you specifically wildcat)

the goal is persuasion and moving the needle. the goal is not outrage. especially in modern times where we are simply exchanging outrages online. it offers nothing. 

we will get there. you homies be good now and have a good fucking day. my no nuke friday is glorious so far. 

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If I want to improve education I don't say "Defund the Schools".

If I want to improve the police force I'm going to have to put more money into training and more money into investigating shitty police officers and more money into training.

 

Edited by tantric superman
and more money for editing training manuals so they aren't repetitive....ng
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21 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I don't know, how many? Aren't you the one arguing that it hurt Democrats down-ballot?

2014 Sawbonz vs 2020 Sawbonz

 

Enough to lose ground in the house and not gain the senate IMO. Obviously I don’t think it’s just that one thing, but if you’re looking for exit poll data saying it affected voters’ choices I don’t have that 
 

Sorry sawbonz 2014 didn’t vote. Sawbonz 2008 was Obama though so...

good luck with your defund the police slogan 

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20 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

If I want to improve education I don't say "Defund the Schools".

If I want to improve the police force I'm going to have to put more money into training and more money into investigating shitty police officers and more money into training.

 

So your argument isn’t actually about the slogan.

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11 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Enough to lose ground in the house and not gain the senate IMO. Obviously I don’t think it’s just that one thing, but if you’re looking for exit poll data saying it affected voters’ choices I don’t have that 
 

Sorry sawbonz 2014 didn’t vote. Sawbonz 2008 was Obama though so...

good luck with your defund the police slogan 

Dems also won Georgia and now have runoffs for the Georgia senate seats so...

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The slogan is dumb because people generally like cops, they think it’s unfair to good cops, and they want a safe community.

The problem is, most people know a cop they like. Or at least, they think they know a cop they like. They see them casually at church or possibly a friend or family member. The truth is, as much as they like Brad the cop, they have no idea how Brad conducts himself while on the job.

It’s a dumb slogan and a major reason for down ballot losses.

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The Democratic Party leadership sucks is what this debate boils down to.  They couldn’t overcome a grassroots activist message or develop it into a better message on their own.  Instead, they distance themselves from the problem and let the right wing media dictate their approach to this issue.  

THEN they blamed the uppity progressives when things went a little south for them electorally.  No self reflection or accountability on their part. They just played into to the framing by Fox News like shitcunts.

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55 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The Democratic Party leadership sucks is what this debate boils down to.  They couldn’t overcome a grassroots activist message or develop it into a better message on their own.  Instead, they distance themselves from the problem and let the right wing media dictate their approach to this issue.  

THEN they blamed the uppity progressives when things went a little south for them electorally.  No self reflection or accountability on their part. They just played into to the framing by Fox News like shitcunts.

 It’s an idea that has been apart of progressive ideology and the academic set for quite sometime. It was seized upon during the protests following the Floyd murder.

The Democratic Party had no opportunity to stop it. Like must dumb slogans, our opponents pounced on it and by that point it was already too late.

Edited by Texaspython
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21 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The Democratic Party leadership sucks is what this debate boils down to.  They couldn’t overcome a grassroots activist message or develop it into a better message on their own.  Instead, they distance themselves from the problem and let the right wing media dictate their approach to this issue.  

THEN they blamed the uppity progressives when things went a little south for them electorally.  No self reflection or accountability on their part. They just played into to the framing by Fox News like shitcunts.

100%

53 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

If the slogan for your cause can, without being altered at all, be used by your opposition to drive undecided people away from it....it just might suck.

Do you have any evidence that "Defund the Police" hurt Democratic candidates in 2020?

Does anyone?

Bueller? Bueller?

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14 minutes ago, Texaspython said:

The Democratic Party had no opportunity to stop it. Like must dumb slogans, our opponents pounced on it and by that point it was already too late.

If the Dems can get kneecapped by one shitty slogan, it’s more a testament to the weakness of the party leadership than it is the slogan. 

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35 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

To the extent you want to ignore the fact that I think it's a terrible slogan, precisely!

Except you aren’t arguing the slogan. You’re arguing about the nature of the reform and that we shouldn’t defund police. So your issue is with the general idea of taking police funding away not the slogan that is used for it.

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29 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

If the Dems can get kneecapped by one shitty slogan, it’s more a testament to the weakness of the party leadership than it is the slogan. 

Kind of an important one. Let’s be clear though, the Democratic never adopted the slogan. Only progressives intent on losing elections.

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5 minutes ago, Texaspython said:

Kind of an important one. Let’s be clear though, the Democratic never adopted the slogan. Only progressives intent on losing elections.

 

5 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Name the progressives who adopted the slogan and lost elections.

Name them.

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1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Zero responses to this from the very concerned centrists. Nothing. Zero. Jack shit.

It's because they fundamentally do not want things to change. They want minor tweaks, woke symbols to feel superior about (while remaining unchallenged/unthreatened), and silence from the oppressed classes.

But they can't acknowledge this, even to themselves.

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18 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Zero responses to this from the very concerned centrists. Nothing. Zero. Jack shit.

It's because they fundamentally do not want things to change. They want minor tweaks, woke symbols to feel superior about (while remaining unchallenged/unthreatened), and silence from the oppressed classes.

But they can't acknowledge this, even to themselves.

Or, maybe, people with sense realize that 80% of the people in the US do NOT examine policy issues in any detail, and instead latch onto high-level concepts.  For example, I would venture that a majority of people have the following three positions:

1 -- we don't want bad cops doing bad things.

2 -- but we do still need cops, because crime still is a thing.

3 -- "defunding the police" sounds like an overreaction to issue 1, which will make hurt everyone with respect to issue 2.

 

Now, we can sit here and argue against those folks till we're blue in the face.  We can explain the actual details and nuances of "defund the police," to put them at ease and realize that while some real-deal and significant changes need to happen, that doesn't mean "we won't have police to stop crime anymore."  It wouldn't matter, because they don't think beyond the simple statements in 1-3, and they never will.

So, KNOWING that the majority of Americans are simple beings who will maintain strong beliefs on items 1 and 2, how can you pitch item 3 in a way that won't make them say "nope, don't want that?"

It's not a fucking hard question.  Being right is nifty.  But convincing the majority to support a path that will lead to the right outcome is how shit gets done.  Messaging matters, it always has, because that's all that most people even process.

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