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A story about a pathetic man's downfall


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40 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

i mean shit, i don't know, probably.  does every fucking guard rail need to be slammed into by an 18-wheeler to make sure it actually works?

I'm glad that we're definitely going to fix all of the already broken guard rails from the last 6 years in short order. Oh, what's that? We're letting the GOP take sledgehammers to any remnants still standing? Ah well, nevertheless.

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2 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

87978-calvinball.jpg

OMG Watterson leaving us breadcrumbs. 12 = Supremes plus Biden’s three handpicked Marxist jurists comprising his futile effort to pack the court.  As Hobbes points out this is still no match for Q. 
 

Patriots! It’s the two minute warning in extra innings of the ultimate game of Donaldball and I wouldn’t want to be a librul when the red light goes off and Flynn blows the whistle and Guantanamo’s penalty box becomes the new home of tens of millions of our enemies. 

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4 hours ago, The Dog said:

Good thread in (mostly) layman's terms:

 

 

Good analysis.  I was a little worried about the jurisdiction and the 11th blew past it in a sentence.  On balance, I think they were right, but it's a sticky issue.

To be super simple, there were two parts of the order affecting the classified documents, the injunction against use by DOJ and the "sorting" of them by the Special Master.   The injunction aspect is clearly appealable, the special master part only to the extent that it is so bound up with the injunction part as to be considered inseparable.  Otherwise, appointment of a special master and the terms of the appointment are not appealable.

Fucking Kise is good.  Head and shoulders above the usual Trump shyster.

2 hours ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

Steve Vladeck is twice, isn't he?

I'd take that as a huge compliment.

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My favorite part about this thread is that TwiceHorn gets all this leeway and respect for telling us all to be patient and the courts will prevail because the justice system works in regards to DJT's many illegals activities. And also randomly shits on the government being liars and corrupted in said court proceedings he's been involved with them and has no faith in them. It's quite fascinating really...

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1 hour ago, Covri said:

My favorite part about this thread is that TwiceHorn gets all this leeway and respect for telling us all to be patient and the courts will prevail because the justice system works in regards to DJT's many illegals activities. And also randomly shits on the government being liars and corrupted in said court proceedings he's been involved with them and has no faith in them. It's quite fascinating really...

It's kinda like what #bothsides sounds like, but with a JD

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7 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well, dumb cunt, I don’t think anything your party is doing to this country should be covered by any laws we have. What’s that?  Oh we do have laws against sedition?  Oh cool. 

Why is it that I never meet morons like this when I am trying to sell something?  Amazing how many people still believe in a lying piece of shit.

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8 hours ago, Covri said:

My favorite part about this thread is that TwiceHorn gets all this leeway and respect for telling us all to be patient and the courts will prevail because the justice system works in regards to DJT's many illegals activities. And also randomly shits on the government being liars and corrupted in said court proceedings he's been involved with them and has no faith in them. It's quite fascinating really...

The courts are not the FBI, or the cops.  At times, they work in tandem to horsefuck people because it's a bit of a double team with the prosecutor and the cops on one side, the defendant on the other and a judge that often doesn't do enough to protect the defendant, even though the rules are set up that way.

I am largely pro-defendant in criminal matters and that connotes a hefty skepticism of the government in such matters.  There are too many examples to be ignored.  And, yes, that colors my thinking on quite a bit of this.  I'm not a burn-it-all-down type.

The FBI tend to be more professional than regular cops, but they're still cops, basically, and are not above cutting corners in their zeal to secure a high-profile conviction.

In this case, because I am anti-defendant/anti-Trump, I want the system to work because I want to prevent an FBI fuckup from letting him skate on something avoidable.

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7 hours ago, Captainant said:

It's kinda like what #bothsides sounds like, but with a JD

Except it doesn't have a damn thing to do with partisan politics.  The US and various state governments are at their most powerful when pitted against a citizen in a criminal prosecution.  It's why we have things like the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments.

Everyone should be at least a little bit skeptical of the government in these criminal matters, even when the defendant is wildly unpopular and pretty obviously guilty.

I don't shift my perspectives on these things just because the defendant is a fuckhole.

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8 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Didn't Cannon go back and change her order?  So shouldn't he go back to the 11th circuit instead?!?

 

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Yes she did. 

 

2 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

And yes they should. Arguably the 11th Circuit’s opinion is moot. 

So then why the fuck is this going to the Supreme Court?  Is this little Donny trying to be special?  

 

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1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

 

 

So then why the fuck is this going to the Supreme Court?  Is this little Donny trying to be special?  

 

Nothing prevents him from filing a motion. It’s up to the court to deny or strike the motion based on lack of jurisdiction/mootness, etc. 

 

will be interesting to see what the DOJ says in response. Would not be surprised for mootness to be one of the arguments. 

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6 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

 

 

So then why the fuck is this going to the Supreme Court?  Is this little Donny trying to be special?  

 

Well, of course it is.  He demanded of his lawyers that they take it to the Supreme Court where he believes he will receive favorable treatment.

The only "relief" he could receive is that the 11th Circuit could be found to be in error regarding the Special Master sorting the classified documents, so DOJ could still use them in investigation, but they would also still be subject to a ruling by the Master and then Cannon.  That's what Vladeck means when he says this is a very limited question on appeal to the Supremes.

As with all court proceedings, we've only seen "one side" of it so far.  The government may raise the mootness issue in its response.

It's not some "automatic" self-executing thing where everyone says "Oh, the trial court changed it's order, it's moot, nevermind."  The key word in DDDDads' post is "arguably."

Edited by TwiceHorn
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23 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

This case is presenting a number of interesting questions about appellate procedure and jurisdiction.

Or is this just Donny doing whatever the fuck he wants because he's always done exactly whatever the fuck he wants. #Calvinball

 

16 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, of course it is.  He demanded of his lawyers that they take it to the Supreme Court where he believes he will receive favorable treatment.

The only "relief" he could receive is that the 11th Circuit could be found to be in error regarding the Special Master sorting the classified documents, so DOJ could still use them in investigation, but they would also still be subject to a ruling by the Master and then Cannon.  That's what Vladeck means when he says this is a very limited question on appeal to the Supremes.

As with all court proceedings, we've only seen "one side" of it so far.  The government may raise the mootness issue in its response.

It's not some "automatic" self-executing thing where everyone says "Oh, the trial court changed it's order, it's moot, nevermind."  The key word in DDDDads' post is "arguably."

Read a summary on this on CNN yesterday. Basically, it said the appeal to the SC wasn't really asking for anything ground-breaking. To that analyst, it looked more like one of Trump's smarter attorneys (probably Kise?) throwing a bone to Trump, who probably screamed to "appeal this to the SC" thinking he'd stacked the court with three attorneys, etc. I'll look for the link. (EDIT: here it is https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/05/politics/trump-supreme-court-mar-a-lago-documents/index.html)

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33 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Didn't Cannon go back and change her order?  So shouldn't he go back to the 11th circuit instead?!?

Yeah, I could have sworn that we were told that her striking the order meant that the 11th's ruling wasn't appealable?

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5 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Yeah, I could have sworn that we were told that her striking the order meant that the 11th's ruling wasn't appealable?

One thing it almost certainly did was create another order that could be appealed by Trump.  Whether the ongoing stay issue is moot or not is a very interesting question, but the answer is not clear.

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23 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

That’s a terrible comparison. As I read him on this thread, Twice is just explaining the process and why courts seem so hesitant to rush to the same conclusions we in the general public do. On balance, that’s a good thing. You don’t want a rash judiciary. 

He’s not running interference for Trump and the ilk the way Bothsides Annie does. And he’s certainly not saying that Democrats do the same shit or that this judge is as good as any other. He’s just explaining that it would be foolhardy to implode our whole  judicial process just because one high-profile defendant is delaying justice. 

This is certainly shining a very bright light on the inner machinations of the US legal system based on who the defendant is. Hell, I would've checked out dozens of pages ago if this wasn't related to this fuckface. But let's not fool ourselves -- DOTARD isn't the only rich prick who is helped daily by the way the US legal system is set up. It doesn't work the same for people without means or other marginalized people.

1fffdf94-b8a4-4cce-bfd2-a4b57676feb5_tex

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, of course it is.  He demanded of his lawyers that they take it to the Supreme Court where he believes he will receive favorable treatment.

The only "relief" he could receive is that the 11th Circuit could be found to be in error regarding the Special Master sorting the classified documents, so DOJ could still use them in investigation, but they would also still be subject to a ruling by the Master and then Cannon.  That's what Vladeck means when he says this is a very limited question on appeal to the Supremes.

As with all court proceedings, we've only seen "one side" of it so far.  The government may raise the mootness issue in its response.

It's not some "automatic" self-executing thing where everyone says "Oh, the trial court changed it's order, it's moot, nevermind."  The key word in DDDDads' post is "arguably."

Wouldn't this also give trump access to the classified documents, assuming he's successful?  Which to be clear, while I have pretty much lost faith in the justice system, think is unlikely, if for no other reason than Thomas gave the DOJ a briefing schedule that didn't suggest any urgency, and if he's lost Thomas . . .

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8 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

Wouldn't this also give trump access to the classified documents, assuming he's successful?  Which to be clear, while I have pretty much lost faith in the justice system, think is unlikely, if for no other reason than Thomas gave the DOJ a briefing schedule that didn't suggest any urgency, and if he's lost Thomas . . .

Not sure.  I guess that would depend on Dearie and then Cannon.  Dearie seems very astute on the classified documents issues.

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I don't follow the details too closely or the long-winded responses in this thread, but I know a couple of things. (1) Courts often move slowly, by design sometimes as part of due process, and shouldn't be viewed as positive or negative just part of the system; (2) Courts will be especially careful in highly publicized cases like this one which can lead to additional time or things non-lawyers view as strange since the details of procedure aren't widely considered common knowledge; and (3) there's been enough fuckery among the federal courts since 2016 that skepticism about the system in this type of case is appropriate.

It's also not unique to politicians or public figures to file frivolous bullshit motions as a delay tactic, corporate parties do it all the time, so that is the least of my criticisms from trump and his gaggle of dumbshit lawyers. The difference is that the corporate guys have better lawyers and their arguments are usually plausible enough to effectively cause delay. Trumps people are morons and their bullshittery is easier to dispose of (although I have also dealt with plenty of dumbshit lawyers filing dumbshit stuff that it sometimes is harder to respond when they make complete nonsense arguments because you have to spend half the brief pointing out clearly how stupid they are in a professional way).

I personally think there are limits that even the hardest trump judge wouldn't go through (Thomas maybe since he's an amoral piece of shit and Alito isn't too far behind) but the majority and maybe even those two will have a threshold of absurdity they won't cross. I think trump and his family are ultimately fucked but it'll get dragged out at least until he's dead and his family will strike some sort of deal. Once he's dead I won't give a shit, he just needs to disappear one way or another. 

Edited by 'stache
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16 minutes ago, The Dog said:

He's a former FISA judge. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Dearie

Yes, it follows.  But because FISA is closed from the public record, pretty much entirely, I was curious about his knowledge of the use of classified materials in open court.  There's a statute the deals with it that Dearie mentioned in passing in regard to counsel for Trump's "need to know." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_Information_Procedures_Act

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8 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I don't follow the details too closely or the long-winded responses in this thread, but I know a couple of things. (1) Courts often move slowly, by design sometimes as part of due process, and shouldn't be viewed as positive or negative just part of the system; (2) Courts will be especially careful in highly publicized cases like this one which can lead to additional time or things non-lawyers view as strange since the details of procedure aren't widely considered common knowledge; and (3) there's been enough fuckery among the federal courts since 2016 that skepticism about the system is appropriate.

It's also not unique to politicians or public figures to file frivolous bullshit motions as a delay tactic, corporate parties do it all the time, so that is the least of my criticisms from trump and his gaggle of dumbshit lawyers. The difference is that the corporate guys have better lawyers and their arguments are usually plausible enough to effectively cause delay. Trumps people are morons and their bullshittery is easier to dispose of (although I have also dealt with plenty of dumbshit lawyers filing dumbshit stuff that it sometimes is harder to respond when they make complete nonsense arguments because you have to spend half the brief pointing out clearly how stupid they are in a professional way).

I personally think there are limits that even the hardest trump judge wouldn't go through (Thomas maybe since he's an amoral piece of shit and Alito isn't too far behind) but the majority and maybe even those two will have a threshold of absurdity they won't cross. I think trump and his family are ultimately fucked but it'll get dragged out at least until he's dead and his family will strike some sort of deal. Once he's dead I won't give a shit, he just needs to disappear one way or another. 

Yeah, as lawdogs we have a pretty high tolerance for delays and dilatory tactics.  All in the game, yo.

And, most of this dilatory shit is at least theoretically available to any party to litigation.  They just have to be able to afford it and have lawyers willing to do it.  And, in many cases, it's not strictly a matter of affording it, but that it doesn't survive any cost-benefit analysis.  Some are willing to do it/spend on it despite the low likelihood of success.

Like this latest stunt to the Supreme Court.  It's not going to get Trump much, even delay.  Therefore, most litigants wouldn't have bothered, no matter how deep their pockets.

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5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, as lawdogs we have a pretty high tolerance for delays and dilatory tactics.  All in the game, yo.

 

I would expect lawdogs to eagerly anticipate delays and dilatory tactics because billable hours.

I say this as a software consultant that has experience with billable hours.

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