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The James Webb Space Telescope Thread


sidis

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41 minutes ago, ClubWhatever said:

How did all that fucking shit start out at a single point?

Once we get to approximately 10^-43 seconds in time within the “Big Bang” going backwards in time (which is called the Planck Era), all of our physics and mathematics break down unfortunately. 

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17 minutes ago, sidis said:

Once we get to approximately 10^-43 seconds in time within the “Big Bang” going backwards in time (which is called the Planck Era), all of our physics and mathematics break down unfortunately. 

 

Isnt E-43 seconds a time quantum? 

If so, it all falls apart one time quantum after the BB. Interesting.

 

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8 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

There are more things in heaven and earth horatio than are dreamt of in your philosophy 

I just read Tyson”s book about Astrophysics for the masses.  He has this quote in there.  I really enjoyed that book, even if he is supposedly a sleaze.   He actually made a joke about the badass meme.  

Edited by ClubWhatever
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6 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

That spiral galaxy in the lower left corner of the wide field looks pretty nifty as well

that barred spiral galaxy is about a billion light years away.  lots of young blue stars in it.  it is actually a good exercise in relative scale in terms of size and distance.  it takes light just over 4 hours to get from neptune to earth.  so the light from neptune captured left a few hours before it was captured.  the light from the spiral galaxy left 8,760,000,000,000 hours ago and they look the same size.

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57 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

You'd think something called "The Pillars of Creation" would be mentioned more in religious texts.  

My daughter is absolutely obsessed with space/astronomy.  I probably pushed it on her too much, but Webb has been astonishing to her.  We finally had to have the talk a couple weeks ago after she asked me about planets like ours out there in all those galaxies.  She kinda grasps how each little image represents hundreds of millions if not hundreds of billions of starts each with the possibility of 10x that many hospitable planets.  I realize I'm doing shorthand, but Dad can't explain the Drake Equation yet.  She'd get it, I don't remember it ;) 

but i told her within her lifetime, we are absolutely going to find planets like ours out there with life, of some sort on them, and she is not to be scared no matter what other people around her do or say.  It doesn't mean she is any less special, it just means we are part of something much, much bigger than we've been led to believe.  And she smiled a bit, perhaps to appease me.  Then she asked if she could visit those planets once we find them.  I said, "Sorry, we can't leave the solar system in your lifetime...but perhaps we can at least view them or send them a signal."  she frowned.  But I finished with, "But they may be capable of visiting you during your lifetime.  And for the very simple reason, they saw that you were looking for them, they may come to say hello."  And she smiled a 1000watt grin.  

We are nowhere near the Thing.  But we were alive in the thing that got us to the thing.

Outstanding Young Texas-Exes winner, Pamela August (title is I believe Deputy Chief of Flight Ops at JSC so I believe she's there at Mission Control on the floor).  Asked me about my daughter's love of space.  Unfortunately she gets made fun of already in 2nd grade by girls who think space is only for boys and she should be into other stuff.  Pamela wrote her a very nice note about sticking with her love of the stars.  And my daughter crushed it when she asked, "Why do you want to go Mars young lady?"  And my girl replied, "Because it's what's next for us."  Pamela gave us a standing offer for private tour at JSC next time we're in Houston.  And we're totally doing it.  God bless y'all at NASA and beyond.  I can't believe where we're at already.

We need all the brilliant people, men and women combined, we can get in the quest to explore our boundaries. 

There's a good YouTube channel by a British female astronomer where she explains a lot of things for the layman. It sounds like your daughter is pretty young but she may get a kick out of it and could possibly grow into some of the more complicated topics, and seeing women living that life and doing the work can only be good in balancing out the negative stereotypes she's already facing. 

https://youtube.com/c/DrBecky

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Have some rep.  That looks awesome.  We finally have a quiet weekend next weekend and plan to watch this with her.  

Every morning she asks me when the next Artemis launch window is gonna be...and every day I have to tell her (but I don't say it out loud)...lemme go check with the science nerds with football and drinking issues on surly.  But Webb imagery has been such a reboot and reinvigoration of her interest the last couple months.  Plus I found the box of stuff I had signed for her when she was a baby by some other astronauts and NASA personnel.  Some of it is a little heavy on the "girls in space!" stuff, but I just tell her, "We need more girls interested in space...but first and foremost...NASA needs to keep your interested in science and exploring, then they need you to work harder at math just like Daddy needs to, and finally...they need you to keep asking tough questions.  That's how you get us up there."  But yeah, she has my penchant for understanding complex systems but my same gift for math which is to answer the easy questions, throw your pencil, and storm away from the table.  Not saying I'm telemetry material...

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19 hours ago, RamjetFDO said:

(disclaimer: not my work, but damned cool)

Hubble-to-Webb-Pillars-of-Creation.gif.3ae3ee976fe70eb97e2f4442b02f3643.gif

The sheer scale of ‘things’ in space absolutely blows my mind.  Isn't this structure at least a light year in overall length?  In addition to being a gorgeous image with mind-bending implications, I’d love to know what it actually looks like in visible light even though the IR data has more scientific value…I’d assume redshift is not a factor given how ‘close’ it is.  
 

Provided the Great Filter is behind us (which I think is unlikely), the only reason I’d want to live ‘forever’ would be to get the answers to questions I hope mankind ultimately answers…a unified theory of everything, is heat death the legit end state for the universe, do strange stars exist (outside of Randy Quaid), is our singularity concept what actually happens in the core of a black hole, etc.  

Given all that, the JWST is a small step towards better understanding of our universe and I’m so glad to see it’s incredibly delicate launch going so well. 

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9 minutes ago, Homercles said:

The sheer scale of ‘things’ in space absolutely blows my mind.  Isn't this structure at least a light year in overall length?  In addition to being a gorgeous image with mind-bending implications, I’d love to know what it actually looks like in visible light even though the IR data has more scientific value…I’d assume redshift is not a factor given how ‘close’ it is.  
 

Provided the Great Filter is behind us (which I think is unlikely), the only reason I’d want to live ‘forever’ would be to get the answers to questions I hope mankind ultimately answers…a unified theory of everything, is heat death the legit end state for the universe, do strange stars exist (outside of Randy Quaid), is our singularity concept what actually happens in the core of a black hole, etc.  

Given all that, the JWST is a small step towards better understanding of our universe and I’m so glad to see it’s incredibly delicate launch going so well. 

The longest one on the left is about 4 to 5 light years long. So about 24 trillion miles. Almost as big as our national debt. 

Also the hubble image there is showing it in the visible light spectrum. 

Edited by Hermanator
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2 hours ago, ohchaucer said:

Could someone explain to me like I’m five what the consensus is (or if there is one) on whether the Great Filter is ahead or behind us? And are we really closer to the final step at an interstellar scale?

there's no consensus...can't really be.  it's one of many theories to answer the fermi paradox and by no means the accepted theory on why we, as a 10-30 thousand year old existence in the 14 billion year old universe haven't observed or been visited by an extraterrestrial civilization that it would take about ten seconds for any functional adult to come up with.

in terms of the strict parameters of your question, within the constraints of the theory, humans are currently on step 7 of 8 of the great filter hypothesis.  in my opinion, i believe we are currently in the great filter step to the extent we accept the theory.  certainly step 1 is the most fundamentally necessary step and the overwhelming majority of the exoplanets we are currently capable of studying don't meet 1 for life (as we currently know and understand it as it relates to conditions necessary for it to exist).  however, that is merely a matter of numbers and jwst has already identified a reasonably decent candidate.  once those conditions are there, then steps 2-7 are just a matter of time and conditions remaining consistent (no exogenous variables such as extinction events like asteroids, etc...).  a civilization being in step 7 also requires them not to destroy themselves as we see every day here in addition to exogenous variables.  but the reason i say 7 to 8 is probably the hardest is due to the constraints of physics and the length of any single part of the species' lifetime.  distance, velocity, and time constraints are so significant that making the jump to 8 requires technology that would resemble magic or sci-fi to us currently.

but we are only at a few thousand years into 7.  so who knows...it is a purely philosophical question in which a few steps could be argued as the most improbable to the extent we accept the fermi paradox as something that doesn't have an obvious explanation.

Edited by sidis
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2 hours ago, ohchaucer said:

Could someone explain to me like I’m five what the consensus is (or if there is one) on whether the Great Filter is ahead or behind us? And are we really closer to the final step at an interstellar scale?

There's no consensus if the proposed solution to the Fermi Paradox is legitimate much less to any particular point being a great filter. 

If it is real then could be anything from the filter point of abiogenisis being more rare than we believe all the way up to stuff like once an intelligent species masters a certain level of AI they create their own demise and AI creatures don't have a desire to populate other places due to not having the same evolutionary desires as a biological species. 

One popular thought is that the trait in any biological species that would lead it to quest for intergalactic travel will ultimately be what causes it's undoing before that level of technology can be achieved. The greed, desire for power, etc it takes to achieve such things will make any civilization that has them wipe itself out before it can reach that level. 

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3 hours ago, sidis said:

once those conditions are there, then steps 2-7 are just a matter of time and conditions remaining consistent (no exogenous variables such as extinction events like asteroids, etc...).  

I agree with you that abiogenesis and the last step of colonization space are large filters (last step may not even be possible), but I don't think progression up to 7 is just a matter of time.  Human's acquisition of language that enables an infinite variety of hierarchically structured expressions is not well understood, but some believe that development is as unlikely as abiogenesis (I think Chomsky takes this view, although I can't recall where I read that).   

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15 hours ago, axiom of foundation said:

I agree with you that abiogenesis and the last step of colonization space are large filters (last step may not even be possible), but I don't think progression up to 7 is just a matter of time.  Human's acquisition of language that enables an infinite variety of hierarchically structured expressions is not well understood, but some believe that development is as unlikely as abiogenesis (I think Chomsky takes this view, although I can't recall where I read that).   

Fair point. It is easy and convenient to oversimplify fairly complicated processes and evolutions when speaking  in cosmic timelines. but in terms of 2-7, you are really talking about the tail end of 6 through 7. Plenty of species on earth alone (and who knows about countless other worlds) would easily meet 2-6. The leap to 7 is undoubtedly the big one given that of the countless variety of living organisms on earth, only one has gotten there. But it is baseless speculation to try and extrapolate as to the probability of that occurring when the sweet spot conditions like earth exist and enough time elapses without extinction events…we have no idea whether the likelihood of those conditions coming together is more likely…or life evolving to step 7 is more likely once life gets to 6 as we are unfortunately only far along enough on 7 to have an observation number of one. 

for now, largely philosophical. 

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1 hour ago, tbone_ said:

Very cool.

Are you saying that first picture is a snapshot of 3 millions years ago (3 million light years away)?

the blue/cyan stars are from approximately 3 million years ago.  the larger galaxies in the background of the image are substantially farther away (billions of light years) and, as a result, are substantially older than the stars in the wlm dwarf galaxy.  here's a crude diagram to simplify (not to scale):

1366755597_Screenshot2022-12-01134649.thumb.png.776bb8bed2dc0578669bbaa88ea14c7d.png

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  • sidis changed the title to The James Webb Space Telescope Thread

 
here's a look at the heart of the phantom galaxy comparing the famous hst optical images with the jwst (along with a composite).  amazing how much more shit is there than we can see (right click to check out full size).
potm2208c.jpg
 

Any theories on what that “hole” is near the bottom left? You can see the stars behind the galaxy which I would assume are even tens of thousands of light years further away.

Not saying it’s a worm hole but it’s a worm hole.
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that would be nice but the real explanation is far more boring unfortunately.

it is entirely a function of different wavelengths of light and what scatters light at each wavelength.  you'll notice that in the optical image from hst (which is optical), there does not appear to be a hole but instead light, (blueish colored) non-dense dust and gasses.  in jwst, it looks like it is just an empty hole of space.  that is because jwst is capturing the infrared wavelength instead of optical.  infrared is a longer wavelength than the visible light from hst and passes through denser regions of space than optical without the light scattering...meaning it looks like nothing is there.  so the distant high energy infrared light sources appear to just pass through the gas/dust untouched through a hole even thought it isn't really a hole.  it's just a non-dense area of dust/gas and matter in that portion of the galaxy in which the infrared just passes right through without scattering.  you see the same thing in the top right of the image.

a terrible, but easily understood analogy would be imagine everything in the left picture is skin.  that's what we see when we look at it with our eyes.  now imagine everything on the right is bones.  when we look at it in x-ray wave lengths, it looks like the skin goes away and all that is left is bones.  sure, there was non-dense skin that doesn't scatter x-ray light there, but there are no bones either so it looks like a big hole in the image.  why there is such a drastic change in density there is simply a function of the governing dynamics of galactic formation.

Edited by sidis
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6 hours ago, sidis said:

that would be nice but the real explanation is far more boring unfortunately.

it is entirely a function of different wavelengths of light and what scatters light at each wavelength.  you'll notice that in the optical image from hst (which is optical), there does not appear to be a hole but instead light, (blueish colored) non-dense dust and gasses.  in jwst, it looks like it is just an empty hole of space.  that is because jwst is capturing the infrared wavelength instead of optical.  infrared is a longer wavelength than the visible light from hst and passes through denser regions of space than optical without the light scattering...meaning it looks like nothing is there.  so the distant high energy infrared light sources appear to just pass through the gas/dust untouched through a hole even thought it isn't really a hole.  it's just a non-dense area of dust/gas and matter in that portion of the galaxy in which the infrared just passes right through without scattering.  you see the same thing in the top right of the image.

a terrible, but easily understood analogy would be imagine everything in the left picture is skin.  that's what we see when we look at it with our eyes.  now imagine everything on the right is bones.  when we look at it in x-ray wave lengths, it looks like the skin goes away and all that is left is bones.  sure, there was non-dense skin that doesn't scatter x-ray light there, but there are no bones either so it looks like a big hole in the image.  why there is such a drastic change in density there is simply a function of the governing dynamics of galactic formation.

 

 

Reads like a fancy way of saying, it's a wormhole

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JWST has been busy (as have I unfortunately...causing a delay in some worthwhile updates).
a beautiful picture of NGC 1365.  nice detail on the "bar" part of a double-barred spiral galaxy formation about 56 million light years away from us in mid-infrared.  incredible to get resolution to individual stars in the core and newly-formed clusters in the inner star formation ring.
STScI-01GSBJ73K33AG9ARJ49E519AXK.png
 
ngc 1433.  also mid-infrared.  crazy double ringed structure that appears to be a bar from a distance nestled in the rest of the galaxy.  this one is 46 million light years and has a supermassive black hole at its center that is hungry AF and consumes material at an astounding rate.
STScI-01GS7ZWFFAMJFSB6XXHRVQ7147.png
 
wr 124 star in both near infrared and mid-infrared composite.  the stellar emissions are not smooth for this star but instead somewhat randomized as betrayed by the stellar dust cloud surrounding it.
STScI-01GTYADEF13KM9VG4KV9RNWGX8.png
 
the one you've all been waiting for...uranus.  in near infrared both zoomed in and a wider field.  something cool about this is that you can see the polar cap on the planet because, just as a reminder, uranus is the only planet that is tilted entirely on its side and rotates on that basis and causing rather extremes seasons.  you're effectively looking at its "north pole."  the two other bright spots on the planet are not lens flares but actually clouds.
STScI-01GWQDPJTF1MY8ZGN4WBMWMACJ.png
STScI-01GWQDW4FWKF07F074EWC579J7.png
 
supernova (or exploding star) remnant we all know as cassiopeia a in mid infrared...this is about ten light years across.  never has extreme violence been so beautiful.
STScI-01GWQC2N0MCSM6PX1Z6A8FBYQM.png
 
another comparison of jwst with hubble and their relative sensitivity.  the same deep field that took over 11 days of exposure time on hst vs. .83 days on jwst.  significant disparity in sensitivity to say the least.
STScI-01GXE5DTTB8YSYKF5MNBT5WPP1.png
 
finally, super cool spectroscopy result on an exoplanet about 40 light years away called vhs 1256b.  this planet orbits two stars at once which is unique.  this is showing what the composition of the planet's clouds in its atmosphere.  i'll put the full explanation of its findings below in spoiler.
STScI-01GVK9HWA971609GK3M9FJ02RY.jpg
 
Spoiler

Based on observations of many other exoplanets by many telescopes, the researchers know to look for signatures of clouds in particular areas in the spectrum. Signatures of silicates appears before and after 10 microns, a particular wavelength of infrared light.
There is likely a layer of very small grain silicate clouds higher up in the atmosphere. These silicates are finer, more like smoke particles, and are responsible for creating the plateau near 10 microns. Somewhat larger grain clouds are likely a bit deeper. Some particles in these clouds may be about the size of small grains of silt.
The combined evidence of fluctuations in the planet’s brightness over time and the different cloud layers in the spectrum point to turbulent weather on VHS 1256 b. “These detections reflect that the planet’s cloud patterns change fairly rapidly,” explained Beth Biller of the University of Edinburgh in Scotland. If the researchers were to take more, and longer, observations of the planet, they would see the spectrum shape shift as the locations of the clouds move, reflecting that the clouds are rapidly shifting through the planet’s atmosphere during its 22-hour rotation.
But these aren’t like clouds high in Earth’s atmosphere. These clouds are hot – akin to the temperature of a candle flame. Earth’s upper atmosphere is thin and would feel extremely cold.
The researchers also made extraordinarily clear detections of water, methane and carbon monoxide with Webb, and found evidence of carbon dioxide. It’s too early to tell what this combination of molecules might mean, though, since the data need to be fully modeled. “Webb’s high-resolution data are stressing our existing models,” notes Polychronis Patapis of ETH Zurich in Switzerland. “Existing models can ingest one or two features, but not as many as Webb has shown us of this target.” This is an extraordinarily exciting moment for researchers – it means there is an amazing amount to learn as they revamp models to fit these data.
Webb’s observations of VHS 1256 b highlight many of its technical strengths. Not only do its instruments detect a wide range of near- and mid-infrared light, Webb’s position in space means that the telescope can observe more infrared light than is accessible on Earth – and it captures the details in high resolution. (Earth’s atmosphere filters out some near-infrared and all mid-infrared light.) “Webb has effectively doubled the wavelength range that we’re able to capture,” said Brittany Miles of the University of Arizona, the paper’s lead author. “To top that off, we only needed seven hours to capture the spectrum, which is practically overflowing with details.”
VHS 1256 b is about 40 light-years away in the constellation Corvus. It orbits not one, but two stars, which are tightly orbiting one another. The planet lies about four times farther from its stars than Pluto is from our Sun. Although a single day on this planet is 22 hours long, it takes 10,000 years to complete a single orbit or year.

 


I wonder if there are any good deals on rental properties in these pics.
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jwst observations made by team called ceers led by some astronomers/researchers from ut are challenging some previously held theories feeding the standard model on early universe galactic and stellar formation.  this image in particular...

CEERS-NIRCAM-Maisie-220804.png

in layman's terms, the zoomed red dot is a galaxy that's been named maisie's galaxy (along with five other identified galaxies since) which is named after the lead researcher's (a research at the university of texas) daughter. based on its preliminary measurement of redshift, masie's galaxy is approximately 500-700 million years after the theoretical timing of the big bang.  

critically, follow up analysis and measurement is necessary to confirm the preliminary estimates so all this is still in the preliminary phase.  it is possible that some supermassive black holes are effectively brightening and distorting measurements of mass or that certain types of dust are affecting the apparent redshift (and perception of distance) so that's why more precise spectroscopy using jwst is necessary.

however, if the timing and mass are correct based on spectroscopy, these infant time period galaxies are absolutely fucking massive...one even larger than the milky way is today.  that isn't expected/predicted under the standard model of cosmology and raises some significant questions about how these early stage galaxies formed so massively, so quickly...and how they consumed and converted nearly 100% of their gas into stellar formation when we typically see only about 10% conversion in more mature galaxies.  it would require quite a bit of revision to the standard model and a need to better understand why/how there was more matter to available in forming early stars and galaxies than previously believed.  lots of implications with regards to dark matter halos and the rate of expansion in the universe.

and taking a step back and having a just smoked a bowl moment, you are looking at an image of something that's light left on its journey to us approximately 13 billion years ago. 

here are some other cool images from the same ceers survey images...clicking on the below should blow it up.

CEERS-NIRCAM-Details-220804.png

1 is a spiral galaxy with a large number of blue star-forming clumps and star clusters. 2 is an alignment of a bright galaxy with several smaller galaxies forming an arc. 3 is an interacting system of galaxies colliding. 4 is two interacting spiral galaxies...and the arrow is pointing to an active supernova. 5 is another spiral galaxy and 6 is a grouping of red galaxies and a good sized galaxy showing a tidal tail.

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3 minutes ago, sidis said:

some good stuff from jwst...

more near infrared outer solar system portraits to go along with neptune, uranus, and jupiter...saturn's turn.  the reason the planet looks so dark compared to the rings is the composition - the planet has a lot of methane which absorbs infrared light while the rings are made up of a lot of ice and dust which do not.

STScI-01H41MPWAVF7SRQSHZWQNYV2J0.png

 

here's a supernova in mid-infrared from 22 million light years away.  some of these observations are supporting the theories that supernovae provided a substantial source of early universe dust that was so critical to its evolution.

STScI-01H3D1S4XW04PX7S4QEN08GHVY.png

 

below is some spectroscopy on the now famous ancient galaxies recently discovered showing tell tale signs of black holes with a mass similar to the one at the center of the milky way.  these are galaxies that formed and existed only about a billion years after the big bang in the era of reionization so pretty remarkable.  the researchers that discovered these two black holes are at the university of texas.

STScI-01H28X2YX4JNCFE3XFX39YPDKK.png

 

this is the rho ophiuchi cloud complex which is the closest star formation region to us.  lots of baby stars visible if you zoom in with protoplanetary disks that will eventually become solar systems.  perhaps the great programmer has a sense of humor as it looks like south austin's mom's clitoral hood over a gaping vagina to me spurring life to me.

STScI-01H44AVB69N1P8RAEJ12NW2RB2.png

 

this is a phenomenal, phenomenal picture of two stars in their early formation stage in near infrared.  the disk of gas surrounding them is still adding to their mass as they grow.  the big lobes around them are prior ejections of gas from the stars' formations.  that happens when the star effectively "eats" too much material too fast and start spinning too fast, they eject out the material through two sided jets which helps normalize the star's spin and regulating how much mass the star retains. 

STScI-01H5309J2AAYSABKVQ89R7V44T.png

 

also, if you haven't noticed it yet on netflix, definitely recommend unknown: cosmic time machine.  https://www.netflix.com/title/81473680

None of this explains why aliens are so interested in probing my butt.  So......meh.

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17 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Good to know - Netflix has had some really off/on documentaries so I stopped catching most of them.

this one will definitely make you feel a little bit better about humanity and a good reminder that there are still some awesome people out there working together for worthwhile stuff who don't suck.

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