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Israel-Hamas war thread


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26 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

Give us your numbers then @statsman.

Lets make this a little easier. It doesn't matter where values come from, there will be always variation in a set of collected numbers. The more complex the system, the greater the likelihood of significant variations. In this case, we don't have any significant variations. How is that possible? This is actually how a vast majority of in-house fraud is caught in production processes. People know what the outcome data "should" look like, but don't know enough about the input processes to really make believable fake underlying data.

The numbers are obviously manipulated because they are "too perfect". Lets start with aggregate data and then go from there.  Instead of having some days that there are huge spikes and other days with little loss of life (ie a major battle one day and then the IDF pulling back to regroup the next or bombing a market one day and not the next), the daily loss of life was 270+- 15% or a range of 230 - 311 . Where are the peaks and valleys in the data? Any form of casualty data of civilian populations will have a significantly greater spread than what is being portrayed. As an example, the war(s) in the Balkans showed massive variation in civilian losses on a daily (and even weekly) basis.  Where are the outliers here? We should be seeing days of 400-500 and days of 50-100, not an almost perfect set of data confined to a set of boundary criteria with a mean of 270.

Then you fall into the issue that the number of children casualties is not tied to the number of women casualties. How is that possible in this type of indiscriminate bombing? Then the number of women killed is strongly negatively related to the number of male casualties. So when men die in combat that day, then the daily reporting of female losses goes down predictably. But yet the loss of the children remains unrelated to the men. In what scenario is that logically possible? Then you get to the weird data artifacts like when the few days that male losses were at or close to 0,  the female death toll for the day skyrockets (while the children casualty figures remained steady those days). How does that play out in a combat scenario?

This data was being generated not reported, with a specific daily number in mind. More than likely they decided that the daily losses should be approximately 70% women and children and 30% males. So they did some type of random assignment and went from there. Once they had a women and children number, they then subtracted that off from the random number selected from the 230-311 "expected" casualty figure and then took out the women and children to get the males.  Those steps would mirror the weird artifacts in the data.

 

So what are the real numbers? Who knows. All I can tell you is that these values are obviously manipulated.

 

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14 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Is there actually anything to the mistrust of these numbers based on empirical data/actual intelligence or is it just a general feeling of mistrust because the numbers come from Gaza?

As far as I can tell, the numbers they report have been considered historically reliable by most entities including various major news outlets around the world, our own State Department, Israeli Intelligence, the UN, and various NGOs that track this kind of stuff. I can't find an instance online where the deviation from the reported numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry was more than a few percentage points away from anyone else's numbers.

What percentage of the reported casualties are direct or indirect human shields, for whom Hamas is responsible? Did they factor that into the analysis before declaring Israel is responsible for these deaths? 

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1 hour ago, Laxtonto said:

Lets make this a little easier. It doesn't matter where values come from, there will be always variation in a set of collected numbers. The more complex the system, the greater the likelihood of significant variations. In this case, we don't have any significant variations. How is that possible? This is actually how a vast majority of in-house fraud is caught in production processes. People know what the outcome data "should" look like, but don't know enough about the input processes to really make believable fake underlying data.

The numbers are obviously manipulated because they are "too perfect". Lets start with aggregate data and then go from there.  Instead of having some days that there are huge spikes and other days with little loss of life (ie a major battle one day and then the IDF pulling back to regroup the next or bombing a market one day and not the next), the daily loss of life was 270+- 15% or a range of 230 - 311 . Where are the peaks and valleys in the data? Any form of casualty data of civilian populations will have a significantly greater spread than what is being portrayed. As an example, the war(s) in the Balkans showed massive variation in civilian losses on a daily (and even weekly) basis.  Where are the outliers here? We should be seeing days of 400-500 and days of 50-100, not an almost perfect set of data confined to a set of boundary criteria with a mean of 270.

Then you fall into the issue that the number of children casualties is not tied to the number of women casualties. How is that possible in this type of indiscriminate bombing? Then the number of women killed is strongly negatively related to the number of male casualties. So when men die in combat that day, then the daily reporting of female losses goes down predictably. But yet the loss of the children remains unrelated to the men. In what scenario is that logically possible? Then you get to the weird data artifacts like when the few days that male losses were at or close to 0,  the female death toll for the day skyrockets (while the children casualty figures remained steady those days). How does that play out in a combat scenario?

This data was being generated not reported, with a specific daily number in mind. More than likely they decided that the daily losses should be approximately 70% women and children and 30% males. So they did some type of random assignment and went from there. Once they had a women and children number, they then subtracted that off from the random number selected from the 230-311 "expected" casualty figure and then took out the women and children to get the males.  Those steps would mirror the weird artifacts in the data.

 

So what are the real numbers? Who knows. All I can tell you is that these values are obviously manipulated.

 

That’s a lot of words for, “who could know?”

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10 hours ago, statsman said:

There is a science to noting bogus numbers. Generally, it comes down to numerical facets (last digit) or the number itself not being normally distributed. The author, Abraham Wyner, explains that. 
 
He also points out that:

Hamas is reporting 30k dead, militants and civilians. 
Hamas reports 70% of the dead as women and children. 
Hamas reports 20% dead as militants. 
 

Does that make any sense? That IDF are more likely to kill women and children than men? That almost all of the men are Hamas militants?

Before this started, about half of Gaza's population was under 18.  So it's not remotely surprising that AI-targeted bombings with significantly loosened standards for what are "acceptable" civilian casualties as collateral damage would disproportionately result in dead children. 

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33 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

That’s a lot of words for, “who could know?”

That’s a lot of words to say “these numbers are full of shit” and so if you want a real number go find a legitimate source on the ground or worse case dissect the IDF numbers and then probably work out a multiplier for it.

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Weird atrocity denial angle this thread has taken. 

I don’t think it’s denial to question numbers that have evidence that they are problematic. Remember the rocket that bombed a hospital (reported by the same organization that is calculating these numbers) that the whole media ran with? Turns out it was a misfired rocket from Hamas that hit a parking lot. If a hospital was hit by a rocket and 100+ people were killed there would have been evidence of it. But those numbers were included in these totals despite any evidence and that is problematic.

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3 minutes ago, TKthunder2 said:

I don’t think it’s denial to question numbers that have evidence that they are problematic.

The numbers are frankly irrelevant. Shave whatever multiple you want off the top. It is obscene. And it is funded by our tax dollars. But I guess it may feel better for some if we get to argue about whether you carry the one or not. 

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15 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The numbers are frankly irrelevant. Shave whatever multiple you want off the top. It is obscene. And it is funded by our tax dollars. But I guess it may feel better for some if we get to argue about whether you carry the one or not. 

I’ll disagree that it’s not important as pro-Palestinian groups and government actors including even Biden are using them like they are official to make a point and win hearts and minds.

Still we agree that a single civilian death is too many but that is war. When Gaza voted Hamas into power it was never going to end peacefully. I don’t like or condone Israel’s actions nor the US funding them. I can keep these thoughts in my head while also acknowledging that Hamas is making this as deadly and painful as possible for everyone intentionally and we should not reward that tactic as it will only lead to more pain and suffering.

It’s a giant shit sandwich, and we’re going to eat it one way or another.

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1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

We're funding and arming one side of it. So we get to put a little relish on top of that sandwich. 

We are funding both. The $ we give the Gulf states to offset their security allows them to fund fun groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Talibs, etc.

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Just now, InkaUtexas said:

We are funding both. The $ we give the Gulf states to offset their security allows them to fund fun groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Talibs, etc.

We are flying C130s full of bombs into Tel Aviv under emergency declarations. If you want to both sides that, I can appreciate the angle. We should not be arming any of the genocidal lunatics in the middle east. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/

The United States has quietly approved and delivered more than 100 separate foreign military sales to Israel since the Gaza war began Oct. 7, amounting to thousands of precision-guided munitions, small-diameter bombs, bunker busters, small arms and other lethal aid, U.S. officials told members of Congress in a recent classified briefing.

The triple-digit figure, which has not been previously reported, is the latest indication of Washington’s extensive involvement in the polarizing five-month conflict even as top U.S. officials and lawmakers increasingly express deep reservations about Israel’s military tactics in a campaign that has killed more than 30,000 people, according to Gaza’s health authorities.

What is clear is Washington’s deep involvement in the conflict, even if it isn’t the entity dropping the munitions or pulling the trigger, said Konyndyk, the former administration official.

“The U.S. cannot maintain that, on the one hand, Israel is a sovereign state that’s making its own decisions and we’re not going to second-guess them, and, on the other hand, transfer this level of armament in such a short time and somehow act as if we are not directly involved,” he said.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

We are flying C130s full of bombs into Tel Aviv under emergency declarations. If you want to both sides that, I can appreciate the angle. We should not be arming any of the genocidal lunatics in the middle east. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/03/06/us-weapons-israel-gaza/

The United States has quietly approved and delivered more than 100 separate foreign military sales to Israel since the Gaza war began Oct. 7, amounting to thousands of precision-guided munitions, small-diameter bombs, bunker busters, small arms and other lethal aid, U.S. officials told members of Congress in a recent classified briefing.

The triple-digit figure, which has not been previously reported, is the latest indication of Washington’s extensive involvement in the polarizing five-month conflict even as top U.S. officials and lawmakers increasingly express deep reservations about Israel’s military tactics in a campaign that has killed more than 30,000 people, according to Gaza’s health authorities.

What is clear is Washington’s deep involvement in the conflict, even if it isn’t the entity dropping the munitions or pulling the trigger, said Konyndyk, the former administration official.

“The U.S. cannot maintain that, on the one hand, Israel is a sovereign state that’s making its own decisions and we’re not going to second-guess them, and, on the other hand, transfer this level of armament in such a short time and somehow act as if we are not directly involved,” he said.

 

 

Cite your source. what about the Saudis?

Bro, no one like what is happening. But lets be honest. Hamas is not a nice group.

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40 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Cite your source.

I linked a wsj article. The html may not be visible unless you are on dark mode since I copy pasted it. 

42 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

what about the Saudis?

I was told we were going to start treating them like a pariah state. Wish we could find that gear. 

42 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Bro, no one like what is happening. But lets be honest. Hamas is not a nice group.

No one here is arguing that they are. But there are people that absolutely like what is happening right now. Don't delude yourself.  

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4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I know that and fuck them. This is war crimes live in our face. I won't call it genocide yet.

But lets remember how the Arabs treat the Palestinians. Great for the leaders, sucks for the herder/nurse/refugee.

Call it collective punishment, call it ethnic cleansing, call it genocide. Semantics we can all navel gaze while the reality is that we arm it. 

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16 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

I know that and fuck them. This is war crimes live in our face. I won't call it genocide yet.

But lets remember how the Arabs treat the Palestinians. Great for the leaders, sucks for the herder/nurse/refugee.

Could be true. If so, it's awfully weird that nobody here has posted a credible link (that didn't come from Hamas or its sympathizers).

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1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

Could be true. If so, it's awfully weird that nobody here has posted a credible link (that didn't come from Hamas or its sympathizers).

When a hospital is hit it is a war crime. That is pretty well known.

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11 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

When a hospital is hit it is a war crime. That is pretty well known.

What about when tunnels and combatants and hostages are hidden in and under the hospital?

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On 3/14/2024 at 8:25 PM, InkaUtexas said:

We are funding both. The $ we give the Gulf states to offset their security allows them to fund fun groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Talibs, etc.

And loosening sanctions on Iran helped. 

 

 

We should send more. 

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3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

When a hospital is hit it is a war crime. That is pretty well known.

I agree, if Israel hits a hospital, it is a war crime that is attributable to Hamas and the deaths are on Hamas. The use of human shields is a war crime, in a legal sense. 

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On 3/14/2024 at 11:13 AM, Brian Fantana said:

What are the IDF numbers and how do they differ?

The IDF claims to have killed 12k Hamas militants, twice the Hamas count. I think militaries, even trying to be accurate, overcount their enemy casualties. 

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On 3/14/2024 at 8:25 PM, InkaUtexas said:

We are funding both. The $ we give the Gulf states to offset their security allows them to fund fun groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, the Talibs, etc.

I listened to a WSJ podcast where their reporter in Israel said the Israelis were like “WTF” about US negotiations with Iran, where they are promised sanctions will be lifted if Iran stops sending missiles to Russia. Israelis say, “What do you think they’re going to do with that money?”

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Here’s a question, and if it’s better suited for CR, I can take it there-

Hamas’ military is funded by Iran. Shortly after 10-7, the WSJ reported that Iran helped plan 10-7. What was Iran’s plan? Was it tied into the other ME activities? Was it a favor to their Russian allies, to take attention and pressure from them?

 Also- was Hamas expecting Hezbollah to join in, from the north? I know Israel has been wary of Hezbollah this whole time, keeping forces in place near them.  
 
In conclusion, what exactly was the plan?

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13 hours ago, statsman said:

Here’s a question, and if it’s better suited for CR, I can take it there-

Hamas’ military is funded by Iran. Shortly after 10-7, the WSJ reported that Iran helped plan 10-7. What was Iran’s plan? Was it tied into the other ME activities? Was it a favor to their Russian allies, to take attention and pressure from them?

 Also- was Hamas expecting Hezbollah to join in, from the north? I know Israel has been wary of Hezbollah this whole time, keeping forces in place near them.  
 
In conclusion, what exactly was the plan?

This? The war is going swimmingly for Hamas and Iran:

- Israel’s normalization paths with other Arab states are on ice

- Iran and its proxies are emboldened to launch strikes at American targets and disrupt shipping

- World opinion shifted in a big way against Israel and its friends, disrupting what we can do on other fronts

- We have a whole fucking CSG tied down wasting munitions on the gotdam Houthis 

- An entire generation of Palestinians and Israelis will never be able to even make an overture at serious peace and reconciliation talk

- Not to go full CR, but what IF the presidency comes down to the wire and the Michigan Arab-American vote loses it for Biden? These dipshits basically tilted the course of U.S. history in a big way

I can’t emphasize enough that “winning” would be terrible for Hamas. Killing half the country and destroying every building is much better.  Peace and calm leaves little use for a terrorist government that can’t do anything, the latter is actually the optimum environment for them. 
 

Truly intolerable that the global hegemon is so entwined in this squalid quarrel.  We really need to tell everyone that we are done except for leveling any shithead that dares strike a ship.  With dumb bombs and not the expensive stuff.  

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1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

AIPAC running with the aggy-like Wyner piece now from Tablet. This is how propaganda and atrocity denial work together. 

 

Let’s try an experiment. Try to counter or criticize the Tablet article without resorting to these logic fallacies:

Appeal to Authority- “The Hamas numbers have been accepted before by the UN(RWA)”

Ad Hominem- “The author has written for conservatives and is Jewish”

In other words, if you don’t like the conclusion, try to counter the analysis, and find errors 

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2 hours ago, statsman said:

 

Let’s try an experiment. Try to counter or criticize the Tablet article without resorting to these logic fallacies:

Appeal to Authority- “The Hamas numbers have been accepted before by the UN(RWA)”

Ad Hominem- “The author has written for conservatives and is Jewish”

In other words, if you don’t like the conclusion, try to counter the analysis, and find errors 

It's aggy data analysis. His primary argument is that the data lack the variance that would be expected in real world data. To demonstrate, the author uses a highly selected timeframe constraining the observations included from the larger dataset to reduce variance. The sleight of hand here should be pretty obvious. We don't even have to jump into a discussion of modelling complex real world phenomena here.

 

Quote

 

Here’s the problem with this data: The numbers are not real. That much is obvious to anyone who understands how naturally occurring numbers work. The casualties are not overwhelmingly women and children, and the majority may be Hamas fighters.

If Hamas’ numbers are faked or fraudulent in some way, there may be evidence in the numbers themselves that can demonstrate it. While there is not much data available, there is a little, and it is enough: From Oct. 26 until Nov. 10, 2023, the Gaza Health Ministry released daily casualty figures that include both a total number and a specific number of women and children.

The first place to look is the reported “total” number of deaths. The graph of total deaths by date is increasing with almost metronomical linearity, as the graph in Figure 1 reveals.

This regularity is almost surely not real. One would expect quite a bit of variation day to day. In fact, the daily reported casualty count over this period averages 270 plus or minus about 15%. This is strikingly little variation. There should be days with twice the average or more and others with half or less. Perhaps what is happening is the Gaza ministry is releasing fake daily numbers that vary too little because they do not have a clear understanding of the behavior of naturally occurring numbers. Unfortunately, verified control data is not available to formally test this conclusion, but the details of the daily counts render the numbers suspicious.

image.thumb.png.b07218764eb62c502731d76a0801c78a.png 

 

Laying aside the absolute absurdity of using figure 1 in this way, let's look at the actual data. The author selected data ranging from 10/27-11/10. Note that he did not justify this date range in his article dated Mar 6. Why throw out the reported deaths prior to 10/27? Why not consider any of the deaths after 11/10? These are pretty obvious questions, right?  The is no acknowledgement nor justification for the selection of this particular time frame. 

Here is the dataset that Wyner used, linked directly from the Tablet piece (note that he appears to have a data entry error in the cumulative death total for 10/27, amateur hour shit easily quality checked by reference to the OCHA data here: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-21

Quote

ef1bd6044cc680ac1ba75baddfbb1b0985293191

 Here is a link to a far more robust dataset that reports cumulative deaths from 10/7/23 to 03/17/24 in csv format: https://data.techforpalestine.org/api/v2/casualties_daily.csv

 Wyner's cumulative death data correspond with the cumulative death data in the csv (with the exception of the one that the fat fingered 7362 instead of 7326. 

Here is the full time daily death totals. Wyner's time frame is represented by the overlapping blue bars. Do you see how obviously ridiculous this is? The variance is highly sensitive to the timeframe that was selected. It's more than ridiculous. It looks to me like straight up attempt to deceive with cherry picked data.  

wyner.jpg

 

 

Edited by Anastasis
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So, I just read a tech nerd discussion of the data, which argues there really is a reasonable daily variance in the data, if you assume a Poisson distribution rather than a normal distribution. 
 
There hasn’t been a rebuttal of Wyner’s noting lack of correlation in reported daily deaths of women and children (you would expect them to be highly correlated). The best explanation (other than the data being invented) is that there is a lag in the data being tabulated, and that Hamas Ministry of Health really shouldn’t try to provide daily totals. 

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6 hours ago, Anastasis said:

AIPAC running with the aggy-like Wyner piece now from Tablet. This is how propaganda and atrocity denial work together. 

 

 

I don't need to dispute your numbers, I simply don't think they are relevant to the moral evaluation of Israeli conduct.

Reference was made above to attacking a hospital is a war crime. Well, Hamas know the PR value of that kind of thing. So way before 7 OCT, they built out a network of hospitals across Gaza. Real hospitals, they get the PR for taking care of folks. But, they were ALL OF THEM colocated with military assets. This was a deliberate strategy by Hamas. Some call it the Dead Baby Strategy. It's kind of what they do.

Prior to the D-Day landings on Normandy, we bombed the ever living shit out of the countryside. the French countryside. Populated by French citizens, who presumably, hated the Germans and wanted us to invade. And we blew up those French civilians who were on our side. With our bombs, dropped from our airplanes. For all intensive porpoises, it was a deliberate act. It was not even close to a war crime.

America then decided that a critical vulnerability of the German war machine was ball bearings. In the plants we bombed, they weren't staffed by military, probably by mostly women. The hospitals and grocery stores and nursery schools we destroyed when our bombs missed their targets, well that was a casualty of war. Still not a war crime. 

The scenario you are proposing seems to indicate Israel should not fire back when shot at, if there are civilians at risk. I assure you, America would shoot back. And so should the Israelis. It's not much more complicated than self defense. Hamas's war crimes (using human shields) are on them, not Israel. Realistically, this is black letter law. It's not my opinion, it's how war works.  The right to fire back when attacked is God given, few people actually debate the truth of it.

The military mission of Israel is to kick Hamas out of power. How do you do that without killing their soldiers? Hamas is embedded with civilians, aiming to sacrifice as many innocents as they can. I don't know what you can do about that.

I feel for the Palestinians. I don't know what else to say. Nothing can be done, innocent lives will be lost. It is a tragedy. 

Edited by Thetexashammer
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I am torn on this issue. My simple take is this. Israel needs to hit back, but not like this. They have a strong Special Forces and Intel group. use them to take out the Hamas leaders, not level buildings. Would it be painful for both sides? Yes, but Hamas is not Gaza. Gaza is not Hamas.

Use the IDF to move aid, not block it. Set up hospitals, don't raid them.

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1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

The scenario you are proposing seems to indicate Israel should not fire back when shot at, if there are civilians at risk. I assure you, America would shoot back. And so should the Israelis. It's not much more complicated than self defense. Hamas's war crimes (using human shields) are on them, not Israel. Realistically, this is black letter law. It's not my opinion, it's how war works.  The right to fire back when attacked is God given, few people actually debate the truth of it.

 

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

I am torn on this issue. My simple take is this. Israel needs to hit back, but not like this. They have a strong Special Forces and Intel group. use them to take out the Hamas leaders, not level buildings. Would it be painful for both sides? Yes, but Hamas is not Gaza. Gaza is not Hamas.

Use the IDF to move aid, not block it. Set up hospitals, don't raid them.

 

I always find it interesting how this logic is always applied to Israel but never to Palestinians. They have been the victims of constant Israeli-backed terror in the West Bank, a place where by all rights they have absolutely no right to be (legally or morally), with thousands being killed or forcibly displaced from their homes and no one bats an eye. When an Israeli sniper takes out unarmed protestors on the other side of the Gaza fence and then cheers about it before uploading it to social media, or they use peacefully protesting Gazans as target practice and then brag to reporters about how many knees they took out that day, no one bats an eye. When an Israeli sniper (who again, should not even be where he is) domes a 9 year old kid from 300 yards away after he was simply near a protest that had already dispersed, no no bats an eye.

Those people don't have the right to self defense. Only Israelis have that right. If they fight back they're branded terrorists and their lives are subsequently forfeit. In other words, Israelis are killed. Palestinians just die. An unfortunate casualty of "war".

 

1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

The military mission of Israel is to kick Hamas out of power. How do you do that without killing their soldiers? Hamas is embedded with civilians, aiming to sacrifice as many innocents as they can. I don't know what you can do about that.

 

The military mission of Israel is to cleanse Gaza of Palestinians, one way or another. @Anastasis has said this before, but not one single motherfucker would flinch if Israel Mossad'd the fuck out of every Hamas leader in Gaza and elsewhere in the world. Hell, I'd fucking cheer. But there's no evidence they're even trying to do that. I can tell you one thing you absolutely do not need to do in order to take out Hamas, and that is destroy Gaza's civilian structure entirely, and make the place unlivable. Funny thing is, though, that's exactly what's happening.

It's great how the goalposts have shifted from "No WAY is Israel deliberately targeting civilians" to "Well they HAVE to deliberately target civilians". But we all knew that was coming.

Do they need to get rid of Hamas? Of course, I wish Hamas would wither and die and never come back, but that's not the fucking goal. Bibi needs Hamas in order to justify retaining power. If there is no enemy to provide that justification, he and his bloodthirsty Likud brethren lose power and he likely enjoys a significant part of the rest of his life in prison. He's now gone too far and has to either back off or finish the job by killing them all or ejecting them all from Gaza somehow.

 

2 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

I feel for the Palestinians. I don't know what else to say. Nothing can be done, innocent lives will be lost. It is a tragedy. 

 

Yeah no, you clearly don't. All the weird, Christofascist bullshit about how scary Muslims are you got run off from the CR thread for posting clearly illustrates that. Let's not dabble in lies, just say what you really feel. "Nothing can be done" is a bullshit sentiment, you just don't want anything to be done.

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Faiq Mabhouh, the head of the Operations Directorate of Hamas' Internal Security has been liquidated by the IDF in his headquarter at the Shifa hospital.

 

This is interesting since we don't want the IDF to target hospitals. That is quite a dilemma.

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1 minute ago, Bevo said:

 

This is interesting since we don't want the IDF to target hospitals. That is quite a dilemma.

I think we'd just like them not to obliterate them. Going in and killing a terrorist while leaving the hospital intact/usable seems like fair game to me. Seems like what happened here.

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