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Martina Navratilova is a Hateful Bigot


Kyle

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Tennis great Martina Navratilova has been criticized after claiming it is a form of "cheating" for transgender women to be allowed to compete in women's sport.

The 18-time Grand Slam winner wrote in The Sunday Times that it was "insane" that "hundreds of athletes who have changed gender by declaration and limited hormone treatment have already achieved honors as women that were beyond their capabilities as men."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/18/tennis/martina-navratilova-trans-women-comments-spt-scli-intl/index.html?utm_source=twCNN&utm_term=image&utm_content=2019-02-18T14%3A50%3A05&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR2Bs4QqJoY36oELqFjh7l71sCdMDvTj6tWXr8kDGE-giodJIRhKUVxlYXE

 

Lots of insanity to unpack ... 

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20 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I think you're just hoping to stir up trouble by ironically supporting the criticism of Navratilova. 

I think the stand that most tolerant people take regarding transgenderism is that the evidence shows that the sexual spectrum is not a neat and tidy division between between black and white. This untidiness is what, in my opinion, mysteriously alarms most intolerant people.

The issue of competition in gender separated sports illuminates a place where the emergent realization of sexual complexity disrupts the belief/desire for a clear line. 

Navratilova raises a valid issue that sprang up with Rene Richards decades ago. I don't know what the answer is. Trans persons who started with a female frame wouldn't have an advantage among elite female athletes. A trans person who started as formidable male athlete would seem to be unfair on the playing field. On the other hand, you don't want to stigmatize someone who was born in the untidy part of the sexual spectrum.

I can only guess that if I, a man who when younger was a powerful football lineman with speed, were to align my identity to become a female, I would feel like I had an unfair advantage over other women in many physical contests. I wouldn't feel that way if I were 5'10 and 160 pounds.

How do you work the rules and laws to accommodate that? I have no idea.

Finally, I want to be clear that my use of untidy in no way implies dirty or wrong.

I don't think you have to go to extremes of ex football lineman before you see an unfair field.  5'10 160 pounds is a pretty typical healthy young man not exactly a female frame that you propose.

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12 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

I don't think you have to go to extremes of ex football lineman before you see an unfair field.  5'10 160 pounds is a pretty typical healthy young man not exactly a female frame that you propose.

I agree. It's what makes the issue difficult. I was just giving the only perspective that I could be reasonably sure of.

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A tall champion with blonde-hair, light-eyed, adams-apple adorned, athlete with prime physical characteristics from the fucking Sudetenland with cunning strategical traits who understands attack patterns and angles even in moments of fatigue against better equipped foes...has strong opinions on the moral validity of opponents with different sexual and biological dynamics.  and this is somehow news?  Pretty sure her people covered this 70 years ago.  

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Your (intentional) obtuseness is impressive.

Trans athletes have an unfair advantage (in the sports where once being a man matters). 

There is no "seems" about it. The men/women (transgender man-to-woman) can be, and often are, physically superior to the women/women. 

Create a separate sub-grouping for the men/women.

 

*** edit to add ***

And it's absolute bullshit, imo, to call Martina "transphobic". 

Edited by Asithappens
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8 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

So you are saying there needs to be a purity  testosterone test? Hypothetically, if there were a benchmark that said "X level of testosterone disqualifies from competing in women's leagues irrespective of identified gender, but if said person could get to Y level (an acceptable amount) that is okay" that would be the logical solution here using your logic?

So basically a transperson who identifies as a woman would have to deplete their body and system of as much testosterone as they can (whether through estrogen or other means) in order to qualify the same as in a weight class wherein a heavier person would have to shed weight to qualify for a lower weight competition?

That makes sense. I think we solved the problem. Next?

There is already testosterone testing with WADA

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7 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

So you are saying there needs to be a purity  testosterone test? Hypothetically, if there were a benchmark that said "X level of testosterone disqualifies from competing in women's leagues irrespective of identified gender, but if said person could get to Y level (an acceptable amount) that is okay for a reasonable expectation of fairness in competition" that would be the logical solution here using your logic?

So basically a transperson who identifies as a woman would have to deplete their body and system of as much testosterone as they can (whether through estrogen or other means) in order to qualify the same as in a weight class wherein a heavier person would have to shed weight to qualify for a lower weight competition?

That makes sense. I think we solved the problem. Next?

Probably too late for an edit, but you might trigger someone by using X and Y as variables. One could interpret your identification of "X" as disqualifying and "Y" as acceptable as hostile. A good alternative is not obvious but I think almost anything might be preferred.

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4 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

So you are saying there needs to be a purity  testosterone test? Hypothetically, if there were a benchmark that said "X level of testosterone disqualifies from competing in women's leagues irrespective of identified gender, but if said person could get to Y level (an acceptable amount) that is okay for a reasonable expectation of fairness in competition" that would be the logical solution here using your logic?

So basically a transperson who identifies as a woman would have to deplete their body and system of as much testosterone as they can (whether through estrogen or other means) in order to qualify the same as in a weight class wherein a heavier person would have to shed weight to qualify for a lower weight competition?

That makes sense. I think we solved the problem. Next?

I would never require a female (sex) to compete with men unless there was some sort of hormone therapy involved. But I think the rest of your post seems reasonable. 

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14 minutes ago, Kyle said:

Probably too late for an edit, but you might trigger someone by using X and Y as variables. One could interpret your identification of "X" as disqualifying and "Y" as acceptable as hostile. A good alternative is not obvious but I think almost anything might be preferred.

🙄

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Your logic is flawed. Ultimately, gender is a set of behaviors. And there is  evidence that gender itself (like many behaviors) has a biological/developmental link (for instance exposure to certain hormones at critical times in development) and is established early in life. While the vast majority of males (sex) are born as men (gender) and thus have the behavioral attributes of men, some do not. The a similar pattern is true of females (sex). There is no harm in recognizing that some males are born as women and that some females are born as men, nor in using that taxonomy in social settings.

But here's the rub....   "Some" is still very, very small number.    The incredibly vast majority of men and women identify as men and women respectively.    That does not mean there is any stigma or something wrong with those that don't.   But my main issue with how prominent the trans issue has become is that BOTH sides try and use it as a wedge.   Martina's entitled to her opinion.   There is science that backs up her claim.    But there is also science that disputes it.   Right now, we're still grappling with how to handle these kinds of things as a society.    There's no need to demonize someone who says something like this unless they are being some kind of asshole.   

It's a question that we're going to have to debate and find some kind of resolution to.    But having it doesn't make one side or the other wrong.  We're not talking about fundamental rights like marriage, adoption, land ownership or voting rights for trans individuals.   We're talking about whether someone who transitions from male to female has an unfair advantage athletically because of their genetic and hormonal makeup.   This is also not about employment even though some might want to go down that road.   It's the  same situation as asking whether there should be different age groups for competition.   We wouldn't let an 18 year old compete with 12 year old middle schoolers, right?

It's not discriminatory to have the conversation.  

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What the hell do you want threads about the best shade of white for a ceiling ?  Why is water wet ?


No I want another fitlump, pics of body plz, Ricky, TXTow, etc saga. While I wait for the next edition of ‘as the off-season turns’, I’m allowed to wryly observe that yet another divisive thread is started in the wild by a poster with dubious reputation in the CR for parroting disproved party lines, trolling and exasperating outrage in the style of Fox News or The Donald or whatever...and the same people following it around stirring the pot.
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2 minutes ago, Homercles said:

 


No I want another fitlump, pics of body plz, Ricky, TXTow, etc saga. While I wait for the next edition of ‘as the off-season turns’, I’m allowed to wryly observe that yet another divisive thread is started in the wild by a poster with dubious reputation in the CR for parroting disproved party lines, trolling and exasperating outrage in the style of Fox News or The Donald or whatever...and the same people following it around stirring the pot.

 

So, they've invented these cool little things called periods.  Either you've forgotten their usage or you're on one maybe ?

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13 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

 

But here's the rub....   "Some" is still very, very small number.    The incredibly vast majority of men and women identify as men and women respectively.    That does not mean there is any stigma or something wrong with those that don't.   But my main issue with how prominent the trans issue has become is that BOTH sides try and use it as a wedge.   Martina's entitled to her opinion.   There is science that backs up her claim.    But there is also science that disputes it.   Right now, we're still grappling with how to handle these kinds of things as a society.    There's no need to demonize someone who says something like this unless they are being some kind of asshole.   

It's a question that we're going to have to debate and find some kind of resolution to.    But having it doesn't make one side or the other wrong.  We're not talking about fundamental rights like marriage, adoption, land ownership or voting rights for trans individuals.   We're talking about whether someone who transitions from male to female has an unfair advantage athletically because of their genetic and hormonal makeup.   This is also not about employment even though some might want to go down that road.   It's the  same situation as asking whether there should be different age groups for competition.   We wouldn't let an 18 year old compete with 12 year old middle schoolers, right?

It's not discriminatory to have the conversation.  

I absolutely believe it is discriminatory to deny one the right to self-identify one's gender. But, as the rest of my post indicated, we can treat gender and sex separately. Some societal rules should be based around gender. Others, like sports, should be based around sex. I dont think recognizing that distinction or discussing how to apply it is discriminatory. I think this is a long way to say I agree with you, but with a caveat. 

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It takes a certain kind of poisonous self righteousness to declare disagreement on a pretty complicated and issue as bigotry. It’s the end of a conversation rather than an open door. When does she smugly tell them that they are confusing sex and gender?

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1 hour ago, Homercles said:

No I want another fitlump, pics of body plz, Ricky, TXTow, etc saga. While I wait for the next edition of ‘as the off-season turns’, I’m allowed to wryly observe that yet another divisive thread is started in the wild by a poster with dubious reputation in the CR for parroting disproved party lines, trolling and exasperating outrage in the style of Fox News or The Donald or whatever...and the same people following it around stirring the pot.

 

While I think the ad homs are boring and predictable, I do appreciate the compliment. I would much rather challenge party lines than parrot them daily. If a poster can only generate enough capacity for a silly ad hom, I recommend her sticking to all the Lulz threads making fun of poor brown people.

This actually is an interesting question. The emotional hyperbole is just an entertaining side show.

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7 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

I think you're just hoping to stir up trouble by ironically supporting the criticism of Navratilova. 

I think the stand that most tolerant people take regarding transgenderism is that the evidence shows that the sexual spectrum is not a neat and tidy division between between black and white. This untidiness is what, in my opinion, mysteriously alarms most intolerant people.

The issue of competition in gender separated sports illuminates a place where the emergent realization of sexual complexity disrupts the belief/desire for a clear line. 

Navratilova raises a valid issue that sprang up with Rene Richards decades ago. I don't know what the answer is. Trans persons who started with a female frame wouldn't have an advantage among elite female athletes. A trans person who started as formidable male athlete would seem to be unfair on the playing field. On the other hand, you don't want to stigmatize someone who was born in the untidy part of the sexual spectrum.

I can only guess that if I, a man who when younger was a powerful football lineman with speed, were to align my identity to become a female, I would feel like I had an unfair advantage over other women in many physical contests. I wouldn't feel that way if I were 5'10 and 160 pounds.

How do you work the rules and laws to accommodate that? I have no idea.

Finally, I want to be clear that my use of untidy in no way implies dirty or wrong.

Racism in a transgender thread. Impressive.

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2 hours ago, futureman said:

come on, roma.  you’re better than this.  if you have or have ever had a dong you should never be beating poor girls in sports.  

fair would be playing against men. 

I don't enough to make such an absolute statement. I also don't deny it absolutely. I remain, as first stated, without a notion of how to handle this. Martina makes a valid point. I don't recall the debate over Rene Richards, but it died down because she was never a top player. 

Why the rush to judgment?

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