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GW Hayduke

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Posts posted by GW Hayduke

  1. 7 minutes ago, C-Man said:

    I think for the companies themselves it's about engagement, which leads to revenue. However, foreign governments and other bad actors have realized the full power these platforms have to further global power goals and are using them accordingly. Zuckerberg didn't start Facebook because he was hoping to influence elections and worldwide power struggles. He started it first to meet girls and then it turned into something that made him a billionaire.

    I agree. But IMO Elon is highly likely a bad actor (and thus twitter will be if it already isn't) and I doubt he would hesitate to use twitter's algorithms to influence elections.  I doubt he would hesitate with providing user info of dissidents to authoritarian states.  He may even have an in-house Cambridge Analytica - make those services available to the highest bidder.

    • Like 1
  2. 51 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

    As good a place as any to drop this, speaking of books:

    spacer.png

     

    I'm about 60% into it.  The book covers Facebook, Twitter,  Youtube, Whatsapp, e.t.c.  It also details the history of Silicon Valley and how many of the issues encountered are repeated due to the insularity and hubris within that group of executives and start ups.  I very highly recommend this book.  Will give you pause before continuing to even venture onto those platforms, for sure.  But will also give plenty of insight into many of the issues we complain about there.  Polarization, easily believing obvious falsehoods, e.t.c.  It is more than just "dubm people congregate."  The algorithims themselves continually drive and influence, and the end game is engagement.  Unfortunately, and this is my opinion at this point, it comes down to money.  So in the long run we'll lose.  
    But it will give you insight into the history, and issues, involving how we as a society have very intentionally been re-wired.

     

    NYT review.

    "The end game is engagement." "It boils down to money."  This is more dangerous than that.  The end game is power.  It boils down to influencing US elections. To controlling who appoints SC justices, who decides whether we oppose Russia's territorial expansions or leave NATO, who decides whether we tax the rich, who decides whether we erode US institutions.  Elon has clearly come out on the side of the GOP.

    It might have started out just with engagement clicks and money but that isn't what is at risk now.  

    • Hook 'Em 2
    • Like 2
  3. 27 minutes ago, Chopper said:

    There's no need to be so impressed by someone's wealth that you'd be willing to look past just about anything they do in order to give them the benefit of the doubt and positive reinforcement. There is no method to the madness of spending $48B (or whatever) on Twitter to turn it into a trump social clone just with paid subs. I am not impressed by Elmo's wealth...it means nothing to me.

    Also, I accused you of whitewashing. Not "billionaires." You've failed to answer a single, simple question and you just keep posting meaningless drivel and purposely misinterpreting my words and questions. You also mistake simple and emotional for direct, plain speaking.

    Try to keep up.  No where have I indicated anything along the lines of being "impressed by someone's wealth that you'd be willing to look past just about anything they do in order to give them the benefit of the doubt and positive reinforcement."  

    Yes. I understand you feel that understanding people use of culture war to mask economic realities in today's political system is whitewashing.  Being aware of how people pull the strings in our society isn't whitewashing.  Why would anyone think otherwise? 

    • Fuck You 1
  4. 8 minutes ago, Chopper said:

    No, maybe try to read slower this time. Perhaps it'll help your comprehension. What would be the logical reason for simultaneously setting all your businesses and wealth on fire by embracing white supremacy, provably false conspiracy theories, and denying science?  If that doesn't speak "delusional, mentally ill person," I don't know what to tell you. However, I do notice you attempt to whitewash those activities as "culture war" so perhaps that's a huge clue about your own lack of reason, or morality or sanity. Or all of 'em.

    edit: Billionaires use misinformation and culture wars and propaganda all the time WITHOUT destroying their reputations and/or businesses. Elmo is not the same as the others. Perhaps you don't grasp that simple point.

    The world doesn’t need to be as simple and emotional as you make it out to be.  Sorting journalism as “both sides” vs whatever or sorting a public figure as “right wing nut job” or whatever, doesn’t add a ton of value. 
    I’m not willing to simply wave my hands and dismiss Elon as a mentally ill person acting irrationally and driven by the whims of dopamine.  You can though.  You can point and laugh at the monkey as he does his dance.  That monkey though currently controls one of the major social media sites with outweighted influence over the news and narratives in our society.  
    Understanding that culture war is nefariously used by billionaires to sort our politics isnt whitewashing. It is kind of basic politics 101 in today’s society.  It is an an acknowledgment that billionaires and others use it to mask economic realities. That shouldn’t be offensive. 

  5. 24 minutes ago, Chopper said:

    What would be the rational explanation for tying one-self to a motley, lying group of conspiracy whack jobs and white supremacists as you tweet your brand new shiny company into oblivion while your other businesses sink along with it?

    Your question is why would a billionaire use misinformation, culture war, and propaganda to influence a segment of the US population?  If there isn't an obvious answer to you, then you probably should start consuming more "both sides" journalism.

    • Fuck You 1
  6. 24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


    I agree, actually. Elon’s actions aren’t traditionally politically motivated.

    Rather, the following two things are the relevant facts: 1) he is a complete narcissist, and 2) one particular type of audience is ideal for feeding such narcissists what they need (pure and uncut adulation and worship). Thus, his pandering to the fringe right (which is no longer fringe).
    He’s not motivated by specific political thought. He’s motivated by getting his knob slobbered, and one specific constituency has demonstrated a willingness to do so. So, he plays to them.

    That is probably a big part of it. There is also someone else out there with apparent narcissistic tendencies, and that person also didn't fit neatly into our politically sorted view when he came to power. 

    It is likely that a type of person and a type of group is simply attracted to narcissistic leaders.  I think it adds value to ponder whether people like Elon are acting purposely in narcissistic ways and whether they are purposely pushing culture war/conspiracy buttons. And if so, what is that purpose? What are they trying to do? What if it isn't just a simple personality order or mental illness?

    I think they are both motivated by power, money, and influence. One person is willing to burn our political institutions, our position in the world, and the constitution for his power and grift.  Elon seems willing to spend $44 billion, convert twitter into a propaganda machine, and put his other companies and reputation at risk.  He was the richest guy in the world.  Why does he need more power? What is he going to do with it?  Maybe if is just mental illness but what if it is not?

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  7. 6 minutes ago, G650 said:

    No, it's not black and white framing. On balance of evidence he has turned into a right wing conspiracy nut job. The NYT article fails spectacularly because the haven't weighted all the available evidence properly.

    Yes, it is clearly black and white framing.  MSNBC and Fox News is probably the proper speed for that debate - that he is either a "right wing conspiracy nut job" or not.  Feel free to put him in that category.  Feel free to sort everything in the US using that framing.  That is fine I suppose.  However, hopefully folks want a little more from their media - a little more from the journalistic outlets they consume - a little more when they seek to understand the world - a little more than just team politics. 

    • Hook 'Em 3
  8. 12 minutes ago, hornian said:

    Yeah, I’m gonna have to disagree. He’s spent the last 6 weeks or so amplifying not just “right leaning” but full blown fringe right wing conspiracy theories. I don’t care what the previous twenty or so years says about his political stances, he’s shown his true colors. 
     

    Let’s use this analogy: one could spend their entire adult life having only consensual sexual relationships, but if they go off the deep end and start drugging people at bars and having non-consensual sex with them after taking them back to their place for for six weeks, that person is a rapist. It doesn’t matter that the person didn’t rape anyone for decades - the 6 week rape spree showed their true colors. And they would forever have to register as a sex offender once convicted. 

    You are disagreeing with the framing of the analysis in the times article.  Your frame is black and white. That is fine. Many are only comfortable with that world view.  For others, the article provides an informative perspective.  That is why I provided the text of the article.  

  9. 25 minutes ago, hornian said:

    Good things the NYT posted a story literally yesterday how it was impossible to know what Elon’s politics are. 
     

    NYT Pitchbot account is more serious these days than the actual NYT. 

    Folks should read the article.  It describes how he socially has been libertarian, against widespread covid restrictions, for addressing climate change, and has now since taking over twitter has been against the left on cultural/conspiracy issues. It draws a distinction between "against the left" vs. "independent" vs. "for the right."  

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/10/business/media/elon-musk-politics-twitter.html

    Quote

    He has called himself an independent and a centrist, yet “economically right of center, maybe.” He has said he was until recently a supporter of only Democrats and voted for President Biden. He’s encouraged people to vote Republican, which he said he did for the first time this year. Last year, he once even declared himself indifferent about politics, saying he’d rather stay out of it altogether.

    Elon Musk, ever a bundle of contradictions and inconsistencies, has long made his politics tricky to pin down. To many of his critics, though, his relentless flurry of tweets in the six weeks since he took over Twitter has exposed his true conservative bent, and intensified their fears that he would make the social network more susceptible to right-wing misinformation.

    And at times, he’s made it hard to argue with that. He has said he’d welcome former President Donald J. Trump back on Twitter; suggested that Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s husband was lying about the attack at their home that left him hospitalized; and reinstated accounts that have trafficked in offensive ethnic stereotypes and bigotry, including for the artist formerly known as Kanye West. (Mr. Musk later suspended Mr. West’s account again after the rapper-entrepreneur posted an image of a swastika.)

    His copious tweeting has generated huge amounts of attention. In a 24-hour period late this week, he tweeted more than 40 times, often with little rhyme or reason. He criticized the Biden administration’s deal with Russia that freed Brittney Griner, the Women’s National Basketball Association star. He asked Elton John to clarify his complaint about misinformation flourishing unchecked on Twitter. At times, Mr. Musk was acting like Twitter’s in-house customer service representative, boasting about new features and improved functions.

    Quote

    And maybe that is a big part of the point — improving the image of his new $44 billion property, which he has said repeatedly is in dire financial straits.

    Yet Mr. Musk, who did not respond to a request for comment, continues to defy easy political categorization. His views have been described as libertarian, though these days his politics seem more contrarian than anything else. He is more clear about what he is against than what he is for.

    It’s true Mr. Musk certainly sounds a lot like a Republican — and, sometimes, a lot like Mr. Trump — with his missives on Twitter against “woke” politics and Covid restrictions, his attacks on “elite” media and his efforts to draw attention to allegations that Hunter Biden profited from his father’s political clout.

    Quote

    But where Mr. Musk has seemed most in line with the G.O.P. of Mr. Trump is in the tenor of his political commentary, which if anything seems more spiritedly anti-left than ideologically pro-right. While he has not been shy about sharing his disdain for many Democrats, his enthusiasm for Republicans has been more muted. He has stressed repeatedly that his problems are with extremists on both ends of the political spectrum.

    “To be clear, my historical party affiliation has been Independent, with an actual voting history of entirely Democrat until this year,” he wrote on Twitter the day before the midterm election. “And I’m open to the idea of voting Democrat again in the future.”

    Quote

    As with many people who describe themselves as politically independent now, the hostility Mr. Musk harbors toward Democrats appears to have drawn him closer to the Republican Party over the last few years. He considers himself as part of the “center 80% of people, who wish to learn, laugh & engage in reasoned debate.”

    He has eagerly encouraged his followers to weigh in with their views on the country’s culture wars and traded tweets with some of the right’s favorite punching bags, like Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York. When she criticized his plan to charge Twitter users $8 a month to have a verified account with one of the social media service’s signature blue check marks — “Lmao at a billionaire earnestly trying to sell people on the idea that ‘free speech’ is actually a $8/mo subscription plan,” she wrote — he dismissed her.

    “Your feedback is appreciated, now pay $8,” Mr. Musk shot back.

    Many of his recent tweets have had that kind of “own the libs” tone, the shorthand on the right for when conservatives think they’ve deftly, often sarcastically, swatted down a liberal. A couple of weeks ago, he posted video on Twitter of a closet full of T-shirts with the slogan “#stay woke” that he said he had found at the social media company’s headquarters. Then he followed up with a tweet that linked to a Justice Department report that undercut one of the central narratives of the mass protests against police brutality: that Michael Brown, a Black teenager killed by the police in Ferguson, Mo., had his hands raised when a white officer shot him.

    Quote

    On occasion, his remarks have raised concerns that he has planted himself firmly among right-wing conspiracy theorists. When he tweeted about the attack on Ms. Pelosi’s husband, he shared the unfounded claim that there was “a tiny possibility there might be more to this story than meets the eye.” He later deleted the tweet, which linked to an article from a fringe website.

    He also said he would support Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida for president in 2024, though his endorsement was not especially resounding. He merely replied “Yes” when someone on Twitter asked him. Mr. DeSantis, a hard-line conservative, would be an odd choice for someone who professes to want centrist governance in Washington.

    Mr. Musk has always claimed his concerns with Twitter’s previous management were about the ability of a small group of the company’s employees whom he described as “far left” to censor content. And over the past week, he has cheered on tweets about internal communications before he took over. The communications, which were given to two writers who have posted their findings on Twitter, calling them the Twitter Files, showed how the company went about deciding what information got suppressed.

    It’s been a mixed bag of revelations. Some showed how Twitter employees made it harder to see tweets from a Stanford University professor who warned about how Covid lockdowns could harm children — a view many public health experts have come around to accept well after the fact. Other documents show how more conventional, conspiracy-theory-embracing conservatives were shut down, like Dan Bongino, the radio host who was one of the biggest amplifiers of lies about the 2020 election.

    Mr. Musk has not professed to have any profound attachment to Republican policies, though, which is consistent with his posture before taking over Twitter.

    He has been highly critical of climate change deniers and said he’s proud of how Tesla forced the rest of the automobile industry to embrace electric vehicles. In 2020, he revealed that he’d spoken to Mr. Trump numerous times about the importance of developing sustainable energy, which the former president dismissed in favor of traditional fossil fuel-based sources. And Mr. Musk quit Mr. Trump’s business councils after the administration pulled out of the Paris climate accord.

    In an interview with The New York Times in 2020, he described his politics as “middle-of-the-road.” “I’m socially very liberal. And then economically right of center, maybe, or center. I don’t know. I’m obviously not a communist.”

    Quote

    His political giving supports that claim. According to the Federal Election Commission, which reports spending in federal but not state races, he has donated just shy of $1 million since 2003 to candidates as conservative as former President George W. Bush and as liberal as Senator Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat. More recently, in 2020, he donated to senators of both political parties — including Chris Coons and Gary Peters, both Democrats, and Susan Collins and John Cornyn, both Republicans.

    Often, it seems, his posts are motivated by personal pique, not political philosophy. He’s criticized the Biden administration, for instance, as “not the friendliest” and for excluding Tesla, the world’s largest electric vehicle maker, from a White House summit on zero-emission vehicles in August 2021. His speculation on the reason for the exclusion: General Motors and the other car companies invited are union companies; Tesla is not. “Seems to be controlled by unions,” he complained at the time.

    Many of the views he has espoused on Twitter over the last two years have become popular in today’s Republican Party but are hardly exclusive to card-carrying Republicans. His criticism of progressives he views as overly censorious and sanctimonious is a sentiment many on the left have expressed. And his public condemnation of strict Covid containment measures in 2020 channeled what would become a growing skepticism of widespread public health restrictions. Though he was more exercised about them than most. “Fascist,” he once declared.

    Often, his tweets can seem to imply he leans in one direction when it’s just as likely that he is trying to court controversy. How to interpret, for instance, a post last week of what he said was an image of his bedside table? It had a revolver on it and a musket in a wooden case decorated with an image of George Washington crossing the Delaware River during the Revolutionary War.

    “Greetings, I’m Musket, Elon Musket,” he wrote.

    A few days later, he sounded pleased with himself as he remarked on the way Twitter had changed since his purchase was completed in October. “So many interesting posts on Twitter these days!”

     

    • Hook 'Em 1
  10. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that a GOP donor provided funds for her “tax the rich” media op.  It is hard for me to see how any serious progressive with any understanding of political messaging would have gone along with this.  This was a right wing propagandist’s wet dream. 

  11. 1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

    Assuming I'm wrong about it and you're just being a dick.  Care to explain?

    Because there would be no way a temp suspension of the filibuster rule would work.  If the Dems suspended it, the GOP would know about it, and they would just suspend it whenever the GOP wanted to pass something.  I think ending or reforming it is needed.  Suspension just doesn’t make much sense

  12. 4 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

    This is another thing that the Dems are so fucking horrible at.  As I understand it, you can suspend the filibuster for specific bills and then reinstate it after the fact.  WHY THE FUCK DON'T THEY DO THAT?

    That is brilliant.  Why don't they just suspend it when the Dems are in control and then right before handing it back to GOP, they can switch it back again. That will totally work!

    • Haha 1
  13. 8 hours ago, McCroskey said:

     you can easily see that they heavily lied about what they were doing for such a long period of time.  

     

     

     

    What exactly do you think they lied about? 

    7 hours ago, McCroskey said:

    Some of those statements and actions are now considered to be deceptive and/or intentionally misleading and that’s something worth exploring further.

    Like what?

    • Fuck Around and Find Out 1
  14. 45 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

    Lol, this whole thing is a massive Russian active measures campaign that worked out perfectly for them. And it worked because the admin, begrudgingly, did the right thing by bringing home an American detained under political pretenses. 
     

    - Doing the swap this way offered fodder to exacerbate divisions in the United States along racial/political fault lines, successfully as seen on this thread. It couldn’t be better, they successfully got a Democratic President to work a deal to free a black lesbian basketball player who kneeled for the national anthem and leave a white middle aged former Marine in jail. Fuck, you can’t WRITE a story better for the GQP. 
     

    - It’s a massive propaganda coup at home because the Russian government is perfectly aware, and celebrating, the fact that they successfully traded someone who did nothing wrong for an actual bad person who did bad things for them. It’s a power move that reinforces Putin’s tarnished image as a master badass. 

    Exactly. Plus this is one the reasons Twitter was worth $44 billion to Elon. Even if Elon hasn’t had enough time to fully weaponize Twitter, this situation appears to be a success for Russia, the GOP, and right wing propagandists 

    • Like 2
  15. 4 hours ago, Goredho said:

     

    Lol, when are you going to start voting from the rooftops, Brisket?  Your 1939 eve of Nazification talk is cheap, señor.  Oh, wait.  I forgot.  You just bloviate ad nauseam about our country’s dire straits while bloviating ad nauseam about our country’s dire straits.

    For all your apocalyptic predictions, stern prose and ALL CAPS toughness, you sure seem content to just observe and comment.  And comment.  And comment.  By your own words, your country is collapsing, the end is nigh, the brown shirts are knocking at your door.  THE TIME IS NOW.

    And yet here you are, posting again.  And again.  And again.  Your time at this time of reckoning isn’t completely wasted, however.  You are good for keeping tensions high amongst this audience.  You are the Tucker Carlson of the Cloak Room, talking of what should be done about conservatives and Republicans using the exact same horrific language far right hate groups use to describe what should be done about blacks, LGBTQ+ members, immigrants and other groups.

    Just spit it out.  America needs a final solution to its Republican problem.  That’s what all your posts are alluding to.

    You have stared off your ledge into the abyss, and boy has it stared back at you.

    Totally agree. The dehumanization of huge swaths of US citizens is a very sad and alarming thing to see by supposed educated people.  This division seems to be exactly what Putin wanted. 

    • Hook 'Em 2
    • Like 3
  16. 8 hours ago, Pancho said:

     

    He know’s he’s mentally ill because he’s admitted it. He has bipolar disorder. Everyone knows this. So no, this isn’t an intentional act. You suggesting such means you’re making excuses. 

    Describing and understanding the situation isn't making excuses.  Folks shouldn't conflate the two.  But you should probably note that mental illness and insanity are actual legal defenses used in our legal system sometimes and are much more of an "excuse" (he is just off his meds!) than noting aspects that match an intentional performance. I'm pointing toward accountability in terms of likelihood of actual deliberation on how to amplify the antiemetic message.  

    It is easy to accept "he is just off his meds" and then ignore what he is doing and how it fits with what else is going on in the world.

    Accepting intention and deliberation leads me to consider why he is doing this now. I imagine Kanye is mostly just a pawn but it I'm not convinced it is a coincidence that his episode is occurring at the same time as Trump's announcement to run again and Elon taking over twitter. It is very possible his messages and methods are resonating on the darker side of the right and with some in the black community.  Antisemitism was a huge part of the America First movement in the 40s, and when combined with Christian nationalism (the Christian Front) and propaganda (Father Coughlin, senators Lundeen, Nye, etc.).  I think antisemitism has potential to again be a powerful current within today's GOP base.  

    A further step into the rabbit hole could also point out a more national intention to try and split groups that have traditionally been aligned politically in the US - blacks and jews. This could allow the right to carve off a slice.  We know the right has been somewhat successful at carving off a piece of the hispanic vote to a certain extent, and I believe the potential exists that this may be part of an attempt to do the same with the black vote.

  17. 47 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

    Yeah, you don’t really bounce back from “I really like Hitler, he did some good stuff” with “it was all ACTING.” 
     

    I don’t know what you mean. Him being an antisemite doesn’t mean he isn’t performing. Him performing for clicks and attention isn’t an excuse for promoting antisemitism.  You don’t put on a mask, hold a net, and go on Alex Jones if you aren’t performing.  Maybe he is just insane, but I doubt it.  I think his act is intentional.

  18. I’m leaning towards this being a performance. He is an entertainer. He knows how to manipulate an audience and put on a show. Similar to this.
     

     

  19. 1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

    Understand the perspective. And @Brisketexan 's follow up. But I also understand when the people leave evil wins. Without going into the other countries and their situation lets focus on Russia. How many men left? That is one hell of a protest movement. Meanwhile they are now sitting in other countries, few are going to get jobs, and that creates new issues for the host nation. Georgia needs to handle how many Russians? 

    In every country I have worked/lived, most in some sort of conflict, this is something seen. I will mention Venezuela. The refugees are creating issues in Colombia and Ecuador, who then ask us to kick more cash to them. And wait for the next exodus from Haiti. Its coming. 

    TL:DNR- Fuckers run and become another countries problem. 

    Rather than another country’s problem, immigrants are overwhelmingly positive members of society as workers, tax payers, and consumers.  More immigrants = higher population = higher GDP = greater economic standing in the world.  We should all be actively trying to drain the Russian population, while increasing our own and that our allies.  

    • Hook 'Em 2
  20. 12 hours ago, Tuco said:

    A bit tangent to Bannon is Guo Wengu, the billionaire Chinese dissident/criminal/conman. Bannon was trying to set-up a media company with him and was on his yacht when arrested, the first time. I don’t have the electronic copy to link, but I will type in one passage.


    Peering into the camera, Guo announced the establishment of a shadow government, which he called the New Federal State of China. In Mandarin, he made an impassioned call to arms…
    Guo built toward a climactic finish, chanting a slogan - “Take Down the CCP!” In Chinese. After the ninth repetition, he switched to English, and Bannon joined in. Guo was in a celebratory mood. He kissed Bannon on the cheek, and gazing up at him, said, “Love You.”
    “Thank you,” Bannon said. “Are we still on live?” To close out the ceremony, they presented a statement of principles, which Guo signed in his own blood. (Bannon skipped that part.)

    Guo is an intriguing figure and is mixed up in all kinds of wild things.  Fresh Air did a solid episode on him.

    https://www.npr.org/2022/10/29/1131916203/jemele-hill-evan-osnos-guo-wengui-alexandra-horowitz

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