2018 Poker run good or die

[TXSooner518 2,419]

If he's betting 80% pot on the river no matter what he has, then shit yes, we can easily call river. We beat most of his range. You can't fold the top of your range to a thinking, aggressive player who knows you are capped at one pair. Those players print money because players turn their hands faceup and announce I CANNOT CALL OFF WITH WHAT I HAVE.

We can call turn and evaluate river. I would be planning on calling most blanks. A, Q, 8, 7 would be the cards I like least. We can also lead river small and fold to a raise. Players are much more likely to bluff-bet when checked to than to bluff-raise when led into.

Think about it this way:  say a 3 rivers, so the board is J84J3. He bets $500 into $510. Why?  What hands, if any, does he think we will fold to that bet?  Do we have any of those hands in our range?  What hands, if any, does he think will call that bet?  Do we have any of those hands in our range?

I would honestly be more worried facing a river $180 bet than a river $500 bet based on that analysis.

[Lurch 5,916]

And did you mean J8 rather than A8?  That would make a bit more sense also. I think he basically should never show up with J4.

Right. Agree on J4

[Lurch 5,916]

Honestly, the complexity of this is a big part of why I folded. I can make good money with a lot less stress/analysis in other hands.

 

That said, really a great hand to learn from so that next time I’m better prepared. I just need a pre-established approach.

 

So, what is it?

 

Rather than thinking “welp, it’s possible he has a J and I’m fucked” I should have continued with “but it’s also he has AQ, AT, A8, A4, TT, 99... so let’s see another street, planning to check call 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, J , shove K and check fold the rest”

 

[Dropout 355]

This is nice.

IMO it is check turn as you did and call turn. Check river call river on anything other than K.

What bothers me most is the amount of callers preflop.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Dropout

[Dropout 355]

Appreciate your insight Sooner. As a youngin barely getting into poker circa 2004 pretty sure I remember you final tabling PS tourneys here and there.

[Lurch 5,916]

This is nice.
IMO it is check turn as you did and call turn. Check river call river on anything other than K.
What bothers me most is the amount of callers preflop.

I often start in the $15-20 range for preflop raises, with a bit more if there are more limpers. However, if that gets more than 3 callers I move it up to $20-25, then $25-30 and occasionally $30-35 (which is what the game called for last night) until I can find a number that gets us down to 1-2 callers. I probably could have even gone to $50 the way some of the guys were playing. A good game!

[Lurch 5,916]

WPT is here this weekend and one of my favorite Twitter follows, Jamie Kerstetter, is here playing a ladies cash game. Pretty cool to watch as I waited for a seat. They’re pretty damn aggro!

[Lurch 5,916]

The downside is I’m betting a lot of these new faces tonight aren’t so new to poker...

[Dropout 355]

31 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

I often start in the $15-20 range for preflop raises, with a bit more if there are more limpers. However, if that gets more than 3 callers I move it up to $20-25, then $25-30 and occasionally $30-35 (which is what the game called for last night) until I can find a number that gets us down to 1-2 callers. I probably could have even gone to $50 the way some of the guys were playing. A good game!

 

I’d agree with this approach. If you’re afraid they’ll shut down close to $50... limp hope for raise and reraise preflop in early position is definitely in the playbook.

[bigup2dahorns 3,340]

I often start in the $15-20 range for preflop raises, with a bit more if there are more limpers. However, if that gets more than 3 callers I move it up to $20-25, then $25-30 and occasionally $30-35 (which is what the game called for last night) until I can find a number that gets us down to 1-2 callers. I probably could have even gone to $50 the way some of the guys were playing. A good game!

This is what my friend and I often discuss. It’s amazing how different tables can play when it comes to this part of the game, especially at the $1/2 level.

[Lurch 5,916]

This is what my friend and I often discuss. It’s amazing how different tables can play when it comes to this part of the game, especially at the $1/2 level.

It seems like the $2/5 guys are pretty sticky to their bet size, but the $2/2 guys will follow my lead and eventually the whole table is making larger bets pre. It’s funny because some of them are sitting there with a $60 stack and opening at $12 or $15!

[bigup2dahorns 3,340]

Yep I have seen that as well at 1/2 and it always cracks me up. I agree that in my experience the typical 2/5 game has a little less variance on that pre-flop action and 5/10 seems to be all over the map. Not sure what that says about the different games but to me I feel like the most grinders and serious-minded players are at 2/5.

[Lurch 5,916]

That’s the case here. $2/2 is the rec game which can be good for felting drunks and short stacks, but is otherwise pretty lame. $2/5 here is usually 4-5 tables at night with maybe 30 regs and is mostly solid play but the occasional drunk or richer guy just wanting to splash around. $5/10 game pretty much only goes if they can convince a whale to join them. They otherwise either pick off us in $2/5 or play PLO.

[Lurch 5,916]

Sitting w $1350
 
HJ limps and I make it $30 in CO w KsKc. SB makes it $90. I call. He and I have traded some big pots already and he could be 99+, AQ+ here. $190 pot.
 
Qd Jh 8d. He makes it $125.
 
I’m ahead of 99, TT, AQ, AK. I’m fucked to JJ, QQ, AA. I decide to test the waters, thinking I might get him to push w AQ or AKdd, so I raise to $325.
 
He shoves and has me covered.
 
Fuck?

[deech 2,222]

4 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Sitting w $1350
 
HJ limps and I make it $30 in CO w KsKc. SB makes it $90. I call. He and I have traded some big pots already and he could be 99+, AQ+ here. $190 pot.
 
Qd Jh 8d. He makes it $125.
 
I’m ahead of 99, TT, AQ, AK. I’m fucked to JJ, QQ, AA. I decide to test the waters, thinking I might get him to push w AQ or AKdd, so I raise to $325.
 
He shoves and has me covered.
 
Fuck?

I don't think his range is as small as you think it is based on his three bet.  Especially if he is a good player mixing in variance to their three bet range.  You also mention that you are trading some big pots with him so it's entirely possible he's playing back at you and hoping for another big pot.

I also am not a fan of your raise on the turn.  Generally speaking, you ask him to shove on you  with his range and you get exactly what you asked for.

You have position here.  Use it.  IMHO.  I think I fold to the jam unless I really think he is just tilting and trying to outplay me from the big pots we've played.

[Lurch 5,916]

Such a draw heavy flop, I pretty much have to raise, no?

[TXSooner518 2,419]

17 hours ago, Lurch said:

Honestly, the complexity of this is a big part of why I folded. I can make good money with a lot less stress/analysis in other hands.

That said, really a great hand to learn from so that next time I’m better prepared. I just need a pre-established approach.

So, what is it?

Rather than thinking “welp, it’s possible he has a J and I’m fucked” I should have continued with “but it’s also he has AQ, AT, A8, A4, TT, 99... so let’s see another street, planning to check call 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, J , shove K and check fold the rest”

 

I think this hand wasn't necessarily that complex, but you let yourself get psyched out by who your opponent is. You wouldn't have folded to some random jabroni here, even though a random jabroni is much more likely to have a J than a very good, thinking, tourney-based player is. We have his range crushed, so we must continue. Check-calling keeps his range wide, while making him think he has fold equity, which he is likely to try to use.

16 hours ago, Dropout said:

Appreciate your insight Sooner. As a youngin barely getting into poker circa 2004 pretty sure I remember you final tabling PS tourneys here and there.

Thanks!  Miss those PokerStars days!

15 hours ago, Lurch said:

WPT is here this weekend and one of my favorite Twitter follows, Jamie Kerstetter, is here playing a ladies cash game. Pretty cool to watch as I waited for a seat. They’re pretty damn aggro!

Love me some Jamie Kerstetter. Played with her at Aria, she was great to have at the table. There are certainly hotter girls in poker, but if I could date any poker chick, it would be Jamie.

11 hours ago, Lurch said:

Sitting w $1350
 
HJ limps and I make it $30 in CO w KsKc. SB makes it $90. I call. He and I have traded some big pots already and he could be 99+, AQ+ here. $190 pot.
 
Qd Jh 8d. He makes it $125.
 
I’m ahead of 99, TT, AQ, AK. I’m fucked to JJ, QQ, AA. I decide to test the waters, thinking I might get him to push w AQ or AKdd, so I raise to $325.
 
He shoves and has me covered.
 
Fuck?

 

10 hours ago, Lurch said:

Such a draw heavy flop, I pretty much have to raise, no?

Why didn't we 4b pre? The fact that it is CO vs SB, and that we have dynamic, keeps our ranges wide and lets us get money in while we have way the best of it. Trapping while we are 250 BB deep is pretty perilous, since if we get that many blinds in postflop with one pair, we don't figure to be in good shape often.

I disagree that we need to raise the flop, and agree that we should use our position and just call. What is the purpose of raising the flop? We don't have a big equity advantage on this flop. Against a reasonably standard 3b range, we have 63% on this flop. That's OK, but when we raise, he folds all the junk out, and proceeds with the top of his range, and we have one pair, and lots of money behind.

We need roughly 35% equity to call the jam. I don't think he is jamming AQo here, unless he is just a crazy person. Would he be jamming as a bluff? Can he possibly think you are calling off 200+ bigs with less than top pair?

I think his jam range is QQ, JJ, 88, T9s, QJs, AdKd, AdJd, AdTd.  We have 18% equity against that. Add AQ and we get to 42%, but I don't think he is just cramming 250 BB with AQ unless he has the Ad. If he is only jamming AQ with Ad, we have 32%. We just have to muck unless he is craaaazyyyy spewing here, and if we think he is this crazy and spewy, flatting KK is disastrous, we should 4b and let him spew.

[po elvis 2,070]

10 hours ago, deech said:

I don't think his range is as small as you think it is based on his three bet.  Especially if he is a good player mixing in variance to their three bet range.  You also mention that you are trading some big pots with him so it's entirely possible he's playing back at you and hoping for another big pot.

I think because he was in the small blind his 3-bet range was probably pretty small. i don't like the preflop call with the Kings.

[TXSooner518 2,419]

6 minutes ago, po elvis said:

I think because he was in the small blind his 3-bet range was probably pretty small. i don't like the preflop call with the Kings.

I don't think it is terribly small (TWSS). Lurch was ISO'ing a limper from late position, and he ISOs limpers often (like he should). So Lurch's range was pretty wide, so SB can 3b fairly wide also. 

[po elvis 2,070]

12 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

I don't think it is terribly small (TWSS). Lurch was ISO'ing a limper from late position, and he ISOs limpers often (like he should). So Lurch's range was pretty wide, so SB can 3b fairly wide also. 

yeah I missed the limper. I was also thinking that Lurch seems to have a pretty tight rep at the table.

[Lurch 5,916]

yeah I missed the limper. I was also thinking that Lurch seems to have a pretty tight rep at the table.

I did, but that’s changed last few nights. I’ve loosened up in HJ, CO, and BTN.

[Lurch 5,916]

So, yeah, I really fucked that hand up.

I didn’t 4bet pre because HJ limper folded and I didn’t consider stack sizes. Almost always at $2/5 a 4bet is a shove because we so often one of us just has $4-500 in front of us. I didn’t think about making it $300 (?), but instead just thought “call or shove?” and decided he’d only call a shove w AA... so let’s get more on the flop.

As mentioned previously I wanted him to shove on my flop raise...until he did. I tanked a long time and made the poor decision to call. QQ.

FWIW, board ran out 6sQc. I might have been sucked in on the river thinking he’d missed draws and Q was less likely.

Addl kick in the balls that we were in a high hand period where whole table gets a $570 satellite ticket, but QQQQA was already on the board.

During that hour I lost $1300 on that hand but somehow won $1,050 in others so it was only a net -$250 for the hour! Another good game

[TXSooner518 2,419]

We are in position, so don't necessarily have to go as big as $300.  I would go $225-250.  The bigger we 4b, the more we are announcing that we won't fold if he 5b, but we want him to think he can make us fold.

On this board if he goes bet-bet-jam, I think we prob have to fold river. We are announcing our range is strong to call twice, and he would be announcing he DGAF. I would think AQ and JJ his most likely hands at that point.

The high hand promo is that every person at the table gets an entry into a $570 satellite????  So they give away $5700 basically?

[Lurch 5,916]

We are in position, so don't necessarily have to go as big as $300.  I would go $225-250.  The bigger we 4b, the more we are announcing that we won't fold if he 5b, but we want him to think he can make us fold.
On this board if he goes bet-bet-jam, I think we prob have to fold river. We are announcing our range is strong to call twice, and he would be announcing he DGAF. I would think AQ and JJ his most likely hands at that point.
The high hand promo is that every person at the table gets an entry into a $570 satellite????  So they give away $5700 basically?

Correct. Once an hour for two hours. 3 nights in a row, I believe.

[TXSooner518 2,419]

1 hour ago, Lurch said:

 

Correct. Once an hour for two hours. 3 nights in a row, I believe.

 

Wow!  How many tables are running?

[Dropout 355]

3 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

Thanks!  Miss those PokerStars days!

What I would give for old school PS...

14 hours ago, Lurch said:

Sitting w $1350
 
HJ limps and I make it $30 in CO w KsKc. SB makes it $90. I call. He and I have traded some big pots already and he could be 99+, AQ+ here. $190 pot.
 
Qd Jh 8d. He makes it $125.
 
I’m ahead of 99, TT, AQ, AK. I’m fucked to JJ, QQ, AA. I decide to test the waters, thinking I might get him to push w AQ or AKdd, so I raise to $325.
 
He shoves and has me covered.
 
Fuck?

Agree with have to reraise pre. You either need to win the hand now w a 4bet or get it all in w him pre. Given the history I don’t think you only get called/re raised w AA. 

The end result is the same. You 4bet pre he prob 5bets/shoves w QQ run the cards. So hand like this where you called off at the end and ended up being wrong was no different than being right. Prefer to learn on those run better type hands.

[Lurch 5,916]

2 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

Wow!  How many tables are running?

5 $2/5, 7-8 $2/2 and maybe 5-6 $2/4 limit (which has an advantage in HH)

[Lurch 5,916]

1 hour ago, Dropout said:

What I would give for old school PS...

Agree with have to reraise pre. You either need to win the hand now w a 4bet or get it all in w him pre. Given the history I don’t think you only get called/re raised w AA. 

The end result is the same. You 4bet pre he prob 5bets/shoves w QQ run the cards. So hand like this where you called off at the end and ended up being wrong was no different than being right. Prefer to learn on those run better type hands.

He and I discussed it for a while and he was fairly sure he was folding to a $300ish 4bet pre primarily because it almost never occurs in $2/5 unless its AA, KK or AKs

Edited October 19, 2018 by Lurch

[TXSooner518 2,419]

Then we should be 4betting the shit out of a lot of hands, ha.  I call his bluff on him folding to $225-250 with QQ there.  Going 300 or more definitely does signal certain things about our hand.

[Lurch 5,916]

Let's build some ranges!

I figure the most basic range is our opening range from HJ/CO/BTN.

Roughly 40% of hands.  Same bet sizing regardless of hand (but we are choosing a size that's getting us 1-2 callers per discussion earlier)

Edited October 19, 2018 by Lurch

[Dropout 355]

I’m prob more LAG than most and bumping from CO with limp in HJ with a wide range. Love the image it creates. If you’ve played money hands w this guy no way he’s folding QQ from the SB. If he is he’s leaking money IMO.

IMO range for this scenario... raising limp HJ prob AA-99, AK/AQs, AKo. Semi bluff raising AQo-KJo. I have no problem folding these hands if reraised. Then it gets tricky for me. I’m limp calling the rest of that range above minus the low offsuit As and gapped offsuits. Maybe limp the 109o type hands if it’s a loose table. I think a call to the HJ limp with the lower suited range above is fine just hard to call a raise from B-BB. Sometimes get priced in. Would call a raise from B-BB with suited connectors and the lower pairs set mining. Maybe suited one gappers again depending on money flow.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Dropout

[Dropout 355]

1 hour ago, Lurch said:

He and I discussed it for a while and he was fairly sure he was folding to a $300ish 4bet pre primarily because it almost never occurs in $2/5 unless its AA, KK or AKs

And if he folds he folds. This is good. We keep building the stack. Narrow villains range with your 4 bet. This is a good thing. Him folding pre is a good thing.

[TXSooner518 2,419]

14 minutes ago, Dropout said:

IMO range for this scenario... raising limp HJ prob AA-99, AK/AQs, AKo. Semi bluff raising AQo-KJo. 

Are you saying this is what you are raising from the CO when the HJ limps?  If so that's wayyyyy too tight.  We are raising AQ for pure value there, not as a semi-bluff.

Assuming standard doofus limps HJ, I would raise to iso from the CO with something like A5s+, A9o+, KTs+, KJ+, T9s, 66+.  That range figures to be solidly ahead of a doofus limping range.  I would limp behind smaller pairs, suited aces, suited connectors, and unsuited connectors like T9, unless a player behind was super agg and likely to pound limpers. If that's the case, toss some premiums into our limp range.

I like Lurch's range for cash games, with slightly tighter in HJ.  For tourneys, slightly tighter in HJ, looser on BTN, since winning the blinds is so much more important in tourneys. Unless the blinds are just droolers, no need to button raise junk in cash, because stealing blinds is next to useless.

[Dropout 355]

21 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

Are you saying this is what you are raising from the CO when the HJ limps?  If so that's wayyyyy too tight.  We are raising AQ for pure value there, not as a semi-bluff.

Assuming standard doofus limps HJ, I would raise to iso from the CO with something like A5s+, A9o+, KTs+, KJ+, T9s, 66+.  That range figures to be solidly ahead of a doofus limping range.  I would limp behind smaller pairs, suited aces, suited connectors, and unsuited connectors like T9, unless a player behind was super agg and likely to pound limpers. If that's the case, toss some premiums into our limp range.

I like Lurch's range for cash games, with slightly tighter in HJ.  For tourneys, slightly tighter in HJ, looser on BTN, since winning the blinds is so much more important in tourneys. Unless the blinds are just droolers, no need to button raise junk in cash, because stealing blinds is next to useless.

I see your point w AQ as value from there. You lost me saying you’d reraise A5s+ but then limp suited aces. Help me w the A9o-AJo and KJo types. If I bump is it easy fold to SB reraise? If it folds back around to HJ who calls and auto checks what do you do with air on flop? What do you do with paired A with your A9o-AJo hands? What do you do with a paired K on your KJo hands? I’m assuming cbet all that? I like the limp w K10s type hands and suited connectors due to possibility of getting raised from B-BB. I am taking a flop to any reasonable raise. I like flops especially if I steal position. I understand including down to 66 raise. What do you do with three over cards on a flop? Cbet? 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Dropout
Just clarifying this is for deep enough stacked cash

[TXSooner518 2,419]

3 minutes ago, Dropout said:

I see your point w AQ as value from there. You lost me saying you’d reraise A5s+ but then limp suited aces. Help me w the A9o-AJo and KJo types. If I bump is it easy fold to SB reraise? If it folds back around to HJ who calls and auto checks what do you do with air on flop? What do you do with paired A with your A9o-AJo hands? What do you do with a paired K on your KJo hands? I’m assuming cbet all that? I like the limp w K10s type hands and suited connectors due to possibility of getting raised from B-BB. I am taking a flop to any reasonable raise. I like flops especially if I steal position. I understand including down to 66 raise. What do you do with three over cards on a flop? Cbet? 

I was saying I would limp the smaller suited aces.  In fact, I may raise A2-A5s and limp A6-A8s since the wheel aces flop a bit better. Yeah a decent amount of these hands we would fold to a reraise from SB. That means if we have a hyper agg player behind, we have to adjust our strategy.  But generally, if a good player 3b from SB, we can call the hands that flop the best (we have position which is huge), fold hands like KJo or ATo that don't flop great and may be dominated, and 4bet our monsters and a few bluffs (more bluffs if SB will fold queens ha). I would probably use the wheel suited aces and smaller suited pairs for bluff 4bet hands (not 4betting always, determining frequency based on opponent tendencies and stack depth).  If instead of the SB 3b, it is the BTN that 3b, we would call less, fold more, and 4b less (removing some hands from both our 4b value and 4b bluff ranges, making some hands that were 4b for value into calls, and some that were calls into 4b for bluff). We do this because we won't have position post-flop.

Assuming we are in the CO $700 deep playing 2/5, with a standard loose-passive fool limping in the HJ.

He limps, we go $30 with ATo, folds to him, he calls. If we flop an ace, I will usually bet flop, check turn or check behind flop, bet turn. With a middling ace, we can't expect to go bet-bet-bet with one pair for value. If we have a very stationy read, sure. I'm more inclined to bet flop, check turn on wetter boards. If we miss, I will bet boards that he is less likely to have something to continue on, and check wetter boards that we miss, and check boards where we hate to get check/raised. For example, I would bet 832 flops, check J94 two tone (he's reasonably likely to have hit), check QJ5 (he's reasonably likely to hit, we have 4 outs to the nuts so if we get c/r we hate folding).

Same concept he limps, we go $30 with 66, folds to him, he calls. When determining whether to bet, a bet should accomplish one of two things:  he calls with worse or he folds better.  If we cbet something like Q98, he's calling a ton, and not folding much we beat (77 exactly maybe).  So definitely checking that board.  On the flip side, betting 522, we can get called by worse, and we can deny him equity when he folds something like T8 that he would call if he knew our hand.

[Dropout 355]

Couple hands that I need to get off my chest from last live tourney think $450-500 deepstack River Series Winstar. Surprised at how bad the play is. Like 1/3 of the field fish.

First comes from a friend I was with. Don’t know the exact positions but the story goes something like this. Early levels of deep stack tourney. He standard raises 2.5x-3x from MP w 1010. Believe villain had postion, let’s say B. He 3bets back to friend who makes the call. Flop comes x 10 K rainbow. Friend leads out prob half the pot and gets shoved on for probably something like 200bb+. Crazy I know. Friend folded this hand saying there’s no way he could call that so deep early in the tourney. Started going on about pot odds and such. I looked at him like he was an idiot. This is a snap call from me pot odds be damned. What’s the play? 

Hand I ended up busting on prob 30 min from bagging chips making day two and at least some money. Was struggling whole tourney but hanging around and finally start the run good. Build stack to prob 200kish blinds something like 2.5k/5k. Folds around to me in either HJ or CO with T9d and I bump 2.5x to 12.5k. Probably the best villain at the table in BB calls and is the only one who can stack me. Barely. Flop comes x 7d Kd. Villain checks in BB. I cbet something like 20-25k. Villain calls. Turn something like 5d. Think villain leads out 45kish. No way I’m personally folding I tank for a bit for show then shove. He calls and flips JQd. That hurt. Anything I can do different here?

 

[TXSooner518 2,419]

Snap snap snap calling the TTT.  Obv since I snapcalled 150 BB with 99 on J97 in the River Main.  But we all know how that one turned out.

Don't see any other way on your hand either. Just not deep enough to fold a 2 card flush unless opponent is biggest nit ever. 

Or to quote the great CBT:  "run better imo"

[Dropout 355]

Villain showed AK on flopped set of 10s. Again let my friend kindly know he’s an idiot and he still goes on he can’t call there. Ok guy. 2nd break he has way more chips than me and I’m still trying to get through to him or understand wtf he was doing. May have tilted him he didn’t last much longer.

[deech 2,222]

2 hours ago, Dropout said:

Couple hands that I need to get off my chest from last live tourney think $450-500 deepstack River Series Winstar. Surprised at how bad the play is. Like 1/3 of the field fish.

First comes from a friend I was with. Don’t know the exact positions but the story goes something like this. Early levels of deep stack tourney. He standard raises 2.5x-3x from MP w 1010. Believe villain had postion, let’s say B. He 3bets back to friend who makes the call. Flop comes x 10 K rainbow. Friend leads out prob half the pot and gets shoved on for probably something like 200bb+. Crazy I know. Friend folded this hand saying there’s no way he could call that so deep early in the tourney. Started going on about pot odds and such. I looked at him like he was an idiot. This is a snap call from me pot odds be damned. What’s the play? 

Hand I ended up busting on prob 30 min from bagging chips making day two and at least some money. Was struggling whole tourney but hanging around and finally start the run good. Build stack to prob 200kish blinds something like 2.5k/5k. Folds around to me in either HJ or CO with T9d and I bump 2.5x to 12.5k. Probably the best villain at the table in BB calls and is the only one who can stack me. Barely. Flop comes x 7d Kd. Villain checks in BB. I cbet something like 20-25k. Villain calls. Turn something like 5d. Think villain leads out 45kish. No way I’m personally folding I tank for a bit for show then shove. He calls and flips JQd. That hurt. Anything I can do different here?

 

There isn't a decision with the first one and you got coolered with the second.  It's poker.

[Lurch 5,916]

Guys here just successfully got a $10/25 NLH going. I’ve never seen that here. Lots of WPT money in the house!

[Lurch 5,916]

$2k min. If I run this $500 buyin up to $2500 (~1 in 20 sessions) I’ll take a shot!

[bigup2dahorns 3,340]

Yeah I think that’s fairly standard for $10/20 or so where it’s no cap and about 2k min buy-in. Awhile back when I was a more frequent Vegas visitor my goal was to take a shot at that game at Bellagio but never progressed past $5/10.

[bigup2dahorns 3,340]

Oct 20, SA Express News:

The arrival of public card rooms in San Antonio was a life-changing event for Alfredo Ramón, a poker fanatic known as “La Bumba.”

After decades of playing in underground games — where the house took a cut and robbery was a concern — or driving long distances to play legally in casinos, Ramón now can indulge his passion for Texas Hold’em in the card rooms.

“Every time I turn around now, there’s a poker venue. The other day, I went to three in one day. I used to have to drive to Kickapoo (in Eagle Pass) or Oklahoma or Louisiana,” said Ramón, 62, a disabled Army veteran.

Rounders, one of his favorites, sits next to an Italian restaurant in a strip mall off Huebner Road. A sign at the entrance announces: “Rounders is a members only private card club. Members only beyond this point.”

“Here, they are very friendly. There’s hardly ever an argument. It’s very clean and I love the ambiance,” noted Ramón, who is given to shouting, “Bumba!” when he wins a good hand.

Card clubs began popping up in San Antonio two years ago, and there now are about a dozen, some claiming thousands of members.

In the next month, at least two clubs will hold tournaments with six-figure payouts.

But the future of the card rooms is unclear: Only a handful are making money, and the legality of their business model — based on membership and usage fees — is in dispute.

In Texas, any card game where the house takes a cut from the pot, called the rake, is illegal.

Authorities have not tried to shut down the San Antonio clubs, but their operators know that could change. Elsewhere in the state, clubs have been raided and closed, with charges filed against their operators.

“What if someone in Austin tries to close us up, or the new DA comes in and wants to make a statement?” asked Eric Thomas, 36, a majority owner of Rounders. “We know there will be a legal fight at some point.”

The clubs are trying to navigate the legal and political risks while building a client base and cultivating a wholesome public image.

On a recent Sunday afternoon, Rounders, with its high ceilings, soft rock music and 15 televisions showing NFL games — audio off — felt like a sports bar for teetotalers. House rules: No cussing, no fussing, no smoking and no drinking.

About 70 serious players, jammed into oblong tables under security cameras, were duking it out in an all-day $30,000 Texas Hold’em tournament.

The focused looks and the nervous stacking and restacking of chips were the only tells.

“I got the poker bug real bad when I was 21 years old. I’ve been playing since I was 7, playing with my allowance from my grandmother. My dad would take it from me,” Harry Pavasko, 32, said during the first break.

Key to the clubs’ claim to legality is that instead of charging a rake, they collect membership and usage fees. Owners also are quick to argue that they fill a public recreational need.

“People have been playing poker for 100 years. Where would you rather have them play: In a safe place where we pay taxes, or in illegal games where you don’t know who you are playing with and where they are taking large rakes from the pot?” Thomas asked.

“Poker is as Texan as the Alamo and the ‘Come and Take it Flag.’ I don’t think anyone in their right mind would tell you poker is harmful,” he added.

Rounders, he said, has more than 3,000 members who pay a $20 annual fee plus usage fees. About 40 or 50 members play almost every day. Later this month, the club will host a $100,000 Texas Hold’em tournament.

Silvia Sanchez, a regular player, said: “I feel empowered, to tell the truth. They don’t expect women to play very aggressively. They underestimate women.”

A few miles away, at the River City Card Room on Babcock Road, the action amps up in the wee hours.

“At 4 a.m., we’ve got the very heart of our clientele,” said Brock Lewis, 40, a part owner.

Lewis, who used to deal and run “home games,” said the competition for players in San Antonio is “brutal,” and many clubs fail quickly.

“Poker players are very finicky,” he said. “If you are not already a ‘degenerate poker player’ who goes out there and does heavy promotion, forget it. You’re not getting new members.”

Waiting on the law

The first card club in Texas opened in Austin in 2015, and there now are about 40 around the state, with concentrations in San Antonio, Houston and Austin.

In April, a task force of 20 officers raided the Wilson County Social Club in Floresville, arresting four men who ran the place, and citing 11 poker players.

“We think this is gambling. It’s still illegal, no matter how you characterize it,” Wilson County Attorney Tom Caldwell said.

In Houston, where about a dozen clubs operate, City Councilman Greg Travis likewise believes they’re illegal.

“What I’ve got a problem with, is we’ve got an attorney general who is not willing to do anything about it. And we’ve got a district attorney who won’t prosecute because the attorney general hasn’t come out with his opinion,” he said.

A formal request to Attorney General Ken Paxton for an opinion on the cardrooms’ legality stalled after a civil suit arose between two clubs. Paxton has said he will rule, once the litigation is resolved, if anyone still wants an opinion.

In Bexar County, District Attorney Nico LaHood, himself a poker player, is awaiting that opinion.

“We’re taking a wait-and-see approach. We’ve notified police of our opinion. We haven’t told them to take action or not to,” he said.

Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff long has been a regular player in local charity events, tournaments in Las Vegas and private gatherings of friends.

On an office shelf is a mock trophy from a celebrity outing, showing a seven-card royal flush.

“I knocked Eva Longoria out of the tournament, so she gave me this trophy,” he said with a smile.

Wolff grew up playing draw and stud poker, since eclipsed by Texas Hold’em and Omaha, but said the fundamentals remain the same.

“You’ve got to be able to read the other guy, and understand his long-term plays. These are the same things you need in a political race or in making a business decision,” he said.

Texas romance with poker

The poker rooms are just the latest manifestation of San Antonio’s long romance with a game that always has been played here, often illegally, and often by people of high social standing.

Decades ago, poker legends Doyle Brunson, Jack “Treetop” Strauss and Amarillo Slim regularly passed through town to relieve local players of their excess cash.

In the 1930s, Virgil “Red” Berry opened the Turf Club, a gambling casino on Soledad. Much later, he operated a well-known casino in his mansion on the East Side.

“People who participate in these games are as a whole very well-known and highly respected citizens of San Antonio,” Police Chief Robert Allen noted of Berry’s operation in a memo written in 1952.

Years later, Tom Moore ran a high-stakes illegal game in Castle Hills and usually managed to avoid police interference.

“The rumors were they had the boss game of Bexar County. And they always made sure the sheriff was there and they made sure he won,” Wolff recalled.

Berry, a state senator, and his pal Slim Lambert were among those arrested. Two poker tables and two blackjack tables were confiscated.

For many San Antonio players, the illegal “home games” were long the only local option. The games typically were held at apartments or private homes. Visits by police were rare. Occasionally, holdups by armed robbers made the news.

The popularity of poker in general, and the number of home games available in San Antonio, exploded about 15 years ago. It occurred after ESPN televised the World Series of Poker, which had evolved from an event founded by Moore in 1969 in Reno.

After millions of Americans watched poker unknown Chris Moneymaker humble the heavyweights for the $2.5 million prize in 2003, Texas Hold’em became a rage. Soon top players like Phil Hellmuth, Johnny Chan and Mike “The Mouth” Matusow had national followings.

Cleaning up their image

At the S.A. Card House, off U.S. 281 at Redland Road, owners Sammy Nooner and Foster Hearn have prepared a fact sheet to make the case that poker houses are good for the community.

“The biggest thing we talk about is what we pay in sales tax: A quarter-million a year. How many school teachers’ salaries will that pay for? Hearn asked.

“We have 62 employees, full and part-time, and we are withholding child support for 15 of them. I’ve hired four or five dealers who said they were making $2,000 to $3,000 a week, and never paid any taxes,” he added.

Hearn, who said his club has more than 4,000 members, expects things will shake out in San Antonio, leaving just a handful of poker houses.

His partner, Nooner, said the clubs are working to clean up the sometimes seedy image of poker games.

“Mainly, we’re trying to bring it out from under the table. We’re after the recreational players here, not the Vegas grinders,” Nooner said.

Jay Roach, 51, a dentist, is just their type of player, and has been coming to the Card House almost weekly since it opened a year ago.

“I’ve been playing about 36 years, casinos, home games and I’m glad I don’t do that anymore. Here, it’s out in the open,” he said on a recent Friday afternoon. “Here, it’s got a card-room-type feel. You are always playing someone different. I feel safe. And it’s where the action is.”

On Nov. 16, the action will be intense as the S.A. Card House hosts a tournament with a $200,000 guaranteed payout. Hearn expects it to be well attended.

“I had a $100,000 guaranteed payout tournament, and I ended up with $338,000 in prize money,” he said.

jmaccormack@express-news.net

[Lurch 5,916]

Let's continue to build our $2/5 NLHE ranges

Earlier we talked about our cold opening range from HJ+.  Seems like we liked the range I provided, perhaps opening it up a bit more from button and being a bit tighter from HJ, but generally we're in the same ballpark with those hands on average.

Now lets look at our raising/calling rage from HJ+.  Let's assume** an average $2/5 player from middle position has opened, no limpers in front and no callers behind. 

Here are my raising hands

And here are my calling hands

I think I'd like to just call with the raising hands 25% of the time, and raise with the calling hands 25% of the time for balance.  Thoughts?

 

(** Had it been a tighter player, an early position open, had limpers in front, or had callers behind, I'd take a more conservative approach, but lets focus on this scenario for now.)

Edited October 25, 2018 by Lurch

[TXSooner518 2,419]

I wouldn't be folding the baby pairs, assuming we are 100 BB deep. Maybe make T9s and JTs calls, and 3b hands like A6-A8s as bluffs instead of those. Probably calling KQo, 98s, 87s, and 76s.

Folding KTo and QTo, QJo is close. Would rather have K9s than those hands. We could also mix in bluff 3b with those hands, since they are on the border of our call/fold range.

I think 25% is too high to switch hands from ranges. Flatting QQ 1/4 of the time is too much, 3b QTo 1/4 of the time is too much. Maybe something like call AA/KK when you have one red, one black, and just sprinkle in border call hands to 3b occasionally.

[Lurch 5,916]

I wouldn't be folding the baby pairs, assuming we are 100 BB deep. Maybe make T9s and JTs calls, and 3b hands like A6-A8s as bluffs instead of those. Probably calling KQo, 98s, 87s, and 76s.
Folding KTo and QTo, QJo is close. Would rather have K9s than those hands. We could also mix in bluff 3b with those hands, since they are on the border of our call/fold range.
I think 25% is too high to switch hands from ranges. Flatting QQ 1/4 of the time is too much, 3b QTo 1/4 of the time is too much. Maybe something like call AA/KK when you have one red, one black, and just sprinkle in border call hands to 3b occasionally.

To call those baby pairs means we’re not just set mining, correct? Not getting set mining odds is predominately why I took them out. “If he makes it $20, am I consistently winning $175 when I hit?” A lot of times I’m likely not.

I like your adjustments

2/3rds of our AA/KK are one red, one black

[TXSooner518 2,419]

I meant like call the red aces and the black kings or vice versa, but don't want to overflat, lose too much value. I do like flatting AA, KK, AK more than QQ and JJ. AA, KK and AK are easier to play postflop, and you can win a nice pot with a disguised flatted AK if an A or K comes.

I don't think we are purely set-mining, for example, we like 55 on flops like 722 or 346 etc. Also if we are $500 deep, we win an average of $175 by getting $150 in post flop.  That can come by our opp losing in various hands 50, 120, 60, 480, 40.  So we don't have to win 175 every time, we need to average 175, which semi-frequent stackoffs give us. Some of this will be opponent-based as well.  Ironically, we want to take the baby pairs against tight openers, more than loose openers, because they are more likely to have a hand that pays off big time when we bink. 

Like calling the baby pairs more when there are likely callers behind, like calling them less when there are likely 3-bettors behind.

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

Hey guys, first time poster.  I live and play up in Denver, great city. over at Ameristar, they had a 1,000 an hour high hand promotion.  I won with a king high straight flush, while my opponent flopped an ace high flush.  I had flopped a king high flush (holding q/9H) on the button.

 

They also have a bad beat pot that is now up to 250k.  I think the winner of the bad beat gets 150k and the loser gets close to 100k.  This has changed the behavior of the players.  Everyone will stay with anything connected, suited, one-gappers.  Brought out a lot of fish who will fold the instant they miss on the flop.  Been easy money.

 

 

Look forward to the banter as I have found this thread very educational.  Small world as I played and won a tournament at Sooner's house.  Nice to see you here B.

[Lurch 5,916]

Welcome!

Nice hit on the HH! How big was the pot?

Usually Bad Beat Jackpots pay 50% to the “loser”, 25% to the best hand and the last 25% is split amongst the other players at the table that were in that hand (aka “table share”). Not the case there?

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

9 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Welcome!

Nice hit on the HH! How big was the pot?

Usually Bad Beat Jackpots pay 50% to the “loser”, 25% to the best hand and the last 25% is split amongst the other players at the table that were in that hand (aka “table share”). Not the case there?

Not here.  I think it varies, but I believe the remaining table guys  Colorado is a good scene, but only a few poker rooms.  I used to pay alot of my bills in college with poker, but haven't played in a while.  Alot of calling stations with this bad beat stuff.  It's great, but usually very few heads up hands.