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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, StassneyHorn said:

So did you go in on the BTC etf from fidelity or did you open a Crypto account at fidelity and “buy” BTC?

I’m in the fidelity ETF, FBTC. Honestly recent experience grappling with physical metals is a bit much. I don’t know all of what buying actual bitcoin entails but I figure for a long term hold - inflation / currency hedge - growth asset play - with a .25% expense structure, 99%+ tracking of actual bitcoin value because the ETF owns actual and only bitcoin with no options or other funny business on the ETF and the only notable drawback is it’s not tradable 24/7 that it was just fine. 

while it has unique features in the end I see it as an explosive growth asset and part of a disruptive trend among finance, transportation, AI, energy and robotics. There are other growth stocks and sectors but I’m hunting these 5 mostly. 

Now I need to invest 100x additional to see this run up to $250-500k or more. In due time maybe. Getting my sea legs as it were right now. 

i am interested in why owning actual crypto is the way to go though. I can see it for use as legal tender but buy and hold?

Edited by troph
Posted
9 hours ago, troph said:

Getting my sea legs as it were right now. 

The first step is buying some (even the ETF). Once you get off of zero and have the appetite to learn more there is a lot to dive into. A ton of resources out there, but I'd recommend this book first. Great beginner technical and historical discussion. Synopsis in spoiler.

The Bitcoin Standard: The Decentralized Alternative to Central Banking: Ammous, Saifedean: 9781119473862: Amazon.com: Books

Spoiler

A comprehensive and authoritative exploration of Bitcoin and its place in monetary history

When a pseudonymous programmer introduced “a new electronic cash system that’s fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party” to a small online mailing list in 2008, very few people paid attention. Ten years later, and against all odds, this upstart autonomous decentralized software offers an unstoppable and globally accessible hard money alternative to modern central banks. The Bitcoin Standard analyzes the historical context to the rise of Bitcoin, the economic properties that have allowed it to grow quickly, and its likely economic, political, and social implications.

While Bitcoin is an invention of the digital age, the problem it purports to solve is as old as human society itself: transferring value across time and space. Author Saifedean Ammous takes the reader on an engaging journey through the history of technologies performing the functions of money, from primitive systems of trading limestones and seashells, to metals, coins, the gold standard, and modern government debt. Exploring what gave these technologies their monetary role, and how most lost it, provides the reader with a good idea of what makes for sound money, and sets the stage for an economic discussion of its consequences for individual and societal future-orientation, capital accumulation, trade, peace, culture, and art. Compellingly, Ammous shows that it is no coincidence that the loftiest achievements of humanity have come in societies enjoying the benefits of sound monetary regimes, nor is it coincidental that monetary collapse has usually accompanied civilizational collapse.

With this background in place, the book moves on to explain the operation of Bitcoin in a functional and intuitive way. Bitcoin is a decentralized, distributed piece of software that converts electricity and processing power into indisputably accurate records, thus allowing its users to utilize the Internet to perform the traditional functions of money without having to rely on, or trust, any authorities or infrastructure in the physical world. Bitcoin is thus best understood as the first successfully implemented form of digital cash and digital hard money. With an automated and perfectly predictable monetary policy, and the ability to perform final settlement of large sums across the world in a matter of minutes, Bitcoin’s real competitive edge might just be as a store of value and network for the final settlement of large payments―a digital form of gold with a built-in settlement infrastructure.

Ammous’ firm grasp of the technological possibilities as well as the historical realities of monetary evolution provides for a fascinating exploration of the ramifications of voluntary free market money. As it challenges the most sacred of government monopolies, Bitcoin shifts the pendulum of sovereignty away from governments in favor of individuals, offering us the tantalizing possibility of a world where money is fully extricated from politics and unrestrained by borders.

The final chapter of the book explores some of the most common questions surrounding Bitcoin: Is Bitcoin mining a waste of energy? Is Bitcoin for criminals? Who controls Bitcoin, and can they change it if they please? How can Bitcoin be killed? And what to make of all the thousands of Bitcoin knockoffs, and the many supposed applications of Bitcoin’s ‘block chain technology’? The Bitcoin Standard is the essential resource for a clear understanding of the rise of the Internet’s decentralized, apolitical, free-market alternative to national central banks.

 

9 hours ago, troph said:

i am interested in why owning actual crypto is the way to go though. I can see it for use as legal tender but buy and hold?

To start there is the old adage "not your keys, not your coins", meaning that unless you hold the private keys then you don't actually control your coins. Only Fidelity can move the coins, only Fidelity can sell the coins during trading hours. 

In the earlier days there was much more concern with exchanges crashing and your coins vanishing. I don't see that with these big Wall Street entities, but there is something to be said for actually holding your assets outside of the walled gardens of Wall St or the banking sector.

I don't have to ask permission to move my bitcoin. I don't get grief if I decide to pull out more than $10,000 cash like from a bank account. I can theoretically send it to anyone I want in the world without having to run it by anybody. If you think the current path of our financial and monetary systems leads to more capital controls then that is very valuable. 

Personally I really appreciate that freedom, but it does come with responsibility.

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Fuck You 1
Posted (edited)

Well I’ve lost digital pictures at multiple times in my life and even as recent as 2016-2018 so until recently it was probably a bad idea for me to own bitcoin directly. Advent of the Wall Street ETF was very helpful for me. 

as for a true apocalypse, well I don't think anything digital will matter and we have tangible gold and silver and a couple of guns and more important a lot of water and shelter that remains cool in the summer without HVAC, so we have tons of advantages.

as for central bank currency hyper-devaluation and fascist control (for purposes of this post we can assume left and right are capable but I’m pretty sure everyone knows how I view the current political risks), that is a risk, but for now I have to live with it. Owning bitcoin is a way to alleviate concerns, but it not my first priority. Our first priority is working on a second place to rightfully live (active measures ongoing), then we will add a second passport, same place as the second place with standard citizenship applications over time or if financially feasible a second passport simply for sale (unlikely but Malta, Nevis, etc.).

from there it’s where to hold assets and even if I wanted to put more in digital currency not sure that’s feasible for a while. 5/6th of our NW is tied up in physical real estate (not a REITs) and closely held business interests (not publicly traded). The good news is the monetization of those will well outpace any currency devaluation and should even outpace bitcoin appreciation, the remaining issue - which I will admit at this point is unclear to me - is how to be flexible with the banking / domicile / location / type of assets to move that into when asset exits occur. With a second passport I could do a lot, but some of that depends on making drastic moves like forsaking US citizenship. Quite frankly I never thought that even remotely likely, but today, with laws passing at every turn that make my life either incredibly difficult or worse functionally unlawful, it is now something I have to consider. Unfortunately I need 5 more years and honestly will probably fall short by 25-30% of a number that makes all of this totally and easily doable (purchasing a second passport and having enough wealth to be citizenship agnostic). But we will see.

Edited by troph
Posted

@troph I see nothing wrong with exposure to bitcoin or other crypto via ETFs. Some crypto enthusiasts believe otherwise. Self-custody gives you more control and privacy but you create risks. An analogy would be that if you buried physical money somewhere but potentially could lost the map. Or become incapacitated without telling someone where to dig. There's no customer service to call to help you when you self-custody. Whereas if you lost your Fidelity password or were locked out of your Fidelity account, you or your family have legal protection/options to recover the funds. Even with a crypto ETF.

One thing to always remember is that self-custody crypto is kept on the public ledger and not on a device like a desktop or even a USB/hardware wallet. The wallet acts as an access point but losing the wallet or desktop neither deletes the crypto nor your ownership stake. The key point is that you have to safely retain your password and/or recovery code. Hopefully in a separate and secure location. 

Posted
40 minutes ago, troph said:

Well I’ve lost digital pictures at multiple times in my life and even as recent as 2016-2018 so until recently it was probably a bad idea for me to own bitcoin directly. Advent of the Wall Street ETF was very helpful for me. 

as for a true apocalypse, well I don't think anything digital will matter and we have tangible gold and silver and a couple of guns and more important a lot of water and shelter that remains cool in the summer without HVAC, so we have tons of advantages.

as for central bank currency hyper-devaluation and fascist control (for purposes of this post we can assume left and right are capable but I’m pretty sure everyone knows how I view the current political risks), that is a risk, but for now I have to live with it. Owning bitcoin is a way to alleviate concerns, but it not my first priority. Our first priority is working on a second place to rightfully live (active measures ongoing), then we will add a second passport, same place as the second place with standard citizenship applications over time or if financially feasible a second passport simply for sale (unlikely but Malta, Nevis, etc.).

from there it’s where to hold assets and even if I wanted to put more in digital currency not sure that’s feasible for a while. 5/6th of our NW is tied up in physical real estate (not a REITs) and closely held business interests (not publicly traded). The good news is the monetization of those will well outpace any currency devaluation and should even outpace bitcoin appreciation, the remaining issue - which I will admit at this point is unclear to me - is how to be flexible with the banking / domicile / location / type of assets to move that into when asset exits occur. With a second passport I could do a lot, but some of that depends on making drastic moves like forsaking US citizenship. Quite frankly I never thought that even remotely likely, but today, with laws passing at every turn that make my life either incredibly difficult or worse functionally unlawful, it is now something I have to consider. Unfortunately I need 5 more years and honestly will probably fall short by 25-30% of a number that makes all of this totally and easily doable (purchasing a second passport and having enough wealth to be citizenship agnostic). But we will see.

All reasonable. I'm sure you've looked, but St Kitts does the passport for sale thing.

For someone considering the moves that you are, holding bitcoin in self custody will definitely make sense for at least one phase of the process. If/when you actually do physically move, having your wealth in bitcoin will mean it can go with you wherever you want. It is borderless. Then set up banking etc where you end up. The devil will be in the details of the conversion into bitcoin and its timing.

some resources if you ever need them

WE RUN BTC

How to Get Started With Bitcoin Self Custody | River

Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

@troph I see nothing wrong with exposure to bitcoin or other crypto via ETFs. Some crypto enthusiasts believe otherwise. Self-custody gives you more control and privacy but you create risks. An analogy would be that if you buried physical money somewhere but potentially could lost the map. Or become incapacitated without telling someone where to dig. There's no customer service to call to help you when you self-custody. Whereas if you lost your Fidelity password or were locked out of your Fidelity account, you or your family have legal protection/options to recover the funds. Even with a crypto ETF.

One thing to always remember is that self-custody crypto is kept on the public ledger and not on a device like a desktop or even a USB/hardware wallet. The wallet acts as an access point but losing the wallet or desktop neither deletes the crypto nor your ownership stake. The key point is that you have to safely retain your password and/or recovery code. Hopefully in a separate and secure location. 

 

with actual experience with tangible metals I can say I'm not quite ready for owning actual bitcoin (which is probably a lot easier). but as a simple example, I'd probably put the recovery password in a safe deposit box at the bank if I had any sizeable amount of bitcoin (at this point more than 2-3 coins). as with any alt asset, there are logistics, the burden of which you have to be ok with.

for me right now, i just need the inflation/currency hedge and the explosive growth so an ETF is great for now and maybe forever, but as my planning above suggests, if we need to make a radical move with assets, we will and at that point losing a bitcoin run up is not the point (presumably by then the ETF has the run up covered), the point is to be flexible and mobile. so liquidating assets, buying bitcoin, moving, then reestablishing a diversified asset base is possible with an agnostic attitude to value because of the temporal nature of the transaction.  

 

31 minutes ago, Fiscal dominance said:

All reasonable. I'm sure you've looked, but St Kitts does the passport for sale thing.

For someone considering the moves that you are, holding bitcoin in self custody will definitely make sense for at least one phase of the process. If/when you actually do physically move, having your wealth in bitcoin will mean it can go with you wherever you want. It is borderless. Then set up banking etc where you end up. The devil will be in the details of the conversion into bitcoin and its timing.

some resources if you ever need them

WE RUN BTC

How to Get Started With Bitcoin Self Custody | River

I get St Kitts and Nevis confused, one or both have passports for sale. Malta is the gold standard based on my limited review, especially for EU travel. both have passports simply for sale.

Edited by troph
Posted
35 minutes ago, troph said:

I get St Kitts and Nevis confused, one or both have passports for sale. Malta is the gold standard based on my limited review, especially for EU travel. both have passports simply for sale.

It's the same thing. Sorry, I missed the Nevis in your initial post.

Posted
47 minutes ago, Fiscal dominance said:

It's the same thing. Sorry, I missed the Nevis in your initial post.

that's what I thought, but I still get confused.

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