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Following up on Hates question about how you got into the Dead.  Our HS in the early 80's was a huge dead head hot spot. The football team (a couple years after I graduated) did pre game warm ups to the Dead on the stadium loud speakers.

You either dug em or hated em. There wasn't a lot of in between sentiment. Heads vs. preps kind of thing. I've always liked the Deads music as Long as I can remember. I'm a much bigger fan now though than then.

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On 9/23/2018 at 3:46 PM, Onboard 2.0 said:

You either dug em or hated em.

 

Yeah, in my case not so much.

My first girlfriend at UT, 1978, was a recent transplant from Cal State Hayward and brought The Dead with her to Austin. It was good grooving music and we went to see them in Houston that winter. The show was great and I still have the vinyl from around then. I saw them again in the mid-80s.

I like them, enjoyed the shows and still like much of their catalog, but I'm no DeadHead.

No offense to those who are, but I'm only "somewhere along the spectrum".

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Jerry used to say that the Dead were like licorice. Not everybody likes licorice. But the people who do like licorice really, really like licorice. 

It's not really a love 'em or hate 'em thing. I know casual fans who enjoy listening to them but couldn't tell you the names of more than a handful of songs. But to really get them takes hours and hours of listening. Focused listening. Their catalog is so large and no song was played the same way twice. And their career was divided into a good number of separate eras with distinctive styles and sounds. A representative collection requires dozens of recordings at a minimum. And it requires listening to them. 

It's definitely understandable why some people hate them. They don't conform to normal expectations. If you heard your Deadhead friends playing live tapes you probably thought the sound quality was bad and you heard flubs in the playing. Or maybe Jerry forgot a lyric, or Bobby sang the wrong one. Deadheads gloss over those things because they're looking at the bigger picture. The Dead weren't a band that went out and performed a fixed song list every night that was rehearsed to perfection. They were out there winging it, without a net, and we forgive the mistakes because their approach could produce magic unlike anyone else. 

I used to be a big fan of Rush. I was impressed by how perfectly they could mimic their album sound in concert. And it's true that a lot of bands can't perform live the way they sound on their studio albums. But at some point, why are you going to see them in concert? Just listen to the albums. Why would you go see the same exact show on two consecutive nights? 

Here's the thing. When you and I think of the Rush song Tom Sawyer and play it in our head, we're hearing the exact same song. Everyone conceives Tom Sawyer in exactly the same way. We can all play air drums right along with it and match Neil beat-for-beat. But pick a Dead tune and play that in your head and you're hearing something different than I am. Your Bertha is different from my Bertha. And chances are what each of us hears doesn't correspond to any one performance of that song. It's an amalgam of all of them and how we might play it tomorrow is probably different from how we'd play it today. 

I feel like I should have some big final "Aha!" point to make here but I can't think of one that doesn't sound stupid so I'm just going to stop now and post this as is. 

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You described absolutely perfectly WTB!  So many of their songs were played so differently over the years that it's impossible to have a consensus on how a song should be played.  Eyes of the World is a perfect example for me.  The first time I heard that song was on Without a Net and it struck me.  I know most of the old school Deadheads here don't really like that version very much and prefer the faster, jazzier version they played in the 70's.  But that's the beauty of the Dead.  The different eras and different sounds through the years is amazing.  I'm an unabashed Brent Era fan, but there are some songs that I much prefer the way they were played during the Keith Era.  Brown Eyed Women and Terrapin Station are two very good examples of that for me.  There are a lot of Deadheads that won't listen to anything after 1970.  It's weird to me because they are missing out on so much, IMO, but I get it.  At any rate, I can't imagine there will ever be another band like them and I'm so glad that I was turned on to them.  It changed my life. 

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Another reason I'm glad I have Sirius.   I had no idea before that Willie covered Stella Blue, and right now it's playing in my car.   Fuck yes. 

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22 hours ago, Hate said:

There are a lot of Deadheads that won't listen to anything after 1970.  

I have always been interested in these types of breakdowns.  The end of 70 strikes me as an odd delineation.  I would understand a break after Constanten left in early 70 which kind of ended the psychedelic era as they moved into the American Beauty/Workingman's era.

I see the pre-hiatus eras as follows:

67 -> 11/68 (Constanten's arrival) - Primal Dead

11/68 -> 1/70 (Constanten's departure) - Psychedelic Dead 

1/70 -> 3/72 (Donna's arrival) - The transition to peak GD.  Mickey leaves, Godchauxs arrive.  Overhaul of songbook

3/72 - 10/74 (Hiatus) - Peak GD.  Europe 72, Wall of Sound, Veneta, The Honey Year.  Watkins Glen Soundcheck Jam.  Seastones.  WRS.  HCS.  Best versions of DS, TOO, PITB

 

 

 

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I just picked 1970 as the end of the 60's era Grateful Dead.  I wasn't making any kind of assertions as to what the line of delineation of the 60-70's eras were.  I just know form reading the responses to the shows on youtube and headyversion that there are an awful lot of people that won't listen to anything after Pigpen's heyday.  There are probably more that are like you and won't listen to anything after 74.  I'm probably in the minority of Deadheads that prefer the Brent era, and it has nothing to do with being a "Touch of Grey head".  While I did like the song, that is not what got me into the Dead and probably wouldn't even crack my top 75 Dead songs.  I think the best way to differentiate between the eras is by keyboardist since they all brought such unique sounds to the songs.  

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I regularly listen to 75-78 and have almost all of the big shows from that period in my collection.  I also like a bunch of specific shows from 79-82 with May 81 as a particular preference in the era.  My listening does dry up significantly post-82.  It's kind of crazy how little of the second half of the band's career I listen to.

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37 minutes ago, Hate said:

Is it that you just choose not to or you've listened to it and didn't like it?

It's really a combination of things.  I don't like Brent's voice, original songs or his Casio tones from his earlier years with the band. The MIDI effects from the 90s also irritate me if I'm not in the right mood.  The Welnick w/o Hornsby years are a complete wash and I would never listen to another show from that period but for the GD channel. 

89-91 is obviously lauded but it's never really grabbed me.  At some point I will do a deeper dive into those eras (Summer 89, Spring 90 and the September 91 MSG run with Hornsby), but I'm still working through the PNW 73 box and will receive another Dave's shortly thereafter! 

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I completely agree with you on Brent’s songs. I really only like the jam part of “Blow Away” and that’s about it. If you’re going to do a summer of 89 listen, the Buffalo 7/4 and the Philly 7/7 show are outstanding. The Buffalo show is available on Prime to watch and you can see how much fun they were having. The Philly show is on youtube and may be my favorite show.

And once again, there is no “wrong” answer for a band with the catalogue and longevity that the Dead had. I can listen to pretty much any show, but I’ve never really liked the late 60’s shows. Then again, I’ve never taken a hit of acid or dropped some shrooms and tried to listen to them. I’m too old for that shit now.

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10/12/68 is probably my favorite primal dead show.  The Eleven is ridiculous.  One of my favorite dead moments.

Funny article regarding the show:

"It’s a short show by Dead standards — just about 80 minutes — comprised entirely of CRUSHING jams. No folky “Sugar Magnolia” sing-a-long first set, not much noodly Phish bullshit and almost no sign of the gentle rainbow twirly groovin’ bear nonsense. Instead it’s near ambient passages that slowly gather speed and intensity before exploding into massive psychedelic earthquakes of rhythm that leave aftershocks of cosmic guitar lines shimmering through the air. This is the fearsome and messy STEAL YOUR FACE sound that people who compare the Dead to Royal Trux or Comets on Fire are talking about. A Dead show where you can see why Greg Ginn and the Black Flag dudes were into these guys."

https://arthurmag.com/2009/08/06/heavy-primal-dead-from-october-12-1968/

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It’s nothing, they explain, it's like a diesel train
you better not be there when it rolls, over,
And when that train rolls in, you wonder where it's been,
You gotta try and see a little further.


In the 90’s there was talk of VW bringing back the van. Had it happened, I would’ve bought my wife one and spent the money on some version of a TLEO vanity plate. Lord you can see that’s it’s true.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Even the GD channel archivists admit the Dead had a rough spot/rut from the mid 70s to mid 80s.

The one thing I notice more post the John Mayer interviews is from Mayer saying Jerry had the ability to play anything by anyone but yet you'd always know it was Jerry, is the musicality of the notes in Jerry's playing. Not sure how to explain that other than you never get the grating virtuoso showing off crazy licks on the electric guitar and always get musical notes that would be as at home on an acoustical guitar.

Edited by ShaggyBevo RIP

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I get it. Btw, I’m on the porch watching 7/4/89 and drinking whiskey. And smoking kB.

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And now I’m listening to TLEO from 5/8/77. I’ll listen to the Brown Eyed Women before I call it an evening.

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12 hours ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

Even the GD channel archivists admit the Dead had a rough spot/rut from the mid 70s to mid 80s.

More like 81-95 with the notable exception of 89-90. 

Dave and Dick have only released ONE show from 84-87 (Dick's Picks 21 - 11/1/85).  The edges of that range are also fairly sparse with only 2 shows released from each of 81, 82, 83 and 88.  91-95 are also sparsely represented with only 5 shows released from that period.

They have released the same number of shows (14) from one month in 1977 (May) as they have from the 13 years from 81-88 and 91-95. 

They have released more shows from one week in 1977 (May 8 - May 14) than they have from the 8 years from 84-87 and 92-95 (5 to 4).

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Doesn't that time period more or less coincide with Jerry's heroin problem?  I read somewhere that he was so fucked up at times that he would slobber all over the microphone. 

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Thinking about buying Dick's Picks Vol. 8 on Vinyl. 5/2/1970. It's basically one all-acoustic set where they play a ton of American Beauty, Workingman's Dead, and traditional arrangements, then an electric jammy set, then a short set that's more of a lengthy encore.

The limited run sold at $139 when released and has long since sold out. I found a guy who has a sealed copy and is asking $165 for it with free shipping. I'd be dumb not to buy this, right?

Set 1 

Don't Ease Me In, I Know You Rider, Friend Of The Devil, Dire Wolf, Beat It On Down The Line-> Black Peter, Candyman-> Cumberland Blues, Deep Elem Blues, Cold Jordan*, Uncle John's Band

Set 2

Saint Stephen-> Cryptical Envelopement-> Drums-> The Other One-> Cryptical Envelopement-> Cosmic Charlie, Casey Jones, Good Lovin'-> Drums-> Good Lovin', Cold Rain & Snow, It's A Man's World, Dancin' In The Streets

Set 3

Morning Dew, Viola Lee Blues-> Feedback-> We Bid You Good Night

 

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11 minutes ago, Grandioso said:

Thinking about buying Dick's Picks Vol. 8 on Vinyl. 5/2/1970. It's basically one all-acoustic set where they play a ton of American Beauty, Workingman's Dead, and traditional arrangements, then an electric jammy set, then a short set that's more of a lengthy encore.

The limited run sold at $139 when released and has long since sold out. I found a guy who has a sealed copy and is asking $165 for it with free shipping. I'd be dumb not to buy this, right?

Set 1 

Don't Ease Me In, I Know You Rider, Friend Of The Devil, Dire Wolf, Beat It On Down The Line-> Black Peter, Candyman-> Cumberland Blues, Deep Elem Blues, Cold Jordan*, Uncle John's Band

Set 2

Saint Stephen-> Cryptical Envelopement-> Drums-> The Other One-> Cryptical Envelopement-> Cosmic Charlie, Casey Jones, Good Lovin'-> Drums-> Good Lovin', Cold Rain & Snow, It's A Man's World, Dancin' In The Streets

Set 3

Morning Dew, Viola Lee Blues-> Feedback-> We Bid You Good Night

 

I'm personally not a fan of the Dead on vinyl, but that is definitely a legendary show.  The Viola Lee is an insane rager.

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Holy shit. I've never watched a minute of Nash Bridges in my life. I was just flipping channels and left it on for a bit. Next thing I know Don Johnson and Cheech Marin are standing in the room of some Deadhead chick with Dead memorabilia covering the walls, Dark Star playing on the stereo, and she's complaining that someone stole her GD ticket stub collection. 

It was an early version of Dark Star. Probably the one from Live Dead. I was too blown away to pay close attention. It was kind of your typical stereotypical bullshit with a pseudo shrine built with candles and GD symbology. The violin playing skeleton from the Blues for Allah cover was prominently displayed. That wasn't a scene that would've happened if there weren't some Deadheads on the production staff. It was kind of disrespectful but at least someone made sure Dark Star got played. 

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^
speaking of that kinda stuff...did anybody else have one of those posters of little pictures symbolizing various Dead songs?  There were a dozen different versions.  Bought mine at a Deer Creek show in the mid 90's from the back of a Subaru also dealing in sundries and doses.  Wish I could find that exact one.  

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On 10/4/2018 at 6:19 AM, alincoln said:

For $185, you can buy the PNW box set. 

Got the 5/19/74 vinyl. It's a winner and was only around $120-125.00 at my local indie record store (You can order it from Target for $102.49 though). 

For new vinyls, I'm going to start selling out here pretty soon. Walmart, Barnes and Noble, and Target are so cheap compared to the local places and shipping is free once you hit $50 at Walmart and $25 at Barnes and Noble. 

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35 minutes ago, Lobo said:

^
speaking of that kinda stuff...did anybody else have one of those posters of little pictures symbolizing various Dead songs?  There were a dozen different versions.  Bought mine at a Deer Creek show in the mid 90's from the back of a Subaru also dealing in sundries and doses.  Wish I could find that exact one.  

You mean this one?

69-6904-M3DX100Z.jpg?ch=616&cw=975

It took me forever to get Chinatown Shuffle. 

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No, but I know that one well.  This one was in color and not quite one contiguous scene as the one above is.  It was probably a run of 100 copies made by the guy so he could buy weed, Samuel Smith beers, and grilled cheeses along the road.  Probably lost to time as so many other dead show purchases I made over the years.  But yeah, that image you posted is always fun for a trip down memory lane.  Some of those songs are an absolute bitch to figure out 

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This thread is too quiet!

Moses come ridin' up on a quasar
His spurs were jingling, the door was ajar
His buckle was silver, his manner was bold
And I asked him to come in out of the cold
His brain was boiling, his reason was spent
His motto is nothing is borrowed, nothing is lent
He ask me for mercy, I gave him a gun
He said these things just got to be done
Abraham and Isaac sitting on a fence
You'd get right to work if you had any sense
You know the one thing we need is a left-hand monkey wrench
 

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I’m just checking in to say that the 10/7/77 show from the University of New Mexico is a great show!!

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All the guitar tabs for Estimated Prophet suck so I had to resort to finding a video lesson. I stumbled across this guy, God bless him. Takes him 8 minutes to get past the first two notes. And he's all, "I hope I didn't sound kinda condescending there..." over nothing. Dude saw his "Mean People Suck" poster and felt guilty.

After he gets past the first riff, he sits down and you're like, "NOOOOOOOOOooooo. Go to the next part!"

 

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19 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

What part of Estimated Prophet are you having trouble with?  I know it pretty well. 

Jerry's stuff (and variations) during the chorus. The regular tabs don't show the harmonies he's doing. 

Also was looking for the shepard's tone kind of walk-up right before the solo. On the studio version, it's 3:10 to about 3:30. But in the live versions, he's way up the neck at the end and throwing down some cool little extras. See 5/8/1977 at 3:22-3:38, for example.

This dude actually links some pdfs that are handy with the basics.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B487PU9df8DPZDhHY3VZQnlxbW8/view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B487PU9df8DPdjNZQ1ZoOG5rVTQ/view

For example, I did not know this song was in 7/4. I probably ought to know the song's count, right?

EDIT: I'm fixing to order a Micro Q-Tron so I may page you in the "Song you're playing on guitar" thread. Shakedown Street's up next. 

Edited by Grandioso

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25 minutes ago, Grandioso said:

Jerry's stuff (and variations) during the chorus. The regular tabs don't show the harmonies he's doing. 

Also was looking for the shepard's tone kind of walk-up right before the solo. On the studio version, it's 3:10 to about 3:30. But in the live versions, he's way up the neck at the end and throwing down some cool little extras. See 5/8/1977 at 3:22-3:38, for example.

This dude actually links some pdfs that are handy with the basics.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B487PU9df8DPZDhHY3VZQnlxbW8/view

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B487PU9df8DPdjNZQ1ZoOG5rVTQ/view

For example, I did not know this song was in 7/4. I probably ought to know the song's count, right?

EDIT: I'm fixing to order a Micro Q-Tron so I may page you in the "Song you're playing on guitar" thread. Shakedown Street's up next. 

Have you looked at the Jdarks tab for those parts?   He tabs both of those parts out pretty well:  http://jdarks.com/GDTab.html

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Estimated is in 14. I always assumed 14/4 but I think I recall reading in Billy's book that it's 14/8. I'm not a musician and don't have the education in music theory to know for sure by listening or to express it properly. But it's definitely in 14. Count it out in 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4, 4-2. It's got that rising and descending scale that hits the low note on the one and repeats the cycle. 

I love that song. Great lyrics (RIP John Barlow), Bobby screams, and the jam out of Estimated is one of my favorite spaces in all of their music. Such a cool groove. 

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I'm pretty sure Estimated is in 7/4, but I guess you could think of the intro as 14/4 because the opening riff covers two measures. 

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8 hours ago, Mojo Hand said:

I'm pretty sure Estimated is in 7/4, but I guess you could think of the intro as 14/4 because the opening riff covers two measures. 

Like I said, I'm not a musician. I wouldn't know it was in 14 and counted the way I described it if the Dead hadn't told me. I may have first read about it in David Gans' book Playing in the Band. Maybe I heard him talk about it on his Grateful Dead Hour radio program. Or heard Bobby talk about it. And I'm pretty sure it was in Billy's book where he talks about the unusual time signatures they used (which would make sense). Playin' is in 10, The Eleven is in 11, and Estimated is in 14. Count it out as you listen. That last pair of beats after the first three groups of four is noticeable. On the one comes "California!"

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28 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Like I said, I'm not a musician. I wouldn't know it was in 14 and counted the way I described it if the Dead hadn't told me. I may have first read about it in David Gans' book Playing in the Band. Maybe I heard him talk about it on his Grateful Dead Hour radio program. Or heard Bobby talk about it. And I'm pretty sure it was in Billy's book where he talks about the unusual time signatures they used (which would make sense). Playin' is in 10, The Eleven is in 11, and Estimated is in 14. Count it out as you listen. That last pair of beats after the first three groups of four is noticeable. On the one comes "California!"

Like I said, 14 lines up with the beats too because it is 7 x 2, and the intro, for example, spreads the main riff over two measures, which does add up to 14.  Here's Bill talking about it, and he describes it as sevens across two measures:

 

The song’s original 7/4 time signature was conceived by Weir using a metronome-like device known as a Trinome. The song’s structure was pieced together by self-described “shards of stuff in seven” Weir had been working on with a riff that he developed during a band rehearsal. Drummer Bill Kreutzmann took Weir’s at-the-time fascination with 7/4 and further developed the rhythm to give the LP’s lead track its “groove.”

“Bobby came and showed me ‘Estimated Prophet’ at rehearsal,” Kreutzmann explained to Alan Paul in 2015. “And he had it going, ‘one, two, three, four, five, six, seven … ‘one, two, three, four, five, six, seven …’ I said, ‘Bobby, that’s no groove, That’s not working.’ I went home on a rainy night and stood in front of my fireplace by myself, rocking my body back and forth and counting and thinking. And I went, ‘Wow. Why don’t we make it half time and make two bars of seven into a 14? So it’s seven doublets and you come down on an even number!’ So we play sevens in bars of two; phrasing it that way is much more musical. That’s how I gave ‘Estimated Prophet’ groove. [sings the beat] The half time is the end of four, which takes you to a new seven.”

https://www.jambase.com/article/inspiration-celebrating-40-years-terrapin-station-estimated-prophet

 

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And Bruce Hornsby:

Quote

 

I loved Bob Weir’s song "Estimated Prophet." I love the 7/4 time signature and so I just kind of ripped it for a song called “Tango King.” Weir got a kick out of it. He said, “Shameless, man.” (laughs)

 

https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/music/2017/07/02/bruce-hornsby-interview-phoenix/445012001/

That said, it's certainly possible that Bill counted out 14 in his head as a way of keeping the groove across two bars of 7.   But the guitars and keys are definitely playing in 7/4 because in the chorus they play a sort of point - counterpoint at each new 7.   Maybe the drums keep the same thing going across 14 beats and the drums, at least, could be considered 14/8.   I'll listen for that next time I hear it.   I focus mostly on guitar cause that's my instrument. 

Edited by Mojo Hand

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59 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

Like I said, 14 lines up with the beats too because it is 7 x 2, and the intro, for example, spreads the main riff over two measures, which does add up to 14.  Here's Bill talking about it, and he describes it as sevens across two measures:

 

 

Mea culpa. I dug out Bill's book and it does say 7/4. I don't know why that didn't stick when I read it (although there were some coupons from a restaurant I stopped visiting a long time ago used as bookmarks so that might be a clue). 

There's probably some conflation with Playin' which is definitely in 10 and counted in two sets of four and an extra two. The early part of Estimated, both compositionslly and lyrically, is in 2 measure long units. That in itself is something I wouldn't have ever noticed on my own so I must have heard something about it at some point long ago and always thought of the song as being in 14. I don't know enough to make it up. I'm pretty sure that's been my impression of the song for more than twenty years. 

But when you get to the "You've all been asleep" line the 7 beat measure becomes more apparent. I've always stopped counting by then and just gotten into the groove.

Checking the "Songwriting" chapter of Gans' book, it doesn't say anything about the time signatures of any specific songs. But it does include this quote from Bobby:

"I just don't see why the bounds of popular music should be so constricting as to deny possibility of, for instance, odd time signatures or harmonic modes."

That's a big part of what I love about Dead music. I love unusual time signatures, polyrhythms, unusual chords, etc. I couldn't begin to explain modal music beyond the most basic of terms but I can hear that there's a difference. There's so much more depth there than the casual listener ever realizes.

Btw, I threw on the Estimated from Dick's Picks 29 (Atlanta 5/19/77) this morning because it was the last track on a disc and that's all I wanted to hear. There are three unlisted bonus tracks as filler on that disc. I never got around to looking it up before but the unlisted filler on DP 29 is from, you're gonna love this, the Lloyd Noble Center in Norman, OK on 10/11/77. The filler on disc 2 of DP 29 is a scorching NFA > Wharf Rat > Around & Around. I believe that's all straight up 4/4 rock 'n' roll but it's pretty hot. 

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For some really unknown stupid reason, I’m just now watching the “Long Strange Trip” show from a year or two ago. I just watched Episode 5 and HOLY SHIT was that awesome. I love the Hunter stuff. That was fantastic!! Now I’m going to have to drink some more whiskey, smoke some more KB, listen to more Dead, and stare at the moon on the first beautiful fall night in Texas!!

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I listen to shows now and I’m like, “May 8, 1977? Fuck second grade, I could have been in Ithaca!!!”.

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Just got Dave’s picks 28, 6/17/76 (the day before I was born). The quality of the mix from the Bettyboard is incredible.  Listened to the first set so far.  Really nice Big River, they love each other, cassidy, row jimmy, and music never stopped. Can’t wait for set 2!  Keeping my complete Dave’s collection going as i’ve subscribed next year as well.  Wish I would have done so with Dick’s and Road Trips.

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Where the hell is everyone??I’m jamming all over the map tonight. 77 to 89. I can’t be the only one!

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Those things look like two puppies playing under a duvet cover.  

Since the parking lot scene at 24 dead shows is libertarian vibes at their best, I am hoisting up my "Vote Libertarian" /noCR sign right now, listening to The Golden Road... counting down the hours until this election season is over.  

Edited by Lobo

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On 10/31/2018 at 11:47 PM, Druggist said:

Just got Dave’s picks 28, 6/17/76 (the day before I was born). The quality of the mix from the Bettyboard is incredible.  Listened to the first set so far.  Really nice Big River, they love each other, cassidy, row jimmy, and music never stopped. Can’t wait for set 2!  Keeping my complete Dave’s collection going as i’ve subscribed next year as well.  Wish I would have done so with Dick’s and Road Trips.

Just reupped for 2019.  Great start with 2/26/77.

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