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Lurch

2020 Poker: Color Up!

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Got back into a PLO game on Friday night.  Made most of my money off two consecutive hands against the same player.  Flopped top set both hands and he calls my pot bets after pretty safe turn cards ($900+) each time.  I get lucky and he fails to hit his draws.  Sammy Farha got to my table late but I never got in a hand with him before I left.  Netted a little over $1700.

 

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Man I don't see how y'all play PLO. Unless I have the nuts I never know where I'm at in the hand. And if I have the nuts on the turn the board always pairs on the river. Seriously, the worst thing in the world is flopping the nut straight in PLO.

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15 minutes ago, Bookman said:

Man I don't see how y'all play PLO. Unless I have the nuts I never know where I'm at in the hand.

Pretty sure that is the exact reason people play PLO......"GAMBLE!!"

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It’s terribly fun. And also a great way to lose a lot in a very short time. Played it today and we were getting 5way allin pre on a lot of hands. I didn’t drag a single pot and was done in about 45 mins but with 3 buyins I was THIS close to a huge score 3 times.

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16 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

My two least favorite things on earth - poker and my life.

god damn it, run better.

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5 way all-in preflop in PLO? What kind of hands were they stacking off with?


I saw a 3-way all on pre in a 2-5 PLO game for about $800 each. Only one dude flips over two cards pre and says here is the winner and he shows 10-2. Sure enough he makes two pair with the 10-2. Other two guys muck and the winner had to turn over the other two cards which were A-A. Had to laugh on that one.

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5 way all-in preflop in PLO? What kind of hands were they stacking off with?


From what I recall seeing, a lot of middling straight draw type hands were winning JT98 etc. I was calling and forced all in w AA and KK hands where one was suited to another card.

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played 1/2 today.  bought in for $200.   

managed to get felted in the 2nd rotation (not having played a hand yet) with AcKx  UTG. 

The SB pre announced before the hand that he only had $35 left and was going all in.  I raise to $15,  the big stack who has been an aggressive LP raiser makes it $50 which is a bit big, but not crazy, although I guess it was a semi-isolation bet towards the SB?  folds around- yes, including SB who gives a "next hand" speech. I call.   

Flop is Kc, xC xC.  I bet $50,  aggressive shoves, I snap call.  He shows AA. and I miss the 11 outs twice.   rebuy for $200.  Very next hand I am the BB. a few limps including Asian Max who hasnt met a suited hand he doesnt love.   this time the button makes good on his all in blind shove (I watched to make sure he didnt look) for $34.  SB folds, I have K4ss.  after getting felted I want to gamble and I know K high is ahead of many blind shoves.  So I call,  folds to Asian max who calls as well.

Flop is As-2s-Jh.  I check and Max bets out $30.   I really dont put him on an Ace here, and I honestly think Ive got the best hand (incl the Button).  So I check raise to $65. Max calls.  Turn is the Kh,  Now I am pretty fucking sure Im ahead and I shove for $101.  Max tanks  and calls.   river is the 9h.... and Max rolls over 2-5hh.     Button rolls over 2-7off.   All I could say was wow.

So less than $30 min in, Im down $400.  rebuy for $220, lose another $70 on a semi bluff and addon another $100.  Its my last $100.  Very, very slowly chip up. about an hour later I am sitting with about $400 when I finally get a small run going where I turn the nut straight on a full rainbow board as the button.  win around $90 on that hand. then manage to make more than $150 on a K high board with KT,   he had a worse king and I held.   

Move tables taking around $500 with me. I have to buy the button, get QJ,  UTG  makes it $12. 5 others call before I act.  so fuck it. $10 to call. I call

Flop is Qc-7c-Qx.   I decide to check assuming someone is gonna take a swipe at the board, UTG shoves for $41. there are FOUR callers. before I act.

Someone has to have a flush draw here right?  other than UTG I just cant see another Q just smooth calling those bets (unless someone has Q7 or 77 exactly),  So I decide to charge the draws and make it $110 to go....... everyone (except UTG obv) tank folds.  LOL, what?  no fucking clue what anyone else had.   

Now if I had known the mother fucking Jc was gonna be the damn turn card, I would have just called.    river is a low blank and Ive got the true nuts and take down a pretty big pot.  No idea what UTG had, he mucked saying if I had a Q I was good.   win a few more medium hands and pack it up. 

finally leave at $900.   so after being down $520, I end up with a +$180   3 hour session. 

Edited by AUS-97HORN

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In a downswing like I’ve never experienced. Bad cards, bad beats, but mostly feels like shitty play...

Tips on getting out of a poker funk?

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Had A-A in the big blind in a six-handed loose passive home game, $0.50/$1.00. Guy in the small blind is a bit of a call station, who is known to bluff from time to time. I play with him often.

Folds to him in the SB, he calls with 6-6, I raise to $4.00, he calls.

Flop is 10-7-2 rainbow. He checks, I bet $5, he calls. I figure he's calling with a pair or 8-9, maybe even K-Q or K-J. I don't think he has an ace, but maybe.

Turn is 4 of diamonds, bringing two diamonds. I bet $10, he calls.

River is 6 of diamonds, he bets into me $20.00. I don't have a diamond, if that's worth anything.

At this point I know he has a big hand. Straight got there, backdoor flush, maybe he flopped a set. I've played with him enough to know that he's not doing to that to me with a single pair.

But I can't just fold a good hand when he donks into me on the river. I could have pocket 10s here or pocket 7s. I'm definitely calling with those.

I have to call with 25% of my hands to avoid being exploited here. Is A-A in that range? Maybe A-A with the A of diamonds?

Should I have bet more on the flop? More on the turn?

And in a somewhat related question, when I'm up against a single player with an overpair, I sometimes check the turn for pot control and just to disguise the strength of my hand, but only when I'm out of position. I don't think I've ever done that in position. 

Is that a good strategy? Am I ever checking this turn?

Anyway, I called. Is that donkey?

 

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Pre and flop seem fine, but on a super draw heavy turn like that, I think you have to make the pay more to see the river. He could have 9 to 15 outs, so you can’t give him 3:1. I’d go $15 or $20 into that pot of $18 on the turn.

I wouldn’t check back the turn. We want three streets of value here. Yes, you’ll occasionally have to fold to a check raise but that’s priced in by betting a lot of these draw heavy turns where he’ll pay too much and miss as a calling station.

Donk river usually has the nuts in our games. Savvy opponents will use it when they miss their draw, or when a draw they don’t have hits and they decide to claim it. If your opponent is that good, you may have to call here. If he’s pretty weak (and calling station suggests he might be) I think I can find a fold. What bluff does this? He’s not doing it with a weaker pair, for sure.

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It's possible to check this turn against certain opponents who will always "put you on AK" and then bet 100% of rivers to make you fold. I actually would prefer doing it in position rather than out of position, since they are more likely to lead the river OOP and may just check back if they are IP. 

I generally would be going for 3 streets of value blind vs blind with AA on most runouts, including this one. 

You shouldn't worry as much about being exploited if you have strong reads on what your opponent is actually doing. Your opp here isn't implementing some piosolver mixed frequencies strategy, he's playing his cards 99% of the time. He check-called flop and turn, meaning he had at least a pair or draw theoretically. Now he leads river. The only real draw got there. You say you are positive he never does this with one pair - some people will block bet the river with one pair to "set the price" and not check and have you bet $17 instead of $10, for example. If he won't do this with a pair, it's very hard for it to be a raw bluff, b/c what was he ck-calling flop and turn with?

If I sat down readless, I would have played it like you did, but if you are confident on your read, you can just exploitatively fold river. Same concept as 3b-folding KK to an opponent who you know only 4b AA.

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I knew I was probably beat when he donked. I called because I play with him a lot and I don’t want to get the reputation of folding to donk river bets. I figured A-A was in the 25% of hands I theoretically should call with. Or maybe I’m overthinking it. 
 

i would have folded if he had bet $30. Probably would have folded to a $25 bet. So good sizing on his part.

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interesting hand yesterday.  curious to see responses. 

participants. 

OMC.  classic OMC. hes the button in this hand.  Sitting with $1k

YG.  early 30s decent grinder, doesnt get too out of line, and isnt a crazy player. Hes just had a series of pretty ugly suckouts  so hes steaming, sitting with about $550. Hes the SB.  we have played together multiple times and commiserated at the idiotic calls and moves that players make on us or the table that end up paying off.   Not friends, but Im also not targeting playing with him either.

Me: Playing 1/2 with approx $550 in front.

Small backstory,  there are 3 raisin' asian's  to act after me in this hand, there isnt a hand they dont like to raise with,  Ive done pretty well chipping up by limp-raising them with strong hands and keeping up the aggression on flops, even when Ive missed, Ive shown down QQ, KK, AK (A board),  in the last 3 rounds.

Get AKo  UTG+2.  folds to me, and I limp for reasons above.  3 other limpers including 1 of my initial targets. 

UNTIL OMC makes it $30.     OMC hasnt raised this hard in a long time, but I have seen him do it with TT/JJ multiple times in the past because he really doesnt want to see a flop with them. And he has folded them face up before if shown re-aggression.

YG  smooth calls the $30.   Folds to me.

Now, in the last 4 sessions I have run AK into AA 5 times, so I am a bit on high alert because of that.   

I am out of position.  Its possible OMC really has the nuts here, so I honestly considered just folding, but I thought that would just be way too nitty.   

Calling doesnt seem like the right move here because if I call, there's a damn good chance at least a few of the limpers behind will call, because duh, pot odds, and I really dont want to take AK mega-multiway.

So I take my time and finally raise to $75.  folds around to OMC, who with much excited emphasis, waves his arms and shouts all in (hes got me covered).  

SB folds in disgust,  and I take a small bit, and say, "I'm giving you a lot of credit here, and I'm gonna fold this and show the AK".   Button  shows the nizzles and then YG starts going OFF on me.

"why in the fuck did you raise there?", "You know hes got it", 

I replied saying I wanted to see where I was, and get everyone else out. 

Again more berating. "you didnt raise shit, you fucking minraised, why even bother doing that?"   I stopped responding  and he sat and grumbled under his breath for the next 15 mins or so.   My guess is he had a pocket pair looking to set mine.

 

So I ask the board, was my raise really that fucked up?  A 1.5x  pre-flop check raise 3 bet after a 15X raise in my experience tends to normalize the players, and revert to old school playing.  especially in $1/2 where we arent really that deepstacked and a 37X BB bet shows a lot of strength.

If hes got 99-QQ he really doesnt like the smooth call by the SB, and my raise isnt out of character for me having QQ+, so if he doesnt have the rockets or KK, he might very well just call and/or even fold with the smaller end of his range, which is kind of what I am aiming for...  

and it only cost me $75 to narrow it to 3 players, and then figure out I was way behind and get away from it.   Vs making it $100 or so and getting the same information when he jams anyway.

If he just calls and the SB calls, no matter what the flop is (barring the SB leads out) Im obviously C-betting anyway.   So in my mind, Ive just saved myself anywhere from $10-100 by raising pre.

final note, YG stopped his bitching after a bomb pot against me where he shoved all $500 into me on the turn, when I had the nut straight on the top board and 2 pair on the bottom when he had 2 pair up top and a flush draw only on the bottom and rivered the flush on the bottom to chop, he realized how behind he was and how close he was to getting scooped.

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I’m fine with it. I’d probably just call his $30 w AKo there as see the flop, though it’d be pretty rare for me to have limped in the first place.

Had you opened to $10, get four callers behind, BTN probably goes $100, only you call and you see a flop. Could have been ugly for you

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Just wanted to share a hand I played today. I've played with this guy five or six times, he's very aggressive, and he always straddles. Whenever he's in position on me, he often puts in a huge raise and I'm usually forced to fold. When I've called, he often shoves the turn and I've never had a hand to call that bet.

Well today I have AK of hearts under the gun, raise to 3x the straddle, and get two callers, including the villain on the button. Flop is A-10-7, two clubs, I bet the pot, and the villain calls.

Turn is K of diamonds. I check to induce a bluff, he shoves and I snap call. I have him covered. River was an A. He didn't show his hand.

Damn it felt good to take his stack. 

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Love a good read paying off

 

You could have forced him to show or fold, fwiw

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I intended to but once I rivered the nuts I forgot. I assumed he had 10-Q or J-10 of clubs or something like that, at best.

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I would consider the benefit of seeing one hand vs making someone have hard feelings/decide they don’t want to bluff you anymore bc they have to show/make you show your missed bluffs.

 

EDIT: much different if you make a thin hero call vs this hand here where we have the literal nuts.

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I would consider the benefit of seeing one hand vs making someone have hard feelings/decide they don’t want to bluff you anymore bc they have to show/make you show your missed bluffs.
 
EDIT: much different if you make a thin hero call vs this hand here where we have the literal nuts.


This is an interesting point to think about. I’ve mostly gone towards not asking or demanding to see hands. Maybe I do this because I play infrequently and not against the same people enough to gain valuable hand range info. But the biggest pots I ever won were in 5/10 cash games at Bellagio and I never knew what the other guy had. It doesn’t make for a great story when you say you won a massive pot and go through the hand history and get asked what the other guy had and say I have no idea. Although then it’s fun to consider what it might have been.

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I know all of the tough regs will make me show, so I am consistent as I can remember to be to making them show. I’ve had a number of them fold rather than show, so I didn’t even have to show the winner. No info shared is an extra win for me

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I know all of the tough regs will make me show, so I am consistent as I can remember to be to making them show. I’ve had a number of them fold rather than show, so I didn’t even have to show the winner. No info shared is an extra win for me


Right but if we demand to see the hand then we have to show anyway. I will always show if I call a river bet and they say “good call” or “you win” or “I missed” etc. bc the benefit of letting a bluffer keep bluffing is > the info. Also just maybe they missed that they made a flush or a straight or whatever. If they wanna muck, then cool.

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By the way, I really respect the opinions on here. I play at the card houses in San Antonio and I’m a bit of a nit. Say it’s a $1/$2 game, I have QQ in early position, put in the standard raise and get two/three/four callers. Flop has an A, no draw, and I’m out of position. Is my default play to check?

Should I bet more than the standard raise preflop? I don’t want my cards to be face up.

 

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To me it depends on who is in the pot with you.  If you recognize the players and understand what kind of players they are you should be able to make a decision.  If they are fairly tight players, I still lead out to see where they are at.  If they call, you're mostly likely up against it.  Check the turn if you don't improve.   

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My preflop raise is whatever is necessary to get that table to fold all but 1 or 2 other hands. You need to be watching action carefully to determine what that amount is at that point in the game. For $1/2, I usually start at $10 and adjust from there. If everyone always folds to $10, I’ll take it down to $7. If $10 tends to get 3+ callers, I’ll go to $12 or $15. Keep in mind the number may change as action increases or decreases when players come/go, go on tilt, etc. I also put a slight bump in if I’m UTG or UTG1 just because I have to go through more players. So my $10 might go to $12 UTG. Finally, the number of limpers before you makes a huge difference. If I’m not going to limp behind with them, I want to bet big enough to isolate one of them to take advantage of position. I may bump my $10 to $15 or $20 to get this done. Note, what I’m holding had ZERO impact on my preflop bet size.

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Given your tight image, it’s likely that every player put you on AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ, TT. Under what circumstances would you have checked that flop if you held AA, AK, or AQ? If the answer is “almost never” then you should almost always be betting here, by the amount you would bet with those hands. Ie, we are playing our range, not the precise hand in that range we happen to be holding. If it’s a dry flop, I’m probably going 40-50% pot. If it’s wet, perhaps 60%.

 

Should someone call, I’ll still consider my range, but not be completely tied to it going forward. Ie if they raise me on the flop I can toss it even though I never would w AA or AK.

 

Now the turn. If multiple players called me on flop, I’m probably shutting down. However, if just one calls, I still like to play my range. If (given the turn card) I’d be betting again w AA, AK, AQ, so I would here w QQ, too.

—If the board was wet on flop, it’s quite likely they’re chasing something, and will fold to turn bets if they don’t hit. Be sure to size high enough to keep I them from getting odds to call. If they assume they have 8 outs, they want you betting less than half pot, so go at least 50%.

—If the board was dry, they likely have a weak Ace. Would they have just called pre or on flop with AK? Probably not. You block AQ. They likely have AJ or less, though 2pair and sets are also a concern. Would they call a strong turn bet with AJ given what you know of them? If you think they might fold AJ, consider firing a 75% pot bet here. Otherwise, I would consider checking down.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Bookman said:

By the way, I really respect the opinions on here. I play at the card houses in San Antonio and I’m a bit of a nit. Say it’s a $1/$2 game, I have QQ in early position, put in the standard raise and get two/three/four callers. Flop has an A, no draw, and I’m out of position. Is my default play to check?

Should I bet more than the standard raise preflop? I don’t want my cards to be face up.

 

since you said San Antonio, just check. they don't fold in San Antonio.

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Just made reservations for the big 50 in May since I didn't go last year. Are cash games (2/5) harder during the WSOP, or does it balance out with the extra number of sharks/tourists? I can hold my own in Vegas, but definitely don't want a table full of pros doing their latest GTO whatever shit they're doing these days.

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Cash games everywhere in Vegas seem to be better during WSoP. You won’t have that guy that’s just playing live poker the first time, but you will have a lot of middling players who mostly just play local tourneys and are now playing cash because they have nothing else to do between wsop events. Those are good customers, imo. There are also cash sharks that don’t play any events but just play the RIO floor all day, so do be aware of them.

 

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I’ve played quite a bit of 2/5 cash during WSOP time. My advice would be to avoid the Rio. Try somewhere else that has a lot of cash games going like Aria/Bellagio/Venetian. It’s hit and miss on who might be at your table but usually obvious if they are local Vegas grinders after listening to the conversation for awhile.

 

One thing to consider is the max buy in. At Aria/Venetian it’s $1,000 and Bellagio only $500. So keep that in mind when choosing where to play if that matters to you.

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7 hours ago, Bookman said:

By the way, I really respect the opinions on here. I play at the card houses in San Antonio and I’m a bit of a nit. Say it’s a $1/$2 game, I have QQ in early position, put in the standard raise and get two/three/four callers. Flop has an A, no draw, and I’m out of position. Is my default play to check?

Should I bet more than the standard raise preflop? I don’t want my cards to be face up.

 

Like Lurch said, vary your preflop raise size by the game conditions, not by your specific holding.

Also keep in mind that playing GTO is our target if we are not playing exploitatively. Often, especially at lower stakes, playing to exploit your opponents' horrible mistakes makes much more money than doing things like calling AA on the river against an opponent who will never bet less than 2 pair because you need to call X% of your range, etc.

Every bet we make should be able to either be called by worse, or fold better out. QQ/KK specifically on ace high flops are often neither, depending on number and type of opponents, so I would often put them in a checking range. 

Against observant opponents, you need hands that you aren't check-folding in your checking range. These can be sets, top two, or even a hand like AK on a dry A high flop. I would rather bet hands like 66 or KQ on AJ4 (may get a jack or pocket pair like 88 to fold) as opposed to betting KK/QQ (ace won't fold, less usually won't call).

So if I'm opening ATo+, A8s+, 55+, KQ and get 3 calls and it comes A84, I can, say, check AA, AK, A8s, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and 99 and bet 88, all other aces, KQ, 55, 66, 77. I didn't run numbers off this, just off the top of my head. But this has us checking some strong hands so opponents can't bet us off always when we check and betting some weak ones (and also betting some that we will go to the mat with so that betting isn't a weakness tell). Honestly with a hand like AK, we aren't trying to get stacks in against most opponents. If all the money goes in on a 4 way pot and you have one pair, your opp better be a fish, or someone better have been fairly shallow.

Often, your opponents are not paying close enough attention to worry as much about this rather than just maximizing your EV. 

Against looser opponents, I'm more apt to bet QQ/KK on these boards, since they are calling wider pre, so less often have an ace, and often call with less. Against fewer opponents, I'm more apt to bet them, because less likely an ace, and people will call with middle pair, etc., more often in a 2 or 3 way pot. Against more passive opponents, I'm more apt to check, since they will often check behind and give a free card and betting tells me they have an ace, whereas with aggressive opponents, they will put me to many more hard decisions trying to push me off. 

I think betting KK or QQ in a 4 way ace flop is almost always -EV and burning money. Just too likely that someone has an ace and isn't folding it. 

Also, what po said.

Edited by TXSooner518

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played a hand, curious to see what the board thinks.

1/2  I am SB this hand sitting with $350.   

BB is a younger kid who has shown some disciplined folds, but also been caught bluffing.  hes got about $300

3 raisin asians in the middle spots, and 2 aggressive players in CO & button (both over $500).

I have KdQh, 2 MP players limp, as does the CO.  button makes it $12. 

I could just fold here, but that seems nitty.  so I call, BB calls 1 MP calls.    4 to the flop.

comes Qd-7d-3x

I really think someone, esp button will take a stab at this pot. so I check.  checks to button, who, sure enough puts out $20.   without much hesitation, I make it $50. 

BB tanks for a bit before finally calling, everyone else folds, including button. 

Td on the turn.   I check for both pot control and the obvious draw getting there.  But I do have the Kd so Im not going anywhere when he bets.

Except BB checks. 

River is the Kc.  so now I have top 2.   I check again, figuring if he had something like AK or QT T7 hes probably gonna bet $50. which I would call without too much hesitation. 

He takes a while and bets out $100. 

Is this ever a bluff in 1/2?  

Its less than half pot. 

A straight probably bets a little less.  I think any other 2 pair does a smaller value bet (or maybe even just checks it back)

I tank for a while before I act

what are the boards thoughts?  autofold? sigh call?   fuck it and get up and leave?

 

 

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Seems you’ve told him you don’t have the flush. Extra benefit of the scare card K. He’s certainly in a good spot to bluff. I could call.

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Had a banger last Friday:

Landed 33 in first position and opened with a $30 bet with $1/$2 blinds. All fold save three and flop comes JhKd8d so I fire again at $100 hoping to push out any flush chasers. One folds and the turn comes 4s, so I follow it will another $100 and get two callers. River comes 7d and I check, with the other parties following suit.

I meekly turn over 33 assuming it was all for not, but both my opponents had rags, one with A high.

Just a silly pot that gave me all kinds of momentum and I didn’t really look back, eventually cashing $1300. Not bad for four hour’s work...

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On the KC-97 hand (I don’t acknowledge the username change dammit) I prefer a bet-fold on the river to a check-call. He will check behind lots of one pair hands that he would crying call with. If he raises river we can happily fold. As played I’m almost always just clicking call there. He could be valuing less.

 

And JFC at that 33 hand. Chips please!

 

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I mean... the BALLZ of opening 33 UTG to 15 BBs, then potting into thee overs including two broadway cards and then double barreling when they call.

Massive. Steel.

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Seems you’ve told him you don’t have the flush. Extra benefit of the scare card K. He’s certainly in a good spot to bluff. I could call.

I would also just call and my gut tells me he’s sitting on AQ or trips...

How’d it end up for ya?

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50 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Pot is $170 and he bet $100, correct?

yep pot was $172-6 at that point.    $100 into it.

Edited by AUS-97HORN

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yep pot was $172-6 at that point.    $100 into it.

So, uh, MORE than half pot, yes?

Also, there was once a belief that bets over $100 often were strong while those under $100 were weak as we tend to think of 100 as significant but for some reason 95 isn’t. I haven’t looked for this in a while to see if it still holds, so YMMV

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1 minute ago, Lurch said:


So, uh, MORE than half pot, yes?

Also, there was once a belief that bets over $100 often were strong while those under $100 were weak as we tend to think of 100 as significant but for some reason 95 isn’t. I haven’t looked for this in a while to see if it still holds, so YMMV

yeah, more than half pot, you are right.   and the $100+ bet size normally means pretty strong in the 1/2 game unless everyone is sitting with $600+, which normally doesnt happen until late Friday and Sat nights. 

 

I took a good minute.   To me the bet says " I am representing the flush", since I had the Kd blocker that was my final thought to go ahead and call.  which I did.

 

 

shows the stone nuts A9dd

 

I felt really fucking stupid after that hand. because it just screamed flush, and it was such a large river bet.   but I guess most of the board thought I should call there. so maybe it wasnt such a terrible call. 

ended up playing 3 hours made another bad river call for $45 to a guy who rivered the stone nuts as well. but managed to leave up $22 more than I cam with, so I guess I can consider that a victory. 

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