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espn finally give a shit :: 1980 @ 40 :: sunday 23rd 1pm

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9 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Espn should have shown every US game in order today, or yesterday.  And Miracle as a prologue. 

There is over 20 hours of relevant footage including all of the studio time, pre-game, intermissions and post-game.  There was a 20/20 special 3 or 4 days after the closing ceremony.  The flight from Plattsburgh on a VC-137 (Boeing 707) (which was just released in 1:200 scale this past winter, and yes i have a copy).  There was the ceremony at the White House the day after Medal ceremony, aired live on the 3 major networks.  Appearances on Carson.

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I'm watching now.  Amount of the Czech game they recreated: Zero.  They gave the Sweden game about 90 seconds.  Romania, 1 crunch, 1 goal.  Norway, 1 save, 1 goal.  That's the first 4 games of the tournament covered in less than 3 minutes in a movie with a runtime of 136 minutes.  West Germany, 1 crunch, 1 goal, 40 seconds.
Next, a scene of Herb Brooks's wife getting him coffee while kids are skating around.  He got a telegram from "a lady in Texas that said "beat those commie bastards"".   This one scene is as long as the entire bandwidth given to group play.
I stand by my assessment: disneytainment packaging, not fit for purpose.


Gotta remember Miracle is about the team and how it was built with Herb as their antagonist. It wasn’t meant to be a documentary. The entire movie and story is building to the game against the Soviets. Once it’s over, the little epilogue is handled well. The Finland game was anti-climactic in many ways. There were 8500 in the building for the win over the Russians and then two days later for the Finland game. Hundreds of thousands say they were there for the Russian game; don’t think that’s true for the game against the Finns.

If not for Disney, maybe it would’ve been fun to have real-life Eruzione pop-in with an interview segment where he tells the “fucking graves” story. Go to black and just have Eruzione’s voice repeat the line, “your fucking graves.” Then pop up the dedication to recently-passed Herb Brooks.

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what's bizarre is that the wiki is wrong, you are right, and the wiki was citing sports illustrated:
https://www.si.com/vault/1980/03/03/824423/the-golden-goal-the-us-went-bonkers-when-mike-eruziones-shot-beat-vladimir-myshkin-for-the-winning-goal-as-americas-team-stunned-the-once-invincible-soviets-en-route-to-the-olympic-title
""Great as it was, there was still a little matter of the gold medal to take care of. Going into Sunday's game against Finland, it was possible for any of the four medal-round teams—the U.S., Finland, Sweden, the U.S.S.R.—to win the gold. Despite its astonishing string of upsets and its 5-0-1 record, the U.S. wasn't even assured of a bronze. But America's Team had come too far to lose.""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_Ice#Olympic_group_play
""The United States did not win the gold medal by defeating the USSR. In 1980, the medal round was a round-robin, not a single elimination format as it is today. Under Olympic rules at the time, the group game with Sweden was counted along with the medal round games versus the Soviet Union and Finland, so it was mathematically possible for the United States to finish anywhere from first to fourth.[43]""


Yes. But there was no way for the Americans to finish any worse than third after beating the Soviets and the Finns and Swedes tied. Right?

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Something else i'm not liking about Miracle which i just realized.

They did not film it in Lake Placid.  The Herb Brooks Memorial Arena certainly was available, and still stands today, pristine, unmodified, a monument to a moment in time.

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31 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

I'm watching now.  Amount of the Czech game they recreated: Zero.  They gave the Sweden game about 90 seconds.  Romania, 1 crunch, 1 goal.  Norway, 1 save, 1 goal.  That's the first 4 games of the tournament covered in less than 3 minutes in a movie with a runtime of 136 minutes.  West Germany, 1 crunch, 1 goal, 40 seconds.

Next, a scene of Herb Brooks's wife getting him coffee while kids are skating around.  He got a telegram from "a lady in Texas that said "beat those commie bastards"".   This one scene is as long as the entire bandwidth given to group play.

I stand by my assessment: disneytainment packaging, not fit for purpose.

It's a movie and a fine one, but not a documentary.   It does a great job of portraying how the team was built and Herb Brooks' calculations to get the most out of the team.

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1 minute ago, Hagbard Celine said:

We will have to choose to be in violent and vehement disagreement.

I mean compared to the ridiculousness of the game against the Soviets.

Here's the math:

Entering MEDAL ROUND

USSR 2 points

USA 1

SWE 1

FIN 0

After USA-USSR and SWE-FIN games

USA 3 points (+1 goal differential)

USSR 2 (+1)

SWE 2 (Even)

FIN 1 (-2)

So if Finland beat the Americans and the Swedes tied the Soviets you could've seen all four teams finish the medal round with 3 points and I don't know how they break that tie -- goal differential? If that's what they use, the Finns would've needed to beat the USA by three goals or more.

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6 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Gotta remember Miracle is about the team and how it was built with Herb as their antagonist. It wasn’t meant to be a documentary. The entire movie and story is building to the game against the Soviets. Once it’s over, the little epilogue is handled well. The Finland game was anti-climactic in many ways.

Hollywood knows how to do a drama and remain true to history.  The Aviator is an example.

Herb Brooks was not the players' antagonist.  He was the Protagonist of the greatest achievement in American Sports History.

The buildup to the game against the Soviets in the movie is not accurate from the perspective of the situational awareness of the protagonists.  The scene where they watch film of the Soviets from '76 brainwashes the viewer in to believing that the US facing the Soviets was indeed the "end result which was going to occur" when at the time nothing could have been further from the truth.

And so they end by glossing over the Finland game entirely, they didn't even have the Finn's uniforms correct.

They skip the "fucking graves" speech.  For the closing credits they used Dream On, from 1973.

And in the department of get off my cloud while i yell at my lawn.... the ice isn't blue.  Like it was in Lake Placid.  During that magical 2 weeks, 40 years ago.

 

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1 minute ago, Hagbard Celine said:

Hollywood knows how to do a drama and remain true to history.  The Aviator is an example.

Herb Brooks was not the players' antagonist.  He was the Protagonist of the greatest achievement in American Sports History.

The buildup to the game against the Soviets in the movie is not accurate from the perspective of the situational awareness of the protagonists.  The scene where they watch film of the Soviets from '76 brainwashes the viewer in to believing that the US facing the Soviets was indeed the "end result which was going to occur" when at the time nothing could have been further from the truth.

And so they end by glossing over the Finland game entirely, they didn't even have the Finn's uniforms correct.

They skip the "fucking graves" speech.  For the closing credits they used Dream On, from 1973.

And in the department of get off my cloud while i yell at my lawn.... the ice isn't blue.  Like it was in Lake Placid.  During that magical 2 weeks, 40 years ago.

 

The night the boys sleepwalked through the game against Norway and skated lines after, Herb was most definitely an antagonist!

It's Disney -- there's no way they were going to use "fucking graves." Glad they didn't change it a la Big Lebowski in the Corvette scene!

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6 minutes ago, C-Man said:

I mean compared to the ridiculousness of the game against the Soviets.

Here's the math:

Entering MEDAL ROUND

USSR 2 points

USA 1

SWE 1

FIN 0

After USA-USSR and SWE-FIN games

USA 3 points (+1 goal differential)

USSR 2 (+1)

SWE 2 (Even)

FIN 1 (-2)

So if Finland beat the Americans and the Swedes tied the Soviets you could've seen all four teams finish the medal round with 3 points and I don't know how they break that tie -- goal differential? If that's what they use, the Finns would've needed to beat the USA by three goals or more.

we're not in violent disagreement about you being right about the math.  i already said YOU ARE RIGHT on the math subject.

i quoted you above:

"The Finland game was anti-climactic in many ways "

No.  It was not anticlimactic in any way shape or form.  When we were down 2-1 at the second intermission, and unknown to the entire country then and now, Herb was giving his "fucking graves" pep talk, no, starting that 3rd period, it was not anti-climactic.

Did you watch it live?

Did you live it?

Have you spoken to anyone who did watch it or live it?

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5 minutes ago, C-Man said:

The night the boys sleepwalked through the game against Norway and skated lines after, Herb was most definitely an antagonist!

They skated herbies after a game in Norway.  But that night, they did not play Norway.

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11 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

They skated herbies after a game in Norway.  But that night, they did not play Norway.

Yeah, because the specific opponent was the important part of that whole sequence. 🙄

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38 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

we're not in violent disagreement about you being right about the math.  i already said YOU ARE RIGHT on the math subject.

i quoted you above:

"The Finland game was anti-climactic in many ways "

No.  It was not anticlimactic in any way shape or form.  When we were down 2-1 at the second intermission, and unknown to the entire country then and now, Herb was giving his "fucking graves" pep talk, no, starting that 3rd period, it was not anti-climactic.

Did you watch it live?

Did you live it?

Have you spoken to anyone who did watch it or live it?

Again, I was 7 when all of this was happening. I'm pretty sure I didn't stay up and watch the tape delay but caught the evening cut-ins during prime time. I did, however, see the Finland game after we got home from church. All I'm saying is that the win over the Russians is the point of the story, it was summiting Mt Everest in a sense. Losing to Finland would've been epic fuckup. I realize it clinched the gold and it was certainly more dramatic than it should've been but didn't approach the buildup and release from the game two nights earlier. Granted they had to seal the deal to complete the story.

I was asking if my math was correct and I was figuring things right.

32 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

They skated herbies after a game in Norway.  But that night, they did not play Norway.

Then that's another mistake by Miracle. I'm pretty sure Kurt Russell talks about them not giving a shit during a game against the Norwegian national team.

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5 hours ago, C-Man said:

Depending on goal difference, even with a draw against Finland, we could have not even medaled at all.

 Yeah, this isn't even close to being correct.  Finland has already lost to the USSR, and they tied Sweden on Friday.  They had to win to avoid finishing 4th.  A tie would have gotten the US at least a bronze, and a silver, given Sweden's loss to the Soviets.  

 

If we had lost to Finland, and Sweden had beaten the Soviets by a big enough margin, we would not have medaled.  

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 Yeah, this isn't even close to being correct.  Finland has already lost to the USSR, and they tied Sweden on Friday.  They had to win to avoid finishing 4th.  A tie would have gotten the US at least a bronze, and a silver, given Sweden's loss to the Soviets.  
 
If we had lost to Finland, and Sweden had beaten the Soviets by a big enough margin, we would not have medaled.  


Somehow that’s attributed to me — I think that was somebody else.

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C-Man, everyone agrees with you.  You are correct.  Stop trying to be incorrect, or claiming you are still being accused of being incorrect.  The premise is fetch.

YOU ARE CORRECT.  Back in 1980, somehow ABC believed it was possible to not medal, and SI picked that up but didn't explain the math, and then 40 years later the wiki reflects that provenance of citation.  They were all fetch.  YOU ARE CORRECT.

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That 30 for 30 about the Soviets was absolutely terrific.  It was a fascinating view into a different time. 

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2 hours ago, Hate said:

That 30 for 30 about the Soviets was absolutely terrific.  It was a fascinating view into a different time. 

I was only 7 in 1980 and never realized the Olympic dorms were actually a minimum security prison. Wtf?? 

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10 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

C-Man, everyone agrees with you.  You are correct.  Stop trying to be incorrect, or claiming you are still being accused of being incorrect.  The premise is fetch.

YOU ARE CORRECT.  Back in 1980, somehow ABC believed it was possible to not medal, and SI picked that up but didn't explain the math, and then 40 years later the wiki reflects that provenance of citation.  They were all fetch.  YOU ARE CORRECT.

No worries. I was just pointing out that my username was somehow quoted with a response I didn't make on this thread.

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On 2/23/2020 at 7:21 PM, Hagbard Celine said:

I'm watching now.  Amount of the Czech game they recreated: Zero.  They gave the Sweden game about 90 seconds.  Romania, 1 crunch, 1 goal.  Norway, 1 save, 1 goal.  That's the first 4 games of the tournament covered in less than 3 minutes in a movie with a runtime of 136 minutes.  West Germany, 1 crunch, 1 goal, 40 seconds.

Next, a scene of Herb Brooks's wife getting him coffee while kids are skating around.  He got a telegram from "a lady in Texas that said "beat those commie bastards"".   This one scene is as long as the entire bandwidth given to group play.

I stand by my assessment: disneytainment packaging, not fit for purpose.

It's not a documentary, brother.

yeah, they could have bored the fuck out of everyone, and you'd have your recap...

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