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Posted

 

There’s simply nothing to do with illegal immigrants who keep getting arrested over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Lots of second guessing, maybe the seventh time is a charm. Nothing would stick. 

Also, we are really committed to building community trust, so much so that we promise we won’t call la migra on suspected gun felons who frighten victims into leaving the country unless we ABSOLUTELY are required to by law. If we don’t have to, we won’t. That’s how committed we are to community trust.

What is the motivation here to look for ways to excuse the clearly inexcusable? If you are looking for how democracy dies, then admissions that it cannot be used to deliver even the bare minimum of functional governance, and that failure is preferable is a good place to start. I promise there were ample opportunities to jail or remove this person without violating any fundamental rights. 

Posted

That's a bit of a straw man.

The premise is that this guy is a dangerous criminal and should have been detained by ICE, else he wouldn't have committed a murder.

The first part is debatable until after he committed the murder.  Whether an ICE detainer would have stopped it is also speculation.  All of it an amazing application of hindsight bias, like most bail decisions that come under fire.

And we're not talking about whether the guy should have been deported, vel non.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

There’s simply nothing to do with illegal immigrants who keep getting arrested over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Lots of second guessing, maybe the seventh time is a charm. Nothing would stick. 

Also, we are really committed to building community trust, so much so that we promise we won’t call la migra on suspected gun felons who frighten victims into leaving the country unless we ABSOLUTELY are required to by law. If we don’t have to, we won’t. That’s how committed we are to community trust.

What is the motivation here to look for ways to excuse the clearly inexcusable? If you are looking for how democracy dies, then admissions that it cannot be used to deliver even the bare minimum of functional governance, and that failure is preferable is a good place to start. I promise there were ample opportunities to jail or remove this person without violating any fundamental rights. 

That is a complete non-sequitur to the posts your responding to. Your turn to justifying authoritarian, rights infringing policies at every turn is very disturbing.  

Edited by Dahobbs
Posted
1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

That is a complete non-sequitur to posts your responding to. Your turn to justifying authoritarian, rights offending policies at every turn is very disturbing.  

Not every turn, but when it comes to criminal types of any stripe, he's a regular Bill Otis.

Posted
9 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

That is a complete non-sequitur to the posts your responding to. Your turn to justifying authoritarian, rights infringing policies at every turn is very disturbing.  

Can you explain what right would have been violated by calling ICE and having this person removed before he killed someone instead of after? 
 

You can just put criminals in jail and deport non-authorized immigrants who keep getting arrested. It’s really fine. 

Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Can you explain what right would have been violated by calling ICE and having this person removed before he killed someone instead of after? 
 

You can just put criminals in jail and deport non-authorized immigrants who keep getting arrested. It’s really fine. 

1) holding someone without a warrant is a violation of rights. 


2) If you're a precog that can predict crime, maybe it makes sense to prejudge. We don't get to do that here in the USA. 

 

3) Whether he should have been deported before is irrelevant here.

 

4) The release here despite the requested hold isn't really the result of an immigrant friendly policy. It is the result of an administrative and cost one. ICE issues these holds and then never collects. These shifts the costs of holding someone from the federal system to state and local authorities.

 

5) More importantly, ICE holds lack any due process protections. ICE doesn't have to prove the person is an immigrant. It doesn't have to prove they could be legally deported. You could be arrested tomorrow for a traffic violation. ICE could then request you be held pending deportation. That ICE has no legal authority to do that would be irrelevant. That ICE may never both to collect you would be irrelevant. Under your distorted and authorities view of the world, you could be disappeared to prison without any consideration by judge or jury. You may recognize where that system is "justice" is practiced. But it isn't supposed to be in the USA. 

Edited by Dahobbs
Posted

It is a neat trick for DAs to constantly drop charges on an unauthorized immigrant and then claim that it’s just prejudice and authoritarianism to want someone to be in jail and/or deported. 
 



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Posted
4 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It is a neat trick for DAs to constantly drop charges on an unauthorized immigrant and then claim that it’s just prejudice and authoritarianism to want someone to be in jail and/or deported. 
 



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How on earth is that responsive? I don't give a shit if he gets deported. I don't know why they dropped the previous charges. Usually it is because, and I know this is crazy, they either didn't have sufficient evidence or the person was actually, you know, innocent. 

Again, your posts address a point no one is making. But if due process doesn't protect the worst among us, if doesn't protect anyone. Maybe you want to live in a country where anyone can be disappeared off the streets without process. I don't. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

How on earth is that responsive? I don't give a shit if he gets deported. I don't know why they dropped the previous charges. Usually it is because, and I know this is crazy, they either didn't have sufficient evidence or the person was actually, you know, innocent. 

Again, your posts address a point no one is making. But if due process doesn't protect the worst among us, if doesn't protect anyone. Maybe you want to live in a country where anyone can be disappeared off the streets without process. I don't. 

It didn’t get prosecuted bed cause the Fairfax DA regularly declines to prosecute cases for political reasons. He’s made it clear that putting people who do crimes in prison is a bigger problem than the crime they do. 

Deportation and detention by ICE is not a violation of due process. We do this regularly. We did it before Trump. We will do it after Trump. 
 

Sending something to CECOT is a violation of due process. Sending you to your home country, if you don’t have authorization to be in America, is not a violation of due process. It’s not even a criminal punishment. 
 

You seem to be under the impression that there is no happy medium between putting a bag on someone’s head and disappearing them forever and you know—- just putting people who don’t have a visa or or a green card and keep getting arrested on a plane back home. Seven strikes and you’re out maybe? 

Posted

I don't think anyone's saying this guy shouldn't have been deported.  That's not the issue here.

The tweet implies that if they's just honored the immigration hold, he wouldn't have committed murder.

So, people have offered legitimate reasons for not honoring immigration holds.

People have also questioned whether the narrative that this guy is a dangerous criminal is accurate, apart from any other bases for deportation.

And, if it's so important to deport criminals instead of making a public spectacle out of deporting otherwise innocent people, they could have sent a couple of guard people down from DC to pick this guy up.  Or a couple of ordinary ICE agents.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It didn’t get prosecuted bed cause the Fairfax DA regularly declines to prosecute cases for political reasons. He’s made it clear that putting people who do crimes in prison is a bigger problem than the crime they do. 

Deportation and detention by ICE is not a violation of due process. We do this regularly. We did it before Trump. We will do it after Trump. 
 

Sending something to CECOT is a violation of due process. Sending you to your home country, if you don’t have authorization to be in America, is not a violation of due process. It’s not even a criminal punishment. 
 

You seem to be under the impression that there is no happy medium between putting a bag on someone’s head and disappearing them forever and you know—- just putting people who don’t have a visa or or a green card and keep getting arrested on a plane back home. Seven strikes and you’re out maybe? 

Stop being dense. I don't care if he is deported. I really truly don't. But I absolutely know people should not be forced to stay in jail because ICE requested a hold. There is absolutely zero due process associated with that. Again, you could be arrested for a traffic violation tomorrow and ICE could request you be held indefinitely. Do you think that is proper? Do you think that is due process? 

Edited by Dahobbs
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Posted
1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Stop being dense. I don't care if he is deported. I really truly don't. But I absolutely know people should not be forced to stay in jail because ICE requested a hold. There is absolutely zero due process associated with that. Again, you could be arrested for a traffic violation tomorrow and ICE could request you be held indefinitely. Do you think that is proper? Do you think that is due process? 

And they don't have a great record of accuracy in their determinations of who should be held or not.

Funny thing, though.  The detention request does say its only 48 hours.  So, if that were routinely followed, this would be less offensive. https://immigrantjustice.org/for-attorneys/resources/form-1-247a-immigration-detainer-sample/

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Stop being dense. I don't care if he is deported. I really truly don't. But I absolutely know people should be forced to stay in jail because ICE requested a hold. There is absolutely zero due process associated with that. Again, you could be arrested for a traffic violation tomorrow and ICE could request you be held indefinitely. Do you think that is proper? Do you think that is due process? 

What if we just did the 48 hours that comes with a standard ICE hold, and maybe a phone call. Just try it on for size. Maybe only when the person has been arrested for a gun crime to start off. 
 

Quote

People have also questioned whether the narrative that this guy is a dangerous criminal is accurate, apart from any other bases for deportation.

Are you serious with this? He was arrested on a gun charge, his victim got scared and fled the country, and he shot someone a day after getting out of jail. 

Posted
5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

What if we just did the 48 hours that comes with a standard ICE hold, and maybe a phone call. Just try it on for size. Maybe only when the person has been arrested for a gun crime to start off. 
 

Are you serious with this? He was arrested on a gun charge, his victim got scared and fled the country, and he shot someone a day after getting out of jail. 

What if ICE went to the trouble of getting an actual warrant? Try to follow actual due process rather than just make shit up because it would be more convenient to disappear people? Why not try that? Why are you wasting time arguing a strawman (not wanting any deportations) to justify authoritarian bullshit? 

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

What if ICE went to the trouble of getting an actual warrant? Try to follow actual due process rather than just make shit up because it would be more convenient to disappear people? Why not try that? Why are you wasting time arguing a strawman (not wanting any deportations) to justify authoritarian bullshit? 

A detainer for 48 hours is not “disappearing people” and have been executed for years under all sorts of administrations. It’s not a violation of due process. Now that is a fucking straw man. 
 

You do realize that actual deportation warrants aren’t signed by judges right? 

Edited by 956 Worldwide
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

A detainer for 48 hours is not “disappearing people” and have been executed for years under all sorts of administrations. It’s not a violation of due process. Now that is a fucking straw man. 
 

You do realize that actual deportation warrants aren’t signed by judges right? 

They have always been a problem. Again, the reason the hold requests aren't a honored is because ICE rarely bothers to follow through. The holds just get reissued, leaving detainees in limbo without any due process, and leaving local authorities with the bill. Holds are an invention. They are made up. They mean absolutely nothing. If getting a warrant isn't a big deal, then why aren't you mad about ICE not doing that?  Stop being lazy and fucking think. 

Please, tell me, why can't ICE just get a warrant? Why is that a problem for you?

Edited by Dahobbs
Posted
12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

 

Please, tell me, why can't ICE just get a warrant? Why is that a problem for you?

Because I was satisfied that this tool used by presidents Bush and Obama did not turn the U.S. into an authoritarian hellscape, and I believe that a lot of the meltdowns over it are what led to a very strong reaction the other way. I have a long enough memory to remember these accusations lobbed against Obama. I believe you are confusing advocacy with reality when it comes to the rationale for not cooperating on this stuff. 

I would happily settle for “48 hours, then you get cut loose. No extensions.”  I’d happily settle for just a phone call (which many counties won’t do). 

Posted
Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

Because I was satisfied that this tool used by presidents Bush and Obama did not turn the U.S. into an authoritarian hellscape, and I believe that a lot of the meltdowns over it are what led to a very strong reaction the other way. I have a long enough memory to remember these accusations lobbed against Obama. I believe you are confusing advocacy with reality when it comes to the rationale for not cooperating on this stuff. 

I would happily settle for “48 hours, then you get cut loose. No extensions.”  I’d happily settle for just a phone call (which many counties won’t do). 

If we want to make that an official thing with all due process protections associated with it, I'd be perfectly fine with it too. But it isn't just 48 hours. And never has been. It is whatever time frame they want, however many times they want it.  Just because it has been done in the past doesn't mean it was ever proper. It is a dangerous process without any procedural safeguards. When people are being detained for months at a time based upon these hold requests, you're god damn right I'm going to sound an alarm bell. There is a simple, established procedure for someone to be legally held pending deportation. It provides some level of assurance that the government has sufficient information to justify the detention, striking that constitutional balance between protecting rights and the concerns of the state  Why don't we make the government follow that rather than let it do whatever the fuck it wants because it is easier? 

Posted

I think you are conflating the 48 hour detainer with actual ICE detention once removal proceedings are initiated. I do not see an epidemic of people held for months or weeks on ICE detainers in local jails. I think the burden needs to be on you to show some data that is actually happening with regularity.  

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