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Posted

literally just googled it

it's called a double stop because you're stopping, i.e. pushing a finger down, on two strings... vs having one or both strings open

And yeah, dunno why, but it feels like it makes more sense on fretless strings like the violin than it does on guitar for some reason.

Posted
20 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

What I like about playing thirds that way is that there's a lot of benefits. One, you're learning the relationships between notes in the scale, not just the scale.

So the intervals, right? Such that you're learning the physical fret distance between the notes and the unique sound quality that relationship has? That is definitely something i struggle with knowing quickly.

Even with the countless hours of practicing I've done over the last few years, even knowing the CAGED system inside out and how to quickly find the root notes based on the shape of the chord and neck position, I still find it really difficult to put all those puzzle pieces together into one whole picture across all six strings and down the neck. 

This double stop exercise in thirds you're talking about is really pushing me to expand that understanding of where those puzzle pieces click together. For example, let's say I'm in E and playing the C-shaped E chord with the root at the fifth fret on the B string. I know that 1-3-5 zig zag shape between the B and E string intuitively, also the little triangle 1-3-5 between the B, E, and G strings and likewise I can quickly see/play the 1-3-5 on the A, D, and G strings (with the root at the 7th fret). What I find tricky is, say, playing the root #1 on the B string and then hunting for the third without defaulting to the #3 on the E string at the 4th fret or the #3 but knowing there's another #3 on the D string at the 6th fret. I'm so used to playing those specific arpeggio shapes that it's hard for me to connect those shapes themselves, especially when it involves skipping strings. 

 

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Gourmand said:

So the intervals, right? Such that you're learning the physical fret distance between the notes and the unique sound quality that relationship has? That is definitely something i struggle with knowing quickly.

Even with the countless hours of practicing I've done over the last few years, even knowing the CAGED system inside out and how to quickly find the root notes based on the shape of the chord and neck position, I still find it really difficult to put all those puzzle pieces together into one whole picture across all six strings and down the neck. 

This double stop exercise in thirds you're talking about is really pushing me to expand that understanding of where those puzzle pieces click together. For example, let's say I'm in E and playing the C-shaped E chord with the root at the fifth fret on the B string. I know that 1-3-5 zig zag shape between the B and E string intuitively, also the little triangle 1-3-5 between the B, E, and G strings and likewise I can quickly see/play the 1-3-5 on the A, D, and G strings (with the root at the 7th fret). What I find tricky is, say, playing the root #1 on the B string and then hunting for the third without defaulting to the #3 on the E string at the 4th fret or the #3 but knowing there's another #3 on the D string at the 6th fret. I'm so used to playing those specific arpeggio shapes that it's hard for me to connect those shapes themselves, especially when it involves skipping strings. 

 

Now you're making me realize that I want to do that exercise, too. And not just on the E/B strings, but on the B/G strings, too. Maybe especially on those strings...

 

Posted
On 1/12/2025 at 12:30 PM, Gourmand said:

Ok I have questions about double stops.

First, why are they called double stops that makes literally no sense at all to me?

More importantly, is there a specific preferred method to follow for using double stops or is it an anything that works kind of deal?

For example, without really knowing the theory behind what I'm doing, I typically rely on the top two strings (the high E and B) as my easy anchor for double stops and always play them together on the same fret following the pentatonic chord shapes with the A-shape as my easy fretboard navigation point. I know the pentatonics and full scale shapes well enough to be able to move up and down the neck in the key I'm playing but my crutch wrt double stops is always playing the E/B strings together on the same fret. I'll also try to use that shape to focus on just the middle two strings as well-playing them together at the same fret-- but am not really comfortable enough with string skipping and finger picking to play, say, the only high E and D string together. Or the D and low E etc.

I recently watched a short video on this and the instruction recommended playing two notes at time to harmonize the full scale where you're playing the root and third at the same time and moving up the neck accordingly to imply the next chord in the key. So if you're playing in D and you're starting at the first position you'd start with a D on the B-string at the third fret and an F# on the E-string second fret, playing them together, then move up and play an E on the B-string and a G on the E-string (flat third) and then from there play F# on the B-string and A on the E-string, etc so that you're implying a chord progression going from D >E minor >F# minor >G >A >B minor> C#>D.

This was definitely an eye-opener for me because I didn't know about using double stops this way. So is this the way to use double stops and have I been doing it all wrong? How do you all use them? And how the heck do you make those stretches on the low-E and A strings to play just the root and third??? 

 

 

 

 

So the first part is mostly just lingo, IIRC correctly it comes from fretting two strings at once, ie. stopping them. It started on classical strings such as violin, so some of this shit is lost in the mists of time.

 

But to the bigger point, double stops are used as all sorts of intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, you name it. They can harmonize the chord you are playing over, or imply a chord, etc... You know the notes, and triad basics I believe, so I would suggest thinking about how these notes stack on top. An easy exercise on the E and B strings is to go up the A minor pentatonic scale with double stops, so C and E (first fret B string, open E string) D and G (third fret B and E string) etc., all the way up the neck. The first group is a major 3rd, then second a perfect fourth. You can listen to the different sounds they make and get ideas where to use those textures and can hear how each sounds relative to each other. Stick on an A drone track and noodle away.

 

As far as right on wrong, it's really does it sound good or not, that's it. I typically play double stops on the G and B strings. Hendrix played a lot on the A and D strings. There's no wrong answer.

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Posted
6 hours ago, G650 said:

 

So the first part is mostly just lingo, IIRC correctly it comes from fretting two strings at once, ie. stopping them. It started on classical strings such as violin, so some of this shit is lost in the mists of time.

 

But to the bigger point, double stops are used as all sorts of intervals, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, you name it. They can harmonize the chord you are playing over, or imply a chord, etc... You know the notes, and triad basics I believe, so I would suggest thinking about how these notes stack on top. An easy exercise on the E and B strings is to go up the A minor pentatonic scale with double stops, so C and E (first fret B string, open E string) D and G (third fret B and E string) etc., all the way up the neck. The first group is a major 3rd, then second a perfect fourth. You can listen to the different sounds they make and get ideas where to use those textures and can hear how each sounds relative to each other. Stick on an A drone track and noodle away.

 

As far as right on wrong, it's really does it sound good or not, that's it. I typically play double stops on the G and B strings. Hendrix played a lot on the A and D strings. There's no wrong answer.

 

Helpful post, thanks!

 

I think the exercise you recommended is exactly the one I've been working on yesterday and today. Started practicing in C (relative A minor), moved up to D, then E etc as an exercise on those top two strings to get a feel for the changing shapes of those dyads moving up the fretboard to play the major scale. So, for the C major example, playing only the root and third notes on the E and B strings up the fretboard would give you the full harmonized major scale  of C > D minor > E minor > F > G > A minor > B > C.

This has been one of those small game-changer light bulb moments for me because I only played the double stops that were easy and comfortable and sounded good without any consideration of the intervals or what it was I was playing. All based in the boxy shapes. My crutch is typically playing linear double stops built from the pentatonic boxes like this....

image.png.4b586a53540052df564a762108ece26f.png

I'll also focus on the D and G strings for pattern 2 and play those together as well. (Are all these perfect fourths?)

What I'm not doing enough of is string skipping or hitting on the 1s and 3s, it's all just basically playing chord chunks laid out right next to each other because they're easy to find and play together. The problem is that although my playing sounds like I know how to navigate the fretboard in a key and play the pentatonics and arpeggios and the full major/minor scale, my double stops are repetitive and formulaic. They fit structurally and sound good, but.....kinda meh after a while?

Is the issue playing the same interval without changing it up enough? Seems like all I'm doing when playing those double stops is taking little pieces of the pentatonic boxes, and I'm nor really sure that's saying much wrt playing guitar.

At least this exercise is forcing me to expand that comfort zone.

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Posted
4 hours ago, Gourmand said:

Is the issue playing the same interval without changing it up enough?

 

I think you will find that each interval has it's own flavor so to speak, and you will favor ones that fit your mood the more you play them.

 

If you haven't definitely put some work into hybrid picking as well, helps immensely for moving around more.

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Posted
On 1/12/2025 at 11:30 AM, Gourmand said:

More importantly, is there a specific preferred method to follow for using double stops or is it an anything that works kind of deal?

My advice is to fight hard against the instinct that there is any “preferred” or “right” way to do anything on guitar. There are certain things like form or picking patterns where it might be helpful to learn a difficult approach that makes things easier long-term.

But in terms of the notes you play, in what order, etc.? Play around. Find what sounds good. Be creative. The best guitarists took existing forms and added their own unique twists, with amazing results. 

 

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  • 5 months later...
Posted
On 11/25/2024 at 5:54 AM, tbone_ said:

I disagree with your point about having to play more precisely with the dirt/gain up. That shit will cover up all kinds of sloppiness.

You wanna get precise? Plug a Tele straight in to clean fender tube amp and practice that way.

 

On 12/4/2024 at 8:35 AM, sidis said:

i don't know if this is just your regularly scheduled insane rimbo stuff or if you are just drunk but wtf are you talking about? extremely high gain/distortion means you can basically just do whatever the fuck you want to the guitar including just slapping your dick against the neck and it is just going to sound like you're rocking out. things like fucked up barre chords and more exotic chords sound a thousand times "better" in that scenario then with a clean signal chain or an acoustic.

Ok...I have no idea why I responded to these like a complete raging asshole. 

Sorry about that. I'm looking at my responses now and thinking, "What the fuck was I so mad about?"

BUT.......

I saw this interview snippet with EVH and  it reminded me of this... because I think he's talking about what I was trying to describe.

Point I was trying to make then (with a heaping mound of unwarranted assholeishness)... and I think what Ed's talking about here... is that direct into the amp, high gain sound, every time a finger on your left hand brushes the wrong string, every failure to palm mute, is going to make an absolute mess of whatever you're trying to play. 

For me in particular, since I'm used to playing bass clef strings that need a lot more effort to play, and even on my acoustic guitar with its broad neck, my tendency in the left hand on the electric guitar is to smack around the other strings when I play. My hands are trained to pull-off and hammer-on with every note rather violently (taught explicitly to do so by cello teachers - the string doesn't speak fast enough without it) ... and that doesn't work at all on a narrow-necked electric at high gain.

As for my right hand, palm muting is an entirely new technique I'm having to learn. Doesn't matter so much on a clean channel; critical at metal gain levels so that you don't end up recording slop.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Doesn't matter so much on a clean channel

 

I think this is where the disconnect is. It's absolutely critical on clean playing, more than anything. You will hear every little issue from sting noise to the different velocity on each string. Play an arpeggio with a clean tone and see if all the notes are the same volume. I would almost guarantee they aren't. 

As far as palm muting goes I've found, and lots of really really good players have noted over the years, it's a very instinctual thing , you will gravitate towards doing it almost subconsciously. Your palm on the bass strings, your fingertips on the little ones will start to fall in place.

 

What Ed is talking about though is his philosophy with his rig though, which is a totally separate subject. Being a guy who straight piped his guitars into 100 watt Marshalls for ages, I agree with his take in general. His wasn't nearly as out of control as Billy Gibbons in the Eliminator era. It was so uncontrollable the had to record one phrase at a time.

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, G650 said:

I think this is where the disconnect is. It's absolutely critical on clean playing, more than anything. You will hear every little issue from sting noise to the different velocity on each string. Play an arpeggio with a clean tone and see if all the notes are the same volume. I would almost guarantee they aren't. 

I see what you're saying here. Thing is, that's not a new skill for me. I have plenty of control over volume and expression with my right hand. I've gained that from decades of bass fingering and plucking, cello bowing/plucking/col legno, etc. Including palm muting on the bass.

What I lack on the right hand is:

1. A really good feel for the gap between strings, since they're so much closer; hitting more strings than I intended is exaggerated at gain.

Like, if you barely brush the wrong string with the pick without gain, it's not really going to be audible if you're hitting the strings you intend more forcefully. At high gain, every little tiny mistake like that is going to be as loud as the things you meant to do -- the result of dynamic compression at those levels.

2. Palm muting techniques at high gain are really a whole different technique from what I do on the bass or with a clean guitar.

Also, more to the point, palm muting's not a habit I want to gravitate to instinctually. It's a capability I want to deliberately train. That's what exercises are for; training your hands into flexibility and skills that you can use, or not use, at will.

 

Edited by Rimbo
Posted
42 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Like, if you barely brush the wrong string with the pick without gain, it's not really going to be audible if you're hitting the strings you intend more forcefully. 

 

It really is, but you aren't going to be persuaded otherwise, so carry on. 

 

43 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Also, more to the point, palm muting's not a habit I want to gravitate to instinctually

 

What I'm saying is that is how it will develop whether you like it or not. You obviously can and should practice it, but it's a subconscious skill your body starts doing.

Posted
9 minutes ago, G650 said:

It really is, but so carry on. 

OK, "you aren't going to be persuaded otherwise" is just being rude. Which given my asshole response earlier is warranted, OK, but I'm trying to have an actual honest conversation here.

Secondly, "Quieter things get relatively louder when you have tons of dynamic compression" -- clean-channel vs high-gain -- is literally the definition of what dynamic compression does. You're basically saying here that dynamic compression doesn't do ... the thing that dynamic compression does.

15 minutes ago, G650 said:

What I'm saying is that is how it will develop whether you like it or not. You obviously can and should practice it, but it's a subconscious skill your body starts doing

I guess if you have a lifetime to learn an instrument AND no intention of being professional, "just let it happen" is fine. But I don't have enough hours available in the day or years in my life to wait for a skill to subconsciously appear; I'm going to steal and develop every skill-building exercise I can get my hands on, find the ones that are most efficient, and dedicate the beginning of my practice sessions to doing those things, so that I can make the path from being shitty to being adequate as short as humanly possible.

Posted
On 7/10/2025 at 8:44 PM, Rimbo said:

OK, "you aren't going to be persuaded otherwise" is just being rude. Which given my asshole response earlier is warranted, OK, but I'm trying to have an actual honest conversation here.

Secondly, "Quieter things get relatively louder when you have tons of dynamic compression" -- clean-channel vs high-gain -- is literally the definition of what dynamic compression does. You're basically saying here that dynamic compression doesn't do ... the thing that dynamic compression does.

I guess if you have a lifetime to learn an instrument AND no intention of being professional, "just let it happen" is fine. But I don't have enough hours available in the day or years in my life to wait for a skill to subconsciously appear; I'm going to steal and develop every skill-building exercise I can get my hands on, find the ones that are most efficient, and dedicate the beginning of my practice sessions to doing those things, so that I can make the path from being shitty to being adequate as short as humanly possible.

 

Well, I wasn't intending to be rude, just an observation that it was probably fruitless to continue on that path. I understand what you are saying, but you aren't understanding what I am saying. The compression from high gain is literally exactly what I am talking about. It erases all the mistakes. You are just talking about the mishit or ghost notes, I'm talking about everything else.

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Posted
On 7/10/2025 at 7:44 PM, Rimbo said:

OK, "you aren't going to be persuaded otherwise" is just being rude. Which given my asshole response earlier is warranted, OK, but I'm trying to have an actual honest conversation here.

Secondly, "Quieter things get relatively louder when you have tons of dynamic compression" -- clean-channel vs high-gain -- is literally the definition of what dynamic compression does. You're basically saying here that dynamic compression doesn't do ... the thing that dynamic compression does.

I guess if you have a lifetime to learn an instrument AND no intention of being professional, "just let it happen" is fine. But I don't have enough hours available in the day or years in my life to wait for a skill to subconsciously appear; I'm going to steal and develop every skill-building exercise I can get my hands on, find the ones that are most efficient, and dedicate the beginning of my practice sessions to doing those things, so that I can make the path from being shitty to being adequate as short as humanly possible.

You are being rude.

There are times where listening to people with more experience is important.  Try it.

Realize that you are attempting to fast track something that people have worked years to develop and you are being extremely impatient.

We all get what you are saying.  I've been a musician since I was a kid and am a beginning guitarist.  Listen to these guys.  What you're describing is shit musicianship.

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Posted
1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

If you feel like being brave; play rhythm with the tele bridge 

 

Im Not No Way GIF

 

Somewhat related, I am like a little Keith Richards in that I pick way up by the neck, but I've been working on some twang lately with a Strat and picking back by the bridge for single note lines. Turns out that slap back is a bigger part of that sound than I really ever gave credit for. I added a little in the monitors and it was like "oh yeah, there it is."

Posted

Depends on what I’m playing, but yeah up by the neck can be glorious, especially on acoustic.

I’m always surprised at how many guitarists I talk to that don’t know about getting different tones by picking at different locations. Ok, I don’t talk to that many about it, but when it does come up I’m surprised at how often I hear they didn’t know that. Was sort of always obvious to me.

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Posted

I sort of throw this idea in the general category of dynamics. We try to check out as many acoustic players as we can. Of course, some can really play, but it’s interesting to me how many I see playing out that really just have no concept of dynamics at all.

Some guy who apparently played in the Temptations at one point came up to us after a show and all he said was “man, you have a great right hand”. Pretty close to my favorite thing anyone has ever said to me.

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