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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, chainsaw said:

Her position is responsible, if you ask me. Most people have no idea what's actually being promised here, so taking a moment to get everyone on the same page and eliminate wiggle room for weasels to weasel out, because in this economy you better believe every opportunity for people to lie, overpromise, underdeliver, and overcharge will result in the taxpayers being lied to, overpromised to, underdelivered to, and overcharged, is a good and smart thing to do. Besides, even in the worst case scenario they'll go to Austin, which (A) if the owners probably want to do anyway, Project Marvel wasn't going to stop 'em, and (B) definitely beats what happened to Oakland and Seattle.

It's not she wants concessions with funds that aren't supposed to go to what she wants. She's using shit like SNAP/TANF to hide. The bond they have with the state ends next year and then the money will go to other parts of the state. She's literally fucking it. Name another professional organization that offers over a billion for not only the arena but all the other stuff that marvel includes downtown. She's railroading the project because she wants it to be her way....

Edited by BurntOrange&White
Posted

San Antonio is the 7th largest city in the US and is only home to ONE PRO SPORTS TEAM in the top 7. Spurs have brought in billions to SA over the years and losing them would be detrimental to San Antonio's economy.

 

1 New York: Yankees, Mets, Giants, Jets, Rangers, Islanders, Knicks, Brooklyn, NYFC
2 Los Angeles: Rams, Chargers, Dodgers, Lakers, Clippers, Galaxy, Ducks, Sparks, Angels
3 Chicago: Bears, Cubs, White Sox, Blackhawks, Bulls, Sky, Fire FC
4 Houston: Astros, Texans, Rockets, Dynamo
5 Phoenix: Cardinals, Diamondbacks, Mercury, Suns
6 Philly: Eagles, Phillies, 76ers, Flyers
7 San Antonio: Spurs
8 San Diego: Padres, SDFC - SA doesn't have the tourism factor and beaches of San Diego. Alamo only goes so far and so does riverwalk.
9 Dallas: Cowboys, Rangers, Stars, Mavericks, FC Dallas, Wings
10 Jacksonville: Jaguars

Posted
13 hours ago, BurntOrange&White said:

It's not she wants concessions with funds that aren't supposed to go to what she wants. She's using shit like SNAP/TANF to hide. The bond they have with the state ends next year and then the money will go to other parts of the state. She's literally fucking it. Name another professional organization that offers over a billion for not only the arena but all the other stuff that marvel includes downtown. She's railroading the project because she wants it to be her way....

This is kind of my point. Nobody actually understands the deal, except the people who stand to benefit from it. The case needs to be made to the taxpayers, and it can't just be a team relocation threat.

Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This is kind of my point. Nobody actually understands the deal, except the people who stand to benefit from it. The case needs to be made to the taxpayers, and it can't just be a team relocation threat.

Everyone but her seems to understand the deal. This is costing the tax payers next to nothing. San Antonio stands to lose more if they don't get it done than they do if they get it done. She wants to try and use money for this project for shit like homeless and she also now wants part of all new ticket sales, ocncessions, and etc moving forward.  Relocation is a serious threat especially with how much investment guys are in the ownership circle. This isn't just about stadium, it's about a complete renovation of downtown creating more things to do, so lets be clear here. Spurs are putting up 1 billion + going to cover overages of project, the only thing standing in their way is a dumbass new mayor.

 

This deal the spurs are offering plus the taxes on hotel and such in the special bond, county taxes, etc are more than enough of a fair deal compared to 99% of other stadium projects out there. 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
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Posted (edited)

I'm skeptical. The Frost Bank Center fka SBC Center project was an abject failure that didn't do shit for the area when it was built. Anyone can say anything in a powerpoint because there's no accountability when their projections fail. I would love an arena downtown, but if you fuck it up it will have generational consequences, like the Albatrossdome. Most concerning to me is that we don't even know the full price tag of the project. An arena is one thing, but this has turned into, in your words:

Quote

a complete renovation of downtown

I don't trust billionaires at all. If they are willing to offer up this much money to entice the city to do something, they have something cooked up and I've never seen this movie end with the taxpayers not getting fucked.

Edited by chainsaw
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I'm skeptical. The Frost Bank Center fka SBC Center project was an abject failure that didn't do shit for the area when it was built. Anyone can say anything in a powerpoint because there's no accountability when their projections fail. I would love an arena downtown, but if you fuck it up it will have generational consequences, like the Albatrossdome. Most concerning to me is that we don't even know the full price tag of the project. An arena is one thing, but this has turned into, in your words:

I don't trust billionaires at all. If they are willing to offer up this much money to entice the city to do something, they have something cooked up and I've never seen this movie end with the taxpayers not getting fucked.

Ofc that project was going to be a failure because planning for it at the time was shit and it was thrown together last minute at a shit location due to the spurs threatening to leave. People don't like going out there, businesses weren't going to build out there especially bars and restaurants. This project includes restaurants, bars, hotels, complete remodel of alamodome(which desperately needs it). This project puts the arena in walking distance of most major tourist spots in San Antonio creating a downtown hub of entertainment. It also revamps all the surround roads etc as well as moving the SAWS chiller plant to a better location and increasing it to cool and heat more downtown buildings. 

 

Frost center is nearing 30 years in age and that's the lifespan of most major stadiums now days for teams. 

 

Alamodome was paid off quickly(within 18 months of opening) and has been straight profit for the city since it was created. It was built to try and lure an NFL team, which will never happen. 

 

You really aren't going to trust them when Spurs pack up and head to Austin or Las Vegas. This is more than just their arena it's a whole downtown restructure project. Also if Spurs leave San Antonio they will NEVER get another pro sports team again and this project failure would be the reason. If you can't support the 1 fucking team your town has you won't support future team or teams. 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
Posted

I don't want the Spurs to leave, but we should know what we're getting into before we get into it. That's the only objection I have, and from what I've read, that's GOJ's position too. It's reasonable. She's going to lose a lot of political capital and city council is probably going to disregard her, but she's not out of line for asking for an independent analysis that isn't a total clown show.

Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I don't want the Spurs to leave, but we should know what we're getting into before we get into it. That's the only objection I have, and from what I've read, that's GOJ's position too. It's reasonable. She's going to lose a lot of political capital and city council is probably going to disregard her, but she's not out of line for asking for an independent analysis that isn't a total clown show.

According to one of the city councilmen those reports take months to get back and cost anywhere from 50k to 100k+. So not only is she going to cost the tax payers money with that report she's sabotaging the plans that have been in the works for over a year. She's railroading and trying to stall the vote for tourist tax this November. 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
Posted

Coincidentally I had dinner the other night with a big group including someone who is on staff for a city councilman and my buddy who works for the Spurs. They were both discussing how bad she is. But this is going to get done. She doesn't have the juice to stop it. One of the big issues is that the county already jumped in to cover $300 million. So they're on board and it makes it more difficult for her. It's just a matter of time before this goes through. 

Having anything remotely to do with the Spurs potentially leaving San Antonio would be political suicide. She's going to have a come to jesus moment very soon, no matter how smart and powerful she thinks she is.

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I would love an arena downtown, but if you fuck it up it will have generational consequences, like the Albatrossdome.

Are you implying that the Alamodome was a failure? Final fours and concerts and bowl games and conventions not to mention the Spurs playing there for a few years... that thing was a bargain. They paid something like $185 million for it and has returned close to $4 billion in economic impact.

Now, they never should have put the new Spurs arena on the east side. That was a major fuck up. But this city NEEDS to reinvest in downtown or its going to take a turn for the worse. We have had one of the most unique and desirable downtowns for generations, but it's kinda going to shit. The idea of having dinner or a few drinks on the river before/after a Spurs game would be huge for the revitalization of downtown and getting locals down there. Not to mention that expanding the convention center would let them bring in larger conventions.

Also on the basketball side of things... my friend told me that he doesn't envision Pop and RC having too much to do with the details of the team going forward. Don't get me wrong, they are still going to be around and involved, but it is apparently nearly completely Brian Wright and Mitch Johnson's show now, hopefully to have an RC/Pop-like run for the next 15 years.

 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Coincidentally I had dinner the other night with a big group including someone who is on staff for a city councilman and my buddy who works for the Spurs. They were both discussing how bad she is. But this is going to get done. She doesn't have the juice to stop it. One of the big issues is that the county already jumped in to cover $300 million. So they're on board and it makes it more difficult for her. It's just a matter of time before this goes through. 

Having anything remotely to do with the Spurs potentially leaving San Antonio would be political suicide. She's going to have a come to jesus moment very soon, no matter how smart and powerful she thinks she is.

Are you implying that the Alamodome was a failure? Final fours and concerts and bowl games and conventions not to mention the Spurs playing there for a few years... that thing was a bargain. They paid something like $185 million for it and has returned close to $4 billion in economic impact.

Now, they never should have put the new Spurs arena on the east side. That was a major fuck up. But this city NEEDS to reinvest in downtown or its going to take a turn for the worse. We have had one of the most unique and desirable downtowns for generations, but it's kinda going to shit. The idea of having dinner or a few drinks on the river before/after a Spurs game would be huge for the revitalization of downtown and getting locals down there. Not to mention that expanding the convention center would let them bring in larger conventions.

Also on the basketball side of things... my friend told me that he doesn't envision Pop and RC having too much to do with the details of the team going forward. Don't get me wrong, they are still going to be around and involved, but it is apparently nearly completely Brian Wright and Mitch Johnson's show now, hopefully to have an RC/Pop-like run for the next 15 years.

 

Alamodome was paid off in less than 2 years, straight profit. It's arguably a very successful venture. Here is the former mayor on this.

 

 

Posted
Just now, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Coincidentally I had dinner the other night with a big group including someone who is on staff for a city councilman and my buddy who works for the Spurs. They were both discussing how bad she is. But this is going to get done. She doesn't have the juice to stop it. One of the big issues is that the county already jumped in to cover $300 million. So they're on board and it makes it more difficult for her. It's just a matter of time before this goes through. 

Having anything remotely to do with the Spurs potentially leaving San Antonio would be political suicide. She's going to have a come to jesus moment very soon, no matter how smart and powerful she thinks she is.

Are you implying that the Alamodome was a failure? Final fours and concerts and bowl games and conventions not to mention the Spurs playing there for a few years... that thing was a bargain. They paid something like $185 million for it and has returned close to $4 billion in economic impact.

Now, they never should have put the new Spurs arena on the east side. That was a major fuck up. But this city NEEDS to reinvest in downtown or its going to take a turn for the worse. We have had one of the most unique and desirable downtowns for generations, but it's kinda going to shit. The idea of having dinner or a few drinks on the river before/after a Spurs game would be huge for the revitalization of downtown and getting locals down there. Not to mention that expanding the convention center would let them bring in larger conventions.

Also on the basketball side of things... my friend told me that he doesn't envision Pop and RC having too much to do with the details of the team going forward. Don't get me wrong, they are still going to be around and involved, but it is apparently nearly completely Brian Wright and Mitch Johnson's show now, hopefully to have an RC/Pop-like run for the next 15 years.

 

You're 100% correct here. This would be political suicide, and she is not doing herself any favors. Which is exactly why I'm not going to dismiss her concerns as out of hand. She's probably smart enough that this deal's already gonna be done, and she wants to be able to say I Told You So when shit hits the fan, which she's expecting will happen.

The Alamodome gets events and has a bowl game, but you can't tell me the area around it has developed well.

Posted
Just now, chainsaw said:

You're 100% correct here. This would be political suicide, and she is not doing herself any favors. Which is exactly why I'm not going to dismiss her concerns as out of hand. She's probably smart enough that this deal's already gonna be done, and she wants to be able to say I Told You So when shit hits the fan, which she's expecting will happen.

The Alamodome gets events and has a bowl game, but you can't tell me the area around it has developed well.

From what I've been told, she thinks she is a lot smarter than she is. 

With regard to the area around the dome... Project Marvel is supposed to connect all that. And there has been a a lot more development near the Alamodome than you are giving credit for. It's not necessarily because of the Alamodome, but it doesn't hurt that it's there. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

From what I've been told, she thinks she is a lot smarter than she is. 

With regard to the area around the dome... Project Marvel is supposed to connect all that. And there has been a a lot more development near the Alamodome than you are giving credit for. It's not necessarily because of the Alamodome, but it doesn't hurt that it's there. 

That stretch of the corridor from The Pearl area to the Riverwalk kind of reminds me of 35 in Austin about 10-15 years ago where everything was west of 35 but now days it's extended across to the east side. 

Posted

It took a long time for the gentrification bug to bite around there. For a long time it was not somewhere you'd want to be at night. We can debate how much the dilapidated arena contributed to that. Before UTSA football, it really seemed to serve no purpose once the Spurs left. Even back then it wasn't ready for the NFL. Might need more than a facelift, but to be honest I haven't looked too deeply into what Project Marvel would do for it. The most common thing to happen is the prettier, shinier, bigger, better stadium gets built nextdoor and the old one gets demolished.

Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

It took a long time for the gentrification bug to bite around there. For a long time it was not somewhere you'd want to be at night. We can debate how much the dilapidated arena contributed to that. Before UTSA football, it really seemed to serve no purpose once the Spurs left. Even back then it wasn't ready for the NFL. Might need more than a facelift, but to be honest I haven't looked too deeply into what Project Marvel would do for it. The most common thing to happen is the prettier, shinier, bigger, better stadium gets built nextdoor and the old one gets demolished.

You haven't looked into this that deep but you're here yapping about it? Good fucking lord. Also below is part of Project Marvel as well.

 

https://www.tpr.org/government-politics/2025-07-29/project-marvel-plans-include-renovating-former-courthouse-into-live-events-venue-but-local-artists-are-concerned

 

 

 

 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
Posted
2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I'm talking about the Alamodome, not the overall project. What specific Alamodome renovations are being promised?

Complete gutting of the interior, new roof, etc. 

 

it would be near the end of the project as this is a 10-15 year project. The walkover of 37 would also be near the end. 
 

1 Henry B Gonzales renovation improvemebt

 2 Spurs arena

3 courthouse remodel

4/5 walkover/alamodome

Posted
Just now, BurntOrange&White said:

Because it’s been straight profit and would be more expensive to do?

Will any of the proposed renovations put the city in a position to get an NFL team? I really feel like the shortcomings are structural.

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