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  • Author
1 hour ago, Captainant said:

I'm not "blaming" I'm observing objective reality. Getting out competed is capitalism at work, and it turns out that fratbro buddies can't help you skip the line like their daddies did.

See this is where we disagree. You aren’t being outcompeted at capitalism- the opportunity to do that is what you missed. The fratbro buddies, as it were, are in a stronger position now than they were before, in part by including affluent and well connected people beyond white males. But it’s MUCH harder to get there without affluence and connections than it used to be.

1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Except the auto industry wasn't solely responsible for economic growth in the 60s, and they weren't driving up prices for consumers across the board (electric, water, and commodity) with their reckless debt spending

That’s a topic for another thread, and I wouldn’t limit it to the auto industry but the industrial oligopolies of the post-war period very often did exactly that. What separates those scandals from their modern analogues is that when they were discovered people sometimes went to prison.

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  • To set my POV, I'm an elder millenial (b. 1981) white woman with a journalism degree who has exclusively worked in big tech marketing and PR my entire career. I understand what Bozo is getting at re:

  • I won't say there's nothing to his point -- there is.  I think our society is failing males across the board in numerous ways, so white males are included.  But let's look at the statistical basis for

  • Pato del Muerto
    Pato del Muerto

    Still deciding whether or not to read the piece.  But from my perspective, if previous opportunities were only or primarily afforded to white males, and those opportunities suddenly (or even gradually

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  • Author
9 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Nearly everyone else in the thread has interpreted your posts as saying essentially that.

I must have missed everyone else accusing me of race-baiting or promoting race-baiting as a political strategy.

10 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I must have missed everyone else accusing me of race-baiting or promoting race-baiting as a political strategy.

I mean, before you clarified it seemed like you were arguing "we need to play along with their grievances to get them to listen to us" given that's the author's thesis. In another context, he would be saying we should take Jan6'ers seriously because enough of them believed the lie and well shucks we should just accept it

I work in engineering, and it's a completely different world than journalism and entertainment. I will say that I have put out a few job postings in rural Kansas, where most people don't really want to live, looking for engineers in some cases and people with agricultural backgrounds in others, and we don't get many white male applicants at all, despite those fields being dominated by white males. These are entry-level positions and applicants are typically gen z. The male applicants that we do get are way less organized than their female counterparts and they don't interview as well.

12 minutes ago, Captainant said:

I mean, before you clarified it seemed like you were arguing "we need to play along with their grievances to get them to listen to us" given that's the author's thesis.

I’m not sure there is more action to be taken here than just acknowledgement (that there are losers in our efforts to promote diversity). I think the appeal of his argument to people like me is that too many progressives tend to have a real blind spot, almost an arrogance, about the utilitarian merits of their policy preferences and then are wildly confused when the electorate picks candidates opposed to them. “What’s wrong with you idiots? Quit voting against your self-interest!!!”

What @Bozo_Casanova has repeated more than once is that those policies may indeed be good overall, but it doesn’t FEEL like that if the you’re on the losing end and those people are going to vote against you AND tell their friends.

10 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

This entire thread is basically this conversation:

Us: "We should say something like, 'yes you got screwed, but it wasn't because of minorities, it was by billionaire Republicans."

You: "No, you can't tell them that they weren't screwed over because of minorities! You have to flatter their false beliefs that they were screwed over because of minorities, but then tell them 'but maybe also it was billionaire Republicans.'"

Exactly! @Bozo_Casanova has a serious blindspot here. I am actually quite astonished that he doesn't see what is saying, and even more astonished that he doesn't see why I would be opposed to it.

  • Author
9 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Exactly! @Bozo_Casanova has a serious blindspot here. I am actually quite astonished that he doesn't see what is saying, and even more astonished that he doesn't see why I would be opposed to it.

For the the record: I don’t even countenance race baiting, let alone validate it or promote it.

There’s a huge distinction between that acknowledging someone has problems and flattering their false and racist beliefs about the causes of their problems. In my opinion I was pretty clearly doing the former.

If I wasn’t communicating clearly that’s on me, and if you read what I wrote in bad faith that’s on you.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova

The problem with an essay like this is that this author was directly told that he didn't get a major job because he's a white male. Maybe that's also why he can't get any other job or maybe it's not, but anyone with eyeballs can clearly see that race matters in that industry and it probably always will.

It's not like that for the rest of us. DEI might have helped some companies increase the size of their hiring pool, but if you aren't getting a job, you weren't the best applicant. This guy's story is just a coping mechanism for people who haven't been successful to self-victimize instead of self-improve.

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

For the the record: I don’t even countenance race baiting, let alone validate it or promote it.

There’s a huge distinction between that acknowledging someone has problems and flattering their false and racist beliefs about the causes of their problems. In my opinion I was pretty clearly doing the former.

If I wasn’t communicating clearly that’s on me, and if you read what I wrote in bad faith that’s on you.

I'd say the last 11 pages makes it pretty clear which is the case.

37 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'd say the last 11 pages makes it pretty clear which is the case.

Yeah he was doing the Anastasis. Dancing around what he meant for plausible deniability. For 11 pages. But that's on me for "reading in bad faith".

4 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

For the the record: I don’t even countenance race baiting, let alone validate it or promote it.

There’s a huge distinction between that acknowledging someone has problems and flattering their false and racist beliefs about the causes of their problems. In my opinion I was pretty clearly doing the former.

You weren't pretty clearly doing anything. You wouldn't even give a straight answer to anyone.

you know, it's a real miracle that young white men have managed to scrape by in this world for millenia considering how delicate their dominance apparently was.

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  • Author

Clear enough?

On 12/21/2025 at 5:59 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

Minorities are not the ones pushing them away. White progressives are. 

 

Also very telling that so much of the hysterical reaction to all this devolved to “white males” rather than “millennial males” ans also “white millennial males” which is what it was about .

Edited by Bozo_Casanova

49 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Clear enough?

Also very telling that so much of the hysterical reaction to all this devolved to “white males” rather than “millennial males” ans also “white millennial males” which is what it was about .

Honestly, no. You're leaving a second half to that statement up for implication. WHY are progressives driving them away? Per the author you started this thread with, it's because they're helping minorities over whites so down with both of them.

  • Author
1 hour ago, Captainant said:

Honestly, no. You're leaving a second half to that statement up for implication. WHY are progressives driving them away? Per the author you started this thread with, it's because they're helping minorities over whites so down with both of them.

I'm not going to speak for the Author, because you can read his piece or not, but I said why progressives have driven me away:

On 12/21/2025 at 12:37 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

I think I have made very clear for several years that I feel very alienated from the progressive movement. There are many reasons, but they all revolve around the distance progressives put between themselves and the objects of their concern and the othering of the people who would benefit. 
If the progressive movement and democratic politics were still rooted in economic solidarity with the majority of the adult working population, they would work and speak in ways that finds common cause with any person getting shafted. But it doesn’t, so they don’t. This thread is replete with examples. 

The only thing I could have said to make it more clear in the above is to correct my subject-verb agreement by replacing "doesn't" with "isn't." Happy to offer color commentary or examples of what I'm talking about above, but I'm not sure what the point would be, because:

On 12/20/2025 at 4:33 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

Some people have, an I suspected most of the reaction would be recitations of the affluent white progressive catechism, which is what I got.

So I was expecting pushback, which is what I hoped I would get. I wasn't expecting was to be explicitly accused of race-baiting, which after 20+ years of being on the same boards with some of these people and knowing some of them personally (not you, not @Thatguy) is all kinds of fucked up.

  • Author
On 12/20/2025 at 5:53 PM, Bozo_Casanova said:

If you are asking what I think- I don’t think “white males” get shafted at the population level.
I think that individual white males under about 45 who do not have money or connections or good luck get shafted sometimes, and when they do, progressives either don’t care or blame them.

@Captainant sorry, left this one out.

I swear I"ve tried to read the last few pages of this thread, to actually understand where BC is coming from, and I just can't seem to get there.

"If the progressive movement and democratic politics were still rooted in economic solidarity with the majority of the adult working population, they would work and speak in ways that finds common cause with any person getting shafted. But it doesn’t, so they don’t. This thread is replete with examples. " What does this word salad even mean?

It sounds like you're upset that Progressives haven't done enough to ... what ... give white folks the jobs they used to get, because black folks weren't even considered? Or maybe not just GIVE you the job, but tell you you're a strong boy and a good boy and that everything is still going to be ok? And because you got your feelings hurt (and because you weren't actually the strongest candidate for that job), you voted for the fall of democracy?

Not to keep beating this dead horse, but I can't stop thinking about it ...

"... democratic politics were still rooted in economic solidarity with the majority of the adult working population." It sounds like you're asking the Democratic party to be all things to all aggrieved persons. Which, aside from being literally impossible, because if that person got the job then by definition you DIDN'T get that job ... WE'RE TRYING.

The Green New Deal, The CHIPS act, etc ... those are JOBS programs. Re-skilling is a critical component of making sure that EVERYONE has the skills they need to work in the types of jobs that the American economy is uniquely suited for (well, WAS uniquely suited for).
H1B visas, DREAMers, student visas ... these are economic improvement programs. You know what really smart fucking people DO after they're educated? They start companies, which provide JOBS. You know what immigrants do, after getting stability, food security, and an education? They go into public service, they become firefighters, soldiers, entrepreneurs. It really helps the American economy if they start their companies HERE, or if they serve in the military HERE.

Social Security. SNAP. FEMA. the CDC. The Department of Education ... these are programs that help ensure that if you come across some hardship in your life (like, maybe you didn't get that job), that you don't fall through the cracks and become homeless. That you know how to learn so you can participate in a re-skill program. That help make it so you don't get sick. That if your house is hit by a hurricane, you don't lose everything you own including your right to exist on that land.

If you're an aggrieved person, the ONLY party that gives a fuck about you is the Progressive one. And you're pissed because it's not doing enough to give you your old shitty job back, in ADVERTISING? A dead medium?

Edited by capnamerca

  • Author

@capnamerca chanting the litany of policies-that-are-good-for-you is how Democrats found themselves out of power despite a significant polling advantage in virtually every major policy area. Progressives talk at aggrieved people, not with them. I suspect this is because affluent white boomers are privileged to lose elections without experiencing personal consequences.

That’s an example of the distance that alienates me from the party.

Edited by Bozo_Casanova

  • Author
2 hours ago, capnamerca said:

What does this word salad even mean?

It means the words that it says. If you don’t get the plain meaning of what it means to “work and speak in ways that finds common cause with any person getting shafted” I cant explain it to you. Mamdani gets it. He speaks to where people are hurting and directs their anger. This is what happens when you identify with the voters you want.

17 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

@capnamerca chanting the litany of policies-that-are-good-for-you is how Democrats found themselves out of power despite a significant polling advantage in virtually every major policy area. Progressives talk at aggrieved people, not with them. I suspect this is because affluent white boomers are privileged to lose elections without experiencing personal consequences.

That’s an example of the distance that alienates me from the party.

What distances me is that they do not even do the freaking things they talk to us about. They are all like "put up with out bullshit and our constant failures because our brilliant strategy will deliver all these things!" and we put up with their bullshit and they don't even deliver the things they promised. It isn't that I just want everybody to be far left, it is just that those seem to be the only people who seem to get it. They are the only ones who seem to listen and understand the issues.

But I would put up with the being lectured to by people who are decisive and successful leaders who delivered results. But they aren't and they don't.

Dems need a message for people without having to fallback on socially approved progressive bullshit.

And that bullshit can mean whatever is palatable to get them back under the tent.

Edited by StassneyHorn

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