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How would you rank these point guards?

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Lulz. I’ll just respond that I never blamed him for his death. Anyone can read the thread or my current comments on the Minny thread. Also, I played basketball competitively for over half my life. I’ve forgotten more than you’ll ever know. Curry is not a traditional PG, yet will end up ranked better than any traditional PG. Not a controversial statement unless you’re looking for a fight. The Rex references and your emotional rants are beyond tiresome. Back on ignore you go. 

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1 hour ago, ztejas said:

If we're going by peak it's CP3 and it's not even close. In 2008 Paul was at worst the 2nd best player in the league behind LeBron. In 2009 he was just as good but Kobe was probably more impactful down the line. None of those other guys ever reached that level. It's a fucking joke that Nash has 2 MVPs. 

If we're going by career then I would take Stockton. 

I'll meet it in the middle and try and rank by 5-6 year prime. 

CP3 and Stockton is close. CP3 is probably the slightly better defender, better rebounder and scorer. Stockton was a better passer and seems like he was a better leader/less of a primadonna cunt. He also played every game every year while Paul has always been injury prone. 

The rest is easy. Payton edges Nash for me as he had a more complete game and the defense is too much to ignore. One is a top 3 defender at his position ever, one was absolutely awful. 

Kidd was never a great player and is clearly 5th. I guess he was entertaining and played on some pretty good teams in the early 2000s, but he strikes me as chronically overrated just like Iverson (although AI was a little better). Basically any metric will tell you as much. 

So looking at best, consistent stretch of elite play, I'd go

Stockton

Paul

Payton

Nash 

Kidd 

I feel like you might be underselling 02-04 Jason Kidd on the Nets, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this version of Kidd wasn’t as good as I remembered. I thought he was pretty special on the Nets 

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Posted (edited)

Stockton may not have explosive highlights, but he shot 52% for his career, led the league in assists 9 years in a row, led the league in steals multiple times, and went to the playoffs like 20 years in a row in a small market.   And I think he helped make Malone more than the other way around.  Those Utah teams were about the most unlikable ever, so I get it, but he’s got to be number 1 out of this group.

I agree with those giving this ranking:

1. Stockton

2. Paul

3. Payton

4. Nash

5. Kidd

I know Kidd played much of his career during the low scoring “no blood no foul” era, but his career shooting percentage is terrible even with that context.   The fact that he jacked up enough 3s to be high on the all-time career 3s list despite being a bad shooter doesn’t help him, and might even make it worse in my book.

Edited by longhornmatt

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On 5/30/2020 at 8:22 PM, Bevo said:

Kidd IMO was way overrated. He always tried to make the highlight pass instead of keeping it simple. Stockton would just put the ball in the right place for his teammates. He was always in control. Personally, I don't think the comparison is even close on offense . However, Kidd was a better defender and rebounder.

Stockton = always in control. Kidd = always tried to make the highlight pass. Stockton = coach on the floor? Kidd = better athlete? Seriously?

On 6/1/2020 at 1:10 AM, longhornmatt said:

Stockton may not have explosive highlights, but he shot 52% for his career, led the league in assists 9 years in a row, led the league in steals multiple times, and went to the playoffs like 20 years in a row in a small market.   And I think he helped make Malone more than the other way around.  

There is a reason why Karl Malone won two MVPs and John Stockton didn't win any. There's a reason that John Stockton never once in his career finished higher than Karl Malone in MVP voting. There's a reason Stockton never finished higher than 7th in MVP voting in any single year and Karl Malone finished in the top 5 on 9 separate occasions. Karl Malone was a physical freak of nature. He definitely made Stockton more than the other way around. Pair John Stockton with Vin Baker instead and what does his career look like? Karl Malone was going to be a hall of famer regardless.

If you want to argue stats, I'm going to lose every time in the Stockton v. Kidd debate. But the things that made Kidd such a dynamic and impactful player were the kinds of things that don't show up in the stat sheet. He had such a high basketball IQ and made the game so much easier for his teammates. He would see the game in a way and make plays that very few other players would and could make. His impact on the game could be felt in so many more and different ways than Stockton could ever dream of.

John Stockton was never the best player on his team once in the 1000 seasons that he played. Who was the best player that Kidd ever played with in his prime? Kidd was 37 in 2011 playing with Dirk. And you could argue that even then, he was the second best player on a championship team which is more than you can say about Stockton.

On 5/31/2020 at 1:30 PM, youdunnf'dup said:

I feel like you might be underselling 02-04 Jason Kidd on the Nets, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe this version of Kidd wasn’t as good as I remembered. I thought he was pretty special on the Nets 

This. So much this. Who was the second best player on his team? Kenyon Martin? Richard Jefferson? Kerry fucking Kittles? He dragged those dog ass Nets teams to the finals two years in a row and lost to the eventual champion Pistons in a 7 game series the third year. Not one other player on this list can say that they were clearly the best player on a team that went to the finals. None of them. You can make an argument for Payton, but he and Kemp were kinda 1a and 1b.

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14 minutes ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

This. So much this. Who was the second best player on his team? Kenyon Martin? Richard Jefferson? Kerry fucking Kittles? He dragged those dog ass Nets teams to the finals two years in a row and lost to the eventual champion Pistons in a 7 game series the third year. Not one other player on this list can say that they were clearly the best player on a team that went to the finals. None of them. You can make an argument for Payton, but he and Kemp were kinda 1a and 1b.

See, that’s how i remember it. I think Kenyon Martin was a borderline allstar but other than that who else was even on those teams? He carried those teams. Maybe I’m biased because Kidd was one of my favorite players as a kid, but there’s no way Nash was better than NJ Nets Kidd IMO. 

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On 5/31/2020 at 12:24 PM, Goo Punch said:

last night I was drunk, and angry. that said, here in the sober light of day I'm still completely tired of seeing Rex everywhere I go, opining on shit that he is completely clueless about as if he were actually an expert, and/or just saying indefensibly stupid/uninformed shit. last night was the first time that I responded to him "with a bazooka" as he put it, but he's been deserving of the bazooka treatment for a hot minute now. here's the last three things I've seen Rex posting about:

1-About 8 posts in a row blaming Ahmaud Arbery for his own murder. Seriously. The literal stupidest shit I've ever seen posted. Didn't respond to him once, because what the fuck is the point of even arguing with that type of idiocy?

2-Emphatically claiming that Wayne Gretzky is nowhere near as clear of a GOAT in his sport as MJ is in his, when in fact the exact opposite is true. He *knows* that he doesn't know a single fucking thing about Wayne Gretzky, but will that stop him from acting like he's a Gretzky biographer? nope. I politely corrected him this time. 

3- "Steph Curry is a PG the same way Allen Iverson was a PG." Again, not just factually wrong, but completely fucking stupid. Only someone who has absolutely no clue what he's talking about could even type that out and post it, but again, that has never stopped Rex. It's a completely lazy and uninformed take. Steph Curry, a point guard, isn't a PG in Rex's mind because all Rex knows about him is that he scores a lot. I can't wait for Rex's take on how Lamar Jackson is a QB the same way Ronnie Brown was in Miami since they both are good at running. 

I regret nothing and apologize for nothing. Rex sucks dicks for quarters, which is normally fine when he's not frequenting the same threads as I do. This last week+ of having to listen to his uninformed and retarded takes is only making the present even worse than it already is. 

And Rex, I'm not being mean as I "disagree with you", you are saying factually incorrect and stupid shit and I am insulting you for it. Big difference. 

Not getting into this fight but I will take exception with your point above about Gretzky.  I think Gretzky is the GOAT in hockey but it is not nearly as clear cut as MJ in basketball. 

Gretzky was the all time GOAT of GOATS offensively in hockey but he was, self admittedly, a liability on defense.  Tom Brady can be argued as the GOAT in football but was he really better than say Lawrence Taylor?  Impossible to know.  But we do know that Gretzky sucked at defense.  Bobby Orr was a great offensive player.  He is still 4th all time in points per game average and Gretzky is number 1 but the spread between the two is not that big (1.4 to 1.9) but Orr is considered the greatest nhl defender ever.  He was NHL defensive POY 8 times, still a record.  He also won the scoring title a few times in his career.  The delta between the offensive greatness of Gretzky and Orr is way, way smaller than the delta between them as defenders. Orr is in the top 15 of offensive hockey players ever but Gretzky cant crack the top 500 defenders.  All of that to say that Gretzky is still the GOAT but there are very good arguments for others.

During his run, MJ won both scoring titles and defensive titles.  It is not even close.   6-0 in finals and mvp all 6 times.  Only player in leauge history to win a scoring title, finals, finals mvp and 1st team all defense in the same year, and he did it 4 times.  

Think of it this way, a 5 man team of all Jordans probably still wins an NBA championship.  A 5 man team of Gretzkys couldnt beat a college team.  

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29 minutes ago, sheeeit said:

A 5 man team of Gretzkys couldnt beat a college team.  

You had me until the last sentence. Seriously, what the fuck?

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2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

You had me until the last sentence. Seriously, what the fuck?

I believe it.  They would all be injured in the first quarter.  Seriously though, in his heyday Gretzky was maybe 180 lbs?  A team of all Gretzkys could never dig the puck out of the corner.  Could never move people out from in front of the goal.  Teams would score at will against them.  On defense, the other team would just sit back a bit and mug.  Games would be like 10-4 against.  Hockey is incredibly physical and a team of Gretzkys just could not compete physically.  Gretzky had decent speed but was very, very quick and one of his biggest attribute was his agility, in that he could get to a top speed and not lose any agility.  He also had incredible hands and an innate feel for the game.  But no hockey team ever could compete with just guys like Gretzky.  No Houston Rockets/ Golden State Warrior small ball teams.  The game is just to physical.

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21 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

You had me until the last sentence. Seriously, what the fuck?

You underestimate the degree of difficulty of playing with no goalie and only 5 men on the ice

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1. Stockton

2/3. Nash/CP3 - honestly, you could convince me either way. CP3 was a much better defender but Nash's impact was bigger, he transformed the Suns from a 29-win team to a 62-win team in just one season which is nothing short of stupendous. Gun to my head I probably go with Nash.

4. Jason Kidd

5. Gary Payton

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7 hours ago, aggie08 said:

You had me until the last sentence. Seriously, what the fuck?

yeah this was too much. also, Gretzky wasn't a defender. defending in hockey is not analogous to defending in basketball. there are no designated defensive players in basketball like there are in sports like hockey and soccer. there's a reason that all of the greatest players of all time in those sports are forwards/attackers. when the final score of a game often involves 2-3 TOTAL goals between both teams, there's no substitute for someone who simply cannot be stopped from scoring or creating goals. I'm sure that a team filled with 11 Messi's, or Maradonna's, or Pele's would be lacking in certain areas too, but that has nothing to do with whether or not they are the GOAT in their sport.

to put it more succinctly: NOBODY disputes that Gretzky is the hockey GOAT. Nobody. Lemeuix, Ovechkin, Crosby, whoever the best has been at any random time in my life, NOBODY thinks that there's an argument that any of them is even the equal of The Great One.  Meanwhile I've heard people make cases for Magic, Russell, MJ, LeBron, and yes, even a shit ton of people who think that Kobe is the GOAT.  There's only one major pro sport where nobody debates or disputes who the GOAT is, and that, by definition, makes Gretzky the GOATiest GOAT of all time. 

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7 hours ago, sheeeit said:

I believe it.  They would all be injured in the first quarter.  Seriously though, in his heyday Gretzky was maybe 180 lbs?  A team of all Gretzkys could never dig the puck out of the corner.  Could never move people out from in front of the goal.  Teams would score at will against them.  On defense, the other team would just sit back a bit and mug.  Games would be like 10-4 against.  Hockey is incredibly physical and a team of Gretzkys just could not compete physically.  Gretzky had decent speed but was very, very quick and one of his biggest attribute was his agility, in that he could get to a top speed and not lose any agility.  He also had incredible hands and an innate feel for the game.  But no hockey team ever could compete with just guys like Gretzky.  No Houston Rockets/ Golden State Warrior small ball teams.  The game is just to physical.

5 Gretzky's would beat the college national Champion 23-0. it would be laughable how easily they'd score. It would be like 5 prime Larry Bird's taking on UVA or Michigan State. It just wouldn't even be close.

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Here it is: this is like saying that Tom Brady can't be the GOAT in football because he would make a poor cornerback. It has nothing to do with his GOAT status, it's just a commentary on which skills he has and which ones he doesn't. Gretzky wouldn't make a great defenseman; but what does that have to do with his status as the GOAT? Nothing. 

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Posted (edited)

back to the lecture at hand, this is an impossible execrcise. here's why- we've left the "greatest PG of all time" echelon and moved squarely into the tier below that, which makes "ranking" these guys almost exclusively subjective based on a litany of factors, both between the players themselves (i.e. career stats vs prime abilities) as well as those of us attempting to have this debate (do I value passing and defense more than scoring and shooting- what era did i grow up in- from which era are the rules- and so on). 

to me you can't really rank these guys in a vacuum because there are simply way too many factors and question marks that all of us would have to agree on to come to an understanding of *how* to rank these players. so to me it's less about "ranking" them, and more about just talking about their different strengths and weaknesses, which eras they would thrive in, and who their teammates would need to be. 

these guys all played the same position, but they are such different, and flawed, and imperfect players that each guy's value goes up or down depending on his coach, teammates, era, team play style, etc. even if you try and make it "you're starting a team today and you *have* to start by choosing one of these PGs" then it's still going to come down to personal preference (i.e. do I know that i want a build a team that will run up and down, do i want to draft the best possible players and build the system around what I have, do I want to play completely different style, etc). 

Stockton and Payton are the most solid all around guys. One is the steals and assists leader and a member of the Dream Team, the other is one of the best perimeter defenders ever, one of the strongest minded players ever, and one of the best trash talkers ever, and he was an a over average offensive player as well. You can't go wrong with either one, and each has fewer/less severe glaring holes than the other three. If you want your team to get up and down eschewing defense for scoring then the answer is Nash and it's not close. He's also a warrior and a winner, even if he never won a title. Kidd is an absolute dynamo but you really need to build a specific type of team around him, and can't just plug him in to any lineup like you can with some of these other guys. And Chris Paul should probably be considered a unanimous top 5 PG of all time based on his skill and career stats, but everyone in the NBA hates him, he sucks as teammate, and he's not a winner. I wouldn't want him on my team no matter what. 

So there you go. How can I rank this second-tier group of PG's when they're all such drastically different players with different skill sets and glaring flaws? Based on everything I've just said it would seem that my breakdown of these guys would look like this:

Payton/Stockton

 

Nash

 

Kidd

 

 

 

 

CP3

and that's with me acknowledging that the guy who I have waaaaay behind everyone else might be more talented than Stockton, my co-no.1. hence why i don't see a way to rank these guys in a vacuum. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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6 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

to put it more succinctly: NOBODY disputes that Gretzky is the hockey GOAT. Nobody. Lemeuix, Ovechkin, Crosby, whoever the best has been at any random time in my life, NOBODY thinks that there's an argument that any of them is even the equal of The Great One.

Perhaps you just don't look very hard.  You can google many, many experts that think Orr was better.

Don Cherry- Hard to find more of an expert (played professionally and watched more games than anyone alive)- He says it is Orr.  He is certainly "somebody".

More: https://puckprose.com/2016/07/23/bobby-orr-is-greatest-hockey-player-of-all-time/

Steve Simmons- Arguably the greatest hockey sports writer of all time.  Ranked the 100 best in NHL history and has Orr 1 and Gretzky 2. https://nationalpost.com/sports/hockey/nhl/wayne-gretzky-was-great-but-bobby-orr-is-the-greatest-steve-simmons-ranks-the-nhls-100-best-players

Obviously these are just opinions but when you said NOBODY (3 times) thinks anyone else is the goat I gave you 2 unquestionable hockey experts (as opposed to dorks like me who's opinion is just that) that publicly state Orr was better.  The point being, there is certainly a debate.

Personally, I think gretzky is the GOAT but , again personally, I think Orr has a better argument for GOAT than any other basketball player has to MJ.  

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Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr couldn't dribble for shit and wouldn't start at point guard for any team in the NBA. Probably better shooters than Jason Kidd though.

 

1) Stockton

2) Payton

3) Kidd

4) Nash

5) Paul (arguably most talented, easily the worst teammate and probably least dependable to be healthy in the playoffs of the bunch, even taking into account Nash's back)

6) Gretzky

7) Orr

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7 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

5 Gretzky's would beat the college national Champion 23-0. it would be laughable how easily they'd score. It would be like 5 prime Larry Bird's taking on UVA or Michigan State. It just wouldn't even be close.

This is just fun debate and obviously very subjective, but I do not think you ever played hockey or watched much hockey, certainly not live.  How would 5 180 pound guys that are phenomenal skaters and puck handlers etc ever stop another team from scoring?  Do you know how physical hockey is?  They would beat the 180 pound guys down to a pulp.  The 180 guys might not even come out for the 3rd quarter.  The college guys could hang out in front of the goal and not one of the 180 guys could move them.  Every time a puck went into the corner (which happens 50+ times a game) the 180 guys would get bludgoned.  

 

6 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

Gretzky wouldn't make a great defenseman; but what does that have to do with his status as the GOAT? Nothing. 

Well it kind of does.  When you say NOBODY, I will agree that NOBODY says Gretzky is not the greatest offensive player of all time.  NOBODY disputes that.  But for the GOAT of all of hockey, you just ignore defense and physicality.  

This debate was whether or not MY was a bigger GOAT in basketball than Gretzky in Hockey.  I am arguing that Jordan was the very best offensive player in the game.  Still holds the highest season scoring average (in an era where total scoring was much lower), holds the highest playoff average all time, holds the highest finals average all time, etc.  Plus he is included on almost any list of greatest nba defenders.  Holds the record for most 1st team all defense.  No one comes close to those combinations.

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16 minutes ago, KingBobo81 said:

Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr couldn't dribble for shit and wouldn't start at point guard for any team in the NBA. Probably better shooters than Jason Kidd though.

 

1) Stockton

2) Payton

3) Kidd

4) Nash

5) Paul (arguably most talented, easily the worst teammate and probably least dependable to be healthy in the playoffs of the bunch, even taking into account Nash's back)

6) Gretzky

7) Orr

Considering the question is to rank the players at their peak, I think it's fair to assume you're assessing each while healthy.

... Which is why Lemieux has to have a spot on this list. 

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Posted (edited)

re: the idea that 5 Gretzky's wouldn't just abuse a college team (or what's worse that they would lose, lulz), here is video of 50 year old Mike Miller just toying with a bunch of basketball players from Penny Hardaway's Memphis team:

again, that's 63 year-old spot-up shooter Mike Miller just toying with some major D-1 basketball players. the difference in professionals and collegiate athletes is staggering. when you spend your entire adult life living/breathing/training as a top flight professional, college kids become a joke to go up against. Five Wayne Gretzky's would absolutely humiliate the greatest college hockey team ever.

 

Edited by Goo Punch

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re: the idea that 5 Gretzky's wouldn't just abuse a college team (or what's worse that they would lose, lulz), here is video of 50 year old Mike Miller just toying with a bunch of basketball players from Penny Hardaway's Memphis team:
again, that's 63 year-old spot-up shooter Mike Miller just toying with some major D-1 basketball players. the difference in professionals and collegiate athletes is staggering. when you spend your entire adult life living/breathing/training as a top flight professional, college kids become a joke to go up against. Five Wayne Gretzky's would absolutely humiliate the greatest college hockey team ever.
 
The college team would literally never get the puck.

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2 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:
3 hours ago, Goo Punch said:
re: the idea that 5 Gretzky's wouldn't just abuse a college team (or what's worse that they would lose, lulz), here is video of 50 year old Mike Miller just toying with a bunch of basketball players from Penny Hardaway's Memphis team:
again, that's 63 year-old spot-up shooter Mike Miller just toying with some major D-1 basketball players. the difference in professionals and collegiate athletes is staggering. when you spend your entire adult life living/breathing/training as a top flight professional, college kids become a joke to go up against. Five Wayne Gretzky's would absolutely humiliate the greatest college hockey team ever.
 

Read more  

The college team would literally never get the puck.

it would be like when the Dream Team ran it back against the college All Stars. i mean there's a more than 99% chance that none of the college player will ever at his future peak go on to be even close to as talented/good as the worst player on the opposing team, a team of fully grown men, legends in their prime. the real question would be how many goals Team Gretzky scored before the college team got one in the net. if they were really trying, it could easily be dozens. 

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On 6/2/2020 at 1:46 PM, Mitch Cumsteen said:

He dragged those dog ass Nets teams to the finals two years in a row and lost to the eventual champion Pistons in a 7 game series the third year.

I mean he did but the East in the early 2000s was a fucking trainwreck. Those Nets Finals teams won 52 and 49 games in the regular season. That is typically good for a 7 or 8 seed in the West. Taking the 04 Pistons to 7 is more impressive than either of those Finals runs.

When you look at the teams Kidd played in the East and the teams that Chris Paul has had to deal with, or that Nash played, there's really no comparison. Durant, Curry, Kobe are in a different stratosphere than anyone Kidd played in the East, and then you add in all the great Spurs teams and some salty Mavs teams.

I guess the point I'm making is that it's kind of disingenuous to use team success or wins when you're comparing Kidd to players that faced much tougher competition.

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On 5/31/2020 at 11:46 AM, ztejas said:

Stockton

Paul

Payton

Nash 

Kidd 

This is the correct list.  Kidd and Nash get deductions for being screen doors on defense.  Kidd gets additional deductions for absolutely REFUSING to shoot the damn ball.  His game aged really poorly because the defending team could literally drop his defender and dare him to shoot the 3 and he just. wouldn't. do. it.  Even wide open.  Can't be top tier when you're not a threat yourself.

CP3 when he was in his prime was magic with the ball.  He had that thing on a string like no one I've seen in years, just an incredible handle and control and court vision.  Payton's 1:1 play was unmatched, he might not have been the passer but he could create and defend really well and would be similar to Westbrook in today's NBA.  Stockton was really rounded.  I think he'd rack up the assists on any modern NBA team, play what passes for defense today, and had enough 3 ball to keep the defense from sagging.  Although really any of those top 3 I'd be happy to have as my starting PG.

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44 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

This is the correct list.  Kidd and Nash get deductions for being screen doors on defense.  Kidd gets additional deductions for absolutely REFUSING to shoot the damn ball.  His game aged really poorly because the defending team could literally drop his defender and dare him to shoot the 3 and he just. wouldn't. do. it.  Even wide open. 

 

A lot of this is untrue. Kidd wasn't a screen door defensively, and as his career went on he did start shooting plenty of threes. when he retired he was top 5 all time in 3PM.

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also, for the people who rank Paul 1st or 2nd: does it not bother you that he's a career loser who everyone hates? you definitely can't win with him as your best player, and i have a hard time imagining winning a title with him as even your second best player, because again, nobody likes him. to me he's in the same class as guys like Kyrie and Melo when it comes to my belief in his ability to help lead a team to victory. if he doesn't have LeBron as his no.1, it's not going to happen. 

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5 hours ago, ztejas said:

I mean he did but the East in the early 2000s was a fucking trainwreck. Those Nets Finals teams won 52 and 49 games in the regular season. That is typically good for a 7 or 8 seed in the West. Taking the 04 Pistons to 7 is more impressive than either of those Finals runs.

When you look at the teams Kidd played in the East and the teams that Chris Paul has had to deal with, or that Nash played, there's really no comparison. Durant, Curry, Kobe are in a different stratosphere than anyone Kidd played in the East, and then you add in all the great Spurs teams and some salty Mavs teams.

I guess the point I'm making is that it's kind of disingenuous to use team success or wins when you're comparing Kidd to players that faced much tougher competition.

I can't really argue with most of this, although that Nets team did make the Spurs play 6 games in the finals so it wasn't like they were completely overmatched. But then I look at the other guys on this list and ask myself, "If you substitute Stockton or Nash or Payton or CP3 for Jason Kidd on any of those Nets teams, do they still make the finals?" And I really don't believe so. Do you see John Stockton or Steve Nash making Kenyon Martin and Richard Fucking Jefferson into all-stars? Do you see Chris Paul or GP leading them to the finals? I sure as shit don't. 

4 hours ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

This is the correct list.  Kidd and Nash get deductions for being screen doors on defense.  Kidd gets additional deductions for absolutely REFUSING to shoot the damn ball.  His game aged really poorly because the defending team could literally drop his defender and dare him to shoot the 3 and he just. wouldn't. do. it.  Even wide open.  Can't be top tier when you're not a threat yourself.

Just so we are clear here... we are talking about Jason Kidd being lousy on defense. The same Jason Kidd who was 4 time all NBA first team defense and 5 time all NBA second team defense? Almost a full decade being one of the best 10 defenders in the league? Same guy who is number two all time in the league history in steals? Also, one of the best rebounding guards in the history of the league, which I consider to be a huge part of defense because a stop doesn't happen until you get the ball back. And to be clear, are we talking also about the same Jason Kidd who "just. wouldn't. do it" (i.e., shoot the three pointer ) who is 9th all time in three point attempts in league history? And who actually became a decent three point shooter toward the end of his career - it was literally the one skill that actually did age well for him. It's one thing to have a bad take, but man you are just factually wrong on this one.

3 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

also, for the people who rank Paul 1st or 2nd: does it not bother you that he's a career loser who everyone hates? you definitely can't win with him as your best player, and i have a hard time imagining winning a title with him as even your second best player, because again, nobody likes him. to me he's in the same class as guys like Kyrie and Melo when it comes to my belief in his ability to help lead a team to victory. if he doesn't have LeBron as his no.1, it's not going to happen. 

All this is true. I haven't liked him since he punched that guy in the junk in college. Bad dude, bad teammate but I have him lower on my list because he just couldn't stay healthy. The most important ability is availability, and he can't finish out a playoff. 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Goo Punch said:

also, for the people who rank Paul 1st or 2nd: does it not bother you that he's a career loser who everyone hates? you definitely can't win with him as your best player, and i have a hard time imagining winning a title with him as even your second best player, because again, nobody likes him. to me he's in the same class as guys like Kyrie and Melo when it comes to my belief in his ability to help lead a team to victory. if he doesn't have LeBron as his no.1, it's not going to happen. 

I think that 07 hornets team and the Clippers team that beat us (the spurs) in the first round could’ve won it all. I don’t remember the exact details, but I remember that Hornets series against the spurs being as back and forth as it gets. We ended up winning in 6 games (and winning the ship) but it was one of those series that I feel like could’ve easily gone the other way if I’m not mistaken. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. They were the 2 seed that year and we were the 3 seed. I felt like they were better than us that year, but when Dallas lost in round one to the warriors, that 2v3 series kinda turned into the defacto championship IMO because of how weak the East was. 
 

that clippers team that lost to the rockets had one of the most epic choke jobs in NBA history. I forget which game it was, but there was definitely one game out of those last 3 that they blew really badly. That clippers team had the warriors number, and it was before the warriors ever won anything. I’m not saying they win that series, but I think that series would’ve been pretty back and forth. 
 

I don’t know, man. For me, it’s the fact that I know I hate him a lot more than any of the other players on this list. I was too young to see Payton or Stockton in their prime, but I think he’s easily better than Nash, and id choose prime hornets CP3 over prime nets Kidd. 

Edited by youdunnf'dup

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1 hour ago, youdunnf'dup said:

that clippers team that lost to the rockets had one of the most epic choke jobs in NBA history. I forget which game it was, but there was definitely one game out of those last 3 that they blew really badly. That clippers team had the warriors number, and it was before the warriors ever won anything. I’m not saying they win that series, but I think that series would’ve been pretty back and forth. 

The Warriors took the Clippers to 7 games in 2014 as the 6th seed with a hobbled David Lee and Mark Jackson's dumb ass as their coach. Under Steve Kerr, Golden State proceeded to win 13 of their next 16 games against LAC--including 12 straight--most in embarrassing fashion.  The Clippers would have gotten boat-raced by the Warriors in 2015 had they not preemptively choked against Houston.

I'm not sure that the Clippers have ever had anyone's "number" in their entire history.  Before this season, they hadn't beaten Golden State more than twice in a row since 2006.

Co-signed that Chris Paul is a bitch who will never win anything, and eventually grinds down his teammates.  It makes me very happy that the "Point God" won't even be remembered as the best PG of his generation, let alone all-time.

 

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33 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

The Warriors took the Clippers to 7 games in 2014 as the 6th seed with a hobbled David Lee and Mark Jackson's dumb ass as their coach. Under Steve Kerr, Golden State proceeded to win 13 of their next 16 games against LAC--including 12 straight--most in embarrassing fashion.  The Clippers would have gotten boat-raced by the Warriors in 2015 had they not preemptively choked against Houston.

I'm not sure that the Clippers have ever had anyone's "number" in their entire history.  Before this season, they hadn't beaten Golden State more than twice in a row since 2006.

Co-signed that Chris Paul is a bitch who will never win anything, and eventually grinds down his teammates.  It makes me very happy that the "Point God" won't even be remembered as the best PG of his generation, let alone all-time.

 

I guess you’re probably right. I still think the 07 team could’ve won it all just because that was a really weird year for the NBA after clearly the best team in the league went down in the ford round. That felt like a back and forth series, and he was a problem. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

Do you see John Stockton or Steve Nash making Kenyon Martin and Richard Fucking Jefferson into all-stars? Do you see Chris Paul or GP leading them to the finals? I sure as shit don't. 

Yes. Because I think all of those players are better than Kidd. But we can agree to disagree. 

3 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

that clippers team that lost to the rockets had one of the most epic choke jobs in NBA history. I forget which game it was, but there was definitely one game out of those last 3 that they blew really badly. That clippers team had the warriors number, and it was before the warriors ever won anything. I’m not saying they win that series, but I think that series would’ve been pretty back and forth. 

I mean this is really why I can't put Chris Paul first on my list. The door was wide fucking open in 2015 after they beat the Spurs and they pissed it away. I would put that 2015 Warriors team below Miami and SA in 2013, the Spurs in 2014, OKC and Cavs in 2016, Houston in 2018*, Toronto in 2019 and the Warriors squads in 2017-2019. They just weren't built for the playoffs yet. 

And then he did it again in 2018 - the Rockets should have won that series and they would have taken a steaming shit on that pathetic Cavs team. Durant was just dicking around with them by game 4 - they would have had nobody to check Paul and Harden, or the ability to hang with that bench for 48 mins a night. 

Edited by ztejas

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20 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Yes. Because I think all of those players are better than Kidd. But we can agree to disagree. 

I mean this is really why I can't put Chris Paul first on my list. The door was wide fucking open in 2015 after they beat the Spurs and they pissed it away. I would put that 2015 Warriors team below Miami and SA in 2013, the Spurs in 2014, OKC and Cavs in 2016, Houston in 2018*, Toronto in 2019 and the Warriors squads in 2017-2019. They just weren't built for the playoffs yet. 

And then he did it again in 2018 - the Rockets should have won that series and they would have taken a steaming shit on that pathetic Cavs team. Durant was just dicking around with them by game 4 - they would have had nobody to check Paul and Harden, or the ability to hang with that bench for 48 mins a night. 

Paul pulled his hammy in game 5.

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2 hours ago, John Lawrence said:

Paul pulled his hammy in game 5.

You're right. Should have wrote "his team" did it again. 

I mean really it underscores the fact that he's never been consistently at 100% in his career - which is a huge knock when comparing him to someone like Stockton. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, youdunnf'dup said:

I think that 07 hornets team and the Clippers team that beat us (the spurs) in the first round could’ve won it all. I don’t remember the exact details, but I remember that Hornets series against the spurs being as back and forth as it gets. We ended up winning in 6 games (and winning the ship) but it was one of those series that I feel like could’ve easily gone the other way if I’m not mistaken. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. They were the 2 seed that year and we were the 3 seed. I felt like they were better than us that year, but when Dallas lost in round one to the warriors, that 2v3 series kinda turned into the defacto championship IMO because of how weak the East was. 
 

You have your years and outcomes a bit mixed. 2007 was the year y'all won it all but did not play the Hornets. I don't even think the Hornets made the playoffs that year. 2007 was the year Dallas lost to the Warriors in the 1st round and y'all took care of the Suns and the Jazz with ease to get to the Finals and swept Cleveland. I think the Spurs only lost 4 games that entire postseason. Still wish we could have gotten a Dallas/SA rematch from the epic 2006 playoff matchup. We would have except Avery Johnson was a god awful coach and the Warriors with Don Nelson made him their bitch. We had no idea how to defend their athleticism and they ran us off the court so often. Embarrassing series for Dallas, especially coming off the Finals debacle the year before and we got the 1 seed and 67 wins.

2008 was the Spurs/Hornets matchup. 2nd round. It went 7 and was a fantastic series. Hornets went up 2 and then the Spurs won the next 2. And the Spurs beat the Hornets on the road in game 7. Y'all went to face the Lakers in the WCF but got dealt with in 5 games. No one was stopping a Lakers/Celtics Finals that year. That was the year the Lakers made the Gasol trade and got new life after their failures after Shaq.

And the Clippers game you are referencing was game 5 against OKC in 2014. Clippers had a 7pt lead with less than a minute left. And had the ball. They choked and lost the series. But that game, Ibaka injured himself. And the Thnder could not compete with the Spurs without Ibaka out there.

Edited by Vic Mackey

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27 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

You have your years and outcomes a bit mixed. 2007 was the year y'all won it all but did not play the Hornets. I don't even think the Hornets made the playoffs that year. 2007 was the year Dallas lost to the Warriors in the 1st round and y'all took care of the Suns and the Jazz with ease to get to the Finals and swept Cleveland. I think the Spurs only lost 4 games that entire postseason. Still wish we could have gotten a Dallas/SA rematch from the epic 2006 playoff matchup. We would have except Avery Johnson was a god awful coach and the Warriors with Don Nelson made him their bitch. We had no idea how to defend their athleticism and they ran us off the court so often. Embarrassing series for Dallas, especially coming off the Finals debacle the year before and we got the 1 seed and 67 wins.

2008 was the Spurs/Hornets matchup. 2nd round. It went 7 and was a fantastic series. Hornets went up 2 and then the Spurs won the next 2. And the Spurs beat the Hornets on the road in game 7. Y'all went to face the Lakers in the WCF but got dealt with in 5 games. No one was stopping a Lakers/Celtics Finals that year. That was the year the Lakers made the Gasol trade and got new life after their failures after Shaq.

And the Clippers game you are referencing was game 5 against OKC in 2014. Clippers had a 7pt lead with less than a minute left. And had the ball. They choked and lost the series. But that game, Ibaka injured himself. And the Thnder could not compete with the Spurs without Ibaka out there.

Definitely had my years and outcomes mixed up. Thank you for clarifying.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2020 at 5:41 AM, Goo Punch said:

5 Gretzky's would beat the college national Champion 23-0. it would be laughable how easily they'd score. It would be like 5 prime Larry Bird's taking on UVA or Michigan State. It just wouldn't even be close.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think the Gretzky assigned to play goalie could get it done even if they don't have to play a man down.  Scoring Gretzkies also need to rely on another Gretzky to lay down the law.  He won't have Semenko or McSorley to keep the other team honest, and they will be hammering the Gretzkys hard. In basketball, there are no truly specialized positions. 11 Tom Bradys playing both ways would get wrecked by any BCS level team. You think Tom Brady can block a D1 DE, or cover a WR?  Hockey isn't as specialized as football, but it ain't basketball either. It would be close.

Edited by FondrenRoad

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Posted (edited)

it really wouldn't be close, and (probably) the biggest factor in that would be the speed. any old seasoned pro is already accustomed to doing everything at warp speed compared to a college player/team. that's one of the defining differences when it comes to those who make it as a pro and those who don't- the ability to play at speed. Team Gretzky would be flying around the ice making everything look effortless while the college kids got gassed and depressed just trying to keep up. the college kids would pretty much spend the entire 3rd period pinned into their own end, just exhausted and demoralized. they'd be fatigued before TG worked up a sweat. 

related analogy: i have a buddy who's a life long soccer fan who never got into baseball (black guys, amirite?), but he started to get into the sport more and more in recent years simply from being around me. something i pointed out to him about baseball, that's the same in soccer, is how insanely easy the pros make it look, and how the top pros make it look even easier, even when it's not. at that level you are *expected* to make very difficult plays look routine. think of hot grounder to third that comes off the bat at 113 mph and leads the 3B into foul ground where he has to throw across his body to retire the runner by about 0.2 seconds. if you're going to be good enough to play at the top level then you need to be so talented as to make that play look routine. it's all about the speed of the game, and that's one of the main reasons that Team Gretzky would obliterate any college team ever. even the greatest college hockey team ever would only have 1-2 kids who were actually ready to play at speed for three periods. against a team of Wayne Gretzky's? fuhgeddaboutit.

Edited by Goo Punch

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55 minutes ago, cmontexas said:

What football player if you cloned 22 times would make the best football team?

Earl MF'in Campbell. 

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1 hour ago, cmontexas said:

What football player if you cloned 22 times would make the best football team?

Larry Allen.

 

Good luck stopping him.

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1 minute ago, Iceman said:

Larry Allen.

 

Good luck stopping him.

picturing Larry Allen snapping the ball to Larry Allen who then runs a read option with Larry Allen is hilarious. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

picturing Larry Allen snapping the ball to Larry Allen who then runs a read option with Larry Allen is hilarious. 

Best HoF speech ever.  "During my career  I didn't talk that much.  i didn't have to.  I used my helmet."

 

His opponents were paid professional football players.

 

 

Girl baked him a cake and gave him a 40.       "i knew that was my wife."

Edited by Iceman

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

 Y'all went to face the Lakers in the WCF but got dealt with in 5 games. No one was stopping a Lakers/Celtics Finals that year. That was the year the Lakers made the Gasol trade and got new life after their failures after Shaq.

Completely off topic, but the Lakers weren't markedly better than the Spurs that year. That series was actually very close and probably turns out differently with a healthy Manu. He was injured all year, and then fucked up his ankle in the first round against Phoenix and then fucked it up even worse against the Lakers. He gutted it out, but he was a shell of himself. He had ligament surgery after the season. The Spurs were also in the bizarre position of having to play game 7 in NOLA and then their plane broke down and they had to sleep on the plane, then fly to LA for game 1 on one day's rest. They lose game 1, blowing a 20 point third quarter lead when they ran out of gas. And they had a chance to tie the series in Game 4 and Joey Crawford swallowed his whistle on a terrible no call when fuck Derek Fisher landed on top of Brent Barry. I always thought Barry should have jumped into him and forced the call. 

 

Edited by Mitch Cumsteen

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