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Texas basketball '21-'22: Welcome Chris Beard


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 It's been so long since that (player development) was the MO of our program that i've damn near forgotten what that feels like.

Have to admit, this take bothers me.  Shaka may not have been the BEST at player development, but I think it is somewhat disrespectful to our players to act like they haven't developed in their time here.  

  • Coleman grew tremendously from his freshman season
  • Sims improved in most categories and has worked his way into the NBA draft conversation
  • Kai Jones was a borderline top-50 recruit and is now primed to go in the lottery
  • Ramey has improved his shooting from 58% to 83% on FTs and 38% to 41% from 3. His defense is also much improved
  • Andrew Jones had his best year last year despite all of his challenges
  • Kerwin Roach improved in just about every statistical category over 4 years
  • Jaxson Hayes wasn't even a top-100 recruit and was drafted top-10

I'm not saying that haven't been misses (Hamm and Liddell being recent examples).  We can certainly get better... I'm just saying we aren't starting from zero. 

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24 minutes ago, HookEm said:

Have to admit, this take bothers me.  Shaka may not have been the BEST at player development, but I think it is somewhat disrespectful to our players to act like they haven't developed in their time here.  

  • Coleman grew tremendously from his freshman season
  • Sims improved in most categories and has worked his way into the NBA draft conversation
  • Kai Jones was a borderline top-50 recruit and is now primed to go in the lottery
  • Ramey has improved his shooting from 58% to 83% on FTs and 38% to 41% from 3. His defense is also much improved
  • Andrew Jones had his best year last year despite all of his challenges
  • Kerwin Roach improved in just about every statistical category over 4 years
  • Jaxson Hayes wasn't even a top-100 recruit and was drafted top-10

I'm not saying that haven't been misses (Hamm and Liddell being recent examples).  We can certainly get better... I'm just saying we aren't starting from zero. 

Not sure I agree.

Most of the observed growth pertains to field goal percentages, which is to be expected. Players should become better shooters over time, particularly at the college level as they adapt from high school and devote countless hours in the gym.

But in terms of basketball IQ? Knowing where to be on the floor, what cuts to make, when to make them, when to help and rotate, when to foul (or not foul) ... you know, the sort of things a coaching staff is supposed to instruct and instill in its players, I can't objectively state there's been much growth at all.

You mentioned Sims. He still brings the ball down after rebounds. Still dribbles too much. Often still fails to locate and box out on rebounds. The little turnaround hook/fadeaway move to his right was on display as a raw freshman. What other move has he developed, such as a drop step? 

As for Roach, his basketball IQ after four years was no better than his first game. Unfortunately, I could make the same claim for Coleman, Ramey, and Jones. They still make the absolute worst decisions at the worst possible times, whether it's dribbling off their legs, dribbling out of bounds, forcing a bad pass, or chucking up ill-advised 3s early in the shot clock and with no rebounders in position.

Hayes and Jones were late bloomers/flyers. Jaxson was drafted on athletic potential; the same will apply for Kai. Give Shaka credit for recognizing their potential and getting them on campus, but developing them? 

 

To be clear, there's no intent to hate on our players. I love these guys (yes, even Roach). I just don't think they ever received the instruction and supervision they deserved. Coleman is a great example. That kid would've been an All-American at Duke, but maybe I need to set aside my burnt orange glasses.

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41 minutes ago, HookEm said:

Have to admit, this take bothers me.  Shaka may not have been the BEST at player development, but I think it is somewhat disrespectful to our players to act like they haven't developed in their time here.  

  • Coleman grew tremendously from his freshman season
  • Sims improved in most categories and has worked his way into the NBA draft conversation
  • Kai Jones was a borderline top-50 recruit and is now primed to go in the lottery
  • Ramey has improved his shooting from 58% to 83% on FTs and 38% to 41% from 3. His defense is also much improved
  • Andrew Jones had his best year last year despite all of his challenges
  • Kerwin Roach improved in just about every statistical category over 4 years
  • Jaxson Hayes wasn't even a top-100 recruit and was drafted top-10

I'm not saying that haven't been misses (Hamm and Liddell being recent examples).  We can certainly get better... I'm just saying we aren't starting from zero. 

And yet those 5 were not able to beat Abilene F'n Christian.

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4 hours ago, Machinator said:

Gerry:

  Hide contents

Was told this AM after posting that TyTy Washington won't be happening due to players coming back at Texas.

That was Texas' plan ... hope to get back two of the three starting guards, add a transfer with experience and set the tables for 2022 recruiting.

 

I was kinda hoping for this.  Way too many guard options in the 2022 class and I don't want anything deterring them from Austin.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, HookEm said:

Have to admit, this take bothers me.  Shaka may not have been the BEST at player development, but I think it is somewhat disrespectful to our players to act like they haven't developed in their time here.  

  • Coleman grew tremendously from his freshman season
  • Sims improved in most categories and has worked his way into the NBA draft conversation
  • Kai Jones was a borderline top-50 recruit and is now primed to go in the lottery
  • Ramey has improved his shooting from 58% to 83% on FTs and 38% to 41% from 3. His defense is also much improved
  • Andrew Jones had his best year last year despite all of his challenges
  • Kerwin Roach improved in just about every statistical category over 4 years
  • Jaxson Hayes wasn't even a top-100 recruit and was drafted top-10

I'm not saying that haven't been misses (Hamm and Liddell being recent examples).  We can certainly get better... I'm just saying we aren't starting from zero. 

ok first off, you cannot give Shaka Smart credit for "developing" guys like Kai Jones and Jaxson Hayes. shit, Shaka should have been playing Kai well before he actually ever did give him minutes, which even then only happened due to injuries. Shaka held Kai back if anything. there is zero evidence that Shaka did squat to enhance the game of either one of those guys while they were here.

you mention Coleman, Jones, Roach, Ramey- these guys are all the same players they were as freshmen, just older and incrementally better. whatever growth they had stemmed from the fact that they were literally full time basketball players who were getting older, stronger, and more experienced every year (save Jones). none of them changed or dramatically improved as players, particularly when it comes to basketball IQ and decision making. i mean those guys you just listed were *terrible* against Abilene Christian. they were the main reason we lost. to claim that any of them "grew tremendously" under Shaka is just plain wrong. in fact you're only proving the point that you've forgotten what actual player development looks like. 

i mean, compare the development of those guys, to the development of the players who Rick Barnes was coaching during the same time period:

‚ÄĘKyle Alexander- ranked #362 in his HS class.¬†a former soccer player from Canada who'd never touched a basketball before his junior year of HS, Alexander became a key player on Tennessee's team that was ranked no.1 in the country for five weeks and went to the S16. he's since had a cup of coffee in the NBA and now plays as a pro in Spain.

‚ÄĘJordan Bone- ranked #171 in his HS class, Bone became an All-SEC player as a junior and led the Vols to a 31-6 record and the aforementioned five week run at no.1 in the country. he left Tennessee after his junior year and was drafted by the Pistons.

‚ÄĘAdmiral Schofield- overweight 3* ranked #251 in the country, was headed to U of Wisconsin at Green Bay before Barnes offered him at Tennessee. Under Barnes he became¬†a two time All-SEC player, an honorable mention All American, and an NBA draft pick.¬†

‚ÄĘGrant Williams- a short, overweight, undersized PF ranked #191 in the country, Williams was headed to Hampton before Rick offered him.¬†Under Barnes he played for three years, was All SEC all three years, and was named back to back SEC POY as a sophomore and junior (first time since Corliss Williamson did it in 1995).¬†Williams left Tennessee after just three years and now plays for the Boston Celtics. Many Vols fans actually consider him to be the best player in program history.¬†

 

THAT is real life player development. Taking a bunch of guys who nobody wanted and turning them into very god major D-1 players, All Americans, and pros/NBA players. Shaka has taken a bunch of HS All Americans and top 5-10 national classes and been unable to either win with them or develop them in any real way. Again, the fact that you actually think that Shaka did a good job developing the talent he was given only proves my point. 

Edited by shadow_operative
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

look at Matt Hill in that video. dude is confident and competent, and is out there getting boards and blocking shots against one of/the best front courts in the country. it's amazing what happens when you actually develop players. 

also, some stat lines from that game:

‚ÄĘDamion James- 25 pts, 15 reb (5 oreb), 4 stl, 1 blk¬†

‚ÄĘDexter Pittman- 23 pts, 15 reb, 2 blk, 5-8 FT

‚ÄĘJ'Covan Brown- 21 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast, 2 stl

‚ÄĘAvery Bradley- 20 pts, 4 reb, 3 stl

 

and you talk about player development? Damion, J'Covan, and Pittman all grew tremendously under Barnes and co. Rach one of them left the program a completely different player than the one he was when he came in. we used to do that here. now, it's been so long since that was the MO of our program that i've damn near forgotten what that feels like.

i'll be honest, i don't know a whole lot about Beard and his assistants as talent developers (although Rodney and Ogden being Barnes disciples seems to bode well), but if he can develop players as well as he recruits then things around are going to get good in a hurry. 

Matt 

Hill

Isn't exactly the player I would hold up as an avatar of player development. 

Matt

Hill

Geezus Christ!!  You couldn't lunchpail that  anymore than you did if you tried.

And I know he's an NBA assistant now so before you try to add that to the ledger of his development it's already been noted.  

Kai Jones-not developed

Jaxson Hayes-not developed

Kerwin Roach-not developed

Jericho Sims-not developed

Matt Coleman-not developed 

But fucking MATT HILL. That muthafucka right here was fucking developed. I mean look at that confidence. 

 

Edited by Catdaddyhorn
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5 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

Matt 

Hill

Isn't exactly the player I would hold up as an avatar of player development. 

Matt

Hill

Geezus Christ!!  You couldn't lunch pail that  anymore than that if you tried.

And I know he's an NBA assistant now so before you try to add that to the ledger of an example of his development it's already been noted.  

you are just the worst sometimes. do you seriously want to start this? and if so- WHY? you're seriously going to completely ignore the paragraph about the development of Damion James, J'Covan Brown, and Dexter Pittman, and make the conscious choice to zero in on one comment about Matt Hill and go off the rails to talk shit to me about it? that's SERIOUSLY what you want to do right now? you can fuck right off with this retarded baiting bullshit. you're such a needling fucking twat sometimes. christ what a beating. 

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2 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

you are just the worst sometimes. do you seriously want to start this? and if so- WHY? you're seriously going to completely ignore the paragraph about the development of Damion James, J'Covan Brown, and Dexter Pittman, and make the conscious choice to zero in on one comment about Matt Hill and go off the rails to talk shit to me about it? that's SERIOUSLY what you want to do right now? you can fuck right off with this retarded baiting bullshit. you're such a needling fucking twat sometimes. christ what a beating. 

You're right I'll do better. I need develop in my life the way Matt fucking Hill was developed on the basketball court. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Catdaddyhorn said:

You're right I'll do better. I need develop in my life the way Matt fucking Hill was developed on the basketball court. 

lmao, you're such a pussy. it's hilarious how every few weeks you pop up with this retarded shit, zeroing in on the tiniest little thing that i've said¬†and trying to make it a huge fucking deal. apparently i live¬†in your head rent free. but yeah, harping on the fucking¬†matt hill comment while ignoring the obvious/larger point and other 98% of the post is just a¬†great call. definitely what everyone in this thread wants to take place. great job derka, real mature. ūüĎćūüŹľ¬†

the fucking gall of this guy to ever complain about me starting shit or ruining a thread...

Edited by shadow_operative
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

lmao, you're such a pussy. it's hilarious how every few weeks you pop up with this retarded shit, zeroing in on the tiniest little thing and trying to make it a huge fucking deal. great job derka, real mature. ūüĎćūüŹľ¬†

I'm honestly joking.  When Matt Hill popped up in a discussion about development in a quoted post of a video where he made A rebound, in his 2.1 second appearance, I literally blurted out laughing and definitely zeroed in on that comment.  That shit was funny to me. I dont even think I read the rest of your post. 

Edited by Catdaddyhorn
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We're just going to have to agree to disagree on the player development. They weren't perfect, but they developed enough to win the Big 12 (tourney), Maui Invitational and finish the season ranked #9. I fault Shaka for not getting our players up for ACU, but our development wasn't the problem in that game. It was as much in-game coaching as anything. If we play them 10 times, we win 9. But we didn't and now Shaka is gone. So probably the best for all involved.

And while Barnes has developed a lot of players over the years, he had his misses as well.  Brad Buckman came in as the #22 recruit and was basically the same player 4 years later.  Justin Mason got worse every single year.  Dogus Balbay never developed an offensive game and was still shooting 57% FT as a junior when he left.  Prince Ibeh only really took off his senior year after Shaka took over and never reached his potential.  Cam Ridley never played like a top-15 recruit (although he did have his moments).

I don't say all that to mean Barnes sucks. He is great if players will stick with the program. Some players just don't reach their potential.  Happens to every coach. 

I think the challenge with Beard will be to KEEP his players since he is going to coach them hard as hell.  Especially in this era.

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18 minutes ago, shadow_operative said:

we don't have to agree to disagree, i can just keep pointing to actual examples of player development and you can continue to ignore the glaring differences in what Barnes did with his scrubs and what Shaka did with his HS all americans.

But surely you must agree that he disagrees with you 

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27 minutes ago, HookEm said:

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on the player development. They weren't perfect, but they developed enough to win the Big 12 (tourney), Maui Invitational and finish the season ranked #9. I fault Shaka for not getting our players up for ACU, but our development wasn't the problem in that game. It was as much in-game coaching as anything. If we play them 10 times, we win 9.

I think the point is that with the caliber of recruits Texas got under Shaka, if the players had been adequately developed then they would have been able to win that game 99 times out of 100 with derka as acting coach. 

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Posted (edited)

If Sims come back and we add that shot blocker from Lamar, our defense will instantly be nasty from word go of the Beard era.   Tariq Owens added a ton to Tech’s defense the year he transferred in and they went to the championship game.  That was really the only time Beard had an athletic shot blocking big on the roster, and it turned things up to 11 for their already very good defense.

Edited by longhornmatt
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jebus said:

I think the point is that with the caliber of recruits Texas got under Shaka, if the players had been adequately developed then they would have been able to win that game 99 times out of 100 with derka as acting coach. 

I know there's a narrative surrounding the Shaka years that he got super elite recruits whom he did nothing with but there's more to the story than that. The one area where Shaka recruited exceptionally well was along the frontline. Jarrett Allen, Mo Bamba, & Will Baker were his best recruits. Addionally he had an eye to latch on early to underrecruited bigs who would later explode on the scene in Kai Jones and Jaxson Hayes. The one elite guard he recruited on par with those aforementioned bigs was Andrew Jones. In cbb, elite bigs are nice to have but they're the salad that comes along with the main course. Nice to have, but hardly essential.

Not recruiting or developing a collection of top tier guards helped lead to Shaka's issues at UT. That and not building a true culture of toughness with players who can consistently excel in the clutch. I remember seeing something that said somewhere around 30% of UTs games during Shaka's tenure were decided by 3 points or less. That mealy mouthed talk of togetherness and connectivity is ok ONLY if it supplements a culture of tough mindedness and resiliency which it obviously didn't under Shaka.

And I dont know whether it was a function of Shaka sort of becoming a head coach too early in his career (dude was only an assistant for 3 years at the power 5 level prior to becoming a head coach) or his overreliance on an analytical approach to the game, but Shaka's time at UT was a monument to getting the broad strokes of basketball but not having a grasp on what it takes to lead young men and set them up to perform their best when the stakes are at their highest. There were too many times to count during his tenure where a really good span of play, be it for a series of games or a series of minutes during a game, would come crashing down into an epic choke job. 

Edited by Catdaddyhorn
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36 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

If Sims come back and we add that shot blocker from Lamar, our defense will instantly be nasty from word go of the Beard era.   Tariq Owens added a ton to Tech’s defense the year he transferred in and they went to the championship game.  That was really the only time Beard had an athletic shot blocking big on the roster, and it turned things up to 11 for their already very good defense.

if only we could bring back Prince Ibeh. 

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40 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

If Sims come back and we add that shot blocker from Lamar, our defense will instantly be nasty from word go of the Beard era.   Tariq Owens added a ton to Tech’s defense the year he transferred in and they went to the championship game.  That was really the only time Beard had an athletic shot blocking big on the roster, and it turned things up to 11 for their already very good defense.

I think I read that Lamar guy is favoring UNLV

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, maninblack said:

Having a competent coaching staff again is such an amazing feeling.

Almost like having a sixth player on the court for the first time in a decade or longer. 

Edited by Blackcat00
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7 hours ago, shadow_operative said:

we don't have to agree to disagree, i can just keep pointing to actual examples of player development and you can continue to ignore the glaring differences in what Barnes did with his scrubs and what Shaka did with his HS all americans.


and neither of them won shit in the tournament since W was president. 

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12 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

If Sims come back and we add that shot blocker from Lamar, our defense will instantly be nasty from word go of the Beard era.   Tariq Owens added a ton to Tech’s defense the year he transferred in and they went to the championship game.  That was really the only time Beard had an athletic shot blocking big on the roster, and it turned things up to 11 for their already very good defense.

Since the so-called defensive guru stayed to coach Tech, who on Beard's Texas staff will be the defensive coach??

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43 minutes ago, texasstrong12 said:

Based on follows it looks like Texas is trying to get involved here. Think Johnson is announcing on Friday. UCLA seems to be the favorite. 

 

 

Jacob Young and Myles Johnson package deal would be badass and make this roster really really fucking talented.  

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Posted (edited)

Hamilton on the roster

Spoiler

This has already been a successful week for Chris Beard and staff with the roster beginning to take shape. The return of Andrew Jones, and the additions of All-Pac-12 First Team forward Timmy Allen and former top 40 prospect and Kentucky combo guard Devin Askew.

The staff is now awaiting the decisions of Jericho Sims, Matt Coleman and Courtney Ramey with hopes of retaining Sims and one of the two guards.

On the recruiting front, the out of state offers in the 2022 class since Beard was hired has gone from one to three after a pair on Wednesday.

Current roster:
CG Devin Askew, 6-3 (6.5 points, 2.5 rebounds, 2.9 assists in 2020-21)

SG Andrew Jones, 6-4 (14.6 points, 4.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists in 2020-21)

SG Jase Febres, 6-5 (5.2 points, 1.5 rebounds in 2020-21)

G/W Jaylon Tyson, 6-6

F Brock Cunningham, 6-5 (1.6 points, 3.1 rebounds in 2020-21)

F Timmy Allen, 6-6 (17.2 points, 6.4 rebounds, 3.9 assists in 2020-21)

Possible to return:
PG Matt Coleman, 6-1 (13.2 points, 3.5 rebounds, 4.0 assists in 2020-21)

CG Courtney Ramey, 6-3 (12.2 points, 3.2 rebounds, 3.9 assists in 2020-21)

PF Jericho Sims, 6-10 (9.2 points, 7.2 rebounds in 2020-21)

Not likely to return:
F Greg Brown, 6-9 (9.3 points, 6.2 rebounds in 2020-21)

Key transfers still in play:
CG Jacob Young, 6-2, Rutgers (14.1 points, 1.9 rebounds, 3.2 assists in 2020-21)

PG Jalen Pickett, 6-3, Sienna (12.9 points, 6.3 rebounds, 4.8 assists in 2020-21)

F Jacob Groves, 6-8, Eastern Washington (9.3 points, 4.3 rebounds in 2020-21)

PF Tanner Groves, 6-9, Eastern Washington (17.2 points, 8.0 rebounds in 2020-21)

C David Muoka, 6-10, Lamar (5.4 points, 6.8 rebounds, 3.0 blocks in 2020-21)

 

Edited by Machinator
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Posted (edited)

Agreed.

Askew/A. Jones/??/Allen/Simms

Fill in the ?? (Ramey or Jacob Young?) and add some more depth (Tanner Groves or Muoka?) and we can talk.  Tyson, Febres, Brock, ??, ?? on the bench. 

Edited by Js1
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