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Captain Picard is back

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16 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

You mean Strong Female Housekeeper and Weak Male Housekeeper?

Is this criticism? If so, I don't understand it. Picard usually surrounded himself with very pliant, but strong women, e.g. Crusher, Troi, or this new blond Dr Juratti. The take-you-down-easy-with-a-smile type. He did not work well with stronger women like Dr. Pulaski. Part of his TNG character arc was to mostly get over this, e.g. his relationship with Ensign Roe. Likewise, Crusher and Troi became more resolute as time passed. We especially see this with the future Crusher when he was enfeebled by Irumodic Syndrome. I think the strong woman housekeeper helps establish that he was not what he was. Raffi reflects the post-Roe character arc. And we'll probably see Juratti have a similar story arc to Crusher. Having strong, established characters ready to step if Patrick Stewart dies mid-production isn't a bad idea at his age. Oh and most of the other TNG men were please-pardon-the-phrase "beta cucks" outside of Riker and usually Worf. Looks like the pilot will take Riker's place. Due to a likely group of hard-headed misfits, I'm also willing to consider this is part of the long-desired (and planned-by-Roddenberry) fall of the Federation storyline.

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Don't you DARE bring up the idea that Stewart could pass away.

 

Regarding the "strong female character" thing. I think he's referring to the fact that many geeky movie reviewers, sci fi in particular, complain that strong female characters are forced on us unnaturally. I don't see it, and I say they should all just chill out. All the characters thus far are just fine.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Don't you DARE bring up the idea that Stewart could pass away.

 

Regarding the "strong female character" thing. I think he's referring to the fact that many geeky movie reviewers, sci fi in particular, complain that strong female characters are forced on us unnaturally. I don't see it, and I say they should all just chill out. All the characters thus far are just fine.

 

 

It's from the youtube reviews that have been posted here and obviously not watched. The reviewer uses the term "Strong Diverse Female Character X" a lot, since it's true. 80% of the characters so far fit the description.

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Love that they are expanding on Romulan culture.  

Like Romulan homes have a false front door, and you’re actually supposed to enter through the back door.  

Just like South Austin’s mom.  

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It's from the youtube reviews that have been posted here and obviously not watched. The reviewer uses the term "Strong Diverse Female Character X" a lot, since it's true. 80% of the characters so far fit the description.
And I get the impression those reviewers are thr misogynist red pill type. Could be wrong though.

Regardless, these women characters I think are just fine.

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19 minutes ago, Parliament said:

And I get the impression those reviewers are thr misogynist red pill type. Could be wrong though.

Regardless, these women characters I think are just fine.

First, I do agree, there are some serious misogynists wring reviews.  Keep in mind, with Critical Drinker's persona, it's like the Red Letter Media reviews of the Star Wars prequels, and the TNG movies - he's using a gimmick to make some serious points

In regards to the Critical Drinker (the two reviews I posted on the previous page), he was using the "weak male housekeeper" and "strong female housekeeper" labels to poke fun at the writers and bitch that we were given no backstory on these characters, but we were supposed to just accept that these people were important to Picard's life and the TV series as a whole, etc., and that Picard would let these people walk all over him.

He mentioned it in the reviews, as well as on his podcast, that in the first few episodes, the main female characters we saw seemed to exist simply to tell Picard what to do/what not to do (housekeeper), and/or just absolutely shit on him (the FNN reporter, Starfleet Admiral, Raffi, etc.), or they were there to be protected by Picard and move the plot along (Dhaj, the AI expert).  Their development felt very uneven.

For instance, the "strong female Starfleet commander who just told Picard he's got a lot of fucking hubris" - the show wasn't telling us why she loathes Picard so much.

Now that we've had the third episode flesh these characters out, and flesh out Picard's backstory, that's all changing.  All of the sudden, the Irish Romulan housekeepers are the most interesting characters in the whole series.  The Starfleet Admiral telling Picard to fuck off makes a lot more sense in light of what happened on Mars.  The fact that Starfleet has been infiltrated, and there is definitely a movement to cripple Starfleet is pulling everything together.

Honestly, I could see some folks checking out of the series by episode 3, but if you made it to the end, you can see what everything just came together A-Team style.

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7 hours ago, Apep said:

Due to a likely group of hard-headed misfits, I'm also willing to consider this is part of the long-desired (and planned-by-Roddenberry) fall of the Federation storyline.

I'm quite willing to entertain this storyline.  They are certainly setting it up, with the Romulan secrets that go way back, with secret organizations, etc.

I'm wondering if the Temporal Cold War will come into play.

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1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

I'm quite willing to entertain this storyline.  They are certainly setting it up, with the Romulan secrets that go way back, with secret organizations, etc.

I'm wondering if the Temporal Cold War will come into play.

I'd guess it ties into Control/Red Angel from Discovery. Both could be related to the Temporal Cold War.

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

For instance, the "strong female Starfleet commander who just told Picard he's got a lot of fucking hubris" - the show wasn't telling us why she loathes Picard so much.

I'm not sure we watched the same show. Didn't the opening dream sequence of the first show establish the destruction of Mars? Didn't the interview establish what Picard had done? And even that was reiterating prior exposition with the housekeepers, IIRC. The admiral's reaction was entirely expected.

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12 hours ago, Apep said:

I'm not sure we watched the same show. Didn't the opening dream sequence of the first show establish the destruction of Mars? Didn't the interview establish what Picard had done? And even that was reiterating prior exposition with the housekeepers, IIRC. The admiral's reaction was entirely expected.

I don’t think Mars itself, or the interview with the FNC reporter ambushing him would have caused the loathing the admiral had for him.  That was some long-standing hate, that had not softened with time.  She wanted him to just go die in a fire right then and there.   She was only hearing him out because many still respected him and/or you have to respect the record, but she clearly didn’t.  She didn’t even try and really persuade him that Starfleet was still capable of doing Good Things.  She followed it up by talking to Starfleet Security about him   

It was like a bad divorce that ended with restraining orders on both parties.

The third episode is where the admiral’s loathing for Picard clicked for me.   Based on her age and current position as CNC, I have no doubt that she was either in the meeting, or worked directly for somebody in the meeting.   That was one helluva meeting.  

One of Starfleet’s most decorated and well-known heroes goes into a meeting with contingency plans to help the Romulans, and Starfleet says no.  He says “well, you can have my resignation, LOL”.  Starfleet says:

spacer.png
 

Then they fire his XO.  I didn’t go back to my TNG manuals and encyclopedias, but I’m fairly certain that Raffi would have needed a good 15-20 years in Starfleet, and most likely been decorated and/or battle-tested, before getting the chance to be Picard’s XO.   For reference, Riker turned down command of his own ship to be Picard’s XO.   Picard could have had his choice of XOs.  

And what really threw me off, was that they just fired her.  Destroyed her career over Picard’s actions. Very unlike Starfleet.   Either that was piss-poor writing and lack of knowledge on the part of the writing staff and producers, or whatever happened in that meeting was so severe,  that they decided she didn’t even deserve to be demoted and made the maintenance officer of some third-line patrol ship out in the boonies, or flying shuttlecraft full of rubber Klingon shit out of the Hong Kong colonies.    They wanted her out of Starfleet   

Which makes me wonder how Riker and the rest of the starters left Starfleet   

I am guessing that meeting will be shown to us later on, perhaps with our knowledge of one or more Romulan infiltrators being there.   And given how harsh the CNC was towards him, I wondered if she was in on the Romulan conspiracy.  On the flip side, she would make a good “Jean Luc, I’m sorry I doubted you, I just discovered the Romulans are at the highest ranks of Starfleet, I’ve got your back, but we have to tread carefully” character.  

Edited by atomheartbevo

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I think you’re missing my point. The first thirty minutes of the show had sufficient exposition to establish that Picard told Starfleet to go fuck themselves, rather noisily, over the Romulan relief effort abandonment. IOW, the interview was evidence of why she loathed him, not why she hated him. Later exposition appears to suggest that he may have even mutinied along with his loyal officers. That might explain why he has Tal Shiar guards on earth. 

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16 hours ago, Parliament said:

And I get the impression those reviewers are thr misogynist red pill type. Could be wrong though.

Regardless, these women characters I think are just fine.

Feel the same.  I normally will call out if the overly PC nature of a show is forcing a type of character down our throat.  Haven't felt that way now.

14 hours ago, Apep said:

I'm not sure we watched the same show. Didn't the opening dream sequence of the first show establish the destruction of Mars? Didn't the interview establish what Picard had done? And even that was reiterating prior exposition with the housekeepers, IIRC. The admiral's reaction was entirely expected.

Agreed.  I think there was sufficient evidence to show why someone in Starfleet would get uppity to Picard.

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1 hour ago, Apep said:

I think you’re missing my point. The first thirty minutes of the show had sufficient exposition to establish that Picard told Starfleet to go fuck themselves, rather noisily, over the Romulan relief effort abandonment. IOW, the interview was evidence of why she loathed him, not why she hated him. Later exposition appears to suggest that he may have even mutinied along with his loyal officers. That might explain why he has Tal Shiar guards on earth. 

Elderly old heroes are allowed to speak their mind though, especially when they get ambushed in an interview.   It just felt like she had been saving that vitriol up for years, and you're right, it's evidence of, and not why she hated him.  If she had been a friend of his in earlier years, I think she would have had a softer tone, and/or tried to convince him that he was wrong.

The "17 members were going to bail on the Federation" or whatever, felt kind of weak, unless it was some of the major members.  I'm guessing it was members near the Neutral Zone, who would definitely be glad to see the Romulans mostly eliminated.  

I agree on the mutiny part - I think that he most likely mutinied in some way.  It would better explain why Raffi was booted out the way she was.  I don't buy that he threw his resignation on the table, they called his bluff and accepted it, and then her career was terminated to the extent she's in a trailer house in the desert, wasting her days away on vaping and boozing.

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1 hour ago, Hank Scorpio said:

No way, Star Trek nerds are arguing about women on the internet?! 

Wait until I tell you about my theory of Agnes being a spy for Starfleet Security.

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Why is the Romulan Free State and the Borg Artifact Research Institute (under Romulan control) running the Romulan Reclamation Project?  When the Zhat Vash are doing everything possible to eliminate anything having to do with synths, AI, hybrids, etc.?

And the Borg are still a threat.

Spoiler

Although Stewart said he wouldn't have come back if they were going to do typical "Borg are back and threatening us" plots.

And Oh is acting like everything is at risk if they don't do something with Soji.

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Are the Borg still a major threat after the events of Voyager? Seven will be in the show, so those events presumably still happened.

I'm not sure what the Reclamation Project angle is. All I can think of is that Borg are an augmented hive mind. They are not synthetics. They are not even AI, though the difference may seem arbitrary. That may be why there isn't a big problem with the project. And Romulans running it actually makes some sense in that they could limit the research to engineering applications outside of AI and synthetic beings. Wasn't the cube also in the Beta Quadrant, so Romulans make perfect sense in that regard.

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23 minutes ago, Apep said:

Are the Borg still a major threat after the events of Voyager? Seven will be in the show, so those events presumably still happened.

I'm not sure what the Reclamation Project angle is. All I can think of is that Borg are an augmented hive mind. They are not synthetics. They are not even AI, though the difference may seem arbitrary. That may be why there isn't a big problem with the project. And Romulans running it actually makes some sense in that they could limit the research to engineering applications outside of AI and synthetic beings. Wasn't the cube also in the Beta Quadrant, so Romulans make perfect sense in that regard.

There is some reason they have Soji working so well with the reclaimed Borg or whatever.  Stepping out of the series and looking at it from a practical angle, it ain't cheap to be doing the effects and sets for the Borg Cube either, so it's obviously important to the storyline.  Excuse me, it's a Borg "artifact" (which is a very curious word to use).

Spoiler

I've seen some wild-ass theories floating around that the Zhat Vash themselves are synthetics, hence their extreme interest in the Borg/Borg Cube, and why they are scared of Soji and her sister exposing them.  Then again, some of these people think the Zhat Vash created the Borg in some way.  I've also seen people talking about how the timelines would have the Zhat Vash predating the Romulan/Vulcan split, which is very interesting.

Like I said

Spoiler

Stewart said he would not come back if the Borg were involved,  it was a simple run-of-the-mill "Borg are the big bogeyman" arc.

 

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"Maybe it's on stun."
"Romulan disruptors...don't have stun setting."

This show is like Mad Men in that it goes slow, then fast, then slow, then fast.

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I watched every TOS episode in syndication.  Caught most of TNG and DS9 in first-run, or reruns.  Voyager and Enterprise, caught a lot of episodes, but missed plenty, and tried to fill in later on (was not in a ST phase or mood when they aired).   

Watched TNG’s I, Borg last night.  Thinking about making Voyager my “tv show on in the background while I’m working or doing other stuff” and kind of watching it through, from start to finish.  

I just wasn’t as keen on Voyager and Enterprise (although I enjoyed the temporal stuff, but hated how they shit on it with its last episode), but maybe I need to give Voyager another shot.  

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What kind of numbers do y'all think this would pull on regular CBS?

I don't watch anything on the network channels besides sports. All the tv shows I watch now are on netflix, Prime, Picard on CBS All Access, etc. Seems like there would be a market for, you know, good programming. 

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2 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

I've heard rumors of Picard eventually migrating over to Showtime Streaming. Has anybody else heard this? 

1 hour ago, Parliament said:

Seems they wanna use the Treks to compe...force people to subscribe to the online channel.

What Parliament said.  CBS has multiple Trek shows in development and production.  They aren’t going to yank the flagship Trek show for Showtime.   

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2 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

What Parliament said.  CBS has multiple Trek shows in development and production.  They aren’t going to yank the flagship Trek show for Showtime.   

ViacomCBS owns Showtime. I think everything will eventually get bundled. 

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8 hours ago, billfromlaketravis said:

ViacomCBS owns Showtime. I think everything will eventually get bundled. 

This is where my thinking is at as well. No one wants to have 73 different streaming services that costs as much or more than cable did. So I think a conglomerate will get a deal going to have them put forward proposals to be able to package their streaming services together. Doing it this way would mean they might not make as much from each individual account like they do now, but instead make up for it with having the volume of accounts go up since no one is trying to pick between "this one or that one" anymore. Which makes a lot of sense and everyone wins.

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On 2/8/2020 at 2:18 PM, rage-a-holic said:

source.gif

Not sure what this is in reference too.  I think the pushing of certain cultures, genders, and lifestyles are too much in most shows/movies, and will say as much.  In this show I don't feel that way.

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I've actually read some modern SF and witnessed the puerile push for diversity. I followed along as it took an okay pulp series and ground it to dust under an overweening interest in sexuality. ST, both Discovery and Picard, don't even move the needle. Well, Discovery's season 2 close was about as childish as the end of the David Tennant-era Doctor Who, but not because of diversity, just shitty episodic writing. Picard? We haven't seen enough eps to know whether it is that shitty.

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Episode 4 speeds the plot up just a bit, but it looks like they open the throttle next week.

Doctor whatshername is annoying.  Captain whatshisname is the best character in the show.

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14 hours ago, Parliament said:

Episode 4 speeds the plot up just a bit, but it looks like they open the throttle next week.

Doctor whatshername is annoying.  Captain whatshisname is the best character in the show.

I love Rios and his holograms.  Just like I loved Discovery’s  Pike.  They need their own shows.  

The pacing through these four episodes has been...deliberate and measured.   The worldbuilding and character development has been thorough.   Hell, Sohji barely had any screen time, because they were developing these other characters.  

Edited by atomheartbevo

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Okay, thoughts.  

Spoiler
  1. Romulans seem a bit incesty
  2. like the Seven of Nine intro
  3. Thought it would be a Klingon Bird of Prey   Loved that it’s a TOS Romulan Bird of Prey  
  4. Freecloud looks awesome
  5. Next weeks episode feels like a classic holodeck episode from TNG, just bigger
  6. HOLY SHIT, I DIDN'T KNOW I NEEDED PIMP RIOS IN MY LIFE

 

Edited by atomheartbevo

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They are not holding back on Picard getting old, and Picard failing a lot of people.  This is like a healthier Professor X from Logan.  They’ve taken him off of the pedestal a lot of fans had him on.  

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So Picard, who is no longer Borg and has lost almost all those memories, instantly recognizes 7 of 9?

Was this explained in the TOS animated series or comic book?

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23 minutes ago, rage-a-holic said:

So Picard, who is no longer Borg and has lost almost all those memories, instantly recognizes 7 of 9?

Was this explained in the TOS animated series or comic book?

I think this is most likely from her returning with Voyager and his learning of her during his time as an Admiral. They share a strong connection with both being formerly members of the Borg. I doubt it's from when he was assimilated.

 

47 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Okay, thoughts.  

  Hide contents
  1. Romulans seem a bit incesty
  2. like the Seven of Nine intro
  3. Thought it would be a Klingon Bird of Prey   Loved that it’s a TOS Romulan Bird of Prey  
  4. Freecloud looks awesome
  5. Next weeks episode feels like a classic holodeck episode from TNG, just bigger
  6. HOLY SHIT, I DIDN'T KNOW I NEEDED PIMP RIOS IN MY LIFE

 

#4 isn't what you thought it was. Rewatch and note the line about making a "pit stop"

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3 minutes ago, HOOK'EMHOOAH said:

#4 isn't what you thought it was. Rewatch and note the line about making a "pit stop"

I was referring to the exclusive clip that Wesley Wil Wheaton showed.  
 

Spoiler

The clip that showed literal pop-up ads.

 

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8 hours ago, rage-a-holic said:

So Picard, who is no longer Borg and has lost almost all those memories, instantly recognizes 7 of 9?

Was this explained in the TOS animated series or comic book?

Well they are both 2 of the most famous Borg converts so....yes? 

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On 2/13/2020 at 11:09 PM, rage-a-holic said:

So Picard, who is no longer Borg and has lost almost all those memories, instantly recognizes 7 of 9?

Was this explained in the TOS animated series or comic book?

Man Rage, you're really leaning into your screen name.  There's been almost 20 years since Voyager got back...you don't think someone as prominent as Picard would at least have crossed paths with another Borg convert at some point in time?  Even if it was just debriefing?

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40 minutes ago, Drew said:

Man Rage, you're really leaning into your screen name.  There's been almost 20 years since Voyager got back...you don't think someone as prominent as Picard would at least have crossed paths with another Borg convert at some point in time?  Even if it was just debriefing?

Plus, we know Picard crossed paths with Janeway. 

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I watched part of it again, and the part where he finds out he has 7 minutes left before they can beam him up was an absolute shitty scene.  Perhaps the most piss-poor writing so far this season.  

All Picard has to do is kill 7 minutes.  7 minutes.    Instead of just hanging back from the crowds, maybe try and strike up a conversation with an individual, instead he deliberately fucks with the Romulans and throws the sign on the ground and walks on it, and he goads them into a confrontation.   He gets one fucking decapitated.  

The scene felt like the writers wrote themselves into a corner with Picard leaving the monastery after he was turned down, and they said “hey, let’s have Picard deliberately fuck with this local culture, and the young guy will come in, kick some ass, take a head off somebody, and then Picard and he beam out at the last second.”

It just didn’t feel like something that Picard would do.  

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I interpret it different. He was mad at how far the Romulans had fallen. So he marched in there and made a scene. Almost died for it. I think the scene reinforced his anger and guilt, and gave us a deeper yet view of Romulan culture now.

That said...
The last dialogue and acting of 2 most episodes' prologues (Picard and Raffi after he resigned, and Picard with young Elnor) have been sub-par. Sub par in a way I can't describe. Forced exposition? Trying too hard to show how much he softened? Dunno, but I wasn't a fan.

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It's just shitty episodic writing, which was a big problem on Discovery, too. We can have Picard haunted by an Elnor dream sequence episodes before we meet the character. We don't need forced exposition at the beginning of the same episode.

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I just cant get into it. Loved TNG and all things Picard but this just seems forced.

First ep was good then 3 episodes of Picard's 11. Expected Cheadle to show up, "Picard, you son of a bitch. I'm in."

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Episode 5 is the weakest of the series.

 

It was aweful easy to get to Jazel.  Twice.  If she's so badass you'd think she'd have better security.

Woah, plot twist with Jurati!  No way!  This show was doing so well without plot twist tricks.

 

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