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Making a Murderer: Part 2 (Netflix)


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18 hours ago, McFly said:

Finished the series and then read 221 pages of the motion for post conviction relief. A lot in there they don’t cover in the series. Very interesting read. Spoiler alert: she makes a case for Ryan Hillegas as the killer. And has anyone tracked down the white Jeep?

Is that Bobby’s vehicle?  If so, it has been crushed and disposed of according to zellner. 

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3 hours ago, pepper brooks said:

Is that Bobby’s vehicle?  If so, it has been crushed and disposed of according to zellner. 

No.  Bobby's vehicle was a dark colored SUV, a Blazer, I believe.  

One witness said they saw the Rav and a White Jeep driving together on November 4 and entering the  Radnant quarry.

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On 11/4/2018 at 9:12 PM, SpiralOut said:

Whether or not Avery killed Halbach can be debated.  I think it's highly unlikely he did, but you can't ever know for sure unless someone comes out and confesses to it. 

What isn't up for debate is the following:

Dassey didn't do shit.  He was coerced into giving the cops the story they wanted to hear.  Nothing he said made any fucking sense until the cops fed him information and then had him spit it back out at them.  They had zero physical evidence Dassey was involved with Halbach's murder. 

Dassey had completely ineffective council.  His lawyer was a fucking moron and was actively fucking him over.

There was evidence planted, manipulated, and withheld all to make sure Avery went down for the crime. 

Dassey was convicted on a confession that told a story of a lady being tied up, raped, throat cut, disemboweled, and then shot in the head.  Avery was convicted on an entirely different story.  So the State doesn't even have a coherent and sane story backed by evidence.  According to them, this lady was killed two different ways.

The State had motive to make sure Avery went down for the crime.  Several million motives. 

The authorities never once considered anyone else for the crime.  Halbach had a creepy ex-boyfriend that was never a suspect.  There are a horde of other people that live out on the Avery property.  None of them were even slightly looked at as suspects (besides bamboozling Brendan Dassey to help them convict Steven Avery).  Not even the guy who lived right next to Steven who had child porn, murder porn, and tons of pics of dead women on his computer. 

I think it'd be nice to know who actually killed Halbach, but really that's not the point of all of this.  The point is that two guys got fucking railroaded by corrupt, small town authorities and then the entire State judicial apparatus just said fuck it, we don't care and decided to let both of these guys sit in prison.  The cornerstone of our judicial system is that you're supposed to get a fair trial.  Neither Dassey or Avery got that.  Even if they both committed the crime exactly BOTH ways Ken Kratz says they did (hint: they didn't), they should walk because of all the misconduct.

At the end the Corononer mentions the calls for her not to testify being "conflict of interest, 36$million dollars" and it's pretty telling the State wanted it covered up that she was railroaded and not allowed access to the body or bones.  

This is an egregious case of the State acting with impunity to protect themselves (and as you mentioned the money.) 

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1 thing I've been thinking about.. Is the incompetent Sherriff's department and prosecutors capable of pulling off such a grand conspiracy without a huge fuckup somewhere? That's where I have some doubts. They are not the brightest in the bunch for one.. And a conspiracy would have involved 4-12 of them.. That's alot of room for error to pull off their plan.. 

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11 hours ago, texashorne said:

1 thing I've been thinking about.. Is the incompetent Sherriff's department and prosecutors capable of pulling off such a grand conspiracy without a huge fuckup somewhere? That's where I have some doubts. They are not the brightest in the bunch for one.. And a conspiracy would have involved 4-12 of them.. That's alot of room for error to pull off their plan.. 

dude, there does not have to be some huge conspiracy for somebody to get railroaded. the system is not set up to actually find justice. these people are all on the same team, they don't have to conspire to cover for each other. small town cops railroading a poor family that's unpopular in the town doesn't require an ocean's 11 type of caper. it's too easy to pull off.

also, they did fuck up, in like a thousand ways that kathleen zellner laid out pretty clearly. i mean, one example of an ENORMOUS fuck up is that fat fuck kratz giving that press conference and sticking with the story of a grisly, gruesome, incredibly violent and bloody murder for which there's is *zero evidence*. the forensics prove beyond any doubt that the prosecution's case was 100% fantasy, and yet people still have doubts. 

 

jesus this subject grinds my gears. 

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

dude, there does not have to be some huge conspiracy for somebody to get railroaded. the system is not set up to actually find justice. these people are all on the same team, they don't have to conspire to cover for each other. small town cops railroading a poor family that's unpopular in the town doesn't require an ocean's 11 type of caper. it's too easy to pull off.

also, they did fuck up, in like a thousand ways that kathleen zellner laid out pretty clearly. i mean, one example of an ENORMOUS fuck up is that fat fuck kratz giving that press conference and sticking with the story of a grisly, gruesome, incredibly violent and bloody murder for which there's is *zero evidence*. the forensics prove beyond any doubt that the prosecution's case was 100% fantasy, and yet people still have doubts. 

 

jesus this subject grinds my gears. 

Yeah, it ain't like these podunk cops and lawyers had to be moustache-twirling super geniuses. 

They spent WEEKS out at the Avery property.  It wasn't like they had to think all this shit up on the fly and get all their stories straight overnight.  They knew they wanted to convict Avery but didn't have enough evidence to do so.  So they drop a bullet, they drop a car key, smear some blood/DNA of Avery's they already had in their possession, and feed a mentally challenged 16-year old some info and get it on tape as a "confession" so it can magically line up with this new evidence they find.  Kratz holds a press conference to skew public opinion against Avery and lies about the value of some evidence so the defense doesn't go after it. 

Who exactly has to be involved in that conspiracy?  It isn't hundreds to thousands of people as would be required to fake a moon landing or 9/11.  It's maybe 3-5 people, max.  All of whom are insulated from any consequences and highly motivated to make sure this comes off the way they want. 

And yeah, they fucked up all over the place.  It wasn't like they smooth criminaled this shit. 

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13 hours ago, texashorne said:

1 thing I've been thinking about.. Is the incompetent Sherriff's department and prosecutors capable of pulling off such a grand conspiracy without a huge fuckup somewhere? That's where I have some doubts. They are not the brightest in the bunch for one.. And a conspiracy would have involved 4-12 of them.. That's alot of room for error to pull off their plan.. 

their fuck ups are all over the place. really not hard to find. however, the judge didnt allow for the fuck ups to be introduced during the trial. like...one dude was convicted of theory 1 and the state is trying to convict our client on theory 2. this isnt that hard. there are harder cases around the USA...this isnt one of them.

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finished it up last night.  it was heartbreaking watching the dassey situation play out over the season knowing the end result. 

glad to see that both the WI governor and AG were voted out of office on tuesday.  hopefully that helps.  there are a lot of people in manitowoc who deserve to face the music.

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23 hours ago, texashorne said:

1 thing I've been thinking about.. Is the incompetent Sherriff's department and prosecutors capable of pulling off such a grand conspiracy without a huge fuckup somewhere? That's where I have some doubts. They are not the brightest in the bunch for one.. And a conspiracy would have involved 4-12 of them.. That's alot of room for error to pull off their plan.. 

You mean like....

Sgt Andrew Colborn - Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office: On Nov. 8, 2005, Colborn accompanied Lenk to re-search the inside of Avery's bedroom even though the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office was not supposed to be directly involved in the murder investigation because of a conflict of interest. After Lenk and Colborn were inside the bedroom, a RAV4 key was found next to Avery's bed. The key was later determined to contain Avery's DNA. Only weeks before Halbach vanished, Colborn was questioned by civil rights lawyers as part of Avery's $36 million lawsuit against Manitowoc County. 

Lt. James Lenk - Lenk thrust himself into the Teresa Halbach investigation from the outset, even though her disappearance was reported to the neighboring Calumet County Sheriff's Office, not Manitowoc County. Lenk discovered a key to Halbach's RAV4 on the carpeted floor of Avery's bedroom even though the room had been searched by Calumet County investigators numerous times beforehand. Lenk was also on the Avery property four months later when a fragmented bullet was discovered inside of Avery's garage, days after authorities arrested Avery's nephew, Brendan, in connection with the murder. 

Ken Kratz: Holding a press conference a day after Dassey's "confession" detailing the supposed crime, prejuciding the jury pool. 

Len Kachinsky: Kachinsky was the initial public defender appointed to represent Brendan Dassey, the 16-year-old nephew of Steven Avery. In 2006, Kachinsky was removed from the Halbach case and replaced with a different lawyer because Kachinsky allowed Dassey to be interviewed by homicide investigators without an attorney present.

Michael O'Kelly: the private investigator retained by Kachinsky. O'Kelly pressured teenage defendant Brendan Dassey into admitting guilt and incriminating Avery in the murder of Halbach even though Dassey insisted he was innocent. O'Kelly ordered Dassey to sign a form that required Dassey to admit his involvement in the Halbach murder. 

Patrick Willis: the Manitowoc County judge who handled the courtroom proceedings in the Avery trial.  Leading up to the trial, Willis rejected numerous pretrial motions raised by Avery's lawyers, Jerome Buting and Dean Strang. Notably, Willis denied their request to present evidence of an alternative suspect other than Avery's co-defendant, Brendan Dassey. He also excluded the county coroner from testiying. 

Should I go on?

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17 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

You mean like....

Sgt Andrew Colborn - Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office: On Nov. 8, 2005, Colborn accompanied Lenk to re-search the inside of Avery's bedroom even though the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office was not supposed to be directly involved in the murder investigation because of a conflict of interest. After Lenk and Colborn were inside the bedroom, a RAV4 key was found next to Avery's bed. The key was later determined to contain Avery's DNA. Only weeks before Halbach vanished, Colborn was questioned by civil rights lawyers as part of Avery's $36 million lawsuit against Manitowoc County. 

Lt. James Lenk - Lenk thrust himself into the Teresa Halbach investigation from the outset, even though her disappearance was reported to the neighboring Calumet County Sheriff's Office, not Manitowoc County. Lenk discovered a key to Halbach's RAV4 on the carpeted floor of Avery's bedroom even though the room had been searched by Calumet County investigators numerous times beforehand. Lenk was also on the Avery property four months later when a fragmented bullet was discovered inside of Avery's garage, days after authorities arrested Avery's nephew, Brendan, in connection with the murder. 

Ken Kratz: Holding a press conference a day after Dassey's "confession" detailing the supposed crime, prejuciding the jury pool. 

Len Kachinsky: Kachinsky was the initial public defender appointed to represent Brendan Dassey, the 16-year-old nephew of Steven Avery. In 2006, Kachinsky was removed from the Halbach case and replaced with a different lawyer because Kachinsky allowed Dassey to be interviewed by homicide investigators without an attorney present.

Michael O'Kelly: the private investigator retained by Kachinsky. O'Kelly pressured teenage defendant Brendan Dassey into admitting guilt and incriminating Avery in the murder of Halbach even though Dassey insisted he was innocent. O'Kelly ordered Dassey to sign a form that required Dassey to admit his involvement in the Halbach murder. 

Patrick Willis: the Manitowoc County judge who handled the courtroom proceedings in the Avery trial.  Leading up to the trial, Willis rejected numerous pretrial motions raised by Avery's lawyers, Jerome Buting and Dean Strang. Notably, Willis denied their request to present evidence of an alternative suspect other than Avery's co-defendant, Brendan Dassey. He also excluded the county coroner from testiying. 

Should I go on?

I mean like 1 of them buckling under pressure and admitting the conspiracy. Should have been more clear. Huge fuck up, not small fuck ups listed above that have not garnered an overturning of Avery's conviction. 

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I think Avery not getting a new trial is more about how corrupt the judicial system is and how Wisconsin doesn't want to look like idiots so they are doubling down and denying anything they can.

Kent Kratz doesn't have to be in on anything, the conspiracy imo is with the county sheriff department crew, they could have easily planted evidence(since it was always them who magically found shit) and Kratz could prosecute off the evidence and story he was given. 3-4 people could easily have pulled this off without others knowing about it at all. They have access to Avery blood and his toothbrushes for the other DNA swabs. It's very clear some bullshit went down more than pure evidence that makes sense that avery did it.

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how about the witness who saw halbach's SUV (not on avery's property) and told a police officer where he saw.  that officer just so happened to be andrew colburn.

even without the piece of information about the witness who saw the SUV, avery's trial lawyers were still able to see that there was something fishy about this:

just watch this piece of shit's facial expressions when he realizes the trial lawyers know he was looking at the license plates when he called them in.

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51 minutes ago, Rockethorn1978 said:

I think Avery not getting a new trial is more about how corrupt the judicial system is and how Wisconsin doesn't want to look like idiots so they are doubling down and denying anything they can.

Kent Kratz doesn't have to be in on anything, the conspiracy imo is with the county sheriff department crew, they could have easily planted evidence(since it was always them who magically found shit) and Kratz could prosecute off the evidence and story he was given. 3-4 people could easily have pulled this off without others knowing about it at all. They have access to Avery blood and his toothbrushes for the other DNA swabs. It's very clear some bullshit went down more than pure evidence that makes sense that avery did it.

True about Kratz not having to know for it to be done but Zellner showed where he mislabeled evidence during discovery multiple times, which precluded Strang and Buting from seeing Bobby Dassey was searching for things like 'knife entering body' and 'horsecum.' Intentionally or not, I think this puts Kratz in the conspiracy. 

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2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

You mean like....

Sgt Andrew Colborn - Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office: On Nov. 8, 2005, Colborn accompanied Lenk to re-search the inside of Avery's bedroom even though the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office was not supposed to be directly involved in the murder investigation because of a conflict of interest. After Lenk and Colborn were inside the bedroom, a RAV4 key was found next to Avery's bed. The key was later determined to contain Avery's DNA. Only weeks before Halbach vanished, Colborn was questioned by civil rights lawyers as part of Avery's $36 million lawsuit against Manitowoc County. 

Lt. James Lenk - Lenk thrust himself into the Teresa Halbach investigation from the outset, even though her disappearance was reported to the neighboring Calumet County Sheriff's Office, not Manitowoc County. Lenk discovered a key to Halbach's RAV4 on the carpeted floor of Avery's bedroom even though the room had been searched by Calumet County investigators numerous times beforehand. Lenk was also on the Avery property four months later when a fragmented bullet was discovered inside of Avery's garage, days after authorities arrested Avery's nephew, Brendan, in connection with the murder. 

Ken Kratz: Holding a press conference a day after Dassey's "confession" detailing the supposed crime, prejuciding the jury pool. 

Len Kachinsky: Kachinsky was the initial public defender appointed to represent Brendan Dassey, the 16-year-old nephew of Steven Avery. In 2006, Kachinsky was removed from the Halbach case and replaced with a different lawyer because Kachinsky allowed Dassey to be interviewed by homicide investigators without an attorney present.

Michael O'Kelly: the private investigator retained by Kachinsky. O'Kelly pressured teenage defendant Brendan Dassey into admitting guilt and incriminating Avery in the murder of Halbach even though Dassey insisted he was innocent. O'Kelly ordered Dassey to sign a form that required Dassey to admit his involvement in the Halbach murder. 

Patrick Willis: the Manitowoc County judge who handled the courtroom proceedings in the Avery trial.  Leading up to the trial, Willis rejected numerous pretrial motions raised by Avery's lawyers, Jerome Buting and Dean Strang. Notably, Willis denied their request to present evidence of an alternative suspect other than Avery's co-defendant, Brendan Dassey. He also excluded the county coroner from testiying. 

Should I go on?

All of those people are probably all in on the conspiracy, but some may have just been stupid (Kachinsky) or attention seeking (Kratz) that they fit right in without knowing

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1 hour ago, BigOrange1 said:

how about the witness who saw halbach's SUV (not on avery's property) and told a police officer where he saw.  that officer just so happened to be andrew colburn.

even without the piece of information about the witness who saw the SUV, avery's trial lawyers were still able to see that there was something fishy about this:

just watch this piece of shit's facial expressions when he realizes the trial lawyers know he was looking at the license plates when he called them in.

absolutely unreal.  You can feel this guys a$$hole clinch that seat cushion and turn it into a freaking diamond when he's caught in that lie.  It's so damn obvious.  I think the defense attorney did a pretty poor job of going for the jugular there.  He had him by the nads, and basically softballed the thing.  He needed to realize his jury pool was not a bunch of people who were going to process a subtle hint of impropriety here.  They needed to be beaten over the head with it.  

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23 hours ago, lateshow said:

After watching season 2, I'm positive that Avery did not do this. It's that weird ass Bobby and Scott.

I'm still not sure. I asked myself if I would leave Avery alone with my kids.. Answer was no. A small part of me thinks he may have done it and the authorities planted evidence to cast doubt. Either way, a very messed up situation. 

If it's ever proven he is innocent, all involved in the conspiracy should face a lifetime in jail; especially if the true killer has killed again. The blood is on their hands.  

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23 minutes ago, texashorne said:

I'm still not sure. I asked myself if I would leave Avery alone with my kids.. Answer was no. A small part of me thinks he may have done it and the authorities planted evidence to cast doubt. Either way, a very messed up situation. 

If it's ever proven he is innocent, all involved in the conspiracy should face a lifetime in jail; especially if the true killer has killed again. The blood is on their hands.  

Is he a creep? Absolutely. His history outside of this case, and the one he was falsely imprisoned for, backs that up. Doesn't make him a killer, in this case in particular. 

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33 minutes ago, texashorne said:

I'm still not sure. I asked myself if I would leave Avery alone with my kids.. Answer was no. A small part of me thinks he may have done it and the authorities planted evidence to cast doubt. Either way, a very messed up situation. 

If it's ever proven he is innocent, all involved in the conspiracy should face a lifetime in jail; especially if the true killer has killed again. The blood is on their hands.  

Um, they didn't plant evidence to cast doubt. Planting evidence was intended to remove doubt. Their case sucked without it, and without Brendon's coerced confession.

Edited by Deej
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4 minutes ago, Deej said:

How does a guy like Avery do such a fantastic job of cleaning up multiple areas of the supposed crime. He looks like he bathes once a month. Did he call the Wolf?

That's the one thing that drives me nuts about Brendan's confession. He said they raped her, stabbed her, slit her throat in the house, then took her to the garage and shot her and yet not one drop of blood or hair from the victim was found in the house or garage.

Also when the hell did her blood get in the car? Did they use the car to drive her from the house to the garage before they shot her? Or from the garage  to the fire pit?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, blacklab said:

slit herÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅ throat in the ÔĽŅhouÔĽŅse

This right here would create a ton of blood that would soak into the carpet and probably into the particle board below. Not to mention any splatter. You are telling me they cleaned up every last bit but he left a smudge right next to the ignition. Please. 

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I had 2 black labs that played pretty rough with each other. One day when I wasn't home they were roughhousing and one bit the other in the ear and it wouldn't stop bleeding. She of course was going all over the house shaking her head and slinging blood everywhere. I cleaned for hours when I got home and hours the next day. I was still finding blood splatters for 10 years after that day.

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The other thing about the Rav is all of the blood looks like it was painted on in nice streaks.  There's no way the one by the ignition would have been that neat if it was from his finger cut brushing against it.  Same for the one inside the door frame.  That bugged me after the first season before Zellner did all the experiments in the last one.  There's no way in hell those spots came from Avery.

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On 11/8/2018 at 11:45 AM, texashorne said:

I mean like 1 of them buckling under pressure and admitting the conspiracy. Should have been more clear. Huge fuck up, not small fuck ups listed above that have not garnered an overturning of Avery's conviction. 

What would any of them have to gain by confessing? It's not like you or me confessing to get a lesser charge from the prosecutor's office......these people are the prosecution. They have no incentive but to lie until the bitter end, which they have done and will continue to do. This case drives me crazy thinking about that boy being locked up for years just so these pompous assholes can claim a victory over Steven Avery. Hopefully, some new leadership in the state government will result in the reversal in this travesty of justice. I'm not holding my breath

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2 hours ago, blacklab said:

I had 2 black labs that played pretty rough with each other. One day when I wasn't home they were roughhousing and one bit the other in the ear and it wouldn't stop bleeding. She of course was going all over the house shaking her head and slinging blood everywhere. I cleaned for hours when I got home and hours the next day. I was still finding blood splatters for 10 years after that day.

I had a ketchup bottle explode(don't ask), and some splattered on my ceiling. I worked on that for hours and you can still see the faint stain if you look hard. Fucking ketchup. A slit throat would've caused so much blood in that bedroom, it would've taken a professional hazmat team to clean it up. So ridiculous that they convicted either of them on this scenario. 

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Solid and interesting live twitter action today from Zellner.  Lays out lots of new evidence, theory, and a pretty solid timeline of when Halbach was murdered.  New evidence on the Rav 4 battery situation is interesting in that they have apparently proven the battery was replaced in the car after the murder.  It was replaced with the wrong size battery, and one that would be used for...….a crown Victoria.  

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Solid and interesting live twitter action today from Zellner.  Lays out lots of new evidence, theory, and a pretty solid timeline of when Halbach was murdered.  New evidence on the Rav 4 battery situation is interesting in that they have apparently proven the battery was replaced in the car after the murder.  It was replaced with the wrong size battery, and one that would be used for...….a crown Victoria.  


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On 11/9/2018 at 4:19 PM, Telegraph_it said:

This right here would create a ton of blood that would soak into the carpet and probably into the particle board below. Not to mention any splatter. You are telling me they cleaned up every last bit but he left a smudge right next to the ignition. Please. 

That was what was so (sadly) funny from the first MAM.  Kratz wants you to simultaneously believe that Steven Avery is a genius, criminal mastermind and a fucking complete idiot.

He supposedly brutally murders this gal in his trailer/garage with Dassey, but there's neither hide nor hair to be found of her there.  Which would require cleaners from the John Wick universe to coverup. 

At the same time we're told to believe that he leaves his blood smeared in plain sight in her car, does dick all to hide/get rid of her car except throw some branches on it, and then burns/dumps some of her bones right behind his place AFTER making sure there are burnt bones at the quarry, over behind another house, and just here there and everywhere.  Oh, and we're also to believe that after meticulously cleaning every square inch of that trailer, Steven magically forgets her car key on the floor of his trailer in plain sight.  Not plain enough to be noticed the first five or so times they searched it, only on the sixth when a certain detective "finds" it.  A trailer that's the whopping 25 feet long by 10 or so wide.  Must have been like searching for a needle in the haystack that is the Pacific Ocean.

So is Avery a fucking dimwitted moron or is he a cold, calculating, moustache twirling villain?  Maybe he's just fucking innocent and the prosecution's case was bullshit top to bottom.

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8 hours ago, SpiralOut said:

That was what was so (sadly) funny from the first MAM.  Kratz wants you to simultaneously believe that Steven Avery is a genius, criminal mastermind and a fucking complete idiot.

He supposedly brutally murders this gal in his trailer/garage with Dassey, but there's neither hide nor hair to be found of her there.  Which would require cleaners from the John Wick universe to coverup. 

At the same time we're told to believe that he leaves his blood smeared in plain sight in her car, does dick all to hide/get rid of her car except throw some branches on it, and then burns/dumps some of her bones right behind his place AFTER making sure there are burnt bones at the quarry, over behind another house, and just here there and everywhere.  Oh, and we're also to believe that after meticulously cleaning every square inch of that trailer, Steven magically forgets her car key on the floor of his trailer in plain sight.  Not plain enough to be noticed the first five or so times they searched it, only on the sixth when a certain detective "finds" it.  A trailer that's the whopping 25 feet long by 10 or so wide.  Must have been like searching for a needle in the haystack that is the Pacific Ocean.

So is Avery a fucking dimwitted moron or is he a cold, calculating, moustache twirling villain?  Maybe he's just fucking innocent and the prosecution's case was bullshit top to bottom.

after meticulously cleaning that trailer of all skin cells, blood, hair, etc...he replaces every single particle of dust back to its rightful place.

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4 hours ago, riloh05 said:

after meticulously cleaning that trailer of all skin cells, blood, hair, etc...he replaces every single particle of dust back to its rightful place.

Yeah, seeing those crime scene photos of his trailer you know he'd never once cleaned it in his life. 

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Great recent article on the subject. Shows what a real shitbag and habitual liar Kratz is.  My favorite part of the article:

Zellner, added: “Mr Kratz has no legal authority as a suspended attorney to be commenting on any aspect of the pending Avery appeal"

Quote

 

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