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As reported elsewhere, I am about to be on my fourth "thin and light" or ultrabook in five years.  One Toshiba and 2 Macbooks.  $2800.  Admittedly, one was my fault.

I'm done with Apple.

I am used to i5, 8GB RAM performance and a 128GB SSD with OSX.  I am used to 13"  screens.  Don't need anything bigger.  It's a glorified typewriter, but I do fairly heavy duty documents, frequently with a lot of images.

I don't want to spend more than 1K.  I probably shouldn't spend that given my recent history wth ultrabooks.  Some candidates are:  Lenovo Yoga 930/920, X1 Carbon (5th Gen), Surface 2,  XPS13.  But these are the same type things that have been fucking me for the last 5 years, for the same ~$1000 price tag.

What else should I be looking at?

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Yes to the XPS 13.   I was kind of hesitate to go back to Windows platform machine because I'd been using Mac, but I needed something for my work and didn't want to have to spend the $$$ on a MacBook .  It's been a good laptop to take on the go and the battery life is remarkably good.   

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i've purchased for my family 2 acers, 4 dells, and 1 lenovo.  my price target was always $3-500 for I-cores and 8 GB rams.  i didn't care about the hard drive because i would always replace with a ~500 GB SSD.  i did buy an XPS 13 for my daughter for her high school graduation.  I5 7th gen, 8GB RAM, and a 256 SSD for $630.  

i'm only buying XPS's from now on.  they are amazing laptops.  if you are patient, rakuten sometimes has great deals on XPS 13 and 15s.  i'm waiting for my 15' dell 7000 series laptop to die (might take a long ass time) so that i can buy a XPS 15.

or......

get the huawei matebooks.  the matebook D 14' specifically.  the matebooks have some great reviews.  you can sometimes find the matebook d for $520ish on newegg.

 

Edited by crash_davis

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Big ultrabook fan.  I've had a shitload of Mac Airs, Macbook Retina, etc.  Currently bouncing around between the Huawei Matebook X Pro, Dell Latitude 7390, Lenovo X1 Carbon 6th gen.  Wife also has a Surface albeit 2-in-1 rather than laptop.

Huawei - 14" screen in 13" chassis.  great screen.  great audio.  tiny bezels.  really nice for multimedia stuff.  very sleek and compact.  ultrafast fingerprint reader.  but physical build quality isnt great -- creaks and flex.  poor ventilation design means it overheats and charges slow.  great potential but disappointing.

Lenovo - only had for a week and im really disappointing by battery consumption.  has many screens options including matte screen which is great.  14" screen and footprint, but thin and light.  prefer these rubberized build and chassis to metal ones (unless its apple, which knows how to build chassis right).  has privacy cover for screen which is cool.  has fingerprint reader (tho doesnt work as well as huawei).  speakers are really really bad.  if you buy new, list price is expensive relative to competitors.

Microsoft - proprietary charger which is a BIG NO from me.  all the other machines use usb-c charging.  also port selection sucks - single usb-A.  otherwise great machine.

Dell - the biggest surprise for me.  ive used tons of dells for work and hated them all.  this machine is tits - solid feel in hand, good performance, awesome keyboard, really good trackpad performance (almost as pleasant as apple), good battery, really good port selection - even has ethernet, SD card, and hdmi.  the only downside is the 13" is a little small, and laptop is a bit thickish (but depends what youre used to).  pricing also very fair.

 

I've only had limited exposure to the XPS13 but i think its mostly comparable to the Latitude, but thinner and bigger screen due to thinner bezel.  13.3" still a tad smaller than i prefer, and it doesnt have concealable camera.  4K resolution is overkill for the size, and IMO a con because it'll cost more in battery life, and HiDPI doesnt work perfectly in windows.  1080P/FHD screen is the most appropriate resolution for ultrabooks, IMO.

 

My pick of the litter is the Dell. 

Go for FHD matte screen, if available.

Max out RAM, when possible.

Pick i5, especially when it presents a good savings over i7.  only difference is cache size, and clockspeed (which can be modified).  in fact i wouldnt be surprised if it werent identical from the factory, aside from cache.  but you get better battery consumption, for practically same speed over most use case.

256GB SSD should be a minimum, for overhead required for on-computer storage.  portable SSD are super cheap now to expand.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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i've purchase dell refurbs from rakuten.  they carry the same dell warranty as new models.  after 6 months, i had the wifi card on the xps 13 replaced (common problem with that model) under warranty.  they sent a tech out to my house and replaced the warranty.  the xps carry the higher class of warranty.  replaced in under 20 mins.  everything else has been stellar.  i would recommend buying dell refurbs.  there are no add'l risks compared to buying new.

refurb

https://www.rakuten.com/shop/weeklycloseouts/product/1550473123/

 

new

https://www.rakuten.com/shop/dell/product/xnita3ws607h/

 

if you are patient, you can find better "deals".

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the issues that i read with ryzen is that they run hotter than the intels and they have issues with driver updates.  the first i can tolerate, the second would piss me off when shit starts not working all of the sudden due to out of date drivers.  it's shit like shitty drivers which turn people off of windows.

and there are many deals for laptops in the $500 range.  just know that battery life is going to be 3.5 - 5 hours.  

religiously watch this page.  sometimes you have very little time when laptops get on here before they sell out.

https://slickdeals.net/laptop-deals/

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I'm quite certain I have no desire for a touchscreen in a clamshell notebook.  Is there anything an old-school business type user like me might benefit from a 2-in-1?  Example, I have to do illustrations a lot that tend to be cuts and pastes from pdfs of engineering drawings.  Is there some program that might permit me to use a pen to make that process easier, that is, to produce straight line sketches or cleanly annotate pdfs?

Just occurs to me that one thing I will miss about OSX is preview and native pdf handling.

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i do not use my touchscreen all the time but it's nice to have when i use it.  sometimes, i'll fold my dell laptops into a tablet while i'm watching tv.  again, not always but really nice to the option.  i got out my way to find touchscreens because i want the option.

and yes, some touchscreen laptops tout touch pen capabilities.  i don't have a need to do what you said so i'm not sure of the capabilities exist in windows.  i would imagine that they are since they are no brainer use cases for touchscreens and pens.

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touchscreens also consume a bit more power.  if i have the option, ill opt for no touchscreen

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Was a huge Dell guy for a long time because that is what the army used. The problem became after I retired and realized when my Dell crapped out, I couldnt just go turn it into IT guy and get a new one.  I still have an old latitude that works and I use it to run legacy programs and keep my scanners hooked up to it. 

The last few years I've migrated towards ASUS products and have been very satisfied. It first started with my tower computer when I needed to replaced the motherboard and chose an ASUS mobo and loved it. When I upgraded a couple of years ago, I put another ASUS intel I7 mobo in it and love it even more.  Overclocking is easy if necessary. I run around 5-10% above the 3.6gb speed baseline so around 4gb speed but could go much higher. 

At that point I also needed a new laptop so I got an ASUS FX550 and LOVE it for around $400 new on ebay.  It still runs like new and perfect for working around the house or going to meetings. 

The laptop was still a little heavy and bulky to just grab and go in order to have something at the coffee shop/restaurant so I tested my luck again and I bought a 10" ASUS CHI100 - perfect.  After a couple of years, it still runs great and tablet battery is still good for all day usage.  It is screen activated so you can use the tablet by itself if you prefer.  I dont like poking with my finger on the screen to type and prefer a keyboard and the CHI100 comes with a blue-tooth keyboard. With a $10 leather tablet cover that accepts the bluetooth keyboard and the tablet and covers the screen at the same time - perfect - and wa-la, a 10" laptop that is perfect for taking with me wherever I go.  I will say, however, after a couple of years the bluetooth keyboard has been laggy lately, the battery may be going out, and I probably need to replace it. 

except for the old Dell laptop, they all run with windows 10.  I've never owned an apple product and doubt I ever will. I've always thought they were over priced for what you get but that may just be me and my comfort zone. 

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16 minutes ago, SDG said:

How do you ruin 2 MacBooks in less than 5 years?  

The first one I apparently set down near or next to some liquid that the fans sucked into the chassis and sprayed around.  The replacement is a 2017 MBP, which are fraught with keyboard and screen connector problems.  They're pieces of shit.  I knew the keyboard was a user issue, but the reliability problems didn't come front and center until after I bought and now there is flexgate.

At some point I will take it to the dumbass bar, but being out of warranty, I am not confident.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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If I remember correctly I bought my 2017 mbp around the same time as you or another poster.  Knock on wood; I haven’t had any issues so far.  I put a cheap amazon case on it and it’s been pretty indestructible for me even though it spends a lot of time getting thrown around in a backpack. 

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10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The first one I apparently set down near or next to some liquid that the fans sucked into the chassis and sprayed around.  The replacement is a 2017 MBP, which are fraught with keyboard and screen connector problems.  They're pieces of shit.  I knew the keyboard was a user issue, but the reliability problems didn't come front and center until after I bought and now there is flexgate.

Lol, you have a couple of keys with a backlight issue, which can easily be fixed for zero cost. The computer will last you 5-10 years, especially for your uses, but I understand the want for new tech. 

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5 minutes ago, Lobwedgephil said:

Lol, you have a couple of keys with a backlight issue, which can easily be fixed for zero cost. The computer will last you 5-10 years, especially for your uses, but I understand the want for new tech. 

I consider this an expensive pain in the ass and I have zero confidence in this thing.  This morning I raised the lid, saw my desktop, then it went black.  It's fucked.

Hell, there's probably atmospheric liquid damage.  The Toshiba just died (SSD failure), and frankly that was more satisfactory than little shit going wrong en route to catastrophic failure.  It was also relatively cheap.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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19 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The first one I apparently set down near or next to some liquid that the fans sucked into the chassis and sprayed around.  The replacement is a 2017 MBP, which are fraught with keyboard and screen connector problems.  They're pieces of shit.  I knew the keyboard was a user issue, but the reliability problems didn't come front and center until after I bought and now there is flexgate.

At some point I will take it to the dumbass bar, but being out of warranty, I am not confident.

I'm a big fan of the macbook air. I just bought a new one after the old finally gave up after 8 years.   I'm still getting used to the new keyboard style. It's a bit noisy but I haven't experience (yet) some of the problems that others have reported.  The Air is about 10% lighter and slightly smaller dimensions.

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If you’re out on Mac; I’d get them to repair it for free (see your other thread) then you can trade it in at a place like BestBuy or sale it for some pretty good coin which should take the sting out of the price of the new pc.   

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1 minute ago, SDG said:

If you’re out on Mac; I’d get them to repair it for free (see your other thread) then you can trade it in at a place like BestBuy or sale it for some pretty good coin which should take the sting out of the price of the new pc.   

I have zero confidence that what's wrong with it will be fixed for free.  It doesn't have the traditional keyboard problems (sticky/stuck keys) and there's no program for flexgate for 2017s.

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9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I consider this an expensive pain in the ass and I have zero confidence in this thing.  This morning I raised the lid, saw my desktop, then it went black.  It's fucked.

 Hell, there's probably atmospheric liquid damage.  The Toshiba just died (SSD failure), and frankly that was more satisfactory than little shit going wrong en route to catastrophic failure.  It was also relatively cheap.

So you have no interest in getting it fixed for free, on that expensive of a laptop? Atmospheric liquid damage is a new one though, well done. Just trying to help, but clearly you are looking to get something new, which is fine as well. Take yours to apple, fix it and sell it, should easily cover the cost of a new pc laptop. 

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agreed with the above posters.  i would try my best to get apple to own up to their shitty product and have them fix known, chronic issues, which obviously your macbook is experiencing.  great deals on windows laptops will always be had.

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Oh I'll try it.  If it does get fixed for free, I'll be happy and less pissed at apple.  But the fact remains that it's out of warranty and any out of warranty repair is pretty much not worth it.  If it clearly fit in either of the post-warranty programs for the keyboard or the screen connector, I would have some confidence.  Because it doesn't, I have none.

I am super-dependent on this thing for work, so I am trying to plan something where I have a replacement in a day or two.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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i've purchased for my family 2 acers, 4 dells, and 1 lenovo.  my price target was always $3-500 for I-cores and 8 GB rams.  i didn't care about the hard drive because i would always replace with a ~500 GB SSD.  i did buy an XPS 13 for my daughter for her high school graduation.  I5 7th gen, 8GB RAM, and a 256 SSD for $630.  
i'm only buying XPS's from now on.  they are amazing laptops.  if you are patient, rakuten sometimes has great deals on XPS 13 and 15s.  i'm waiting for my 15' dell 7000 series laptop to die (might take a long ass time) so that i can buy a XPS 15.
or......
get the huawei matebooks.  the matebook D 14' specifically.  the matebooks have some great reviews.  you can sometimes find the matebook d for $520ish on newegg.
 


I havent swapped out a hard drive in a laptop before, only desktop. How hard/easy is it? Isn’t there also a compatibility issue potentially?

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Just now, Dbeasy said:

 


I havent swapped out a hard drive in a laptop before, only desktop. How hard/easy is it? Isn’t there also a compatibility issue potentially?

Never done it either.  Some laptops (Apple) have soldered-in devices that are near or completely impossible to replace.  Others use standard plug-in devices.  Some are easily accessed, others less so.  You have to be careful about your particular machine.

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2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

in fact i wouldnt be surprised if it werent identical from the factory, aside from cache.

they're identical off the lithography process.  all they do is disable some of the cache by cutting a fuse. 

 

surface laptop 2 is probably the better choice for work due to the 3:2 screen aspect ratio (unless you're working on docs that are much wider than they are tall).  keyboard also has good foodback, though it's a bit narrow.

 

13 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

 


I havent swapped out a hard drive in a laptop before, only desktop. How hard/easy is it? Isn’t there also a compatibility issue potentially?

 

gonna depend on how the drive is plugged into the computer.  macs are notorious for not working with aftermarket drives (use apple's own proprietary connector as well as the bios being locked to specific drives, iirc).  PCs almost always work with aftermarket drives.  if the laptop's bottom is screwed on, changing the drive is usually a trivial affair. 

Edited by elfenix

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1 minute ago, elfenix said:

they're identical off the lithography process.  all they do is disable some of the cache by cutting a fuse. 

 

surface laptop 2 is probably the better choice for work due to the 3:2 screen aspect ratio (unless you're working on docs that are much wider than they are tall).  keyboard also has good foodback, though it's a bit narrow.

 

gonna depend on how the drive is plugged into the computer.  macs are notorious for not working with aftermarket drives.  PCs almost always work with aftermarket drives.  if the laptop's bottom is screwed on, changing the drive is usually a trivial affair. 

The alcantara keyboard gives me the willies.

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2 minutes ago, elfenix said:

they're identical off the lithography process.  all they do is disable some of the cache by cutting a fuse. 

 

surface laptop 2 is probably the better choice for work due to the 3:2 screen aspect ratio (unless you're working on docs that are much wider than they are tall).  keyboard also has good foodback, though it's a bit narrow.

 

gonna depend on how the drive is plugged into the computer.  macs are notorious for not working with aftermarket drives (use apple's own proprietary connector as well as the bios being locked to specific drives, iirc).  PCs almost always work with aftermarket drives.  if the laptop's bottom is screwed on, changing the drive is usually a trivial affair. 

apple doesn't like you adding shit aftermarket.  they usually go out of their way to lock down the hardware as much as possible because upsell and profits.

on most laptops, it depends on the model.  most laptop hard drives are not soldered, memory sometimes is.  it's really just depends on where the hd is located and how many screws and components must be removed to access the hard drive.  the dell latitudes and xps were extremely easy to change.  remove the bottom cover, unscrew the 4 screws holding the hard drive, and then disconnect the cable.

the "harder", more time consuming part is to disk copy the hard drives.  if you are moving from a smaller to larger hard drive, usually not an issue.  moving from larger to smaller sometimes is harder because you may have to mess with partition sizes.  not overly complicated but still involves a little reading.

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2 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

moving from larger to smaller sometimes is harder because you may have to mess with partition sizes.  not overly complicated but still involves a little reading

just went through this process on a computer that had a failing hard drive, which i replaced with an ssd.  using clonezilla didn't work because windows 10 applies bitlocker to everything, apparently, and clonezilla can't read that.  then i tried easeus backup, which copied all the stuff to the ssd properly, but windows' integration with the bios meant that it was looking for that old hard drive instead of the ssd.  windows' automatic fixes didn't work.  finally youtube U came through with the proper command line tools to get it to boot, though now there's a menu that asks which windows 10 i'd like to boot from that appears.  minor annoyance in the grand scheme. 

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3 minutes ago, elfenix said:

just went through this process on a computer that had a failing hard drive, which i replaced with an ssd.  using clonezilla didn't work because windows 10 applies bitlocker to everything, apparently, and clonezilla can't read that.  then i tried easeus backup, which copied all the stuff to the ssd properly, but windows' integration with the bios meant that it was looking for that old hard drive instead of the ssd.  windows' automatic fixes didn't work.  finally youtube U came through with the proper command line tools to get it to boot, though now there's a menu that asks which windows 10 i'd like to boot from that appears.  minor annoyance in the grand scheme. 

that's crazy.  i didn't have any issues with windows in changing any of my hd to ssds.  only issue i had was the copying failing due to partition sizes becoming smaller for the new drive.  there's probably a way to fix it but i kept the system partitions >= size to the original drive partition and that solved the copy failing.  every time, the bios recognized the new drive.

it's shit like yours that turns people off to windows.  not microsoft's fault due to so many different oems.

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9 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

that's crazy.  i didn't have any issues with windows in changing any of my hd to ssds.  only issue i had was the copying failing due to partition sizes becoming smaller for the new drive.  there's probably a way to fix it but i kept the system partitions >= size to the original drive partition and that solved the copy failing.  every time, the bios recognized the new drive.

it's shit like yours that turns people off to windows.  not microsoft's fault due to so many different oems.

this is the first time i've had trouble like this and i've done several hdd to ssd swaps. in this case the bios didn't list the drives themselves in the boot order, instead it listed "windows boot something something."

Edited by elfenix

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Seem to be quite a few XPS13s on the Dell refurb site. 7-800. No one has anything bad to say about them, so that seems to be the leader in the clubhouse.

What is the difference between W10 Home and Pro?  I don't login to windows domains anymore, so that shouldn't be an issue.  Anything else I care about?

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12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Seem to be quite a few XPS13s on the Dell refurb site. 7-800. No one has anything bad to say about them, so that seems to be the leader in the clubhouse.

What is the difference between W10 Home and Pro?  I don't login to windows domains anymore, so that shouldn't be an issue.  Anything else I care about?

some of those xps13s have older processors.  one was a 4th gen, i believe the other was a 6th gen.  real world difference may be negligible if all you are doing is surfing and watching the occasional movie, but it sounds like you may be doing more than that.  i would pay attention to the processor gen.  

the 8th gen made a significant step in power with 4 cores being standard from I3 to I7.  i'm sure with each new gen, the processors run more efficiently, less heat, less possible throttling, and better battery life.

personally, i wouldn't buy anything later than a 7th gen.  i got a 7th gen xps13 for $620, but i was really patient and it was the holidays. you may not have luxury.

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17 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Seem to be quite a few XPS13s on the Dell refurb site. 7-800. No one has anything bad to say about them, so that seems to be the leader in the clubhouse.

What is the difference between W10 Home and Pro?  I don't login to windows domains anymore, so that shouldn't be an issue.  Anything else I care about?

If that is the direction you have decided, then you can use this Manufacturer refurbished one with 1 yr warranty for $700 as a comparison:

Dell XPS 13 9365 13.3 inch Notebook PC i7-7Y75

Intel Core i7 7th Gen.

16GB RAM

512GB SSD

Windows 10 Pro

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12 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

some of those xps13s have older processors.  one was a 4th gen, i believe the other was a 6th gen.  real world difference may be negligible if all you are doing is surfing and watching the occasional movie, but it sounds like you may be doing more than that.  i would pay attention to the processor gen.  

the 8th gen made a significant step in power with 4 cores being standard from I3 to I7.  i'm sure with each new gen, the processors run more efficiently, less heat, less possible throttling, and better battery life.

personally, i wouldn't buy anything later than a 7th gen.  i got a 7th gen xps13 for $620, but i was really patient and it was the holidays. you may not have luxury.

Thanks for the reminder.  I was looking at 9360 and 9370 builds and theres only 1 9360 but sure enough a 7th.

Do I care about Home or Pro?

I have always bought mfr. refurbs, Dell and Apple, but I'm a little wary of 3rd party refurbs with 90 day warranties.

Edited by TwiceHorn

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Pro has some advanced networking shit and admin shit (like remote desktop) that is relevant to noone

 

W10 home is fine.  Also if you want pro you just put in a code and it'll unlock. 

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5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Thanks for the reminder.  I was looking at 9360 and 9370 builds and theres only 1 9360 but sure enough a 7th.

Do I care about Home or Pro?

I have always bought mfr. refurbs, Dell and Apple, but I'm a little wary of 3rd party refurbs with 90 day warranties.

Home or Pro?  I think it depends. I dont think it matters for most people.  I think both my tablet and laptop are home editions but my main computer (tower) is always pro edition.  An easy search and you can compare the difference between the two.  For me, there are a few things I like about the pro version: additional administrative functions; I also like remote desktop where I can remote connect the tablet and laptop to the main computer; I also like Bitlocker that encrypts a couple of drives, etc

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59 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Thanks for the reminder.  I was looking at 9360 and 9370 builds and theres only 1 9360 but sure enough a 7th.

Do I care about Home or Pro?

I have always bought mfr. refurbs, Dell and Apple, but I'm a little wary of 3rd party refurbs with 90 day warranties.

the xps refurb that i purchased from the rakuten site had the dell full year warranty.  you should confirm but i believe that to be the case with these.

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1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Seem to be quite a few XPS13s on the Dell refurb site. 7-800. No one has anything bad to say about them, so that seems to be the leader in the clubhouse.

What is the difference between W10 Home and Pro?  I don't login to windows domains anymore, so that shouldn't be an issue.  Anything else I care about?

pro has much better control over when patches are applied

Edited by elfenix

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Xps 13 is good route to go. Keep in mind, intel is releasing its next generation (ice lake) this year. There are some big architectural changes that come with it (on chip thunderbolt support for one). Performance improvement should be significant for ultrabooks, and the xps 13 will be one of the first released with the new chips later this year. I personally am waiting for that to happen. Then, you either purchase the latest and greatest, or save a few (hundred?) Dollars on today's products. 

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1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

Xps 13 is good route to go. Keep in mind, intel is releasing its next generation (ice lake) this year. There are some big architectural changes that come with it (on chip thunderbolt support for one). Performance improvement should be significant for ultrabooks, and the xps 13 will be one of the first released with the new chips later this year. I personally am waiting for that to happen. Then, you either purchase the latest and greatest, or save a few (hundred?) Dollars on today's products. 

I'm not doing anything until this MBP forces me to go to the dumbass bar and find out if I'm going to get raped.  So that's good info.  Found myself near a best buy and strolled in to lay hands on some things.  The Lenovos seem pretty compelling.  They didn't have an XPS to finger.

Also, on paper this looks really good for the money.  https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkbook-series/Lenovo-ThinkBook-13s-IWL/p/88LG8TB1310

Edited by TwiceHorn

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5 minutes ago, crash_davis said:

did you see that dell inspiron 14" i posted above.  that seemed like a really good deal.

Actually, I saw the 15.6 which might be even better.  Thanks.  I'm not going to do anything for a bit, unless this thing up n croaks here in the next few days.  I'll have to get lucky, probably, to find anything on slickdeals with the right timing.

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In addition to a refurb XPS, availability of which seems to change daily, I have found 2 other potential goodies:

Lenovo ThinkBook 13s Hybrid between ThinkPad and Ideabook, extra robust, low on Thunderbolt

Lenovo IdeaPad 730S i7/8/256 for 692!!!!

At Best Buy, Lenovo had the best looking and feeling machines out.  Both of these are good deals, but it's unclear how long they'll last.

Genius Bar Appointment at 1245.

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im skeptical about consumer grade lineup.  lenovo has a cult following and for them its thinkpad or bust. 

 

costco very recently had a very good deal on thinkpad x1 carbon 6th gen.  deals are being put on them as the 7th gen are just about to be released.

 

your preferences may vary but for me 3 really important things about laptops are: chassis build and feel; battery management and life; and display quality.  buying on specs and price doesnt tell you about the first factor..and most consumer lineup are not good on it.  the 2nd one can only be ascertained from user reviews because advertised numbers are false.

Edited by 52-80

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