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Summer riots/protests damage & tactics documentation thread (no politics, please)

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3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I was thinking into the Arctic thus providing a new food source for polar bears. Just a thought. 

You seem like a real go-getter with upper management written all over you.

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1 minute ago, Cheeseweasel said:

You seem like a real go-getter with upper management written all over you.

UT Grad Sir. What starts here changes the world. 

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This is one of the oft-cited social media sources by posters here, Ian Miles Cheong.

He also doxxed female game developers and female game journalists during GamerGate.

Spreading disinformation might be a useful tactic in getting clicks and attention from the easily-fooled, but it can heave deadly consequences for innocent people.

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2 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Cheong is in Malaysia. I'll ask the Surly lawyers.

You can likely get him sued here.  Get a judgment against his ass, including a restraining order, and use that with respect to any social media platform that might host his bullshit.

Oh, and if he has any assets in a bank with a branch here in the US, you can grab those.

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22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Hicks should sue the fuck out of him.  Period, full stop.

I wonder if Nick Sandman's lawyer will reach out? 

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49 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This is one of the oft-cited social media sources by posters here, Ian Miles Cheong.

He also doxxed female game developers and female game journalists during GamerGate.

Spreading disinformation might be a useful tactic in getting clicks and attention from the easily-fooled, but it can heave deadly consequences for innocent people.

Not gonna lie, this is the first I heard of this fellow.

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39 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Not gonna lie, this is the first I heard of this fellow.

I'm aware of him but only in the sense of the GamerGate thing and also I had read that he was accused of 'swatting.' I had never heard of that but one of my kids mentioned it (no, they don't do that) and being the parent who likes to keep an eye on things, I looked it up and I think his name came up. In case you didn't know about it, swatting is where the caller sends the police to another address on a hoax call. It's illegal and very dangerous for everyone.

I don't know if others on here, quote this guy Cheong. The person I see more often is Andy Ngo. I have issues with him because he portrays himself as a journalist (his background is in graphic design) but I agree with others in the communications field who call him more of a "media activist." He inserts himself into the story and bends it beyond what a journalist should report, IMO. It's one of the reasons he was fired from the student newspaper when he was in college. He took a video of another student and published the out of context remarks on twitter. Breitbart picked it up and he discovered what type of stuff sells. That's got to be quite an experience for a twenty year old. Unfortunately, the positive and reformative lessons that one might learn from that didn't take, and he's gone his own way ever since. I'm sure it's lucrative (which since a guy's gotta eat may have discouraged learning a different route). It's not like he's the only one, nor is that limited to media personalities that are cozy with far right groups like the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer like he is. Lots of video out there that portrays things with a slant and it requires a little legwork and a little reflection and a willingness to be somewhat skeptical of yep, both sides. It should make all Americans angry, very angry that people (not just foreign agents) in our country are trying to manipulate us so fiercely. It's not new or anything, but it's so *pervasive now and the tracking of everywhere you go, everything you buy, everyone you talk to that we should fight it and fight it with a will that sends those that would do so back to the old school practice of the ten principles of journalism (from the American Press Association)

1. Journalism’s first obligation is to the truth.

2. Its first loyalty is to citizens.

3. Its essence is a discipline of verification.

4. Its practitioners must maintain an independence from those they cover.

5. It must serve as an independent monitor of power

6. It must provide a forum for public criticism and compromise.

7. It must strive to make the significant interesting and relevant.

8. It must keep the news comprehensive and proportional.

9. Its practitioners must be allowed to exercise their personal conscience. (this relates to having differences of opinions within a newsroom which is necessary)

10. Citizens, too, have rights and responsibilities when it comes to the news.

If not that, then at the very least, the five principles of ethical journalism would keep it a little simpler: Truth and Accuracy, Independence, Fairness and Impartiality, Humanity, and Accountability.

That was a long-winded soap box, so sorry about that. It's just makes me angry that Americans turn up the volume on the voices that are already loud and miss the calmer voices that have much more reflective practices and thoughtfulness.

*Pervasive in that you, the consumer of information can be targeted with specific information.

Edited by Mrs Whiggins

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46 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

Not gonna lie, this is the first I heard of this fellow.

didn't stop yall from clutching your pearls from his fair and balanced reporting back in early August

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32 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

1. Journalism’s first obligation is to the truth.

LOL, we can stop right here then.....

Today?  "journalism's" first obligation is to survive.  Like any dying animal, it uses any means at it's disposal....

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12 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

LOL, we can stop right here then.....

Today?  "journalism's" first obligation is to survive.  Like any dying animal, it uses any means at it's disposal....

It's not like our republic wasn't actively working to kill it. Between the internet's evolution and the way we package and sell information (especially since the arrival of 24 hour cable networks) it was going to be a struggle. I believe the truth is worth fighting for.

In addition, why do we allow foreign ownership and/or influence on so much of our media conglomerates especially since there are fewer and fewer outlets? Is this a good idea?

 

Sorry, I've derailed what was a good thread. I'll shut up and head back to the cloak room.

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1 hour ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

I'm aware of him but only in the sense of the GamerGate thing and also I had read that he was accused of 'swatting.' I had never heard of that but one of my kids mentioned it (no, they don't do that) and being the parent who likes to keep an eye on things, I looked it up and I think his name came up. In case you didn't know about it, swatting is where the caller sends the police to another address on a hoax call. It's illegal and very dangerous for everyone.

I don't know if others on here, quote this guy Cheong. The person I see more often is Andy Ngo. I have issues with him because he portrays himself as a journalist (his background is in graphic design) but I agree with others in the communications field who call him more of a "media activist." He inserts himself into the story and bends it beyond what a journalist should report, IMO. It's one of the reasons he was fired from the student newspaper when he was in college. He took a video of another student and published the out of context remarks on twitter. Breitbart picked it up and he discovered what type of stuff sells. That's got to be quite an experience for a twenty year old. Unfortunately, the positive and reformative lessons that one might learn from that didn't take, and he's gone his own way ever since. I'm sure it's lucrative (which since a guy's gotta eat may have discouraged learning a different route). It's not like he's the only one, nor is that limited to media personalities that are cozy with far right groups like the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer like he is. Lots of video out there that portrays things with a slant and it requires a little legwork and a little reflection and a willingness to be somewhat skeptical of yep, both sides. It should make all Americans angry, very angry that people (not just foreign agents) in our country are trying to manipulate us so fiercely. It's not new or anything, but it's so *pervasive now and the tracking of everywhere you go, everything you buy, everyone you talk to that we should fight it and fight it with a will that sends those that would do so back to the old school practice of the ten principles of journalism (from the American Press Association)

1. Journalism’s first obligation is to the truth.

2. Its first loyalty is to citizens.

3. Its essence is a discipline of verification.

4. Its practitioners must maintain an independence from those they cover.

5. It must serve as an independent monitor of power

6. It must provide a forum for public criticism and compromise.

7. It must strive to make the significant interesting and relevant.

8. It must keep the news comprehensive and proportional.

9. Its practitioners must be allowed to exercise their personal conscience. (this relates to having differences of opinions within a newsroom which is necessary)

10. Citizens, too, have rights and responsibilities when it comes to the news.

If not that, then at the very least, the five principles of ethical journalism would keep it a little simpler: Truth and Accuracy, Independence, Fairness and Impartiality, Humanity, and Accountability.

That was a long-winded soap box, so sorry about that. It's just makes me angry that Americans turn up the volume on the voices that are already loud and miss the calmer voices that have much more reflective practices and thoughtfulness.

*Pervasive in that you, the consumer of information can be targeted with specific information.

He also failed at point of journalism 11: be broadly attractive and have big tits

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Sorry, that falls into the media personality category rules. If someone is a hot babe or a chisel-jawed stud and follows journalistic principles it's a lagniappe not a requirement.

Russia follows the media personality category, I prefer the second. You may not mind, sitting on the couch in your undies, but just because it's called Pravda doesn't mean it is.

Телеведущие России 24 - specificationft

Maria Morgun, beautiful TV Host - Russian Personalities

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10 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

 

Телеведущие России 24 - specificationft

 

Kind of a Kelly Taylor from Vladivostok 90210 vibe going on there.  

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I asked to hear for your proposal of what should be done (e.g. reduce sentencing, stricter police hiring, etc).  You replied with a personal storytime. 
Story #1 was a shirtless shoeless person, in your words, "rummaging around" in a car.  When questioned, person rummaging had no ID.  Person's family .... not at home.  Person couldn't answer where family was.  You really expect any other person in that situation  to not have raised suspicion?  The gun being drawn was excessive.  But the resolution?  cop walked with you to a neighboring building to a family friend for identification.  If someone wanted to give you a hard time, you would've been at the stations hours waiting for official family.
Story #2 you were stopped and questioned.  Not sure how that equates to claims in here of people undeservedly being beaten and shot???  I assume you werent.  Moreover, what do you propose be done about it?
I've been pulled over on Lavaca, by 3 highway cruisers with flashing lights.  I was on a bicycle.  They issued me multiple tickets.  Excessive?  totally.  Was I tossed around?  No.  Im guessing not getting into a fight about it helped.  (tickets were later dismissed in court).  I've been cuffed, but not tossed around.  I wasn't armed or fighting a tazer.  Wild. 
My mom was once pulled over for the first and only time in her life.  At that time she barely spoke a lick of English.  Cop was the known asshole in our little town.  She was so nervous she left the car in drive, and it crept forward at all of 0.5mph while he was speaking to her, and he barked at her so damn loud it could've broken the window.  We didn't get shot though.  Do you suppose it was because he liked our particular brand of ethnicity, or because he didn't like it?
 


Story 1 I was outside of my own home with the keys to the car in my hand. So obviously I wasn't breaking into it. He could've pulled my registration out of the car and asked me what my name and address was and that would've been an easy end to the story. Instead he had to abuse his power.

Story 2 was a simple case of profiling. He looked past the professional outfit and 70k car at one thing and one thing only. It was the middle of the day. No need to waste both of our time.

I see you talk a lot about classism instead of racism. The issue is in most places on this earth they are one and the same. Dark people in many cultures are looked down upon. Go to India. Go to Brazil. Hell, even Asians do it. Fixing the problem starts the same way as AA does. Acknowlede you have a problem. Right now, we can't even get to step one. People like yourself refuse to believe it has anything to do about race.

We can never fix anything as long as we are denying we have a problem and making excuses for them. The only thing that is going to fix our policing issue is the same thing that fixes general pop. Accountability. Citizens fear the repercussions of our actions. Police, quite frankly, are the child who's parents refuse to discipline him. Police need to fear consequences.

For example in the video of the where the two police try to apprehend the guy. Clearly something was wrong with him. Once they saw he wasn't cooperating they could've retracted, called for backup, and given him instructions from afar and let him mentally process the situation he was in. There are other ways to handle situations besides brute force. However, they will never explore those until we force them to.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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4 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Story 1 I was outside of my own home with the keys to the car in my hand. So obviously I wasn't breaking into it. He could've pulled my registration out of the car and asked me what my name and address was and that would've been an easy end to the story. Instead he had to abuse his power.
 

The car was parked outside a house.  And you would be able to prove your identification by ...reciting the address of the house? Yeah that won't fly.

 

Quote

People like yourself refuse to believe it has anything to do about race.

Wrong.  When police are called to a disturbance and the perp literally fights with the police and gets injured, throw your fucking race card out the window.  Conflating everything with race ingratiates your views to noone.  When literally 4 out of 5 fatal shootings documented by WaPo involved perps wielding guns and knife, maybe co-opting it for your war over color is a bit distasteful. 

It's a human trait that there is an layer of prejudice in every aspect of society, in every society, based on RACE, gender, wealth, religion, attractiveness, etc.  But it is second- and tertiary- order cause of police incidents compared to, you know, wielding a fucking weapon and refusing to drop it. 

This prejudice is inextricable, just like the fact that there will always be some rotten cops, and there will always be delinquent dirtbags.  But fixing the conditions that lands petty drug dealers in jail and unable to find employment and living in ghettos, would go a much longer way than "FUCK THE 12!!!". 

 

Quote

We can never fix anything as long as we are denying we have a problem and making excuses for them. The only thing that is going to fix our policing issue is the same thing that fixes general pop. Accountability. Citizens fear the repercussions of our actions. Police, quite frankly, are the child who's parents refuse to discipline him. Police need to fear consequences...

For example in the video of the where the two police try to apprehend the guy. Clearly something was wrong with him. Once they saw he wasn't cooperating they could've retracted, called for backup, and given him instructions from afar and let him mentally process the situation he was in. There are other ways to handle situations besides brute force. However, they will never explore those until we force them to.

Have you observed this board for the last 10 years?  Would anyone disagree with you on needing police reform?  You keep ascribing everything to the police, and here you say the fault is on them for initiating brute force?  Here you have an example of a shithead (in this case an inexplicable shithead, probably not a victim of economic circumstance), acting like a shithead, and now the police in this department are going to be a lot more on-edge in future encounters, and it's going to yield another video like this in another week or month.  Because 300M people... lots of shitheads.  Not 300M people, cops getting into tussles for fun.

Edited by 52-80

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7 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Police, quite frankly, are the child who's parents refuse to discipline him. Police need to fear consequences.

I hope you never manage people because this is a horrible take.

"Beatings will continue until moral improves"

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36 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

The car was parked outside a house.  And you would be able to prove your identification by ...reciting the address of the house? Yeah that won't fly.

 

Wrong.  When police are called to a disturbance and the perp literally fights with the police and gets injured, throw your fucking race card out the window.  Conflating everything with race ingratiates your views to noone.  When literally 4 out of 5 fatal shootings documented by WaPo involved perps wielding guns and knife, maybe co-opting it for your war over color is a bit distasteful. 

It's a human trait that there is an layer of prejudice in every aspect of society, in every society, based on RACE, gender, wealth, religion, attractiveness, etc.  But it is second- and tertiary- order cause of police incidents compared to, you know, wielding a fucking weapon and refusing to drop it. 

This prejudice is inextricable, just like the fact that there will always be some rotten cops, and there will always be delinquent dirtbags.  But fixing the conditions that lands petty drug dealers in jail and unable to find employment and living in ghettos, would go a much longer way than "FUCK THE 12!!!". 

 

Have you observed this board for the last 10 years?  Would anyone disagree with you on needing police reform?  You keep ascribing everything to the police, and here you say the fault is on them for initiating brute force?  Here you have an example of a shithead (in this case an inexplicable shithead, probably not a victim of economic circumstance), acting like a shithead, and now the police in this department are going to be a lot more on-edge in future encounters, and it's going to yield another video like this in another week or month.  Because 300M people... lots of shitheads.  Not 300M people, cops getting into tussles for fun.

  You literally have the keys to the car in your hand. You know the name of the car owner and the address as it pertains to the registration. Pretty safe equation to say you are in the clear. You are being willfully obtuse here.

   You keep putting your eggs in the "guy is wielding a weapon and fighting with cops" basket, when just this year alone we kneeled on a man's neck on the street. We put a spit hood on another man and did the same.

  How about, don't come flying right up next to a 12 year old playing with a toy gun in the park and hop out and start shooting. Block him in from a distance. Give him a chance to drop the gun. If we did that Tamir Rice would still be here.

  There are 330 million people in this country. There are 800,000 police. It is a much better idea to alter the training of the already trained 800,000 than to think we can train 330 million. The only way you can ever alter the training is if there is accountability for doing it wrong. The rest of us get held accountable at our jobs for handling situations wrong.

  However, the key word here is the word wrong. We cannot see that the way the police handle situations is wrong. Time an time again they are the quarterback who leaves a clean pocket and unnecessarily runs himself into a sack. In the video you posted, the officers escalated an already tense situation. Now they will use that video to bring even more brute force next time. Handle the situation like you would if you didn't have a gun. Back off. Call for backup. Wait them out. Let them see there is no other way out except giving in.

  Now as far as the fixing the conditions in the ghettos go I don't wanna get all cloaky here, so I will say this. Black People have a saying, "Each One Teach One". It's an old slave proverb that pertains to when one person learned to read and write they were duty bound to teach others. Behind the scenes, well to do Black People all over the country are taking it upon themselves to mentor others. Because of this, we are digging ourselves out at a fairly rapid pace when you take into account that a person in their 40's to 50's is the first generation to be born with equal rights. My mom never owned anything, but put aside her health and well being to get her son out. I began my life in the hood, but now my daughter has never seen struggle. We caught up in a single generation. Some other families may need two. People are trying. We don't need handouts. All we need is for lawmakers to stop calling us animals and thugs, and making laws to make it harder.

 

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35 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I hope you never manage people because this is a horrible take.

"Beatings will continue until moral improves"

   Spoken like someone who doesn't discipline their children.

   Think that is a horrible take? Surly is your litmus test. People say things here that they would never say in person because of the anonymity of it. The stuff that gets said here would get your ass whipped in person. Consequences. Further yet, people say and do even less at their places of employment because there are rules they have adhere to. Society has rules. Police do not adhere to those rules.

  Also, I have 100 or so people that I manage. Here is what I know. When you have a set of rules and expectations that are consistently and equally enforced, not only do you get solid performance, but less drama, and happier people. However, if you have a set of rules and expectations that are inconsistently and unequally enforced, you end up with angry people who feel mistreated, and no longer respect or desire to listen to you. Kind of like what you are seeing in the streets of America right now.

Edited by Thatguy

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22 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  Also, I have 100 or so people that I manage

I hope you don't manage them through fear because it's a shitty motivator. And I call BS that you are managing 100 people. No one can effectively manage 100 people. 

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8 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Dark people in many cultures are looked down upon. Go to India. Go to Brazil. Hell, even Asians do it.

Even blacks do it.

An early shocking discovery for this white boy in Nowhere, Texas was listening to two black boys send a younger, much darker, girl to tears because of how black she was compared to them. I didn't really have any kind of larger understanding of it at the time other than to think it was terribly sad and to be mad at the boys, but hate is internalized in dangerous ways.

But it's all artificial, so just as it was pounded into our/your brain, it can be trained out. And we don't train it out with wringing hands, we train it out with actual equality. Your nice car and good salary didn't stop the cop, but I bet you it helped. I bet you he would've treated a broke-looking black guy in a busted 1993 Civic even worse. So we've got a slight improvement there, next we go after the power cops have to just draw down on people and treat them like garbage without consequence.

One piece of equality after another in a never-ending struggle.

--

Also, 52-80 dropping "The gun being drawn was excessive." like it's either nothing or close-to-nothing is hilarious.

"OK, so he raped the girl and that's bad, but he walked her home after, right? RIGHT!?"

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43 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

   Spoken like someone who doesn't discipline their children.

   Think that is a horrible take? Surly is your litmus test. People say things here that they would never say in person because of the anonymity of it. The stuff that gets said here would get your ass whipped in person. Consequences. Further yet, people say and do even less at their places of employment because there are rules they have adhere to. Society has rules. Police do not adhere to those rules.

  Also, I have 100 or so people that I manage. Here is what I know. When you have a set of rules and expectations that are consistently and equally enforced, not only do you get solid performance, but less drama, and happier people. However, if you have a set of rules and expectations that are inconsistently and unequally enforced, you end up with angry people who feel mistreated, and no longer respect or desire to listen to you. Kind of like what you are seeing in the streets of America right now.

We'd like to get...as many as 100 people...working right underneath you...as soon as possible.  /theBobs

 

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1 hour ago, Thatguy said:

There are 330 million people in this country. There are 800,000 police. It is a much better idea to alter the training of the already trained 800,000 than to think we can train 330 million. The only way you can ever alter the training is if there is accountability for doing it wrong. The rest of us get held accountable at our jobs for handling situations wrong.

Nobody is disagreeing with this.  In fact, that is the point rehashed over and over and over.  The VAST majority of LE's receive minimal training.  My guess is you spent more time on Surly yesterday than LE's receive range time every month.  They don't need less resources, they need significantly more. 

They don't need tanks, they need time.  Time for de-escalation training.  Stress mitigation.  Most importantly, time to physically train.  Very few officers clear their holsters during their shifts.  Almost all are physically close to people.  They need to be taught how to handle themselves.  BJJ.  Grappling.  Restraining and control.  They need time to train between 15-20% of the time, giving them time to cycle down, recover, and mitigate the constant stress most are under.

As for people, there is a measure of responsibility as well.  Not to fight and resist.  We know most LEs are not sufficiently trained, so when there is a physical altercation, they go to the spray, the taser, and then the gun, often very, very quickly.  You fight back with a cop.  Try and take their gun, pull a weapon.....it's going to go south and you damn well know it.  

Accountability?  Easy - the unions protect bad cops.  Start there.  Further, their badge #'s should be national, like a tax ID# - create a database so bad cops can't bounce around from precinct to precinct.  Done.

Edited by BabaYaga

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6 minutes ago, Lobo said:

We'd like to get...as many as 100 people...working right underneath you...as soon as possible.  /theBobs

 

Call centers can be difficult.....

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51 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

You keep putting your eggs in the "guy is wielding a weapon and fighting with cops" basket, when just this year alone we kneeled on a man's neck on the street. We put a spit hood on another man and did the same.

  How about, don't come flying right up next to a 12 year old playing with a toy gun in the park and hop out and start shooting. Block him in from a distance. Give him a chance to drop the gun. If we did that Tamir Rice would still be here.

  There are 330 million people in this country. There are 800,000 police. It is a much better idea to alter the training of the already trained 800,000 than to think we can train 330 million. The only way you can ever alter the training is if there is accountability for doing it wrong. The rest of us get held accountable at our jobs for handling situations wrong.

  However, the key word here is the word wrong. We cannot see that the way the police handle situations is wrong. Time an time again they are the quarterback who leaves a clean pocket and unnecessarily runs himself into a sack. In the video you posted, the officers escalated an already tense situation. Now they will use that video to bring even more brute force next time. Handle the situation like you would if you didn't have a gun. Back off. Call for backup. Wait them out. Let them see there is no other way out except giving in.

  Now as far as the fixing the conditions in the ghettos go I don't wanna get all cloaky here, so I will say this. Black People have a saying, "Each One Teach One". It's an old slave proverb that pertains to when one person learned to read and write they were duty bound to teach others. Behind the scenes, well to do Black People all over the country are taking it upon themselves to mentor others. Because of this, we are digging ourselves out at a fairly rapid pace when you take into account that a person in their 40's to 50's is the first generation to be born with equal rights. My mom never owned anything, but put aside her health and well being to get her son out. I began my life in the hood, but now my daughter has never seen struggle. We caught up in a single generation. Some other families may need two. People are trying. We don't need handouts. All we need is for lawmakers to stop calling us animals and thugs, and making laws to make it harder.

 

Do you think if you keep mentioning it over and over again, you'll eventually fish someone here who condones what Derek Chauvin did?  How many of the 800,000 police are Derek Chauvins?  Why is onus solely on them to change, but no accountability or responsibility on behalf of the perps? 

 

The shithead thug that refused 10 minutes of police instruction... you're saying the problem is that THERE WASNT ENOUGH OFFICERS ON SCENE... not that the shithead was noncomplaint?  This is the exact sort of deferral of blame that I find obtuse. 

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2 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

They don't need less resources, they need significantly more.

They don't need more resources, they need different resources.

We don't need to add on top of what they already spend, we need to change their spending completely. And if we need more after that, fine.

- We don't need all these guys to be expert marksmen. We need only a few to do that.
- We don't need all these guys to be proficient in hand-to-hand combat.

Specialize.

40% of the force: White shirt. Specialized social worker types. No guns at all. Minimal combat training. Pure focus on de-escalation and provision of social services. Takes the lead in all public interactions. Patience, no ego, a desire to help resolve everything peacefully and productively.
40% of the force: Gray shirt. White shirts with less social services knowledge but can do all the hand-to-hand stuff.
20% of the force: At the range all the time learning how to actually hit targets unlike regular cops who shoot 50 rounds to get 3 hits and on the mat learning chokeholds and crap.

Every patrol is 1 white shirt with 1 gray shirt. Both have radios ready to call in the gun guys.

Obviously this only works in large departments. If your town has 4 cops they need to be all-rounders, but if your town is 4 cops you probably don't actually need any gun guys if you're honest about it.

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32 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

They don't need more resources, they need different resources.

We don't need to add on top of what they already spend, we need to change their spending completely. And if we need more after that, fine.

- We don't need all these guys to be expert marksmen. We need only a few to do that.
- We don't need all these guys to be proficient in hand-to-hand combat.

Specialize.

40% of the force: White shirt. Specialized social worker types. No guns at all. Minimal combat training. Pure focus on de-escalation and provision of social services. Takes the lead in all public interactions. Patience, no ego, a desire to help resolve everything peacefully and productively.
40% of the force: Gray shirt. White shirts with less social services knowledge but can do all the hand-to-hand stuff.
20% of the force: At the range all the time learning how to actually hit targets unlike regular cops who shoot 50 rounds to get 3 hits and on the mat learning chokeholds and crap.

Every patrol is 1 white shirt with 1 gray shirt. Both have radios ready to call in the gun guys.

Obviously this only works in large departments. If your town has 4 cops they need to be all-rounders, but if your town is 4 cops you probably don't actually need any gun guys if you're honest about it.

What could go wrong......

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16 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

Say it out loud. What is your vision of what would go wrong.

How long ago was your last ride-along with your local precinct patrolmen?

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1 hour ago, BabaYaga said:

As for people, there is a measure of responsibility as well.  Not to fight and resist.  We know most LEs are not sufficiently trained, so when there is a physical altercation, they go to the spray, the taser, and then the gun, often very, very quickly.  You fight back with a cop.  Try and take their gun, pull a weapon.....it's going to go south and you damn well know it.  

Accountability?  Easy - the unions protect bad cops.  Start there.  Further, their badge #'s should be national, like a tax ID# - create a database so bad cops can't bounce around from precinct to precinct.  Done.

I'm not opposed to more training, both in de-escalation and in how to handle confrontations without them turning deadly.  But the ultimate problem is the same as with the next bit of bolded text...

CULTURE.  The problem is CULTURE.  Do unions provide legal protection for cops, with mechanisms that prevent removal etc. of bad cops?  Yep, and those contract provisions need to be flat-out voided as against public policy.  But the problem starts a lot lower down than the union contract.

The problem starts when, after, say, 2 weeks of solid training in de-escalation, humanizing the mentally ill, etc......the cops go out and get a drink, the old guard rants about "wasting our time learning this pussy-ass shit, the only thing those fuckers understand is a mag-light to the skull," and all of that training is undone.  Peer pressure can undo 2 weeks of training in 5 minutes.  And when that senior cop beats the fuck out of someone for mouthing off?  It's not the union that stays silent and watches him do it -- it's his fellow cop.  He doesn't say a thing.  And when the violent cop submits his report of how the guy mouthing off was resisting, and went for a knife or something, the other cops on scene get in line and say "yep, that's what happened."  The union doesn't do that, the culture does.

The culture of modern American policing is fucking toxic.  Jesus, read up on the shit that goes down in the LA county sheriff's department.....it's a goddamned gang.  You can send those guys to all the training you like....they're still going to be what they are.

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1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

Never been on one. Maybe you can describe what you saw on yours that makes you think whatever it is that you are thinking.

Maybe you should go on a few and gain some perspective on a topic you want to opine on?

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I have no interest, and I absolutely disagree with the argument that you seem to be making that only people who go on ride alongs should participate in discussions about how we use police in our society. What do you think the negative impacts would be if cops were less armed and more diverse in their response? What did you see on your ride alongs, and how did it inform your opinion?

Edited by Celery Man

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3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm not opposed to more training, both in de-escalation and in how to handle confrontations without them turning deadly.  But the ultimate problem is the same as with the next bit of bolded text...

CULTURE.  The problem is CULTURE.  Do unions provide legal protection for cops, with mechanisms that prevent removal etc. of bad cops?  Yep, and those contract provisions need to be flat-out voided as against public policy.  But the problem starts a lot lower down than the union contract.

The problem starts when, after, say, 2 weeks of solid training in de-escalation, humanizing the mentally ill, etc......the cops go out and get a drink, the old guard rants about "wasting our time learning this pussy-ass shit, the only thing those fuckers understand is a mag-light to the skull," and all of that training is undone.  Peer pressure can undo 2 weeks of training in 5 minutes.  And when that senior cop beats the fuck out of someone for mouthing off?  It's not the union that stays silent and watches him do it -- it's his fellow cop.  He doesn't say a thing.  And when the violent cop submits his report of how the guy mouthing off was resisting, and went for a knife or something, the other cops on scene get in line and say "yep, that's what happened."  The union doesn't do that, the culture does.

The culture of modern American policing is fucking toxic.  Jesus, read up on the shit that goes down in the LA county sheriff's department.....it's a goddamned gang.  You can send those guys to all the training you like....they're still going to be what they are.

You change culture by changing the mechanism and protections that facilitate that culture

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Just now, Celery Man said:

I have not interest, and I absolutely disagree with the argument that you seem to be making that only people who go on ride alongs should participate in discussions about how we use police in our society. What do you think the negative impacts would be if cops were less armed and more diverse in their response? What did you see on your ride alongs, and how did it inform your opinion?

That is not my point.  My point is there is no description of verbiage that will translate to real world experiences.  

Real world?  OK.  Do a ride along, buck up, and do it and find out why, on traffic stops, the officers always place  their thumb against the rear panel of every car that they stop.

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1 minute ago, bad_teammate said:

Ride-along programs are PR for police departments. The only thing you're learning there are which officers they trust the most to make the department look good.

How many have you been on?

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10 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

You change culture by changing the mechanism and protections that facilitate that culture

Yes and no.  You have to do both.

Police contracts should not protect bad actors, period.  Qualified immunity either should not exist or should be sharply curtailed as a legal doctrine.

But before either of those things had fully developed, we still had shitty cops, doing really shitty things, protected by their code of omerta.  You don't need a union contract to have a culture of "back your brother officer, no matter what."  That culture pre-dated modern union contracts and their limits on officer discipline.

We have to do both.  And right now, the culture of police and the political culture that backs them (Americans LOVE "law and order" and "tough on crime," and the cops LOVE to play that tune for them) is completely resistant to change to either.  Yeah, folks talk about "vote out your leadership that has allowed this to happen," without acknowledging the electoral fact that the majority of voters will just vote in more, and even harsher, "tough on crime" leadership.  You want to vote out a city council member who hasn't done enough to reform policing?  Cool....you're going to end up replacing him with someone who wants to double the police budget and give every cop in the field a mounted .50 cal on top of his squad car (hyperbole for effect, of course - the point is, the replacement is going to want more and tougher policing, not less and smarter policing).

The problem of the culture of law enforcement begins where it always has -- with us, with "we the people."  We have had this sort of law enforcement culture because we've demanded it, and rewarded it.  A politician promises he'll "back the blue," "these are our heroes," "we need to give them all the tools they want to get home safely," and "let's crack down on all the bad guys!", and he wins elections.  He wins LOTS of elections - shit, I've got a shitload of ads just like that running on my TV right now, for candidates who have won political office and are very likely to be re-elected, not in spite of but BECAUSE OF that messaging.  The people have spoken.  Until we collectively (as in, a voting majority) say something different, we're going to keep getting what we ask for and vote for.

Edited by Brisketexan

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1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

That is not my point.  My point is there is no description of verbiage that will translate to real world experiences.  

Real world?  OK.  Do a ride along, buck up, and do it and find out why, on traffic stops, the officers always place  their thumb against the rear panel of every car that they stop.

It is the literal purpose of words to convey these things. Please try it - you had a thought, can you use your words to describe what the thought was? I would be interested to hear from you about how your experiences on ride alongs led you to form these thoughts.

 

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1 minute ago, Celery Man said:

It is the literal purpose of words to convey these things. Please try it - you had a thought, can you use your words to describe what the thought was? I would be interested to hear from you about how your experiences on ride alongs led you to form these thoughts.

 

Quit being a condescending twat.  Again, why do you think the officers place their thumb in the same spot on every car in every traffic stop?  

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Just now, BabaYaga said:

How many have you been on?

2, both as a result of charity raffles. Both times I was with extremely professional and cool HPD officers who dealt with difficult situations extremely well. I've also done class walkthroughs at a few schools where the teachers were absolutely stellar. Professionally, visiting sites has been a job of mine for a million years at this point. As soon as you see the supervisor or the citizen, things change.

Saying it's "public relations" isn't an insult, it's just the truth. They don't pull the names out of a jar. When a department offers ride-along programs officers are chosen for the job and they are coached on what to do. That's not bad, it's just how it is. Same for school walkthroughs.

All you are going to actually learn on a ride-along is how the best that department has to offer handles a normal day while being watched by an outsider. That's the entire point of ride-along programs.

Look at how the programs are explained by cops themselves.

NPYD

SJPD

The main purpose of the Ride-Along Program is to improve police and public relations by familiarizing participants with the complex and unpredictable nature of police work. It can also be a great introduction to daily life on the police force.

 

 

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I am simply trying to get you to say what you are thinking, so that I can know what it is. Can we start with the thumb - why do officers place their thumb in the same spot on every car in every traffic stop?

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