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Not saying I disagree with you, however aren't some of the folks from those Latin American countries most of the ones who are still trying to get into our country by any way possible? Yeah, we do some pretty crappy stuff, and did much crappier stuff in the past, but that doesn't mean that all people don't see the good in America still. While I haven't spent any time in the Middle East, I spent a summer in an overwhelmingly muslim West African country, and they all wanted to go to America even though none of them liked our leader, Dubya. We've obviously not meddled in West Africa in recent history like we have the Middle East, but I would not be surprised at all if you could find a significant proportion of people even in Iran who would be pro West. I'm not saying sanctions are the best option, but there isn't reason to abandon all hope.

Except for maybe the bastards who have gotten rich and the hard core Islamists, the rest of Iran wish they could live in the US and most have relatives that do and would love a normal government.

You don’t think the people of Honduras, Venezuela or El Salvador wouldn’t get on their hands and knees for some TR style gunboat diplomacy by the US to help fix their messes in their country. Hell, if the UN declared them US mandates to help get rid of the gangs, I’m sure there would be support from the natives

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9 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:




3. Kill Khamenei. He is the prime stumbling block and this where assassinations can be used for good. I would have Maduro in Venezuela killed too.

 

The Shias would love that. Do you think the Catholics would be pissed if we assassinated the Pope?  

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Don't confuse liking some Americans or wanting to live in America with political attitudes toward America.

American churches and charities have done wonderful things in Latin America. American government trained death and torture squads, put puppet governments in place in order to allow American corporations to reap the wealth of the countries. We are guilty of crimes against humanity in Latin America.

Maybe the Iranians have forgotten the Shah and Savak, our viral injections into their world. I doubt it. American involvement with Iran and most of the MidEast except Saudi and Israel has been stupid, violent, and inconsistent. Arabs and Persians wanting to live here likely has no bearing in how they view us in their own countries.

Maybe they feel about our meddling the same way we feel about Russian meddling in the US. Maybe they're sort of like us that way.

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7 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:


Except for maybe the bastards who have gotten rich and the hard core Islamists, the rest of Iran wish they could live in the US and most have relatives that do and would love a normal government.

You don’t think the people of Honduras, Venezuela or El Salvador wouldn’t get on their hands and knees for some TR style gunboat diplomacy by the US to help fix their messes in their country. Hell, if the UN declared them US mandates to help get rid of the gangs, I’m sure there would be support from the natives

I'll add that this sounds an awful lot like, "Inside every gook there's an American trying to get out."

We're arrogant and vain that way.

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4 minutes ago, Lagunamadre said:

The Shias would love that. Do you think the Catholics would be pissed if we assassinated the Pope?  

They'd feel liberated and fall on their hands and knees in gratitude.

There's some crazy shit on this page.

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48 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

1. Apply pressure on the thugocracy which thanks to Trump we are doing.

Not really. What little "pressure" is being applied on Iran is just backfiring as usual because it's a stupid idea. When you levy sanctions on a government, the wish and hope is that the crippling of the citizenry will galvanize them to turn on the country's leader. That almost never happens because it's an easy-as-shit propaganda tool to use: "look, the US is the one that's fucking y'all over. It's not us."

33 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

2. Don’t support any groups threatening the territorial integrity of Iran.

Well that would include the US and Israeli governments because they've been repeatedly calling for Iran's destruction for well over a decade by now. Really all you're left with are governments that are supportive of Iran and Iranians themselves in terms of people who fit that description.

33 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

3. Kill Khamenei. He is the prime stumbling block and this where assassinations can be used for good. I would have Maduro in Venezuela killed too.

Ha. Yeah, just like killing Saddam Hussein worked so well for the people of Iraq, right? Symbolic killings appeal only to the symbol-minded. Killing the head of state might make you personally feel good, but the issue isn't what makes you feel good. It's about what's best for Iranians in general, and for a foreign power to kill him would only incite them further. I mean just look at us. Most of the country finds Donald Trump to be a pathetic, loathsome creature and they'd like nothing more than to see him take a long walk off a short pier, but I'll be goddamned if anyone can find any respectably sized demographic who would support getting rid of him via assassination by a foreign power.

33 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

4. Call for a national referendum for free elections in Iran without any vetting by the Islamic theocrats

What makes you think the United States is interested in free elections in the Islamic world? Did you not read the Palestine Papers w/r/t the US' dismissive attitude towards the idea of hoaxing the 2006 PLC election? If the US' desire for free elections in the Middle East were fuel, it wouldn't power a flea's motorcycle around a drop of rain. You know better than that.

33 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Obviously #3 is a wish but the rest of these items are doable

They're also detestable.

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2 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:


Do other countries have the US military, economic clout and diplomatic pull that we can point to to counter any attempt by an adversary to assassinate our own people? We have the might and ability to get away with assassinations just like Israel and we wouldn’t be stupid like MBS was in killing Khashoggi in our own consulate. I didn’t agree with Orca on virtually anything except for sanctions are a poor substitute to dropping a bomb or having a sniper blow Khamenei’s head off.

So it's a question of efficacy then?  If a country (Russia, China, DPRK, etc.) had enough to gain from such a plan such that the risk was outweighed you would be okay with it?  As a less extreme example, how about if they meddled with our elections?  Under your logic, if it would be okay for us I don't see why someone else shouldn't be able to do the same if it makes sense for them to do so.  

Edited by Fozzz

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46 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Not really. What little "pressure" is being applied on Iran is just backfiring as usual because it's a stupid idea. When you levy sanctions on a government, the wish and hope is that the crippling of the citizenry will galvanize them to turn on the country's leader. That almost never happens because it's an easy-as-shit propaganda tool to use: "look, the US is the one that's fucking y'all over. It's not us."

Well that would include the US and Israeli governments because they've been repeatedly calling for Iran's destruction for well over a decade by now. Really all you're left with are governments that are supportive of Iran and Iranians themselves in terms of people who fit that description.

Ha. Yeah, just like killing Saddam Hussein worked so well for the people of Iraq, right? Symbolic killings appeal only to the symbol-minded. Killing the head of state might make you personally feel good, but the issue isn't what makes you feel good. It's about what's best for Iranians in general, and for a foreign power to kill him would only incite them further. I mean just look at us. Most of the country finds Donald Trump to be a pathetic, loathsome creature and they'd like nothing more than to see him take a long walk off a short pier, but I'll be goddamned if anyone can find any respectably sized demographic who would support getting rid of him via assassination by a foreign power.

What makes you think the United States is interested in free elections in the Islamic world? Did you not read the Palestine Papers w/r/t the US' dismissive attitude towards the idea of hoaxing the 2006 PLC election? If the US' desire for free elections in the Middle East were fuel, it wouldn't power a flea's motorcycle around a drop of rain. You know better than that.

They're also detestable.

Asking for free elections with no vetting is detestable in your view?

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49 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

So it's a question of efficacy then?  If a country (Russia, China, DPRK, etc.) had enough to gain from such a plan such that the risk was outweighed you would be okay with it?  As a less extreme example, how about if they meddled with our elections?  Under your logic, if it would be okay for us I don't see why someone else shouldn't be able to do the same if it makes sense for them to do so.  

We have and continue to meddle in foreign elections, even those of allies like Israel, when Obama wanted anyone to the left of Netanyahu. As for the Russians doing it to us, that’s fair game in my book and have to tip your cap to them on what they pulled off. Try harder to prevent them from doing it again. 

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44 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Asking for free elections with no vetting is detestable in your view?

They’re not interested in free elections in the Middle East. That’s make believe and pretend, and that’s why it’s detestable.

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Massive thread bump here, although I must say that @hpslugga's post above is rather on point for 2020 in America.

Ran across this in the morning news and um it's a little concerning:

I'm becoming so jaded by Trump and his people, that I'm torn between believing that she is a target by Iranian govt vs our own (as a sacrificial lamb). It is awful to even consider but here we are 2020. Where re-election desperation has no boundaries.

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6 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Massive thread bump here, although I must say that @hpslugga's post above is rather on point for 2020 in America.

Ran across this in the morning news and um it's a little concerning:

I'm becoming so jaded by Trump and his people, that I'm torn between believing that she is a target by Iranian govt vs our own (as a sacrificial lamb). It is awful to even consider but here we are 2020. Where re-election desperation has no boundaries.

Starting wars doesn't seem to be Trumps thing, so I don't believe she's gonna be set up by our own gov't.  I have no doubt that Iran is planning a tit for tat retaliation, and that does fall squarely on his shoulders based on his approval of the killing of Soleimani, even if it was justified for his past acts.

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8 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Massive thread bump here, although I must say that @hpslugga's post above is rather on point for 2020 in America.

Ran across this in the morning news and um it's a little concerning:

I'm becoming so jaded by Trump and his people, that I'm torn between believing that she is a target by Iranian govt vs our own (as a sacrificial lamb). It is awful to even consider but here we are 2020. Where re-election desperation has no boundaries.

Reichstag fire is very much within the realm of possibility for these traitors.

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10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Starting wars doesn't seem to be Trumps thing, so I don't believe she's gonna be set up by our own gov't.  I have no doubt that Iran is planning a tit for tat retaliation, and that does fall squarely on his shoulders based on his approval of the killing of Soleimani, even if it was justified for his past acts.

That's what I was leaning towards, but I really struggle with the killing of Khassoghi and what really happened with respect to the Administration (and I'm including Jared in this). I mean it's just awful. And we never truly know (despite the hearings) what went on with Yavanovitch as it came across (with respect to the danger) as an "it is what it is" response directly from the CiC. I mean, her life was already at risk just given the circumstances surrounding Ukraine and Russia relations and the elections there, and most career ambassadors seem to understand the circumstances specific to their assignments, but that situation was clouded by the WH intentionally.

I agree that Trump does not seem eager to start foreign wars.

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3 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

That's what I was leaning towards, but I really struggle with the killing of Khassoghi and what really happened with respect to the Administration (and I'm including Jared in this). I mean it's just awful. And we never truly know (despite the hearings) what went on with Yavanovitch as it came across (with respect to the danger) as an "it is what it is" response directly from the CiC. I mean, her life was already at risk just given the circumstances surrounding Ukraine and Russia relations and the elections there, and most career ambassadors seem to understand the circumstances specific to their assignments, but that situation was clouded by the WH intentionally.

I agree that Trump does not seem eager to start foreign wars.

Yep, and who the hell really knows what gov't's do today that we never see, and wouldn't dream they would do.  Nothing surprises me today beyond who wins, and loses sporting events.

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39 minutes ago, Mrs Whiggins said:

Massive thread bump here, although I must say that @hpslugga's post above is rather on point for 2020 in America.

Ran across this in the morning news and um it's a little concerning:

I'm becoming so jaded by Trump and his people, that I'm torn between believing that she is a target by Iranian govt vs our own (as a sacrificial lamb). It is awful to even consider but here we are 2020. Where re-election desperation has no boundaries.

Pre-election Hail Mary from Vlad?

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