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2018 Lawn and Landscape Thread

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2 hours ago, Chilly Water said:

Usually do fall treatment right after Labor Day. Too early I guess

The late winter early spring app is best done before Valentine's day. 

~Sept 5 to Feb 14 is a long stretch to get full control. If you are seeing stuff popping up in Jan get after it then. 

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I put on my application of Milorganite. 


Crabgrass seems to have overrun my St Augustine in large spots. Premergent didn’t hold it at bay. Not seeing many chemical options that are safe for the St Augustine.  Been doing some hand pulling, but that is too little too late.  Hoping the St Augustine will crowd it out here later in the spring if I keep it mowed but a bit longer. Just don’t want to see seed heads on the crabgrass.

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Put pre emergent down in November and again in February, been spot spraying the little bastards that snuck through, and put down a round of 15-0-5 two weeks ago. Yard is starting to green up. I'll put another dose of 15-0-5 down in a few more weeks.

This thread has been great over the years.

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My front yard has St. Augustine that is mostly fine.

My back yard has St. Augustine that has gone to shit. We bought the house last year and it wasn't great then, but we did our best with it. We have a big pecan tree in the back so lots of shade, which I understand is really not a big deal for St. Augustine. Problem #1 is I have dogs that trample the crap out of the lawn as they're chasing squirrels. Problem #2 is the squirrels themselves will dig in the yard and bury pecans and stuff. Problem #3 is the weeds have come out in full force this spring, and the actual St. Augustine seems pretty dormant thus far.

I've been busy so I didn't do any pre-emergent or anything else so far. What's my best bet to repair this thing? I'm not opposed to hiring a treatment service (I'm in FW). I'm also not opposed to buying new sod or paying someone to lay down some fresh sod.

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The dogs are are the toughest part. I would sod it and hope for the best. Some well placed sod staples might help in a corner where they turn sharply. Zoysia is another option in the shade. Or give up the turf, mulch it all, and make a shade garden. Liriope and ophiopogon/monkey grass are pretty damn sturdy against the thundering herd. Cast iron plants, ferns, all sorts of stuff likes shade. 

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11 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

To make dollars and find a use for the municipal sewage of Milwaukee. Those bratwursts gotta go somewhere. 

them brats been keeping my lawn green af for the last 4 years.  bout the only thing i apply besides standard ortho or spectracide a few times in the spring.  

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I am really pleased with Emerald lawn's service since I started using them, and I can't complain too much since this was a free weed follow-up, but still wtf dude...no weather forecast at all?

Any chance that this did any good before the 3" washed it away?

Yesterday afternoon at 2:00 pm we visited your property:
  • Service call follow up on weeds after lawn application.

Products Used:

check.png2.00 Gal - Vessel/Trimec

check.png2.00 Gal - Certainty(weed control)

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I'm a complete amateur in this arena.  Grew up mowing lawns and basic landscaping, but never had to "care" for my own.  Fast forward and I just moved into my first house.  The backyard is in very bad shape.  I will be hiring somebody to help me level the lawn.  Not sure whether I'll have them do sod as well or if I'll take that on.

My first question is in regard to these little piles of excavated dirt that are everywhere (see below).  A little googling seems to infer they are just from earthworms.  I would assume that would be a good thing?  My concern is that they are infant graboids that will eventually grow up and devour my family.



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Yeah that's earthworms. 

The Randy Lemmon calendar is a good start. I have to go salvage stuff from the old place this weekend. That's on the list. 

aggy has a website on nothing but turf.

Aggieturf.tamu.edu no www cuz they're special 

Edited by cactusflinthead
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Bermuda lawn. Have some low spots that are becoming very noticeable, in particular with the pooling of water from recent moist stuff. Also ground balls in the backyard with the boy can be a beating sometimes. What is the preferred leveling material. 


*also, pos rep cactus when my daily limit resets. 

Edited by Anastasis
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about to start putting stuff from the old place here. gonna spam the hell out of the thread until I get sick of it

Randy Lemmon's Fert and Pre calendar



When should a pre-emergent be applied?
Before the weed seeds start to sprout. It’s better to be a week too early than a day too late. The old axiom is, “With pre-emergent weedkillers, if you can see the weed growing, you’ve blown it for another whole year.”

 For summer weeds such as grassburs (sandburs) and crabgrass: 2 to 3 weeks before the average date of the last killing freeze for your area. In South Texas that would be late February. In Central and North Central Texas it would be the first two weeks of March. In North Texas it would be the middle two weeks of March. In the Panhandle it would be late March.

 Because these granules are effective for about 100 days you will need to reapply three months later as a “booster shot.” Mark the calendar so you won’t forget. Without this second application the weeds will still germinate later in the season. That second application should be late May in South Texas, early June in Central and North Central Texas, mid-June in North Texas and into the Panhandle.


Neil Sperry, Pre-emergent weedkillers and schedule



Post-emergent: kills what has already germinated and emerged from the soil
Pre-emergent: kills at some stage of development shortly after or during the germination process
selective herbicide: targets one or more species of plants
non-selective:kills everything

common herbicides

Y'all are just gonna just gonna have to put up with some science. I am going to use some fifty cent words and sometimes you are going to have to copy and go look. That's jsut how it is. Get over it. Most of the time I am going to give you at least one or more brand names. I might even include a link to some place to buy it. But eventually you are going to need to look at the label and understand what it means. It is no fucking joke when it says DANGER on the label. Do not fuck around. follow the gotdamn rules. 

Glyphosate: This is Round-Up. It's also sold as a bazillion other names. Ranger Pro, Eliminator!, Eraser!, Cornerstone!
all the same damn stuff. Am I going to pay twice as much for the same thing? Nope, I don't think so. 

2,4-D, dicamba, mecoprop: post-emergent herbicide Trimec, Triple Action, Three Way, Weed-B-Gone and a host of other spins on the idea that it is a combo product of three different things. This is your go to for broadleafed weeds. (Broadleaf weeds are ones like dandelions, clover, chickweed, henbit, essentially the ones that aren't grass or sedge.) 

Pendimethalin: pre-emergent herbicide, granular or liquid(though I am not sure the non-licensed can get the liquid) Halts, Pre-M

Permethrin, pyrethrum, halozetaspasmatronicmethrin. All the children of the pyrethrum daisy

Pyrethrum has been used for centuries as an insecticide,[1] and as a lice remedy in the Middle East (Persian powder, also known as "Persian pellitory"). It was sold worldwide under the brand Zacherlin by Austrian industrialist J. Zacherl.[2] It is one of the most commonly used allowed non-synthetic insecticides in certified organic agriculture.[3]

The flowers should be dried and then crushed and mixed with water.

Pyrethroids are synthetic insecticides based on natural pyrethrum (pyrethrins); one common example is permethrin. A common formulation of pyrethrin is in preparations containing the synthetic chemical piperonyl butoxide: this has the effect of enhancing the toxicity to insects and speeding the effects when compared with pyrethrins used alone. These formulations are known as synergized pyrethrins.

Carbamate/Carbaryl: Sevin

Organoposphate insecticides: Malathion, Dursban, Diazinion, Orthene

Fungicide: kinda self explanatory
Miticide: Odds are long that you would need it, but it's for spider mites. 

Enough of that bullshit. Time to go find some more links.

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Quote Originally Posted by lurch View Post
Keep it as short as possible, prob 1" with a typical walk behind mower. Avoid cutting more than 1/3rd at a time, so mowing when it reaches 1 1/2" down to 1" is good target.

Water when the blades begin closing up. Typically 1", once a week during summer.

1 lb nitrogen per 1000 sq ft, once a month during growing season.

Pre emergent 3 times a year, March/July/Nov




Quote Originally Posted by AUinAustin View Post
Rented an aerator and man that thing will beat you to death... My front yard is small and the back has a triangle shaped landscape bed in the center (about 20 ft long). The net result was I was stopping and turning it every 30 seconds. You have to pull up the blades to even think about turning and it weighs about 100 lbs. It does not turn like a mower.. I also forgot to mark sprinkler heads and busted at least one... Off to get compost before the rain and try out sprinklers for first time this year




Quote Originally Posted by TexasEd View Post
Scalping is cutting off the dead tops of the grass that died over the winter when the grass went dormant. I intentionally let my grass get a little longer than usual to go through the winter. When it is longer it helps choke out any winter weeds that want to pop up during the dormancy of the grass and protects the roots. You must bag your clippings or rake them up and remove them. I compost mine.

When your grass shows signs of emerging from dormancy is when you scalp. If you do it before it is growing you will get the weeds so wait until you can see new growth emerging. 

For St. Augustine don't go too low, you need to leave the runners and just take off the top. Raking is a good idea for St. A to get the dead thatch between the runners which can help prevent brown spot mildew later.

For Bermuda take it as low as your mower will go. I have TIF419 which likes to be fairway length. I don't have the time or equipment to keep my yard looking like a golf course so it gets longer as the summer progresses but I take it almost to the soil the first time. I will have to mow it 4 times to get it low enough because the old dead grass is so thick it fills the bag and stops the blade in a few feet.

My dormant Bermuda


is even thicker than the pictures you (Spur08) posted above. Yours looks like Common Bermuda. I recommend you take it almost to the ground. This is what mine looks like starting in mid April
Quote Originally Posted by BatesHorn View Post
Unless something has changed recently, Fescue is a clumping grass, does not spread on it's own. It's sometimes mixed with a touch of bluegrass to fill in gaps. Whatever took over your back yard isn't fescue unless you seeded/sod it where it's growing. 

It's a cool season grass, grows pretty well here in Maryland, but I find it tends to flag a bit in high summer unless fertilized and heavily watered, which can cause Brown Patch. I tend to let my lawn languish in August, both to save money and reduce the amount of fertilizer I'm eventually sending into the Bay (it will go dormant in the heat, so I just water deeply once a week to keep it alive), then I pick it back up in September as the heat begins to break.
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Quote Originally Posted by BatesHorn View Post
Unless something has changed recently, Fescue is a clumping grass, does not spread on it's own. It's sometimes mixed with a touch of bluegrass to fill in gaps. Whatever took over your back yard isn't fescue unless you seeded/sod it where it's growing. 

It's a cool season grass, grows pretty well here in Maryland, but I find it tends to flag a bit in high summer unless fertilized and heavily watered, which can cause Brown Patch. I tend to let my lawn languish in August, both to save money and reduce the amount of fertilizer I'm eventually sending into the Bay (it will go dormant in the heat, so I just water deeply once a week to keep it alive), then I pick it back up in September as the heat begins to break.
Quote Originally Posted by thunderlounge View Post
I'm getting ready to do something similar. On the back (north) side of our house, between the patio and shop doors. Pretty much full shade for me though. It has those stupid paver brick fucking things to edge the front of the bed, and they never stay in place so I'm going to do something else.

As far as plants, I'm going to put in a bunch of shade plants.

2 Regal Blue Hosta
4 Red Trinity Plants
3 Mixed Astilbe
2 Double Blue Barlow Columbine
5 Lily of the Valley plants
2 Cinnamon Ferns

That should do it up pretty good for a shade spot.

Symptoms Take-all is a disease of the roots. Symptoms of take-all root rot usually become apparent from early spring through early summer, suggesting infection may occur during the previous fall. Initially, the affected turf becomes wilted and yellow, followed by the development of thin, bare areas as plants die. These declining areas can be irregular in shape and can vary in size from 1 foot to more than 20 feet in diameter (Figure 1). Turf can usually be pulled from the soil quite easily as a result of infection.


Figuring out how much fert 



How you get the magic one pound of N per thousand is to apply it this formula
Want over got.
I have 1/.15. That is, a 15-5-10 fertilizer has a fifteen percent by volume of nitrogen. I divide that by how many pounds of nitrogen, phosphorous or potassium that I want. 
slow math guy says it is 6 and about a zillion other sixes and a 7. My barely functioning synapses remind me that is 2/3rds. Ok so I want about seven pounds per thousand. That means that 25 lb bag I got should do...3.57 thousand square feet. My lot is 120x80 or 9,600 ft sq. Ok gonna need to get at least 4 bags. Guess I can fling the spare stuff in the bushes. I can go a little heavier, but four bags on a little less than a quarter acre is about right.


I am not leaving out this pic courtesy of Armybrat



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‘Rose rosette is an epidemic, and North Texas is the epicenter’



Symptoms of witches broom were described in the 1940s on roses in Manitoba, Canada (Conners, 1941). In the US, rose plants with similar symptoms were described from Wyoming observed in 1942 (Thomas & Scott, 1953) and subsequently found in other states in the US. In Texas, this "disease" was reported by Dr. G. Philley in 1990 (East Texas). It was found in the Dallas-Fort Worth area in the mid-1990s and has become more prominent there in the last 2-3 years (2011-2013).

Quote Originally Posted by TexasEd View Post
Just take the prickly pear pads and throw them on the ground and they will grow roots from the spots where the spines are or the joints.
Quote Originally Posted by TexasEd View Post
I did mine with wire mesh. I like the 1x2" mesh the best, it is not as sharp as the smaller mesh and stands up to being leaned on. You need to use about 6' circumference to get a big enough pile the center stays moist and hot. 

I put down alternating layers of brown leaves and green grass clippings. When I have vegetable scraps I dig in the center and bury them in the middle. Mine is out by the green belt and I never see rodents in it because the grass and leaves keep them from the kitchen stuff. Large scarab beetles will lay eggs in it and I get grubs out of it the size of my thumb.

Turn the pile over monthly.
Weed management in Lawns  UC Davis, good stuff
The use of corn gluten meal as an herbicide was discovered by accident during turfgrass disease research at Iowa State University. Researchers noticed that it prevented grass seeds from sprouting. Further research at Iowa State showed that it also effectively prevents other seeds from sprouting, including seeds from many weeds such as crabgrass, chickweed, and even dandelions. Components in corn gluten meal called dipeptides are apparently responsible for herbicidal activity.
Researchers at Oregon State University were not able to duplicate research results reported by Iowa State researchers, said OSU turf grass specialist Tom Cook. A former graduate student, Chris Hilgert completed his masters thesis by investigating corn gluten meal use as a pre-emergent herbicide in shrub beds and on lawns.
In their trials with corn gluten meal, Hilgert and Cook found the following:
Corn gluten meal did not control any weeds in any trials under any circumstances over a two-year period. They found no evidence of pre- or post-emergence weed control in any of their trials. Because it contains 10 percent nitrogen, corn gluten meal proved to be a very effective fertilizer, causing lush, dense growth of turfgrass and of weeds in shrub beds.
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3lg.jpgHere are a couple plants I know can take the direct blasting sun in Austin AND survive the numerous deer munching in my hood. My rule of thumb for most plant's potential Deer survival, is if it smells, it might survive. My other rule of thumb is how skinny is the plant? Thin does better, thin grasses, thin shrubs, thin stalks seem to fade the heat better. So anyhow here a few I guarantee will last in your Central Texas sun inferno!

Pride of Barbados is a great summer color spot that attracts butterflies and bees. You cut ti down to ground after freeze(if that ever happens in Austin) and they can grow pretty large. Or you can trim and keep smaller, but once established very hearty,http://bexar-tx.tamu.edu/homehort/ar...xas-superstar/



 Texas AgriLife Extension - City of Austin Native Adapted Landscape Plants Guide. This is a great guide to see what plants are native to the area and will do well.



That's Blain's rec for a guide. it should be required reading

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Kill the ones that are up. Put down some kind of pre. If you missed some, well you caught others. Check Home Depot too, feed store or other fertilizer type purveyor for larger size pre-emergent. 

Your choice of tool to apply a post-emergent spray depends on the size of the target area. If you are dealing with multiple acres you want to work with then I really recommend at least the first pass being hired out. If you want to invest in the spray tank set up for a four wheeler or other set up, that's up to you. Most of the commercial guys will charge you by the acre or square foot. The same stuff they use in the pasture is what you use in the yard. It is not that drastically different. They may have to switch products simply to satisfy the feds, but the active ingredients are the same. Call it a quirk of the law. I cannot by federal law spray what is designated for one area on another. That is a serious No No. 

Allow me to tell an apocryphal tale and wax poetic on this SuperBowly evening. 

Some years ago there was a school district in Louisiana that had roaches and other bugs in an elementary. 
Somebody decided it was a good idea to have the custodian do the work. Maybe he even volunteered.
Hell, Mizzus Lammus I can spray for roaches. I have plenty of stuff at the house I use on stuff in the field. I can handle it. No need to make that call to the bug man. 
Bad plan coach. 

Standard procedure on doing a spray for roaches around your place and mine is to work the perimeter. Roaches and other vermin love the baseboards, the corners, and the edges of the space. Therefore we concentrate our efforts there. There is no need to spray the entire area. Hit the perimeter and keep moving. Do each and every room. Put a bead all the way around. Leave the vastness of the open areas alone. 

That isn't what our friendly denizen of Louisiana did. He soaked down the carpet from one end of the hall to the other. There wasn't one stitch that didn't feel the spray of his tank. Who knows what he used to spray it with. It might have been a cow soaker. Who knows?

When they opened the doors that Monday morning I don't think they had a cloud of green gas appear. But it was stout enough they called class off for the day. 
Or was it a couple of months. Had to rip out a lot of shit and replace it. Had to fumigate the place. It might have smelled like malathion a year later. Maybe they even had to demolish the place and start over. 

I told you this was apocryphal and we are talking about Louisiana, but this is as I heard it. 
Anyhow after all this went down and letters to Congresscritters and Governors and Senators and anybody else she had a mind to send a stern letter it was decided we should have rules and shit. You and me have got to have some sort of certification so we don't end up on the nightly news or tomorrow's paper. It mostly works. 

tl/dr version. Spray standard post-emergent broadleaf, apply pre-emergent and keep feeding and watering in season. Do not be alarmed. You might miss some, but you will catch others. Better late than never.



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Quote Originally Posted by Rigo84 View Post
Finally going to start taking care of my lawn. Need some advice for st augustine, on dethatching and aerating. Are both processes necessary or is aerating more important and enough? Best times to do these in Dallas area? Wanted to do some herbicide and fertilizer as per the chart but should I do aerating/dethatching first? Complete newby to yard maintenance so sorry if these are dumb questions.

Aerate before applying pre-emergent. You can post-emergent spray before. Think of a pre-emergent as like a chemical barrier in the first half inch to inch of soil. Any disruption of that force field will allow the seeds to come up in that spot. You are going to make a lot of spots. If you would like to do some back fill/top dressing of compost that is the time to do it after aeration. Rake off the plugs, compost them and then fling it out with something. Smaller spots it is wheelbarrow, garden rake and a shovel. Big areas, hire it done or rent something. I had a discussion today about the varying qualities of the available top dressing. The compost was a little too chunky to suit me, so we went with the 50/50 compost and sandy loam. If the compost had been a finer grind and a little heavier I would have gone straight compost, but you take what you can get. 

No fertilizer yet. Wait. Kill shit and make holes in the dirt is all good, but it is too soon to feed unless you are in the valley or something. 30% green up is the general rule. If you tweak it too soon you can over-amp it. I had a prof describe it as a start-up company. A whole lotta out-go and not a lotta income. It is working off last years carbos at the first of the season. Until it is somewhere past a quarter awake, a good solid growing bunch of grass, it is using its savings from last year. Forcing it with nitrogen makes it burn through that carbo store even faster. Waiting is rarely a bad plan on fertilizer.

Dog gonna dog FC. Is there a spot they like more than others? Sometimes they just wanna make a nest. I have known dogs that like to eat grubs.Sweatergawd, they acted like those fat white grubs were candy. If you think they are eating bugs and not making a nest you can kill off the food source. It's what usually works for armadillos for the same reason. If they are trying to find a spot to stay warm or cool, well...there is the option of laying in a fence panel to deny them. Pain in the ass, but it hardens the target.

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Fig ivy is not very hardy up north. Ficus pumila is the proper name. Boston Ivy changes colors and can cover a lot of territory. There are basically two methods of something climbing; it has 'holdfasts' or it twines around something. Boston Ivy, English Ivy, Fig ivy, and Asian jasmine have some form of holdfast. In the case of Boston Ivy and it's kin Virginia creeper it has tiny suction cup looking things that attach to surfaces, the others are more tendril or root-like. Ones like Carolina jessamine, roses or crossvine need some sort of structure to climb onto. It can be as simple as a piece of bailing wire. It can be anything you can attach to the wall by whatever means you decide. Bougainvillea and mandevilla are the same. They twine or are trained to a trellis. 

Then there is the espalier. Training something like a pyracantha to a wall. There are numerous options there too. 

If you held a gun to my head and told me to pick one for overall toughness and ease of care I would probably say Boston Ivy. I can grow it in almost any USDA freeze zone, it does better north, but will grow south.

I tend to agree with Ed. 

I think it is fine for the most part but it can lead to premature crumbling of the mortar. Does that mean it crumbles in 40 years instead of 80 or 20 instead of 40?

How many buildings can we think of with vines growing on it that are older than you and me put together? The issues I have seen are when it is allowed to get overgrown and it gets into windows or other woodwork. If you do decide to remove it at some point it is a pain in the ass to get every bit of it off the building. I haven't seen a problem, in my experience, with it being a detriment to the mortar. I would venture that of all those we have mentioned fig ivy is the slowest growing and least likely to become a problem. It should be just fine as far as the cold is concerned in the Austin area. There's tons of it down there. I see it occasionally this far north, but it gets some winter damage sometimes.



The home depot on lemon Ave in Dallas has an aerator for rent, $57/4hrs (which is the minimum) or $82/day. Assuming it's no more difficult to use than pushing a lawn mower, i would think i could do my lawn in less than an hour. If those assumptions are correct, I'd split the rental with a handful of y'all, if others are interest. (M streets area)

How big of a benefit does aerating a lawn offer? Google doesn't seem to give straight answers on the subject. I've never even known of anyone that aerated their lawn, but there's a significant buildup of tatch in my lawn and have been considering aerating it for the last couple of years.

Ha-ha it's opposite of a lawn mower and it fucking sucks!  Blain


You push lawnmower, aerator pulls you. A lawnmower skims over the surface of the turf while an aerator pulls plugs of dirt out of it. It is closer akin to tilling than it is to mowing. The mower does not ordinarily punch holes in things like sprinkler heads or valve boxes. An aerator when engaged lowers the handle end, forces you to bend over and chase it across the yard. It is a beating of the highest order. Brace yourself.

It is however a good tool for reducing compaction. It is also good for getting the compost down into the soil rather than it being perched on top of the turf. In the case of Spur08 and his shitty dirt underneath the sod, which I also have in some areas of McKinney/Prosper/Frisco, it is about all we can do to get compost down into that caliche-like layer that was the base material left behind after they leveled the field in preparation for building. The M Streets are less likely to have that situation. It is still going to benefit you. Taking a plug of dirt out and replacing it with compost or letting it fill in slowly with rain and irrigation will still benefit you. Increasing the ability of water to penetrate the soil and reducing compaction are the main things it does. It is not absolutely necessary in a home setting, but in a highly trafficked area or one that has problems getting water down into the root zone it can be very beneficial.

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2c282c27153153b33dded0ed8f9949f2.jpgMore on fungus and their kin

The most important factor in reducing the threat of Phytophthora rot is good water management. Avoid prolonged saturation of the soil or standing water around the base of trees or other susceptible plants. Irrigate only as much and as often as necessary; in an orchard, keep track of the soil moisture around each tree and water only when necessary. If you irrigate trees with sprinklers, use low-angle sprinkler heads and splitters to avoid wetting the trunk and lower branches. If using a drip system, place the emitters at least a foot away from the trunk. Avoid planting susceptible species on poorly drained or shallow soils. Water stress and/or salinity make some plant species more susceptible to infection when wetted subsequently by irrigation or rains.

For all vegetable and orchard plants, provide good soil drainage. Good soil drainage is best provided before planting. Drainage should be plentiful to the rooting depth of the plants, generally 3 to 6 feet for trees, 2 to 4 feet for shrubs, and 1 to 2 feet for bedding plants. During favorable weather you do not want the roots and crown of a plant to remain wet for the 4 to 8 hours that are required for Phytophthora to infect the plant.

Provide adequate drainage by breaking through soil compaction and hardpan. In poorly drained soils, or in an area where you know Phytophthora is present, consider planting trees and shrubs on mounds. The mounds should be 8 to 10 inches high. Planting depth after settling should be no deeper than as received from the nursery, with the upper roots near the soil level and the graft union well above the soil line. Do not install irrigated turf around the base of trees, remove all weeds, and do not water the crown area directly. Never cover the graft union with soil or mulch. If you are not sure where the graft union is, ask someone at the nursery to show you and mark it. Raised beds provide good drainage in vegetable garden situations also. Group plants according to their irrigation needs. Separate those needing frequent, light irrigations, such as potatoes and strawberries, from those needing infrequent, deep irrigations, such as tomatoes and melons.

At the first signs of aboveground symptoms, examine the tree at the soil line for crown rot. Carefully cut away bark that looks affected. If crown rot is present, trees can sometimes be saved by removing soil from the base of the tree down to the top of the main roots and allowing the crown tissue to dry out.

Phytophthora Root and Crown Rot in the Garden, UC IPM, August 2006

blah blah blah, don't water too much and have good drainage. Thanks Sherlock.

buried down at the bottom

Chemical control
The most effective way of preventing Phytophthora rot diseases is to provide good drainage and to practice good water management. Along with the appropriate cultural controls, the fungicide fosetyl-al (Aliette) may be used on a number of ornamental plant species to help prevent Phytophthora infections. When applied as a foliar spray it is absorbed by foliage and moves into roots. However, do not rely on fungicide applications alone to control root and crown rot diseases.

More on the fungus in question.

Collar, foot, root, and crown rots—Phytophthora spp.
Several species of the Phytophthora fungi infect the roots or crowns of landscape plants. Plants wilt and leaves become discolored, stunted, and drop prematurely. Often a vertical streak, stain, or canker becomes visible on infected trunks. A cinnamon brown or dark gray discoloration may be seen beneath the bark. Black or reddish sap may ooze from darkened areas of infected bark. Infected mature plants grow slowly and may gradually decline. Twigs and branches die back and the entire plant can be killed.

Same source. UC IPM

Yet mo studies. This guy is even more vague. Understandably so, this is a difficult problem and nobody wants to say its fucking hopeless. Except when we are trying to scare you with some clickbait about the death of the Cavendish banana cultivar. Anyhow here is soybeans, yes they get this shit too. 

Root diseases of soybean cause substantial yield reduction in the United States. Fusarium and Phytophthora represent groups of fungal pathogens commonly associated with root rot of soybean. Little is known regarding their distribution, etiology, and how they may interact in causing root rot on soybean. Additionally, diagnostic tools that allow for rapid and accurate detection of these pathogens are essential for disease management, but need to be developed and validated. Furthermore, fungicidal compounds that potentially affect root infection by these fungal pathogens are being studied to minimize yield losses due to root diseases of soybean and improve crop productivity.

Fusarium and Phytophthora Species associated with root rot of soybean (Glycine max)
Bienapfl, John Christopher (2011) Univ of Minnesota

I would venture that the same can be said of many species. We don't know a whole helluva lot. Sweatergawd I should have marked that page I saw of that Taiwan study that prof did on mulches for fusarium on tomatoes. I kinda sorta remember the recipe but I would dearly love to see his paper again. It is buried in last year's gardening thread and despite several tries I have yet to make the shag search cough it up. It was coir, oyster shell grindings, pig shit and....dammit. 

Note to self, screen save more stuff.

Ok, this sums up something I have been wanting to say but was concerned about muddying the water too much. I have called phythopthora a fungus, technically it isn't. It is akin to them, but it has some differences. It is simpler than what we know as a mushroom or even a mold. 

Phytophthora species belong to a group of eukaryotic microorganisms
classified as oomycetes that are phylogenetically distant
from true fungi. Species of the oomycete genus Phytophthora are
destructive pathogens, causing extensive losses in agricultural
crops and natural ecosystems. Due to their distinct physiological
and biochemical characteristics, it is difficult to efficiently control
the diseases caused by these pathogens. Current disease control
measures are largely dependent on application of chemicals, and
novel approaches are urgently needed. It is difficult to control
Phytophthora diseases in the tropics because of its wide host range
and environmental conditions that are conducive to disease development.
Generally the infection goes unnoticed until symptoms
like foliar yellowing or wilting appears.

Outreach Project on

Indian Institute of Spices Research 2010-2011

There is a shit load of stuff there. 100 pages of enough research to send you into a coma with tired head. It will take me a while to plow through it.

And here's what my standard rotation looks like. It includes some of the chemical names, but it will be tricky for the non-licensed person to get this stuff. It isn't particularly dangerous or toxic, but it is not sold OTC at your local hardware or feed store. 

The best control of Phytophthora and Pythium spp. on ornamentals occurs when Subdue is applied as a soil drench. Aliette drenches are nearly as effective and sometimes more effective than Subdue. When Aliette is applied as a foliar spray, efficacy is usually a little lower than a drench of either Subdue or Aliette. Terrazole and Truban drenches can also be effective but are usually a little less effective than Subdue drenches. It is perhaps a little confusing to find Subdue listed as both "excellent" and "good" in the table for a single plant. This variability in the degree of control can be explained by the effect of disease pressure since under very severe conditions a fungicide generally does not work as well as it can under more normal conditions. Overall, Subdue gives good to excellent control of these diseases depending on disease pressure. Only a few tests were performed with Previcur N but they showed that this compound had a significantly lower efficacy than the other fungicides. This conclusion has been supported by researchers working on other ornamentals.

University of Florida, IFAS,
Central Florida Research and Education Center - Apopka, 
2807 Binion Rd. Apopka. FL 32703.
CFREC-Apopka Research Report, RH-93-3



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Going to post these two links again. Take All Root Rot, good pix and fungicide recs. 

Going to pimp Bob Whitney again. The man knows his stuff. A more concise diagnosis of symptoms I have not found. 

The fungi causing Rhizoctonia blight primarily attacks the base of the leaf blade causing roughly circular patches with symptoms of yellowing and wilting turf to appear. An easy test to determine the presence of this disease is to pull on affected leaf blades in areas of lawns that display symptoms and determine if the leaves are diseased. When Rhizoctonia blight is active, leaf blades can easily be pulled away from the St. Augustinegrass stolons and display a basal rot of the leaf sheath at the point of attachment to the stolons.
The fungi causing Take-All Root Rot initially attacks the root system of the affected turfgrass plants and eventually works its way into the stolons and crown (growing points) of the plant. Symptoms for this disease include: stems (stolons) that pull up from the ground easily, similar to grub damage, brown to black roots, and small dark spots on the stems. Unlike white grubworm damage where roots are cut off by insect chewing, the TARR disease causes roots to remain attached to stolons and become withered and brown.
Unlike Brown patch, the Take-All Root Rot fungi can commonly destroy large areas of turfgrass. Although this disease is primarily active when soil temperatures are cool, effects of the fungus activity can extend into the summer period where turf becomes yellow, thinned and weak growing during the hot periods of the year.
While both of these diseases attack most turfgrasses, they are primarily a problem on St. Augustinegrass. The real key to controlling these two diseases, especially Take-All Root Rot, is to prevent stress in the turfgrass plants. Common stress problems found in turfgrass sites include: Excess shade; Thatch; Soil compaction; Poor drainage; improper use of herbicides; Over fertilization; Excess supplemental irrigation.

and this right here is what I would rec for St. Aug in the early part of the year

Topdressing with peat: For Take-All Root Rot Control, research at the Texas A&M Research Experiment Station in Dallas showed that topdressing at a rate of 1 bale (bag) of peat moss (approximately 3.8 cu. ft.) per 1000 sq. ft. of turf area was sufficient to protect turf for 2 years. The acidity in the peat moss (pH = 4.4) was shown to suppress the fungi causing the take-all root rot.

Bob Whitney might be a 2%er. 


That sumbitch made his blog invite only. I might have to send him an email and plead

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Dinitroanilines are intermediates in the preparation of various industrially important chemicals including dyes and pesticides. Herbicides which are derivatives of dinitroanilines include benfluralin, butralin, chlornidine, dinitramine, dipropalin, ethalfluralin, fluchloralin, isopropalin, methalpropalin, nitralin, oryzalin, pendimethalin, prodiamine, profluralin, and trifluralin.

Herbicide Mode of Action Categories

Herbicides Causing Injury to Old Growth and With the Potential to Move Only Upward
Photosynthesis Inhibitors
Triazines, Uracils, Phenyl-carbamates, Pyridazinones: Site of Action Group 5 - Inhibitors of photosynthesis at photosystem II, Site A. Blocks electron transport and the transfer of light energy.
Herbicides Applied to the Soil With the Potential to Injure Emerging Seedlings
Seedling (or Cell) Growth Inhibitors
Dinitroanalines and Pyridines (dithiopyr): Site of Action Group 3 - Microtubule assembly inhibitors, tubulin protein involved in cell division, interrupts mitosis (root inhibitors).
• Carbamothioates and Phosphorodithioates: Site of Action Group 8 - Conjugation of acetyl co-enzyme A, specific site unknown (shoot inhibitors).

Plant Injury Symptoms
Dinitroanalines: Injury symptoms include stunted plants that do not fully emerge from the soil and short, thick, lateral roots. Grass (including corn) shoots are short and thick and may appear red or purple in colour. Broadleaf plants may have swollen and cracked hypocotyls (area below cotyledons). There is very little movement of these herbicides within the plant. Some resistance issues.

Lawn Preemergence Herbicides to Prevent Winter Annual Weeds

Excellent chart of active ingredients and trade names


Hi-Yield Crabgrass Control
Andersons Fortify Crabgrass Preventer w/Team 
Lebanon Team 2G Herbicide 
Helena Pro-Mate Fertilizer 0-0-7 Contains Team

Hi-Yield Turf & Ornamental Weed & Grass Stopper
Green Light Crabgrass Preventer w/ Dimension
Sta Green Crabgrass Preventer 
Helena Pro-Mate Dimension & Fertilizer 0-0-7
Southern States Premium 0-0-7 Crabgrass Control

Scotts Halts Crabgrass Preventer
BASF Pendulum 2G Granule Herbicide 
Lesco Pre-M 0-0-7

Anderson’s Apt Crabgrass Preventer with Balan
Lebanon Balan 8.5G 
Hi-Yield Balan

selected entries from the Clempson link above

All right, there's the background stuff. Short answer is that you want to switch between categories to manage resistance. There are several products that fall into the dinitroaniline group. Pyridine has the same mode of action, so it is in the same group even if it differs in chemical structure. 
Simazine/Princep is in another category, the triazines. 
Balan is in a third category, phosphorodithioates. 

All of these are available on the open market. The idea is to use a variation of modes of action so that we do not build up a resistant population. If I use one or more of the dinitroaniline/pyridine group I would want to switch to a triazine or balan. 

I don't really have a favorite. I look at cost per square foot, its effectiveness on target weeds, its duration of effect, and whether or not I need to rotate in a new group. I am on a 3 year cycle for pre-emergents. After three years of a group it is time to switch to another one.

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Trimming before transplant is a myth. It adds more stress. Crepe myrtles are hardy as hell. Get as much root as possible, but key is to keep it properly watered for weeks after moving.
Woodpecker is looking for dinner. deterrents are your best bet.
Typical damage can be a single row of small holes or several rows close together around the trunk or branches. Woodpeckers are drilling these holes to feed on sap and the insects attracted to it. Just because a woodpecker is feeding on a tree, does not mean the tree is infested with insects. Although some woodpeckers do feed on wood boring insects, bark lice and other pests harmful to trees.

In severe cases, the rows of holes can be drilled so close together that entire patches of bark and wood are removed. If the tree is small and the damage is extensive, the tree could be girdled. This results in reducing the tree’s ability to transport water and nutrients, and the tree could die. This is rare, and most damage should not be a concern. Woodpeckers choose trees for no particular reason, but tree species with softer bark or high sugar content in their sap are favored. Some trees are repeatedly chosen over and over each year due to habit and migratory patterns.

Physical Repellents:

Wrap burlap or other materials loosely around the area being tapped
Smear a sticky repellent material on the affected area such as: Tanglefoot, Roost-No-More, or Bird Stop
Visual Repellents:

Hang shiny metal objects (aluminum) or brightly colored plastics on or around the tree
Noise Repellents:

Play bird distress calls or any other loud noises. Ex: propane cannons, fuse ropes, bird banger rockets, screamers, electronic scare devices or music.

In summary, it’s best not to worry about the damage already caused by woodpeckers. Instead, implementation of deterrents may be the best strategy in coping with further damage. This also aids in the prevention of any initial destruction.
The Migratory Bird Treaty Act prohibits the killing of woodpeckers without a permit.

(Just so you fuckers can't complain if somebody catches you shooting it with your pellet gun.)
References: North Central Forest Experiment Station, Forest Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, St. Paul, Minnesota
Kentucky Department of Fish & Wildlife Resources
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Punching holes in the turf at casa de stanco Saturday, then throwing down some drugs shortly after. We have a local feed store that made up a mix of fertilizer that is for our specific area soil ph.  I'll cheat and mix in some iron, just to piss off the neighbors. 

Weed yards. Worse than left lane drivers and Arkansas fans. (Purposly left out ou).


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19 minutes ago, Eddyline said:

My Bermuda 419 has been invaded by common Bermuda. Any suggestions for getting rid of the common Bermuda (besides re-sodding)?

Apparently this is common per our agronimist at my golf course. Floratam and 419 and other strains go back 'to their roots' for lack of better term. I didn't ask him why. But every 10 years or so we rip and re-sod to get the fine blades back. 

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6 hours ago, Mac8111 said:

Is there a lawn care playbook that one of you has in regards to a typical Bermuda lawn?   When do I apply what?

This is a plan I pieced together from information I've gathered on the other site and from reading through the links that cactus has provided. Seems to be doing ok so far but I'm sure some of the experts could add to it and make suggestions to make it better.

February - pre emergent (amaze grass and weed preventer is what I've been using)

March - 15-5-10 (sta green Texas turf)

April - 15-5-10

May - milorganite and another round of premergent

June - ironite

July - 15-5-10 and a round of Bayer advanced fungus control

August - milorganite

September - Bayer advanced fungus control

October - broadleaf spray and another round of pre emergent

November - 18-6-12 winterizer




Edited by chikin23
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33 minutes ago, Eddyline said:

I've been mowing at 9/16 with a reel mower, hoping that the 419 will out-compete the common,  but not much luck.

There isn't a whole helluva lot that I have found so far. The only thing that has struck the brain pan is to slow down the common is a growth regulator. I found this from 1990


The problems with fairway bermuda encroachment and surface contamination/ mutation ofbermudgrass greens in Florida have been so pronounced that the replanting of greens every 10 years has been a common practice. In some cases it has been necessary to regrass greens in six to eight years. These expectations have made it even more difficult to justify the long-term benefits of proper putting green construction techniques.


While applications of siduron, or other selective herbicides, are not effective with bermuda greens, mechanical edging has a place. Ideally, the same grass used for the greens should be established on the collars. Mechanically edging the outside perimeter of the collars once or twice per month during active growth and hand pulling any runners that have encroached are definitely worthwhile.



56 minutes ago, markstanco said:

Apparently this is common per our agronimist at my golf course. Floratam and 419 and other strains go back 'to their roots' for lack of better term. I didn't ask him why. But every 10 years or so we rip and re-sod to get the fine blades back. 

I see it in other stuff too. Carissa hollies will sprout from the roots back to their Chinese pricklyashell holly forbears. This deserves some more research. Picking out a common bermuda from a hybrid seems like a tough nut to crack. I have been able to get bermuda out of zoysia with some fusilade/.fluazifop but I don't think that would work on a tif. 

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2 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

That picture with the tents is mine from a few years ago.  Just did another camp out on Friday night with 2 of my kids.  TIF 419 is starting to green up.  Here is a picture from today.

I'll let you know when it looks like the above picture again.



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