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The Robert Mueller Investigation


Hugo Stiglitz

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1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Interesting callouts.  Do any of the FOX talking geniuses need to follow your advice?

lol who are you talking to?

There is a hopeful possibility, a glimmer of light in the darkness, that the libs will become sane and focus on real issues.

There is no hope for FOX. It's not even worth talking about it.

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Just now, bad_teammate said:

lol who are you talking to?

There is a hopeful possibility, a glimmer of light in the darkness, that the libs will become sane and focus on real issues.

There is no hope for FOX. It's not even worth talking about it.

That's why I thought it was really weird.  I just don't see Maddow or Lieu as emblematic of the problem.

Carry on . . .

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6 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

I'm guessing this is going nowhere since the Mueller team has ended, no?

If Mueller thought it was important, I don't think he would have wrapped up the investigation.  (This assumes he had full authority to continue the investigation if he felt it was warranted.)

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1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

It would be really cool if people like Maddow and Twitter Congressmorons like Ted Lieu would start focusing on real issues that impact real Americans now.

Do some reporting on child care needs. Do some reporting on the uninsured. Do some reporting on the horrible lives of both the people hounded by debt collectors and the debt collectors themselves. Do something useful for once.

Yeah, nothing on real issues gets done until the corruption problem is tackled first.  How can our elected officials make decisions and debate in good faith when they're financially compromised by special interests and foreign governments?  The gun debate and the NRA influence is the best example of this.  The Russia investigation is about CORRUPTION first and foremost. It's the same kind of subversion tactics the billionaires have been using on the population for years, they just don't get called out on it enough.  Shining a big spotlight on it through the Russia investigation and passing new anti-corruption laws is the best path to addressing the "real issues that impact real Americans now". 

If we don't get our democracy functioning better, what hope do the helpless have?

Edited by Hugo Stiglitz
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Immortal is taking a 2 week vacation in case anyone is wondering.


So he’s not immortal?

I guess the summary feels like me reading The Firm and my book report stating it was about a butthurt junior lawyer stealing the internal records of a prestigious law firm to personally enrich himself and live off the grid on the beach. Just let us read the thing ourselves and come to our own conclusions.
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11 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

That's why I thought it was really weird.  I just don't see Maddow or Lieu as emblematic of the problem.

I don't know what you mean by "the" problem, but they're A problem.

3 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Yeah, nothing on real issues gets done until the corruption problem is tackled first. 

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

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14 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

If Mueller thought it was important, I don't think he would have wrapped up the investigation.  (This assumes he had full authority to continue the investigation if he felt it was warranted.)

The entire investigation revolved around squeezing people for information and charging them with unrelated crimes in order to get them to cooperate.   Flynn, Cohen and conspiracy nutjob Roger Stone were part of a fishing expedition. 

This thread is filled with regurgitated "facts" from clickbait articles. Meanwhile, MSNBC and CNN went full on Infowars and no one seemed to notice.

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1 minute ago, udaydanceparty said:

The entire investigation revolved around squeezing people for information and charging them with unrelated crimes in order to get them to cooperate.   Flynn, Cohen and conspiracy nutjob Roger Stone were part of a fishing expedition. 

This thread is filled with regurgitated "facts" from clickbait articles. MSNBC and CNN went full on Infowars.

We won't know what the investigation found out until we read the report. 

All we have now is a press release.

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25 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It would be really cool if people like Maddow and Twitter Congressmorons like Ted Lieu would start focusing on real issues that impact real Americans now.

Do some reporting on child care needs. Do some reporting on the uninsured. Do some reporting on the horrible lives of both the people hounded by debt collectors and the debt collectors themselves. Do something useful for once.

I get where you're coming from but I think the #1 problem we're facing right now is the absurdly rampant corruption at every level of government. Didn't Warren recently say somewhere that her first priority if elected would be addressing corruption? I think that's the right way to prioritize because without addressing corruption there's no hope of addressing any of the other problems. A government that isn't actually of the people (which a government of the billionaire grifters class isn't) will never be for the people. I actually don't think the Democrats (as distinct from the center-left media) have really talked up the GOP's corruption nearly enough. The Mueller investigation was probably not the right vehicle for that charge because it was always relatively narrow in focus, but they should be hammering Trump and the entire GOP on all the extremely obvious corruption that is completely separate from the Mueller investigation. 

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13 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

I'm guessing this is going nowhere since the Mueller team has ended, no?

[SCOTUS declining to take up Mystery Appellant appeal to thwart Mueller subpoena.]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

If Mueller thought it was important, I don't think he would have wrapped up the investigation.  (This assumes he had full authority to continue the investigation if he felt it was warranted.)

It's really not sinking in how much what Mueller was investigating is not finished.  Core issues around Trump/Russia are still being drawn out in ongoing investigations, particularly the financial ones.  NRA, Inauguration fund, Trump Org overlap.  This is the story that MSM is missing.  

 

 

Given there was "no indictment" ??  It's DOJ policy to not indict a sitting POTUS, not the SC, not the AG.  It's for Congress to assess.  That is what Mueller intended to happen. 

Congress has to go to the mat over having access to the full contents of the Mueller report.

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

We won't know what the investigation found out until we read the report. 

All we have now is a press release.

Do you really think that if Barr was making shit up that Mueller or anyone on his team wouldn't be leaking like a sieve right now?

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Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Do you really think that if Barr was making shit up that Mueller or anyone on his team wouldn't be leaking like a sieve right now?

I think it behooves the administration to release the full report and all of the evidence as soon as possible. The longer they wait, the worse it looks.

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Not sure if this has been shared concerning Barr’s letter and his obstruction finding.  It appears the lawfare folks indicate Mueller’s report may have all the obstruction evidence laid out for Congress to weigh rather than for Barr.  Barr’s obstruction conclusion potentially may have been based heavily on Barr’s belief that Article II authorities (such as firing comey or request to drop Flynn’s investigation) can never be considered obstruction. 

“It also makes clear that the Mueller report creates an extensive record on the obstruction question. And that may well be the point. After all, what is the point of a prosecutor’s amassing a factual record and then refusing, as Mueller apparently has refused, to evaluate it in a traditional prosecutorial framework? The answer the letter suggests but does not state is that the Mueller report has teed up the question of presidential obstruction for evaluation by a different actor—to wit, by Congress—on a decidedly noncriminal basis. Mueller, being barred from indicting the president, has done the investigation, has apparently declined even to evaluate the matter as a prosecutor, and has laid out all of the facts and the arguments for and against treating the president’s behavior as criminal. It is now for other actors to decide whether the conduct Mueller describes is acceptable in a president.””

“While Mueller left the question of criminality unaddressed, Barr himself did not. Barr opines that Mueller’s “decision to describe the facts of his obstruction inquiry without reaching any legal conclusions leaves it to the Attorney General to determine whether the conduct described in the report constitutes a crime”—though it is not clear why Barr felt this to be the case. Barr includes his own determination, along with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein’s, that Mueller’s evidence “is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense.””

 

“Though Barr does not make reference to any concerns over the interaction between presidential authority and possible obstruction offenses, it is worth keeping in mind his memorandum on the subject from June 2018, in which he argued that conduct authorized by Article II definitionally cannot constitute obstruction.”

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-make-bill-barrs-letter

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Trump won’t resign. Trump won’t be impeached. He’ll finish his term. We all know his team helped/encouraged Russia even it wasn’t actively coordinating. But he and probably his sons and Kushner will eventually be taken down for illegal business practices of some sort after the Trump presidency. Trump is a crook and has been for years. Now every aspect of his business is being looked into. He’ll eventually be fucked.

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2 minutes ago, triplehorn said:

It's really not sinking in how much what Mueller was investigating is not finished.  Core issues around Trump/Russia are still being drawn out in ongoing investigations, particularly the financial ones.  NRA, Inauguration fund, Trump Org overlap.  This is the story that MSM is missing.  

Mueller is done, save whatever further cooperation Barr asks for (and he indicated that he would do so).

It was Mueller's subpoena -- I'm not saying this company doesn't have to comply now that SCOTUS rejected their appeal, but you'd have to show evidence that Mueller farmed that particular aspect of the case out for me to believe there is anything important at play.  It's just a hunch, though.

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26 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

 

Have you met old people?

Yes, and as we all know old people are frequently convinced to change their minds.  A lot of old people I know frequently change ends of the political spectrum based on things they read on Facebook. 

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4 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Do you really think that if Barr was making shit up that Mueller or anyone on his team wouldn't be leaking like a sieve right now?

I have absolutely no reason to believe Mueller would leak anything.  No summation of his character, save POTUS' rants about him being an angry Democrat, have indicated that Mueller is anything but a strict by the book kind of guy.

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2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I think it behooves the administration to release the full report and all of the evidence as soon as possible. The longer they wait, the worse it looks.

I disagree. They know every "assumption" will be turned into political fodder.

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

 

I would love a Surly Law Dog's thoughts on this. 

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17 minutes ago, Homercles said:

 Just let us read the thing ourselves and come to our own conclusions.

 

I doubt if even 20% of the public would read the full report even if it was available. And half of those would have to be told what it said. For the vast majority of the pubic, conclusions have already been reached.

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Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

I disagree. They know every "assumption" will be turned into political fodder.

"When did you stop beating your wife?"

I would love a Surly Law Dog's thoughts on this. 

That implies that they won't release it because of politics.

That's not a good look. Hell, yesterday's "win" is already wearing off. 

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2 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Mueller is done, save whatever further cooperation Barr asks for (and he indicated that he would do so).

It was Mueller's subpoena -- I'm not saying this company doesn't have to comply now that SCOTUS rejected their appeal, but you'd have to show evidence that Mueller farmed that particular aspect of the case out for me to believe there is anything important at play.  It's just a hunch, though.

You think they took this subpoena issue to the Supreme Court because there might not be “anything important at play?”

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5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We won't know what the investigation found out until we read the report. 

All we have now is a press release.

Yes but the report probably doesn't materially differ from the summary provided.  Suggesting that at this point is bonkers.

Do you not see how this is 9-11 truther shit at this point?  No matter how much information is released, there are going to be people that will find another direction to take this nonsense. 

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8 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I get where you're coming from but I think the #1 problem we're facing right now is the absurdly rampant corruption at every level of government. Didn't Warren recently say somewhere that her first priority if elected would be addressing corruption? I think that's the right way to prioritize because without addressing corruption there's no hope of addressing any of the other problems. A government that isn't actually of the people (which a government of the billionaire grifters class isn't) will never be for the people. I actually don't think the Democrats (as distinct from the center-left media) have really talked up the GOP's corruption nearly enough. The Mueller investigation was probably not the right vehicle for that charge because it was always relatively narrow in focus, but they should be hammering Trump and the entire GOP on all the extremely obvious corruption that is completely separate from the Mueller investigation

The problem with the bold portion is that they would have to hammer themselves as well regarding corruption.  It's rampant on both sides of the aisle.  Palms greased to get and stay elected, a true, entrenched ruling class that is completely antithetical to a true republic.  Hammering one side while sweeping shit like Wasserman-Schulz under the rug is a vapid attempt at attacking the Stage 4 cancer that is our congress 

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I genuinely wonder how many minds were changed? How many people do you think changed their vote from Hilary to Trump based on any “propaganda” from the Russians?? Do you think they even made a dent?

People are very stupid and believe everything they read on Facebook. So yes, it could have had an affect. We’ll really never know how much but with an election so close, it could have made a difference.
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7 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Not sure if this has been shared concerning Barr’s letter and his obstruction finding.  It appears the lawfare folks indicate Mueller’s report may have all the obstruction evidence laid out for Congress to weigh rather than for Barr.  Barr’s obstruction conclusion potentially may have been based heavily on Barr’s belief that Article II authorities (such as firing comey or request to drop Flynn’s investigation) can never be considered obstruction. 

“It also makes clear that the Mueller report creates an extensive record on the obstruction question. And that may well be the point. After all, what is the point of a prosecutor’s amassing a factual record and then refusing, as Mueller apparently has refused, to evaluate it in a traditional prosecutorial framework? The answer the letter suggests but does not state is that the Mueller report has teed up the question of presidential obstruction for evaluation by a different actor—to wit, by Congress—on a decidedly noncriminal basis. Mueller, being barred from indicting the president, has done the investigation, has apparently declined even to evaluate the matter as a prosecutor, and has laid out all of the facts and the arguments for and against treating the president’s behavior as criminal. It is now for other actors to decide whether the conduct Mueller describes is acceptable in a president.””

“While Mueller left the question of criminality unaddressed, Barr himself did not. Barr opines that Mueller’s “decision to describe the facts of his obstruction inquiry without reaching any legal conclusions leaves it to the Attorney General to determine whether the conduct described in the report constitutes a crime”—though it is not clear why Barr felt this to be the case. Barr includes his own determination, along with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein’s, that Mueller’s evidence “is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense.””

 

“Though Barr does not make reference to any concerns over the interaction between presidential authority and possible obstruction offenses, it is worth keeping in mind his memorandum on the subject from June 2018, in which he argued that conduct authorized by Article II definitionally cannot constitute obstruction.”

https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-make-bill-barrs-letter

This is what the French call saisir à la paille.

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

That implies that they won't release it because of politics.

That's not a good look. Hell, yesterday's "win" is already wearing off. 

Or, just maybe, it's because of the law?

Barr is bound by federal laws that limit how certain material from federal investigations can be shared. In particular, one section of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure — known in legal circles by its number, 6e — prohibits, with few exceptions, the public release of information obtained through grand jury testimony. The rule is intended to keep information classified in federal criminal investigations, and protect the privacy of an individual or entity that has not been charged with a crime.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/could-congress-force-the-mueller-report-to-be-made-public

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1 minute ago, udaydanceparty said:

Yes but the report probably doesn't materially differ from the summary provided.  Suggesting that at this point is bonkers.

Do you not see how this is 9-11 truther shit at this point?  No matter how much information is released, there are going to be people that will find another direction to take this nonsense. 

If that's the case, there is no reason not to release it.

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2 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

You think they took this subpoena issue to the Supreme Court because there might not be “anything important at play?”

The company took it to SCOTUS.  I think it's reasonable to imagine that Mueller figured it wasn't going to change his conclusions . . . or, that part of the case has been farmed out and it doesn't matter.

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I'm confused by some of the reaction to this on the right.  The FBI cleared Hillary,  countless Benghazi and other investigations turned up no actionable criminal evidence against her, and Republicans still consider her a major criminal who should be locked up.   But Trump is completely innocent because of a 2-page summary by his political appointee of a document that, at minimum, came up with evidence of criminal obstruction, and who knows what else on collusion that simply wasn't enough for a charge?  Please. 

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Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

Or, just maybe, it's because of the law?

Barr is bound by federal laws that limit how certain material from federal investigations can be shared. In particular, one section of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure — known in legal circles by its number, 6e — prohibits, with few exceptions, the public release of information obtained through grand jury testimony. The rule is intended to keep information classified in federal criminal investigations, and protect the privacy of an individual or entity that has not been charged with a crime.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/could-congress-force-the-mueller-report-to-be-made-public

That only applies to grand jury testimony. 

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2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

Or, just maybe, it's because of the law?

Barr is bound by federal laws that limit how certain material from federal investigations can be shared. In particular, one section of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure — known in legal circles by its number, 6e — prohibits, with few exceptions, the public release of information obtained through grand jury testimony. The rule is intended to keep information classified in federal criminal investigations, and protect the privacy of an individual or entity that has not been charged with a crime.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/could-congress-force-the-mueller-report-to-be-made-public

It needs to be released in full to Congress.  What gets released to the public is less of a concern for me.

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3 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

I'm confused by some of the reaction to this on the right.  The FBI cleared Hillary,  countless Benghazi and other investigations turned up no actionable criminal evidence against her, and Republicans still consider her a major criminal who should be locked up.   But Trump is completely innocent because of a 2-page summary by his political appointee of a document that, at minimum, came up with evidence of criminal obstruction, and who knows what else on collusion that simply wasn't enough for a charge?  Please. 

The cases are very similar IMNSHO. Both cases have now come down to Washington Insiders deciding not to prosecute despite the evidence. 

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Just now, udaydanceparty said:

Yes but the report probably doesn't materially differ from the summary provided.  Suggesting that at this point is bonkers.

Do you not see how this is 9-11 truther shit at this point?  No matter how much information is released, there are going to be people that will find another direction to take this nonsense. 

huh?  Mueller investigation ≠ 9-11 truther shit.  Mueller's report is the conclusion of a fact finding investigation that had a limited scope.  He gave the facts of his investigation and left it up to the AG/Congress to decide whether to levy any indictments on Trump.  Information has been released but only to the AG to where he gave his view of the report.  As a fan of the legal system, I really hope they release the report and look forward to reading/analyzing it for my own understanding.

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

If that's the case, there is no reason not to release it.

Congress will get to see it for sure.  Not sure how much of it should be made 100% open to the public.   There is a certain level of privacy that the accused deserve, even if they hold public office.

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2 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

You might as well release the whole thing. Congress leaks like the SS Minnow. 

I may be wrong, but I don't recall major leaks out of the Judiciary Committees.  For one thing, leaking classified information would be really stupid.

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11 minutes ago, Cacti said:

I doubt if even 20% of the public would read the full report even if it was available. And half of those would have to be told what it said. For the vast majority of the pubic, conclusions have already been reached.

This is correct and why nothing will come of this.  The general public was barely aware of the scope of any of it to begin with and now they got a media soundbite that says "he's innocent!" in layman's terms and that's all they need.  They'll go back to their lives and probably won't vote anyway.  Fuck this country.

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2 minutes ago, udaydanceparty said:

Congress will get to see it for sure.  Not sure how much of it should be made 100% open to the public.   There is a certain level of privacy that the accused deserve, even if they hold public office.

Nope, you're investigated, and it's all public record at that point.  Might suck, but them's the breaks.

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2 minutes ago, CowboyFred said:

huh?  Mueller investigation ≠ 9-11 truther shit.  Mueller's report is the conclusion of a fact finding investigation that had a limited scope.  He gave the facts of his investigation and left it up to the AG/Congress to decide whether to levy any indictments on Trump.  Information has been released but only to the AG to where he gave his view of the report.  As a fan of the legal system, I really hope they release the report and look forward to reading/analyzing it for my own understanding.

The people that are still peddling "the president colluded with Russia to win the election" are tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists at this point.  If you are holding out hope that there is something in that report that shows something radically different than what the AG announced, you are delusional.  The chances that there is something materially different than what the AG said are about zero. 

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Just now, udaydanceparty said:

The people that are still peddling "the president colluded with Russia to win the election" are tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists at this point.  If you are holding out hope that there is something in that report that shows something radically different than what the AG announced, you are delusional.  The chances that there is something materially different than what the AG said are about zero. 

THIS, His private business dealings on the other hand.........

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6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Mueller is done, save whatever further cooperation Barr asks for (and he indicated that he would do so).

It was Mueller's subpoena -- I'm not saying this company doesn't have to comply now that SCOTUS rejected their appeal, but you'd have to show evidence that Mueller farmed that particular aspect of the case out for me to believe there is anything important at play.  It's just a hunch, though.

I don't follow.  Are you suggesting that the Mystery Appellant is off the hook regardless of SCOTUS not taking their appeal - because Mueller is "done" ?  

The Mystery Appellant will now have to turn over to federal prosecutors info that was related to Mueller's probe.  Lower courts' decision stands while they comply or continue accruing a $50K fine per day.

And again, look, Trump can be named as an un-indicted co-conspirator by any of the prosecutors at SDNY, EDNY, EDVA, DC US Atty, etc.  --> and he already HAS been > Individual 1 in Cohen's SDNY guilty plea.  Trump and family still have a ton of exposure in these advanced investigations.

 

Where we stand No Mueller report out, and over a dozen other investigations ongoing that overlap with Mueller's work.  Barr snuck up on Mueller like a hippo hunting a hummingbird.  From his private letter and senate confirmation hearings, the world knew Barr was a mercenary who advertised toTrump his for the job.  It's foolhardy to think Mueller simply got duped by the AG's 4 page whitewash.  He didn't.  Mueller was a defined target for Trump to attack and possibly fire.  He was also an individual who Barr was positioned to try to wall off.  None of these apply to the relatively anonymous army of DOJ in multiple jurisdictions who continue to advance.

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3 minutes ago, udaydanceparty said:

The people that are still peddling "the president colluded with Russia to win the election" are tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists at this point.  If you are holding out hope that there is something in that report that shows something radically different than what the AG announced, you are delusional.  The chances that there is something materially different than what the AG said are about zero. 

Not holding out hope on there being something "radically different".  The reason I don't consider this investigation in the same light of the 9/11 investigation is that there were criminal indictments as a result of this investigation.  I'm more interested in knowing the facts of the case and what was discovered in the course of the investigation.  It actually lets me breathe a sigh of relief that our president was not colluding or that there was not sufficient evidence to determine that.  

And that would have been my reaction no matter who is the Commander in Chief whether its Hillary, Obama or even Jesus Christ himself.  i may not agree with the policies or even voted for whoever is in office but I always try my best to respect the office.  This motherfucker makes it really hard to do that at this time.

 

6 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

THIS, His private business dealings on the other hand.........

Now this is something I can't wait to be brought to light.

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