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Posted
14 hours ago, MissingInAction said:

Women are catty and jealous of each other?

The Wire Wow GIF

Pages of argument and this is all it is. It’s like y’all have never been around groups of women

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Posted
11 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

Pages of argument and this is all it is. It’s like y’all have never been around groups of women

Not as if a group of men would freeze someone out on the court or say,  block another player from being included on an Olympic team.

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Posted

WRT relevance to their respective leagues, it would have been Jordan, not Zeke who was left off the Dream Team; if you're going there with the WNBA.

Posted
24 minutes ago, Iceman said:

WRT relevance to their respective leagues, it would have been Jordan, not Zeke who was left off the Dream Team; if you're going there with the WNBA.

Not the point,  the idea that only women are petty when there are multiple examples of feuds and pettiness in the NBA.  

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Posted
On 7/3/2025 at 9:50 PM, SarkAfterDark said:

Imagine not knowing one of the lead guards on a team that won a championship back to back recently and almost 3peated and is still one of the better guards in the league today and then think people should give a shit about your opinion on the matter. I guess you Clark stans assume everyone is as ignorant in regards to the WNBA as most of you are. So far the only argument in this discourse has been they should have voted her first, well because she is CC. She has missed half the season and believe it or not there are players that have been better than her this season. 

God I hate having to agree with Derka, but that was literally his fucking point.

The casual fan doesn't know most players. Clark. Reese obviously.  Maybe Paige cause she's been talked about for years.  Possibly Sabrina, and of course A'ja...maybe a small group know Breanna and Griner That's about it for current players.

On 7/4/2025 at 12:00 AM, Vegas64 said:

I get what you are saying, but I actually think you are making the opposite point by saying it.

WNBA was a flailing league. If it wasn't outright dying, it sure wasn't growing with any alacrity that would anyone would confuse with health. If you cop to being a WNBA fan pre-CC, that is cool, but it's rare. And it stands to reason that the reason the league was failing (cue Bill Burr for the 11th time) is that it had no broad support from any sufficiently large demographic.

So the fact that the (massive) growth drivers are new fans who don't really know a lot of the players who were drowning in a sinking league isn't the flex you think it is. That said, there are a few names that casual fans shold have heard of and I think Kelsie Plum is one of them. You should have a passing awareness that she is a person and a component of the league just as I know there is a fat rapper named LIzzo and Gorilla the red, even though I have never and will never listen to woman rap. Just by virtue of being alive.

Exactly.

On 7/4/2025 at 10:47 AM, Blotto said:

Fucking laughable. My guess is if you stop 10 people randomly on the street and ask them how Kelsey Plum makes a living, 1 might be able to tell you she's plays in the wnba. If you ask details like what team she plays for and what position, you might have to ask 25+ before someone knows. Unless you're at a  Subaru owners convention, Plum is as relevant nationally as someone like Sergino Dest. Solid player but moves zero needles.

Pretty much.

Posted
23 hours ago, Im_smarter_then_you said:

That scoring record should still be Plums.   It took Caitlin 9 seasons to break it

I know you were jagging but, I decided to go ahead and take a look at their stats while in college.

Both are wonderful players.

Both played 139 collegiate games.

Clark averaged 28.4 ppg while Plum averaged 25.4 ppg.

Plum played more minutes per game, 37.4 to 34.8 which, if you just divide the total by 40 minutes, works out to basically nine more games than Clark played.

Clark averaged more rebounds per game, 7.1 to 4.3 and assists per game, 8.2 to 3.8.

Clark shot better from the floor, 46.2% to 44.3%. Plum did shoot better from 3, 38.2% to 37.7%.

Clark scored 3,951 points to Plum's 3,527. 

Blew her right out of the water.

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Posted
2 hours ago, PGFrog said:

Not the point,  the idea that only women are petty when there are multiple examples of feuds and pettiness in the NBA.  

Who said “only women?” 

Posted
8 hours ago, Drew said:

God I hate having to agree with Derka, but that was literally his fucking point.

The casual fan doesn't know most players. Clark. Reese obviously.  Maybe Paige cause she's been talked about for years.  Possibly Sabrina, and of course A'ja...maybe a small group know Breanna and Griner That's about it for current players.

Exactly.

Pretty much.

The casual fan ≠ Caitlyn Clark stans that refuse to become casual fans because CC isn’t being treated as a holy grail. 

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SarkAfterDark said:

The casual fan ≠ Caitlyn Clark stans that refuse to become casual fans because CC isn’t being treated as a holy grail. 

The numbers and everything quite literally say she’s the holy grail. For fucks sake viewership of the league as a whole sunk 50% while she was out. Are you truly this fucking dumb. 
 

that also doesn’t include all star voting being 5x higher because of the viewership brought to the league by her. 
 

 

Edited by BurntOrange&White
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Posted
On 7/5/2025 at 9:27 PM, SarkAfterDark said:

The casual fan ≠ Caitlyn Clark stans that refuse to become casual fans because CC isn’t being treated as a holy grail. 

Jesus this is such a stupid and disingenuous take.  

Casual Fans ARE casual fans.  That simple.

13 hours ago, Im_smarter_then_you said:

Her passes are too crisp and quick for her brick handed teammates.  And also, defense play her differently

Nah she just  makes passes that she probably shouldn't at times, because she's the only one in that league that could attempt them.

Same reason Luka and Lebron have high turnover stats...they attempt crazy passes.

Posted
On 7/7/2025 at 12:15 PM, Drew said:

Jesus this is such a stupid and disingenuous take.  

Casual Fans ARE casual fans.  That simple.

Casual fans would know/realize there are other teams/players worth watching other than Fever/Clark. There are multiple posters in this thread that refuse to watch unless it’s Clark and she is getting treated like a princess. So get the fuck outta here with your shit. They aren’t casual fans.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, SarkAfterDark said:

it’s Clark and she is getting treated like a princess.

yeah fans like her. why you mad? imagine nba fans being seething mad that non-nba fans said they don’t watch basketball but they’ll tune in to watch steph curry. 

Edited by Derka
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Posted
2 hours ago, Derka said:

yeah fans like her. why you mad? imagine nba fans being seething mad that non-nba fans said they don’t watch basketball but they’ll tune in to watch steph curry. 

You have a short memory— curry was polarizing early on and had a ton of haters. 

Posted (edited)

LOL.  Steph Curry was a legacy NBA player whose slight build lead to bigtime questions about durability and physical toughness; but was well thought of as an offensive threat by anyone paying attention.  He answered the concerns in the most dramatic and convincing of fashions.  The NBA officials and players didn't go out of their way to shun and beat the living fuck out of him either.  The league damned sure didn't let the Pistons and Knicks, among others;  beat the living fuck out of him.  Jordan is a far better example of someone who got fucking physically obliterated early on. Even then, he wasn't treated like Clark has been in the WNBA.

Hell Jordan even made the '84 Olympic team.

Edited by Iceman
Posted
2 minutes ago, Iceman said:

The NBA officials and players didn't go out of their way to shun and beat the living fuck out of him either.  The league damned sure didn't let the Pistons and Knicks, among others;  beat the living fuck out of him.

This is fucking hysterical. How many NBA games do you watch every year? 4? 

I need @aggie08 to see this. 

Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ztejas said:

This is fucking hysterical. How many NBA games do you watch every year? 4? 

I need @aggie08 to see this. 

We've had this discussion before.  The league ain't like it was in the 80's/ 90's, no matter how much you fantasize about its current state.

Remember someone listing Bill Laimbeer as an example of the Pistons defense, when he, at BEST,  was the 4th best defender?

Edited by Iceman
Posted
32 minutes ago, Iceman said:

We've had this discussion before.  The league ain't like it was in the 80's/ 90's, no matter how much you fantasize about its current state.

Remember someone listing Bill Laimbeer as an example of the Pistons defense, when he, at BEST,  was the 4th best defender?

You don't understand the "current state" of the NBA because you don't watch the games. 

I know twice as much about every era of the NBA and how they relate to each other as you do. And that's being generous. You casually watched the NBA for like 15 years growing up and think you know as much as someone who is obsessive about the sport. 

Curry has been getting targeted and getting his ass kicked his entire career. He has not gotten protected by officials. That is part of why he is one of the 10 greatest players to ever pick the ball up. 

Shut the fuck up, Slorch. 

Posted
6 hours ago, ztejas said:

You don't understand the "current state" of the NBA because you don't watch the games. 

I know twice as much about every era of the NBA and how they relate to each other as you do. And that's being generous. You casually watched the NBA for like 15 years growing up and think you know as much as someone who is obsessive about the sport. 

Curry has been getting targeted and getting his ass kicked his entire career. He has not gotten protected by officials. That is part of why he is one of the 10 greatest players to ever pick the ball up. 

Shut the fuck up, Slorch. 

I think difference in how it happens to Curry is based on how it would happen to any smaller sized/frame player not on him specifically. 
 

KD just was on a pod talking about how smaller players wouldn’t make it in today’s NBA as they’d get hunted due to defensive liabilities and on offense other team’s length would make shot creation hard. Curry is obviously exception to this but again the play style he deals with are due to genetics not politics. 
 

The way Clark is targeted and fouled feels much more personally motivated than what I have ever seen Curry go through. 
 

 

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Posted

No one gave Steph any grief when he first stepped into the league because he was just the fun, baby-faced skinny dude who could really shoot and who might make a few All-Star games. As soon as he started winning MVPs and a title, threatened the status quo, and took away other players' shine, that very much changed. Then, he was the rich, soft, light-skinned, ex-player's kid who never struggled a day in his life (laughable when discussing a 5'6" high school sophomore with serious NBA aspirations), who was attracting casual, predominantly white fans to the league. There was absolutely resentment from the cool kids club, namely LeBron and CP3. Klay caught some of it too for many of the same reasons. Steph didn't truly shake it until 2022.

Obviously, it's much more pronounced in CC's case, but expecting established players to just accept and embrace the outsider who's not "like them" because it makes the entire league more popular isn't a natural human reaction.

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Posted
19 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

No one gave Steph any grief when he first stepped into the league because he was just the fun, baby-faced skinny dude who could really shoot and who might make a few All-Star games. As soon as he started winning MVPs and a title, threatened the status quo, and took away other players' shine, that very much changed. Then, he was the rich, soft, light-skinned, ex-player's kid who never struggled a day in his life (laughable when discussing a 5'6" high school sophomore with serious NBA aspirations), who was attracting casual, predominantly white fans to the league. There was absolutely resentment from the cool kids club, namely LeBron and CP3. Klay caught some of it too for many of the same reasons. Steph didn't truly shake it until 2022.

Obviously, it's much more pronounced in CC's case, but expecting established players to just accept and embrace the outsider who's not "like them" because it makes the entire league more popular isn't a natural human reaction.

Exactamundo.

And Tiger Woods to PGA was a lot of the same.

I think CC gets it and she knows she is a trendsetter and pioneer and just has to get through the hard first seasons. I think history will look back at her as not only the GOAT but the mythical icon of the WNBA a la MJ to the NBA.

Posted
18 hours ago, Vegas64 said:

Exactamundo.

And Tiger Woods to PGA was a lot of the same.

I think CC gets it and she knows she is a trendsetter and pioneer and just has to get through the hard first seasons. I think history will look back at her as not only the GOAT but the mythical icon of the WNBA a la MJ to the NBA.

WHY CANT THESE MEAN PGA TOUR PROS EMBRACE TIGER, HE'S GROWING THEIR SPORT

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Yep, I think we have a dynamic and situation, which is kinda interesting (or strange/weird, depending on your view) where we have fans and people who are MORE protective and upset and disturbed by the "hazing" or whatever you'd characterize as a catch-all word for all the garbage she's having to deal with being put on her by her inferiors in the league, than even she (the actual person being put through the crap firsthand) is.

I think that actually points to her awesome character and mental fortitude and strength-- and it's likely the privilege of having a great support system, starting from her family and community probably when she was an amateur, which has been supplemented now with the best business and strategist minds money can buy from Nike, professional agents, media teams, etc.

Edited by Vegas64
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

Yep, I think we have a dynamic and situation, which is kinda interesting (or strange/weird, depending on your view) where we have fans and people who are MORE protective and upset and disturbed by the "hazing" or whatever you'd characterize as a catch-all word for all the garbage she's having to deal with being put on her by her inferiors in the league, than even she (the actual person being put through the crap firsthand) is.

I think that actually points to her awesome character and mental fortitude and strength-- and it's likely the privilege of having a great support system, starting from her family and community probably when she was an amateur, which has been supplemented now with the best business and strategist minds money can buy from Nike, professional agents, media teams, etc.

I love Clark and watching her play. She's just hindered with injury this year and her team isn't playing great right now. She hasn't had her "blowing away the Masters field by 12 shots" moment yet that makes her peers have to lay down and say yeah, that's a different type of player than we've ever seen.

Edited by Pam Cummings
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Pam Cummings said:

I love Clark and watching her play. She's just hindered with injury this year and her team isn't playing great right now. She certainly hasn't had her "blowing away the Masters field by 12 shots" moment yet that makes her peers have to lay down and say yeah, that's a different type of player than we've ever seen.

I think the big difference is that Tiger had to blow the field by 12 shots in order to have the amazing impact on the sport (e.g. growing the brand, growing the adverstising money, fan money, brands, merch, and ultimately purses). Caitlin Clark has done all that already without being 10x orders of magnitude better at basketball than the next woman. She's already brought the increased visibility, attention and money to the league and her peers.

A hobbled Clark on a mediocre team having a struggling season (if that's even true) is still orders of magnitude more valuable and popular than a peer not-named Clark who is having a better season.

Edited by Vegas64
Posted

After typing the above I think I get the conflict which comes from the word I used "value".

I think the reason the league is rejecting Clark (like the body rejects a transplanted organ needed to live) is because the implication that they are not valuable. A lot of ink has been spilled about how crappy WNBA was before Clark-- all the same business metrics on revenue and salaries and attendance and popularity in the gutter) and the implication and unsaid message I think they are hearing is:

"you women are not valuable",

"you, as an individual basketballer, are not valuable", and

"you, without Caitlin Clark, are not valuable".

And not to get too political or controversial, but it seems like it's an easy leap to go from that to,

"black, queer women are not valuable",

and "without a straight white hope, a queer black league is not valuable"

And when people feel devalued it's a core identity crisis and emotional and psychological issue that can be existential. So that helps explain to me why it feels irrational -- because when most people feel that deeply wounded, most aren't going to respond with logic and math.

I could be way off but just a thought that unlocked for me as I wrote the last post and that word "value" jumped out at me.

Posted
1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

I love Clark and watching her play. She's just hindered with injury this year and her team isn't playing great right now. She hasn't had her "blowing away the Masters field by 12 shots" moment yet that makes her peers have to lay down and say yeah, that's a different type of player than we've ever seen.

I thought setting the single season assist mark as a rookie PG was one of those moments

not to mention.......

r/wnba - Every Caitlin Clark record/milestone this season 🤯

 

in her rookie season.  She blew the doors off the WNBA and is already a top 5 player in the league based on her play in just one season

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Posted
55 minutes ago, Vegas64 said:

I think the big difference is that Tiger had to blow the field by 12 shots in order to have the amazing impact on the sport (e.g. growing the brand, growing the adverstising money, fan money, brands, merch, and ultimately purses). Caitlin Clark has done all that already without being 10x orders of magnitude better at basketball than the next woman. She's already brought the increased visibility, attention and money to the league and her peers.

A hobbled Clark on a mediocre team having a struggling season (if that's even true) is still orders of magnitude more valuable and popular than a peer not-named Clark who is having a better season.

Tiger was already a fan favorite when he won 3 USGA amatuer titles in a row and made mountains of putts in comeback fashion to do it. He still didn't have the respect of the other pros until he won the Masters in 1997 and was undeniably better than all of them.

 

Seriously, go watch those amatuer title wins. Otherworldly.

Just now, ChickenSandwich said:

I thought setting the single season assist mark as a rookie PG was one of those moments

not to mention.......

r/wnba - Every Caitlin Clark record/milestone this season 🤯

 

in her rookie season.  She blew the doors off the WNBA and is already a top 5 player in the league based on her play in just one season

She hasn't won shit. Win shit and the respect comes. That's how it works.

Posted

basketball is a team sport and she was drafted by the team that had earned that first pick with their play the season prior and still made the playoffs.

 

He 3 career triple doubles puts her THIRD all time in league history

Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

basketball is a team sport and she was drafted by the team that had earned that first pick with their play the season prior and still made the playoffs.

 

He 3 career triple doubles puts her THIRD all time in league history

Russell Westbrook averaged a triple double one year, so what?

 

If the rest of the league sucks so badly and she's that far above them she should have no problem winning multiple titles.

Edited by Pam Cummings
Posted
15 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

She doesn’t owe the rest of the league a thing. She is saving the business they built into a failure. 
 

Short of winning a title in season one she has done just about everything else. 

Who says she owes the league anything?

 

Charles Barkley says he didn't think Jordan was better than he was until he beat him in the Finals. Was he being disrespectful? Truth of the matter is that every high level pro athlete thinks they are the best. That's kind of how you get to that level.

 

 

 

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Posted
38 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

She doesn’t owe the rest of the league a thing. She is saving the business they built into a failure. 
 

Short of winning a title in season one she has done just about everything else. 

I’d leave if I were her

Posted

Me too...Pam Cummings is exactly the sort of fan that doesn't deserve Clark.

Let that league drift off to the abyss. Sure they have a bit of a bump, not solely, but a LOT to do with Clark...let them be relevant without her.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

Who says she owes the league anything?

 

Charles Barkley says he didn't think Jordan was better than he was until he beat him in the Finals. Was he being disrespectful? Truth of the matter is that every high level pro athlete thinks they are the best. That's kind of how you get to that level.

 

 

 

I mean, it's absurd in hindsight and probably absurd at the time for Barkely to think he's better than MJ (to your point about how professionals are hardwired).

However, there are players you can count on one hand who can have that Barkley level delusion in the WNBA. Anything beyond those 4 or 5 (including Angela Reese), and you are in the realm of a reality that is so DeLuLu, the sheer complexity of it makes MCU's multiverse phase look like a children's book story.

Edited by Vegas64
Posted
1 hour ago, Drew said:

Me too...Pam Cummings is exactly the sort of fan that doesn't deserve Clark.

Let that league drift off to the abyss. Sure they have a bit of a bump, not solely, but a LOT to do with Clark...let them be relevant without her.

You sure have a lot of fierce opinions for somebody who doesn't watch and doesn't care.

Posted
1 hour ago, Vegas64 said:

I mean, it's absurd in hindsight and probably absurd at the time for Barkely to think he's better than MJ (to your point about how professionals are hardwired).

However, there are players you can count on one hand who can have that Barkley level delusion in the WNBA. Anything beyond those 4 or 5 (including Angela Reese), and you are in the realm of a reality that is so DeLuLu, the sheer complexity of it makes MCU's multiverse phase look like a children's book story.

Y’all seriously need to watch more teams/players. The number is a bit higher than 4 or 5. I love watching CC play and I love her style of play, but so far she has not transcended the league or the sport with her talent. I think she’ll end up a top ten womens basketball player of all time but the jury is still out if she is a MJ/Kobe/LBJ/Steph type or a Barkley/Westbrook/Harden/CP3 type. All of which are great players, but not all of them winners. 

Posted (edited)

lol

19 Rookie Records 

17 Single Season records

in year one....the argument she isn't already transcendent in the league is just laughable

 

the gap will get worse as the league expands and further waters down the talent nation wide

Edited by ChickenSandwich
Posted

I know Paige has already broken the 200 points 50 ast mark, and will/have probably break a few more. Also Fudd, JuJu, Miles etc will be coming to the league soon as well. The WNBA is going to have a talent infusion in the years to come. 

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SarkAfterDark said:

Y’all seriously need to watch more teams/players. The number is a bit higher than 4 or 5. I love watching CC play and I love her style of play, but so far she has not transcended the league or the sport with her talent. I think she’ll end up a top ten womens basketball player of all time but the jury is still out if she is a MJ/Kobe/LBJ/Steph type or a Barkley/Westbrook/Harden/CP3 type. All of which are great players, but not all of them winners. 

I should have put a finer point on it and said “most important and biggest player ever” as I’m actually completely uninterested in the conversation around the technicals of woman’s basketball skills.

Like MJ, CC undeniably made her league a household name and legitimatized it for the mainstream which allowed the mainstream money to overflow the wnba’s hitherto meager coffers, allowing for a) current legacy players to get a huge pay raise and b) make the wnba a legitimate career aspiration for women thus swelling the pipeline of great young talent and nurturing the young girls who would historically focus on making partner at their Big4 firm after college because the wnba only offered a $70k median salary, no endorsements, and you had to live in Bulgaria in the summer to make a living.

Edited by Vegas64
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Wilt Chamberlain is the only applicable NBA comp to compare rookie record holders

Wilt averaged 37 points and 27 rebounds and won MVP his rookie year so no.

Edited by Pam Cummings
Posted
1 hour ago, Vegas64 said:

I should have put a finer point on it and said “most important and biggest player ever” as I’m actually completely uninterested in the conversation around the technicals of woman’s basketball skills.

Like MJ, CC undeniably made her league a household name and legitimatized it for the mainstream which allowed the mainstream money to overflow the wnba’s hitherto meager coffers, allowing for a) current legacy players to get a huge pay raise and b) make the wnba a legitimate career aspiration for women thus swelling the pipeline of great young talent and nurturing the young girls who would historically focus on making partner at their Big4 firm after college because the wnba only offered a $70k median salary, no endorsements, and you had to live in Bulgaria in the summer to make a living.

 

bird and magic saved the nba long before mj 

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