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I am the Spouse/SO of an Alcoholic (and other dysfunctions)


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Posted

At the inception of the prior thread I was a spouse and now ex-spouse.  The 3 C’s were a huge help in my escaping my hostage situation and my son and I are both doing great. 

PS: props to BS for his perspective on the situation from the other side of the equation. 

  • Like 1
Posted

Still here.  Still checking in regularly.  There's been some significant updates, but I haven't had time to post them.  Hopefully I'll be able set aside the time to post them soon.

Posted
14 hours ago, Call said:

The 3 C’s were a huge help in my escaping my hostage situation and my son and I are both doing great.

This, and the statement "Allow her the dignity of experiencing the consequences of her actions." have been bedrocks to my recovery and to my ability to begin to live my life again.

  • 1 year later...
Posted

So, checking in on this thread again.  Felt it was better here than on the divorce thread.

So, yesterday we had a meeting with our kids' teacher and the intervention specialists.  Backstory is my daughter was officially diagnosed with ADHD, and we put her on the appropriate meds, with some astounding results, but the meeting was to go over the plan to assist my daughter for the remainder of her time in grade school.

So, ex doesn't show up on time, no real surprise, and upon calling, she tells me she was going to be there soon, but was wrapped up in trying to take care of some other addict who'd apparently gone off the rails and was suicidal.  I had a weird reaction of being annoyed at her (continued) inability to meet schedules, anger that this other person (who was not a close friend, or so I'm told) apparently held more importance to her than her own flesh and blood did, and indifference/detachment due to this being really just a continuation of a long established state of affairs.  I know it seems a bit contradictory to have the indifference/detachment and the anger/annoyance coexisting, but it really did happen simultaneously.

She did show up 20 minutes into the meeting.  And was able to get caught up.  At the end, she made a point of letting everyone know that her taking care of the suicidal person was what she had to do as part of step 12 for her.  This was somewhat eye-rolling for me, as it came off entirely as bragging/showing off.  But it did get me to thinking.  I know that the 12 steps rarely occur in sequence, but I still think it's a bit unusual that she's going to step 12 this soon, and that no one, or at least no one I know in our mutual group of acquaintances, has received any kind of communication that would resemble step 9.

Frankly, I'm at a point where I quite honestly expect that I will never receive any attempts at amends.  I think it would sincerely surprise the hell out of me to do so.  Has anyone else received any attempt at step 9 from their ex?

  • Like 2
Posted

From the other side:

Helping out other alcoholics, in my opinion, should begin almost immediately. Small gradual steps though such as cleaning up or calling people. Being there as a helping hand for someone that is sick and suffering is not that hard or complicated, and it's not something that you graduate into. It keeps us sober.

In my own life experience, expectations and working out things in my own head of how they should be have been my dilemma. All expectations do is give someone else the control of my own feelings.

Respect, courtesy, punctuality are social norms that you should be treated to in your relationship with your Ex. If doing a 9th step can do more harm than good, then now may not be the right time. Or she could just be doing it all wrong. So what? Not your journey. Be a light and helping hand to the extent that it does not harm you or your daughter.

(slinks off to the other thread)

  • Like 2
Posted
3 hours ago, JohnnyRage said:

Helping out other alcoholics, in my opinion, should begin almost immediately. Small gradual steps though such as cleaning up or calling people. Being there as a helping hand for someone that is sick and suffering is not that hard or complicated, and it's not something that you graduate into. It keeps us sober.

Believe it or not, I'm all for this.  I really am.  What I was was annoyed/irked that this other person, even though they were possibly in more immediate danger, took more precedence that her daughter did.

3 hours ago, JohnnyRage said:

All expectations do is give someone else the control of my own feelings.

Definitely an area I struggle with.

3 hours ago, JohnnyRage said:

Be a light and helping hand to the extent that it does not harm you or your daughter.

If you're talking about being that to the ex, I can't do that any more.  I tried to be that for her for 8+ years.  And I'm afraid that well has run dry/been sucked dry/has been poisoned.  No longer my circus or my monkeys. I can now only be that for my daughter. 

 

34 minutes ago, troph said:

you have to be prepared to never receive it because well you may never get it and if you do that’s the place you need to be in order to be gracious (and detached) when you do.

This is the place I've partially gotten to.  I absolutely do not expect it. I don't know at this point if I could be gracious if amends were attempted.

Posted
9 hours ago, Buffsoldier said:

 

Frankly, I'm at a point where I quite honestly expect that I will never receive any attempts at amends.  I think it would sincerely surprise the hell out of me to do so.  Has anyone else received any attempt at step 9 from their ex?

I was just thinking about this the other day.  I know you and I went through this same shit at around the same time (I was stuckinmn over there) and we did a few private messages on the subject.

I wouldn't go holding your breath on that 9th step.  It ain't gonna happen and if it does it's not gonna be the full acceptance and apology you want.  

  • Like 1
Posted

Hey Buff- have you considered that your ex helped the other woman, not because she placed her needs above your daughter’s needs, but rather that she knew your daughter was in good hands?

  • Like 4
Posted

Now that's a damn good point of view. Not sure I can give her that kind of credit, but I do like that idea. I'll try to consider that angle going forward, at least as far as this incident goes. 

Posted

Good conversation.

Buff, if your wife is staying continuously sober then you might want to "accept" her continued and very annoying/awkward attempts to do the right thing as what we call a living amend, done over time. She may never ever specifically address this, because quite frankly it might never occur to her that this is what she's actually doing.

Also 9th step amends are for the alcoholic, not the person the amends are being made to.  It's so we alcoholics can live with our past transgressions and move forward confidently, feeling equal to those whom we used to feel less than.  It's called sweeping our side of the street, and quite frankly it doesn't matter if an amend is accepted by the person we had harmed.  My ex wife didn't accept my 9th step amends, and never will. And it's absolutely none of my business.

People behave how they are equipped to behave. I believe that 100%.

If she's actually living the 12 steps then it might behoove you to read the big book to gain her perspective.  Bill Wilson actually had a drunk whom he was trying to help commit suicide in his house.  Also there is a page that I believe can help anyone - alcoholic or Al Anon (that's you, buddy, whether you admit it or not) page 417.  It's in a story called "Acceptance is the answer".  Also you should read the chapter "to wives" just swap the roles.

In early sobriety, I probably would have been a lot more "omg she's gonna kill herself I have to help her." At some point, a sponsor realizes they are powerless over their sponsees and says things like "this too shall pass, you're considering a permanent solution to a temporary problem, sit on your fucking hands and pray the serenity prayer and hang tight, I have a family commitment that I need to take care of and then I'll be available to you."

Shit, if she's staying continuously sober that in and of itself is a miracle that is not to be discounted.  Alcoholics are sick people.

  • Like 2
Posted
Spoiler
2 hours ago, troph said:

That’s a flawed perspective - if your behavior fucked someone up you need to make amends for both sides of the street IMO. Doing it for yourself is well selfish. Yes you can’t control what someone does with it but it should be a gift to the wronged first not a release for the wrongdoer first.

 

The 9th Step, like all of the other steps, are to keep us sober - nothing else. We must come from an honest and spiritually guided place, and we are not allowed to cause harm. We ask how we can make the transgression whole. What the recipient does with it is theirs.

I've only dabbled in the 9th step, so ignore me.

 

  • Like 1
Posted

To update a bit and to show that reality sometimes is stranger than fiction.  After my daughter died in October 2016, I have gone on this "crusade" against all of the dysfunctionality in the eating disorder industry. And in one year, I have been able to work my way to the top, working behind the scenes, helping organize university and non-profit centers into a collaborative force and meeting politicians on a state and federal level.

In the meantime, The Sequel, Ex-Mrs. Lid the Second, has found sobriety [allegedly], has a good job in the HR department of a large corporation, remarried and now ... I am representing her and her new husband in a lawsuit.

I should never have married the Sequel to begin with.

Sometimes you just have to get out of the way of Fate, Karma, Destiny or Whatever Moves the Universe, keep your eyes and heart open and your path finds you.

Not much in the way of answers, but sometimes, it is what it is.

I hope you find peace and serenity Buff.

  • Like 5
Posted
6 hours ago, troph said:

That’s a flawed perspective - if your behavior fucked someone up you need to make amends for both sides of the street IMO. Doing it for yourself is well selfish. Yes you can’t control what someone does with it but it should be a gift to the wronged first not a release for the wrongdoer first.

 

That said not a chance I’d wait for or expect it. Do your business and move on. She’s deeply flawed and you probably are to and your relationship was probs even worse. No sense in staying in the relationship which is what this mind set does.

 

And I say this with more ex BS today that I don’t even care to discuss it’s so stupid and micro-harms to our kids. It’s just asinine.

 

You're both right.  From the AA perspective, you do what you can control, and that is make a sincere amend, and you completely abandon any notion of control over its reception.  We as alcoholics have severe problems with control, and to concern the amend with its reception sets up all kinds of excuses and negative emotions that can be disastrous for the young drunk.  So the idea that we can't control whether the recipient of the amend accepts it kind of overwhelms any idea that they may benefit from the apology or that it serves them any purpose.  So it's kind of a psych-out game for the stepper.

Posted

Twice nailed it, it has nothing at all to do with wishing the best for the other person, and everything to do with control and trying to play God.

Troph, ideally one would be able to make amends beneficial to the aggrieved party. My mom accepted my amends to her. So did my dad and the rest of my relatives. The IRS accepted my financial amends.

My BPD ex wife told me she would never forgive me and told me, at 7 years sober that she hoped I got drunk when I had the audacity to bring my girlfriend of 6 years to my son's high school graduation.

She's a crazy bitch, and it takes 2 to tango. We will never be able to reconcile what happened. She does not know how to forgive - it isn't in her nor her family's DNA. Her own mother who is 87 years old outlined in startling and disturbing detail her own resentments against high school classmates 60 years prior. So yeah, I made amends, and it's absolutely none of my business if she accepts them. I'm moving on. God wants me to live happy, joyous and free.

I treat her with respect but I'll be damned if I'm going to let her affect my serenity anymore. I'm incapable of living to her expectations so any attempt is futile and isn't fair to me. I came to this realization when she spent 2 hours on the phone raging at me because I would not acquiesce to her completely unreasonable and childish demands. That Tuesday several years ago was a liberating catharsis.

At the end of the day alcoholics measure progress, not perfection.

  • Like 2
Posted
Her own mother who is 87 years old outlined in startling and disturbing detail her own resentments against high school classmates 60 years prior.

 

How many times did she flunk?

 

Posted

Good dialogue, I really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Sorta reminds me of the platinum rule. If the golden rule is "treat others the way you wish yourself to be treated" then the platinum rule is "treat others the way they wish to be treated."

I'm gonna step away because you're right, this is the thread for the other side.

"If I have no expectations of people then I cannot help but be delighted." The corollary is "nobody has the power to make me feel a certain way." Those are actually Al Anon meditations, and as an ACOA I qualify for that program too.

Family disease, yo.

  • Like 1
Posted
26 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

Good dialogue, I really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Sorta reminds me of the platinum rule. If the golden rule is "treat others the way you wish yourself to be treated" then the platinum rule is "treat others the way they wish to be treated."

I'm gonna step away because you're right, this is the thread for the other side.

"If I have no expectations of people then I cannot help but be delighted." The corollary is "nobody has the power to make me feel a certain way." Those are actually Al Anon meditations, and as an ACOA I qualify for that program too.

Family disease, yo.

BearSchlong,

Before you go, would you care to address this quote from AA's book on the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions? This is on page 87...

"Above all, we should try to be absolutely sure that we are not delaying because we are afraid. For the readiness to take full consequences of our past acts, and to take responsibility for the well-being of others at the same time, is the very spirit of Step Nine."

This seems to contradict what you wrote a few posts above, that 9th Step amends are for the alcoholic, not for the person the amends are being made to. 

Posted (edited)

I lurk in the alcoholic thread because I want to gain perspective on how the mind of an addict works. I don't agree with everything in there, but I don't post there because I try to stay in my lane. And I do have an appreciation for the AA program. I've read the Big Book several times. 

I don't post about this, but I have an ex-wife who hasn't seen our 9- and 6-year old kids in 5 years because she can't get the needle out of her arm. So I appreciate this thread.

Troph, Buff and the rest of y'all, I just wanna say I'm hearing you loud and clear.

When you've already dealt with a shit ton of selfish, destructive behavior from an addict, the last thing you want to hear from them is "I messed up, but I don't care if you accept my amends because I'm doing this for me." To the person who has been offended, it really just sounds like more of the same selfish behavior.

Saying you're sorry when you have wronged someone - and actually meaning it - that's just part of not being a shitty person. That's why most of us teach our kids from an early age to apologize when they hurt someone. It's just the right thing to do, regardless of the steps. If you're apologizing to make yourself feel better and give yourself confidence that you're lacking, that seems like the wrong reason. Those might be benefits, but they shouldn't be the reason you do it.

Edited by Foggy Notion
  • Like 6
Posted (edited)

It’s not an apology though. In fact many of us are instructed that we can’t use the phrase “I’m sorry.”

 There just seems to be a misunderstanding of what the ninth step is in the program of alcoholics anonymous.  No one meant to insinuate that the recipients feelings are irrelevant, just that they are outside of our control and that we shouldn’t make an amends if we are going to cause undue harm or harmful emotions.

Maybe  instead of saying “to keep us sober...”, I should have said to literally keep us from killing ourselves. It’s about being honest and identifying a relationship where we selfishly caused harm. We offer to do whatever it takes to make that situation right. That rectifing action is completely up to the recipient. We do whatever the person asks of us and strive to never do that selfishness to anyone again.

I didn’t mean to upset your thread. I’ll stay away. Have a great day.

Edited by JohnnyRage
  • Like 1
Posted
37 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

It’s not an apology though. In fact many of us are instructed that we can’t use the phrase “I’m sorry.”

 There just seems to be a misunderstanding of what the ninth step is in the program of alcoholics anonymous.  No one meant to insinuate that the recipients feelings are irrelevant, just that they are outside of our control and that we shouldn’t make an amends if we are going to cause undue harm or harmful emotions.

Maybe  instead of saying “to keep us sober...”, I should have said to literally keep us from killing ourselves. It’s about being honest and identifying a relationship where we selfishly caused harm. We offer to do whatever it takes to make that situation right. That rectifing action is completely up to the recipient. We do whatever the person asks of us and strive to never do that selfishness to anyone again.

I didn’t mean to upset your thread. I’ll stay away. Have a great day.

I might be wrong, but I dont think I'm misunderstanding the 9th Step. Go back and read my posts. I never said that making amends and saying "I'm sorry" are the same thing.

I'm saying that in some cases, saying you're sorry is "whatever it takes to make the situation right", which is the point of the 9th step as you yourself pointed out. In other situations like making financial amends, an apology might not be necessary because it is worthless. 

And you might not think that making an apology is a part of the 9th step. But it certainly is part of the 11th step. Bill W. himself says so in the Big Book. This is from the chapter Into Action. I'm sure you're familiar with it.

"When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid? Do we owe an apology?"

It's ok to apologize. It's ok to say you're sorry.

And in this case, it's ok to admit that you're wrong. It really is. I'm wrong sometimes too. When I am, I'd like to think that I admit it.

Posted
14 hours ago, BearSchlong said:



I treat her with respect but I'll be damned if I'm going to let her affect my serenity anymore. I'm incapable of living to her expectations so any attempt is futile and isn't fair to me. I came to this realization when she spent 2 hours on the phone raging at me because I would not acquiesce to her completely unreasonable and childish demands. That Tuesday several years ago was a liberating catharsis.

 

If I recall this led to a post where you called your ex a succubus.  Not to stalk you, but that really stuck with me because I thought hey that's just like my (then) wife.

To put my spin on the by now well-worn 9th step conversation here- i think the problem the alanon folks here are having is that some phrasing seems to imply that it's OK to think hey I threw out some amends if you don't like it that it's your problem (I know that's not the intent but it's how some are taking it).  As long as the amend was thoughtful and took ownership of past actions, I think that's true and if the recipient is unreasonable like the former Mrs. Bear then that's that.

Bad amends (in the "sober" spouse's eyes)- hey, you know some stuff happened and you know I'm clean now so let's let bygones be bygones.

Good amends- Man I put you threw hell, and getting high and sleeping with that guy on our co-ed softball team while you were out of town in Columbia, Missouri watching Texas play* was a really shitty thing to do of the many shitty things I did.  I'd like to apologize and make things right.

Like I said, I've accepted the fact that I'm not getting a 9th step and will not let that affect my life.  But if she came at me with the bad amend example above I'd laugh and walk out.

* yes, this hypothetical is oddly specific  

Posted
3 minutes ago, JohnnyRage said:

That’s the 10th step

No, it's not. Go back and read Into Action, Johnny.

Here's the larger quote this came from...

"Step Eleven suggests prayer and meditation. We shouldn't be shy on this matter of prayer. Better men than we are using it constantly. It works, if we have the proper attitude and work at it. It would be easy to be vague about this matter. Yet, we believe we can make some definite and valuable suggestions.

When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid? Do we owe an apology?"

Again, it's ok to admit when you're wrong. 

Posted (edited)

I’ll admit whatever you want me to admit, just point the lines out so I might do so. Also if you stop quoting me, I’ll stay out of this thread.

Just shoot me a pm.

Edited by JohnnyRage
Posted (edited)

Apologies to all for derailing this thread.

And a sincere apology to Johnny as well. I was in a rush to attack and I should have paused and thought about what he wrote before responding. 

I'll admit, I'm probably triggered right now due to recent events with my ex-wife. 

Edited by Foggy Notion
Posted (edited)

Make no mistake:  Amends are called for by the Ninth Step because they are the RIGHT THING TO DO! And that is as much for the recipient as for the alcoholic or offender (this doesn't just apply to the alcoholic).

But for the neophyte in recovery, a mind game often has to be played to avoid a descent into guilt and negativity.  in early recovery, the program is indeed a selfish one, but its purpose is to instill a system of living that focuses on doing the next right thing, and that, of course, benefits everyone.

And, yeah, just providing the perspective of "the other side."  For whatever it's worth.  If it's obnoxious, tell us and we'll STFU.

Edited by TwiceHorn
  • Like 2
Posted

Thanks for this thread. It took me many years of honestly believing I could make her 'better' before I began to understand the 3 Cs. Its a mantra that got often repeated. My guilt has subsided, still some regrets. Always hopeful, but realistic.

Posted

Yeah I was going to say that it is kind of like doing volunteer work, it's its own reward.  But that's not why you do it.  But the young drunk sometimes takes some convincing to do the things necessary to put down the rock.  It's hard to face up to some of the things you've done, and to people you care about.  It's not the only reason we drank, but played its part for sure.

Posted

Just a note -- I really don't have any dog in this fight.  Don't have any big drinkers or addicts in my immediate family (my grandma was a world-class drunk, but that was before my time).

I just wanted to note that I skimmed and read parts of this thread, and see a lot of folks who 1) have been through some shit, 2) have worked out some shit, 3) who are still working out some shit, and 4) are genuinely interested in helping other people work out their shit.  That's, well, some good shit.  It takes personal strength, resilience, and kindness.  As I've gotten older, I've come to think that kindness is perhaps the most important quality any of us can have and exhibit, so it does a soul right to see it being exercised.

I'm not here to pat anyone on the back, or speak from any high position.  I just wanted to tell you that even to a guy who isn't wrestling with the same demons (hey, my demons are different), it does us all good to actually see people working through their stuff and helping other folks do the same.  It's the way we're supposed to take up space in this world, and the example is a good one for all of us.

  • Like 3
Posted
12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah I was going to say that it is kind of like doing volunteer work, it's its own reward.  But that's not why you do it.  But the young drunk sometimes takes some convincing to do the things necessary to put down the rock.  It's hard to face up to some of the things you've done, and to people you care about.  It's not the only reason we drank, but played its part for sure.

The 9th also has a caveat and we're implored to do some soul searching before approaching the offended party. Cleaning up our side of the street shouldn't hurt anyone else but at the same time we owe them the opportunity to own their feelings and to accept them sharing those feeling with us, good or bad. It takes balance which is what we're trying to achieve. Sometimes we muff it.

  • Like 2
Posted

Some food for thought...

Can you guys even imagine how many times we alcoholics have said “I’m sorry”?

Infinity.

It’s a phrase that’s practically worthless, especially to the ones that deserve it the most. That’s why instead we make an amends.

Good talk Russ 😉 Love you guys.

Posted (edited)

You guys who are working a good, honest program in recovery, I sincerely commend you. Keep it up. I know that shit ain't easy.

Some of us are dealing with exes and SO's who aren't doing that. My ex wants me to believe she's sober, yet she ended up driving over a granite historical marker out near Llano a couple weeks ago while on a headful of Xanax and no telling what else. (But it was prescribed to her!!!!)

And she still doesn't get why I still think she's a danger to my kids.

Edited by Foggy Notion

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