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Hank Kingsley

The future of the Progressive Left

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8 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The minute it became a 2 person race, he got destroyed.

Joe beat Bernie basically 60-40, maybe 65-35. 

We could get into the semantics of what you mean by "destroyed", I guess, but I think it's purposefully hyperbolic attempt to demean the inroads and success of the progressive movement. For what reason? Who knows. Just general white class and race politics, I suppose.

Enjoy it, I guess.

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What if roughly 40% of voters in one political party were able to pick the nominee? Can you even imagine? That would be fucking insanity? 

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Progressives want a seat at the table.

The dirtbag left wants to burn the table to the ground.  

This is the nutshell version of what is going on with the Bernie left. 

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2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Progressives want a seat at the table.

The dirtbag left wants to burn the table to the ground.  

The Vichy Democrats weighing in.

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7 hours ago, Casual Encounter said:

For the record, I didn’t vote for Trump. I do think he’s done some good things

Can you tell me what good things you think he’s done? Honestly curious because I can’t think of one.

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3 hours ago, Hank Kingsley said:

The minute it became a 2 person race, he got destroyed. I don't think Bernie won a single county in Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, or Mississippi. And that's with Biden running a below average campaign and putting basically no resources in any of those states. 

biden also had no money, no grassroots organization, no fleet of volunteers, nobody on the phones, nobody knocking on doors, nobody co-hosting concert events with him.  i was told these were all very important.

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3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

For what reason? Who knows.

yeah, i'm not sure.

3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Just general white class and race politics, I suppose.

oh wait, it's definitely this.  everything anyone does or says is general white class and race politics.  i suppose.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Covri said:

Can you tell me what good things you think he’s done? Honestly curious because I can’t think of one.

He paid for Ivanka's fake tits. So that's 2 good things.

Edit: Oh and Melania's. So that's 4!

Edited by Jhawkmvp

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4 minutes ago, Jhawkmvp said:

He paid for Ivanka's fake tits. So that's 2 good things.

Edit: Oh and Melania's. So that's 4!

they were tax write-offs i'm sure.

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1 minute ago, henrygandorf said:

they were tax write-offs i'm sure.

all these big companies, they write off everything 

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48 minutes ago, Covri said:

Can you tell me what good things you think he’s done? Honestly curious because I can’t think of one.

Conversation for another thread and you wouldn’t agree anyway.

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59 minutes ago, Covri said:

Can you tell me what good things you think he’s done? Honestly curious because I can’t think of one.

He has got the entire Democrat Party to expose themselves as the frauds and wanna be dictators they actually are.  He has got the mainstream media to expose themselves as the the ass kissing, taint licking, gutless Democrat Party toadies and suck ups they actually are.  He has shown what happens when government bureaucrats (particularly those working in intelligence gathering divisions) are left to their own devices without adequate Congressional and citizens oversight.  He has done a ton of good things the problem is too goddamn many idiots in this country have poked their own eyes out in order to avoid looking at them.

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9 hours ago, gmr548 said:

The party's had a lot of disaffected former Republicans come into the tent, which tilts the balance of power to the moderate wing of the party. That's probably thr single biggest thing this cycle. Many of these voters will return to the GOP in 2022 and beyond. Over the same time period, the numbers of older, more moderate democrats will naturally dwindle and more progressive millenials and gen z will take on more leadership. I'd think this is the older wing's battle of the bulge, but we'll see. If the GOP remains the white nationalist party maybe more of those gen x Republicans stick around and bolster the moderate wing.

Agree.  And in a perfect world, in several years when the dust settles, the Dems will be led by the progressive wing and the GOP will be led by the current moderate GOP/Dems.  During all the polarization and animosity, I think there has also been a quiet somewhat unified middle forming.  And that middle is formed by moderate Dems and former moderate Republicans who are finding out they are largely the same even while they used to believe they had irreconcilable differences.

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Agree.  And in a perfect world, in several years when the dust settles, the Dems will be led by the progressive wing and the GOP will be led by the current moderate GOP/Dems.  During all the polarization and animosity, I think there has also been a quiet somewhat unified middle forming.  And that middle is formed by moderate Dems and former moderate Republicans who are finding out they are largely the same even while they used to believe they had irreconcilable differences.
In a perfect world, anyone associated with the current GOP has no place in public life. In a respectable nation that shit would be toxic.

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16 minutes ago, EMAWesome said:

He has shown what happens when government bureaucrats (particularly those working in intelligence gathering divisions) are left to their own devices without adequate Congressional and citizens oversight.

he has definitely shown us what happens when there isn't adequate congressional oversight when members of the govt are left to their own devices.  this is probably his greatest achievement.

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4 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

What if roughly 40% of voters in one political party were able to pick the nominee? Can you even imagine? That would be fucking insanity? 

iswydt

and for awhile it looked like Bernie was going to pull the same trick

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1 hour ago, Casual Encounter said:

Conversation for another thread and you wouldn’t agree anyway.

Why another thread? I am just asking what good you think he’s done? I don’t have to agree I am just curious what it is.

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Our primate brains with their logical fallacies can't sufficiently process the income inequalities we have in this country. The difference between a million and a billion is INSANE. And there are people with HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars. My sister sent me this link today. 

https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/

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39 minutes ago, Grandioso said:

Our primate brains with their logical fallacies can't sufficiently process the income inequalities we have in this country. The difference between a million and a billion is INSANE. And there are people with HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars. My sister sent me this link today. 

https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/

Our Gini coefficient is an embarrassment. 

“The Gini coefficient compares the income or wealth distribution of a population to a perfectly equal distribution—in which every citizen of a city or country has equal wealth. To compute the Gini coefficient, economists first find the Lorenz curve for the population. The curve is a graphical representation of the distribution of income or wealth in a society. The x-axis is the proportion of the population, from lowest to highest income, and the y-axis is the cumulative percentage of income or wealth owned. So the point (0.5, 0.2) would indicate that the lowest-income 50 percent of the population earned 20 percent of the total income. A perfectly equal society would have a Lorenz distribution that looks like the line y = x.“

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ask-gini/
 

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Our primate brains with their logical fallacies can't sufficiently process the income inequalities we have in this country. The difference between a million and a billion is INSANE. And there are people with HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars. My sister sent me this link today. 
https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/
We are a failed society.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, gmr548 said:
1 hour ago, Grandioso said:
Our primate brains with their logical fallacies can't sufficiently process the income inequalities we have in this country. The difference between a million and a billion is INSANE. And there are people with HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars. My sister sent me this link today. 
https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/

Read more  

We are a failed society.

True. But we have always been a failed society.  We only had a brief respite because we killed 85 million of each other in a short time frame 80 years ago.  That resulted in some soul searching and better governance for a while for a variety of reasons.  The selfishness of baby boomers, who grew up with almost no adversity, is just a return to form.

But Europe also rebuilt a more equal society for a reason, and had an easier road to do so. Which sex dies more in a war?  We never fully learned the lesson. 

America may be the best country ever when we recognize our own flaws and mistakes and learn from them.  When we think we are flawless, we may well be the most terrible. Right now, we are in full on blind patriotism. The same type of blind  patriotism that completed a genocide and also kept slavery around well past its expiration date.

Edited by FondrenRoad

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20 minutes ago, gmr548 said:
1 hour ago, Grandioso said:
Our primate brains with their logical fallacies can't sufficiently process the income inequalities we have in this country. The difference between a million and a billion is INSANE. And there are people with HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars. My sister sent me this link today. 
https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/

We are a failed society.

We are a society with so much potential for bettering humankind. But we fell into tedious petty tribalist period. 

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12 hours ago, EMAWesome said:

He has got the entire Democrat Party to expose themselves as the frauds and wanna be dictators they actually are.  He has got the mainstream media to expose themselves as the the ass kissing, taint licking, gutless Democrat Party toadies and suck ups they actually are.  He has shown what happens when government bureaucrats (particularly those working in intelligence gathering divisions) are left to their own devices without adequate Congressional and citizens oversight.  He has done a ton of good things the problem is too goddamn many idiots in this country have poked their own eyes out in order to avoid looking at them.

this just might be the worst post ever in the short, illustrious surly history, typical of the delusion and ignorance of the republican party.  trump is the wanna be dictator, not the dems.  they're the ones fighting him, in case you've been locked in a closet.  he's the one that wants to limit the press, shut down any and all critics, fire anyone investigating him or that has anything to do with an investigation of him, lies, steals, cheats, most dishonest president ever, only president ever to refuse to release his tax returns, only president ever to refuse to divest from conflicting financial interests.  we no longer have a system of checks and balances.  he has centralized power in the executive branch to the point that we now have a dictatorship.  

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, thrillhammer said:

this just might be the worst post ever in the short, illustrious surly history, typical of the delusion and ignorance of the republican party.  trump is the wanna be dictator, not the dems.  they're the ones fighting him, in case you've been locked in a closet.  he's the one that wants to limit the press, shut down any and all critics, fire anyone investigating him or that has anything to do with an investigation of him, lies, steals, cheats, most dishonest president ever, only president ever to refuse to release his tax returns, only president ever to refuse to divest from conflicting financial interests.  we no longer have a system of checks and balances.  he has centralized power in the executive branch to the point that we now have a dictatorship.  

 

Yeah, maybe that's all true, but what you have to remember is that EMAW got an extra $45 back on his tax refund and now has a Costco membership. If Hillary were president he'd still be shopping at Food Lion. That'd be the real tyranny.

Worth it!

Edited by Tom

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14 hours ago, EMAWesome said:

He has done a ton of good things the problem is too goddamn many idiots in this country have poked their own eyes out in order to avoid looking at them.

tenor.gif

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I don't think progressivism is going anywhere until there is a sane opposition party to the Democrats.  Right now we have the part of abject ignorance, basking in rage and another party of education and reasonableness.  And progressives and moderates in an uneasy alliance within that party, most of whom just want a day where embarrassing presidential inanity with a dose of wanton corruption isn't in the news.

Hell, I consider myself a progressive, but at this point Medicare for All is somewhere down toward the bottom of my list of things I give a fuck about, well below reuniting the kids we've locked up with their families, not providing disaster relief based on the governor's party, having a competent DOJ, having an actual plan to deal with a pandemic,  and not being repeatedly lied to by the president.

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The future in American politics is with the progressive movement, almost by default because they’re the only faction with ideas that go beyond perpetuating a crippling status quo or demonizing the other party. 

Bernie was a great salesman in advancing the ideas but not great when it came to strategy or coalition building.  The leaders of the progressive movement will need to be good at all three. 

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On 5/18/2020 at 8:57 PM, Casual Encounter said:

Conversation for another thread and you wouldn’t agree anyway.

Still waiting on a response to this. I don’t have it agree heck I won’t even respond if that gets me a response, just curious what good you think he’s done? Another poster basically said own the libs and the fake media, but that’s not exactly what our expectations are of the president of the United States. 

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If the Counsel on Foreign Relations can find merit in Trump's foreign policy, I am sure any Establishment stan can muster up a few. For those interested in Trump (in a thread about progressive thought) - here is a read for you from the Bush II/Obama/Hillary stans at the CFR: https://www.cfr.org/report/trumps-foreign-policies-are-better-they-seem

--------------------------

And I agree with your analysis Hugo. I must stress the lack of a cult of personality surrounding Bernie, however. It was never him; it was always about us - the people of the United States. 

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20 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

tenor.gif

Since covid is disproportionately killing minorities, he thinks it’s good that Trump hasn’t done anything to stop it.

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8 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

If the Counsel on Foreign Relations can find merit in Trump's foreign policy, I am sure any Establishment stan can muster up a few. For those interested in Trump (in a thread about progressive thought) - here is a read for you from the Bush II/Obama/Hillary stans at the CFR: https://www.cfr.org/report/trumps-foreign-policies-are-better-they-seem

--------------------------

And I agree with your analysis Hugo. I must stress the lack of a cult of personality surrounding Bernie, however. It was never him; it was always about us - the people of the United States. 

That's a 65 page report, so not gonna read, but I skimmed and he gave dotard an F on Climate Change, which is exactly right.  Also, from the link:

Quote

The report, however, also acknowledges President Trump’s significant foreign policy shortcomings. According to Blackwill, the president “conveys foreign policy failures as successes and minor accomplishments as cosmic victories. He makes important decisions against the advice of his cabinet advisors—if he consults them at all. He has had unprecedented turnover in senior foreign and defense policy positions and, at this writing, has had three national security advisors. In sum, there is no steady interagency decision-making process within the administration because the president apparently does not believe that he needs one.” 

 

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3 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

That's a 65 page report, so not gonna read, but I skimmed and he gave dotard an F on Climate Change, which is exactly right.  Also, from the link:

 

From page 67 of the "PDF version" of the file - the final grades:

"The grades for President Trump’s foreign policies just past the halfway point in his term are:

China (B+), North Korea (B), Syria (B+), Saudi Arabia (B+), Israel (B), Iran (C), Afghanistan (B+), India (B+), Venezu- ela (B+), and trade (C); against his grades for climate (F), European secu- rity (D), Russia (F), policy process (F), character (F), American values (F), U.S. alliances and deterrence (F), and policy implementation (D).

This report, heavily influenced by the president’s realistic approaches to China and the greater Middle East, gives him an overall foreign policy grade of D+ . . . "

I would say that is fair (the D+). Mind you, this is from the CFR with its less than stellar reputation for peace and tranquility. The CFR is an Establishment polestar for Corporate Dems and NeverTrumper Republicans. 

 

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On 5/18/2020 at 12:35 PM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

The branding of progressivism as a far left ideology is what needs to end.  

This country was founded by progressives that worked to ensure power in our society was democratized and not centralized by one or the very few.

Ending slavery was a progressive idea at the time. 

Teddy Roosevelt was a self proclaimed progressive but people don’t remember him as a one.  

EVERY positive turn this country has made has been led by progressives looking to ensure more egalitarian power. 

19789999.jpg

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Let’s see. Saudi Arabia who we just illegally sold billions in arms to and tacitly let get away with murdering a journalist? North Korea whom he was threatening with nuclear war and then claimed victory in a complete abortion of a “negotiation”?China whom he has been flooding with tariffs the way someone who doesn’t understand tariffs does?  Iran in which he pulled out of a nuclear deal that was working and has since threatened with war multiple times?

Fucking bang up job on those “policies”!

The author was a W guy who was deeply involved in that admin’s Middle East foreign policy, which I think we can all agree was...not great. 

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1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

The author was a W guy who was deeply involved in that admin’s Middle East foreign policy, which I think we can all agree was...not great. 

A Never-Trumper Neocon - the new Democratic Party base. 

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Reading Democratic Socialist/Purity Left Twitter is such a fucking beating. This defiance against "the lesser of two evils" voting is fucking ridiculous. #NeverBiden, "I don't vote for rapists!," don't vote for corporate democrats! Grow the fuck up, be an adult, and accept the miserable compromises you must make in our democracy. I'm sorry voting for Biden offends you but it is basically a moral duty at this point if you really give a shit about anything you proclaim to care about. Bernie gets it. Chomsky gets it. AOC gets it. 

In my first presidential election, I voted for Nader because I bought into the "Gore and Bush are the same, MAAAAAN!" bullshit. If just a fraction of Nader votes had gone the other way in places like Florida for example, Gore wins that election. Three years later we're in Iraq. Yeah, no difference! Al Gore would have totally brought on Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Libby, Bolton, and the rest of the Project for the New American Century and invaded Iraq.

Now, the exact same idiots with the exact same lamentations are plugging along, threatening to stay home or vote Green, having learned nothing. This despite the fact that they are shrieking about Biden having supported Iraq - the war that never would have happened if the left would have just fucking fallen in line in 2000. 

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8 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

A Never-Trumper Neocon - the new Democratic Party base. 

The left is insisting mainstream Democrats are "courting" Never Trumpers when I just see the two groups as making common cause against a shared enemy. In this case, the enemy is a fascist and an existential threat to this country. I have seen no evidence the Democratic platform has moved right to cater to Never Trumpers. I have seen a lot of former Republicans saying quasi-liberal shit that they never said under Obama - and that's a good thing. It's the Never Trumpers that are moving, IMO. 

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A frank and good read on the failure of Sanders against Biden. It is not kind to the Sanders' campaign:

"Why would the portion of Democratic primary voters animated by this suite of issues—impeachment, Ukraine, Russian interference, and so forth—be inclined to vote for Sanders in the first place? They had plenty of other options (Warren especially) who were more in keeping with their affluent liberal proclivities.

But in fruitlessly catering to this demographic, Sanders jettisoned another quality that gave his campaign an aura of excitement in 2016, when he exuded the sense of being distinct from the rest of the mainstream Democratic Party.

Four years later, there he was, participating in the obligatory anti-Trump sweepstakes—competing with the other can­didates over who could inveigh the most vociferously against Trump.

While Sanders never lost what always came across as a gen­uinely felt populist fervor against the billionaire class, he often sound­ed like he was half-heartedly reading from the script of a liberal afflicted with Trump Derangement Syndrome when he would go through the mo­tions of listing Trump’s various crimes: racism, sexism, homo­phobia, xenophobia, etc., etc., etc. After four exhausting years of this from all liberal quarters, many of those who chose Bernie over Hillary last time were neither convinced nor impressed.” 

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2020/05/first-as-tragedy-then-as-farce/

 

 

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1 minute ago, Grandioso said:

The left is insisting mainstream Democrats are "courting" Never Trumpers when I just see the two groups as making common cause against a shared enemy. In this case, the enemy is a fascist and an existential threat to this country. I have seen no evidence the Democratic platform has moved right to cater to Never Trumpers. I have seen a lot of former Republicans saying quasi-liberal shit that they never said under Obama - and that's a good thing. It's the Never Trumpers that are moving, IMO. 

When you see the number of "Democrats" posting David Frum excrement as we do now, the Democratic Party has indeed moved further right since 2016. 

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53 minutes ago, washparkhorn said:

A Never-Trumper Neocon - the new Democratic Party base. 

 A group of 15-20 people can hardly constitute a party's base.

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2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

 A group of 15-20 people can hardly constitute a party's base.

Thought-leaders?

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1 hour ago, washparkhorn said:

A frank and good read on the failure of Sanders against Biden. It is not kind to the Sanders' campaign:

"Why would the portion of Democratic primary voters animated by this suite of issues—impeachment, Ukraine, Russian interference, and so forth—be inclined to vote for Sanders in the first place? They had plenty of other options (Warren especially) who were more in keeping with their affluent liberal proclivities.

But in fruitlessly catering to this demographic, Sanders jettisoned another quality that gave his campaign an aura of excitement in 2016, when he exuded the sense of being distinct from the rest of the mainstream Democratic Party.

Four years later, there he was, participating in the obligatory anti-Trump sweepstakes—competing with the other can­didates over who could inveigh the most vociferously against Trump.

While Sanders never lost what always came across as a gen­uinely felt populist fervor against the billionaire class, he often sound­ed like he was half-heartedly reading from the script of a liberal afflicted with Trump Derangement Syndrome when he would go through the mo­tions of listing Trump’s various crimes: racism, sexism, homo­phobia, xenophobia, etc., etc., etc. After four exhausting years of this from all liberal quarters, many of those who chose Bernie over Hillary last time were neither convinced nor impressed.” 

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2020/05/first-as-tragedy-then-as-farce/

 

 

That was a very interesting read. I don't understand her main thesis very well, but many of the observations were great.

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Just now, Grandioso said:

That was a very interesting read. I don't understand her main thesis very well, but many of the observations were great.

As a progressive, I see it as a rather searing critique of the Sanders campaign through a progressive lens.

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I think the biggest omission in the article was the historical context of 2016 v. 2020. 

2016 was the year to "take a flyer" on a wildcard like Bernie or Trump. The economy was humming, Obama was running an honest executive branch, and there weren't any disasters or major scale wars going on. A "Revolution"? Sure, why not?!

After 4 years of Trump I think the dominant attitude among average Joe democrats is to play this shit as safely as possible. How else does Biden win just coasting along on his name and Obama-era nostalgia. 

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2 hours ago, washparkhorn said:

When you see the number of "Democrats" posting David Frum excrement as we do now, the Democratic Party has indeed moved further right since 2016. 

when bernie bros asked why biden, we all said that he had a good chance to beat trump, that this was all about the common goal - beating trump, we didn't care about the journey, only the destination.  never-trumpers (republicans by definition) like frum have been very effective in their attacks on trump, which is right in line with what most of us want. 

i've always been much more anti-trump than i have been pro-biden.  i think most "biden-supporters" here would agree with that.  when we see great attacks on trump, we respond regardless of where it comes from. 

people for bernie were for something.  people for biden are against something.  that's just where we are right now, there's no purpose in dissecting it for analysis.

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