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Summer riots/protests damage & tactics documentation thread (no politics, please)

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6 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Do you think if you keep mentioning it over and over again, you'll eventually fish someone here who condones what Derek Chauvin did?  How many of the 800,000 police are Derek Chauvins?  Why is onus solely on them to change, but no accountability or responsibility on behalf of the perps? 

 

The shithead thug that refused 10 minutes of police instruction... you're saying the problem is that THERE WASNT ENOUGH OFFICERS ON SCENE... not that the shithead was noncomplaint?  This is the exact sort of deferral of blame that I find obtuse. 

  Bruh, there will always be outliers. No system is perfect. What we are addressing is the needless escalation that happens often times when police show up. Police are the ones who are supposed to be handling the situation. A guy is drunk. A guy got a hold of the wrong drugs and is tripping balls. Someone just lost two family members in a car accident then turned around and lost their job the next day. In any of those scenarios the so called "perp" isn't going to be in the best state of mind. If you come in screaming at them and tossing them around the reaction probably isn't going to be positive. Most, and hear me when I say most, situations start here with egos, respect, and feelings. If we do a better job at the jump off point, we likely avoid a lot of bad situations. Of course, there will always be the weirdos that are trying their best to commit death by cop.

 

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2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  Bruh, there will always be outliers. No system is perfect. What we are addressing is the needless escalation that happens often times when police show up. Police are the ones who are supposed to be handling the situation. A guy is drunk. A guy got a hold of the wrong drugs and is tripping balls. Someone just lost two family members in a car accident then turned around and lost their job the next day. In any of those scenarios the so called "perp" isn't going to be in the best state of mind. If you come in screaming at them and tossing them around the reaction probably isn't going to be positive. Most, and hear me when I say most, situations start here with egos, respect, and feelings. If we do a better job at the jump off point, we likely avoid a lot of bad situations. Of course, there will always be the weirdos that are trying their best to commit death by cop.

 

so is 14 out of 330M considered an outlier?

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7 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

Even blacks do it.

An early shocking discovery for this white boy in Nowhere, Texas was listening to two black boys send a younger, much darker, girl to tears because of how black she was compared to them. I didn't really have any kind of larger understanding of it at the time other than to think it was terribly sad and to be mad at the boys, but hate is internalized in dangerous ways.

But it's all artificial, so just as it was pounded into our/your brain, it can be trained out. And we don't train it out with wringing hands, we train it out with actual equality. Your nice car and good salary didn't stop the cop, but I bet you it helped. I bet you he would've treated a broke-looking black guy in a busted 1993 Civic even worse. So we've got a slight improvement there, next we go after the power cops have to just draw down on people and treat them like garbage without consequence.

One piece of equality after another in a never-ending struggle.

--

Also, 52-80 dropping "The gun being drawn was excessive." like it's either nothing or close-to-nothing is hilarious.

"OK, so he raped the girl and that's bad, but he walked her home after, right? RIGHT!?"

   This is so true! My daughter, being mixed with Black, White, and Asian is very beautiful. However, she is struggling to find her place in society. The other Black Kids on her track team treated her differently because of the way she talks(West Coast). Last year she got called a nigger by another kid in her grade(6th). Imagine dealing with that at 11 years old. We try to teach her not to look down on kids for any reason, whether it be looks or money. However, other parents are clearly not doing the same. So when she came to me and asked why do people hate Black People I had to break it down for her. I never thought in the year 2020 that there would be all these things that I have to explain to her but here we are.

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1 hour ago, dcar00 said:

"oh wait sir, you want to fight me instead of being arrested?  please hold while I call back up with weapons.  this may take a few minutes or you can use our chat function."

Or learn to defend yourself with pepper spray, stun guns, billy clubs, or your own hands instead of sitting on your ass like slovenly pieces of shit. 

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7 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

Or learn to defend yourself with pepper spray, stun guns, billy clubs, or your own hands instead of sitting on your ass like slovenly pieces of shit. 

Except in NY, which as we all know has outlawed virtually all holds and physical restraint methods....so spray them in the face, and unsuccessful, crack their skulls or knees as that is all that you are left with.  You know...for their own good.  

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20 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

   This is so true! My daughter, being mixed with Black, White, and Asian is very beautiful. However, she is struggling to find her place in society. The other Black Kids on her track team treated her differently because of the way she talks(West Coast). Last year she got called a nigger by another kid in her grade(6th). Imagine dealing with that at 11 years old. We try to teach her not to look down on kids for any reason, whether it be looks or money. However, other parents are clearly not doing the same. So when she came to me and asked why do people hate Black People I had to break it down for her. I never thought in the year 2020 that there would be all these things that I have to explain to her but here we are.

Daughters best friend is Indian.  Lighter complexion.  Treated like a queen.  Her other Indian friends, darker, some very, very dark....ostracized by the lighter Indian kids.  Her second best friend is Korean.  Who's mom told her to win.  NO matter what.  And by God, come hell of high water, not to let "that Jap" kid beat you (another sweet Japanese girl they are friends with) regarding grades (daughter told me).  Let's not act like this is a black/white thing.  

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3 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

It depends on what kind of check or call you're talking about, I guess. But let's say theoretically I know someone very well who actually does the exact thing I'm talking about as her job, including recently driving at 10:30PM to some strangers' house all by herself because a kid was brought into a hospital in something that looked like pill-chasing scheme. Hospital calls her office, she goes and checks on it without so much as pepper spray in her purse. And hundreds of similar cases over decades of service.

Here's how the procedure works, neighbors/school/hospital contacts CPS.  CPS sends cops to visit the house.  Cops report back that there's no imminent harm or danger.  CPS sends a CPS investigator to visit the home.  Once a case is opened the caseworker can only arrange meetings with the caregivers.  If CPS gets called, the cops are going to be the ones showing up.  If CPS decides to remove your child, the cops show up to do it.

There no way no how a neighbor calls CPS for a ruckus and CPS injects themselves into a domestic situation, which is what you are implying.

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6 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Except in NY, which as we all know has outlawed virtually all holds and physical restraint methods....so spray them in the face, and unsuccessful, crack their skulls or knees as that is all that you are left with.  You know...for their own good.  

Oh I'll let Eric Garner know that they banned all the chokeholds - he'll be elated to know

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2 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Did you ever validate that 50 is in fact greater than 14?  Just checking?

First time ever clicking this thread (big mistake, I know) but in the last page or 2 I've seen this mentioned multiple times.  This 14 number I assume is citizens that have died/been killed by police in custody or in the process of custody that weren't armed compared to the amount of officers that have been killed (I'm assuming while on duty or in the process of making an arrest or whatever)?

Quick question and sorry if its been asked and answered before or just ignore me completely:  Does that 14 number (or the way they came about it) differentiate between whether the police knew, at the time, that the perp was armed or only found out after investigating?  For example, say I have a gun in my glove compartment but I never bring it up or even mention it because of something or another and shit goes sideways with my police encounter and I'm killed (either rightly so or the cop fucked up), am I included in the number of armed people killed by the police even though my weapon was never a factor in my encounter with the police?  Or if it was in my trunk and they only found it after doing an inventory search of my car after it was impounded by them? 

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30 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Daughters best friend is Indian.  Lighter complexion.  Treated like a queen.  Her other Indian friends, darker, some very, very dark....ostracized by the lighter Indian kids.  Her second best friend is Korean.  Who's mom told her to win.  NO matter what.  And by God, come hell of high water, not to let "that Jap" kid beat you (another sweet Japanese girl they are friends with) regarding grades (daughter told me).  Let's not act like this is a black/white thing.  

People Are Shitty is a universal truth.

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23 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Daughters best friend is Indian.  Lighter complexion.  Treated like a queen.  Her other Indian friends, darker, some very, very dark....ostracized by the lighter Indian kids.  Her second best friend is Korean.  Who's mom told her to win.  NO matter what.  And by God, come hell of high water, not to let "that Jap" kid beat you (another sweet Japanese girl they are friends with) regarding grades (daughter told me).  Let's not act like this is a black/white thing.  

My friends family moved to Japan when he was a tyke.  They're Korean.  They adopted a Japanese surname to avoid prejudice and for him to not get ostracized at school, even though he would look and talk identically to the rest of the kids, because there is some really weird and subtle prejudices in Japanese society.

That's the sticky stuff that deeply rooted in humans.  It's harder to solve.

If in 100 police encounters, 50 civilians act hostile, and 25 get roughed up, and out of the other 50 non-hostile encounter, only 1 get roughed up....  it's pretty clear which is the more obvious problem.

And after you reduce that bigger problem, the 1 example of injustice becomes a lot more obvious and gets the attention it deserves.

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5 minutes ago, CowboyFred said:

First time ever clicking this thread (big mistake, I know) but in the last page or 2 I've seen this mentioned multiple times.  This 14 number I assume is citizens that have died/been killed by police in custody or in the process of custody that weren't armed compared to the amount of officers that have been killed (I'm assuming while on duty or in the process of making an arrest or whatever)?

Quick question and sorry if its been asked and answered before or just ignore me completely:  Does that 14 number (or the way they came about it) differentiate between whether the police knew, at the time, that the perp was armed or only found out after investigating?  For example, say I have a gun in my glove compartment but I never bring it up or even mention it because of something or another and shit goes sideways with my police encounter and I'm killed (either rightly so or the cop fucked up), am I included in the number of armed people killed by the police even though my weapon was never a factor in my encounter with the police?  Or if it was in my trunk and they only found it after doing an inventory search of my car after it was impounded by them? 

It's a bullshit answer to a bullshit question/statement that "only 50 officers" died, thus statistically irrelevant in the larger scheme of overall police work and the dangers of the job.  ONLY 14 people were killed, this statistical data relative to the total population and number of stops, relative to the narrative of "police killing all these people".

Obviously, both statements are bullshit, which is the point.  14 deaths is a travesty.  So are 50 officers killed.  But you don't get to argue for one statistic without acknowledging the other.  

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41 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Daughters best friend is Indian.  Lighter complexion.  Treated like a queen.  Her other Indian friends, darker, some very, very dark....ostracized by the lighter Indian kids.  Her second best friend is Korean.  Who's mom told her to win.  NO matter what.  And by God, come hell of high water, not to let "that Jap" kid beat you (another sweet Japanese girl they are friends with) regarding grades (daughter told me).  Let's not act like this is a black/white thing.  

Since we have football goin' on,  I believe Bill Parcells applies here

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5 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

It's a bullshit answer to a bullshit question/statement that "only 50 officers" died, thus statistically irrelevant in the larger scheme of overall police work and the dangers of the job.  ONLY 14 people were killed, this statistical data relative to the total population and number of stops, relative to the narrative of "police killing all these people".

Obviously, both statements are bullshit, which is the point.  14 deaths is a travesty.  So are 50 officers killed.  But you don't get to argue for one statistic without acknowledging the other.  

thanks for the honest reply.  I'll see myself out now.

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Everyone here has seen video of police pulling someone over and end up getting shot by a perp with a gun.

Right?  We have video of that happening in the US.  Recently even.

So to think there is a universe we live in where cops would walk up to a traffic stop potentially being massively outgunned, it is not going to happen.

 

And don't get me started on women cops unarmed.  

 

Seriously.  This will never ever ever ever happen.

 

Soooooo, while it might be nice for the 66M stops that end peacefully to involve an unarmed Police, that's fucking fantasy land.  Unfortunately.

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3 hours ago, BabaYaga said:

Daughters best friend is Indian.  Lighter complexion.  Treated like a queen.  Her other Indian friends, darker, some very, very dark....ostracized by the lighter Indian kids.  Her second best friend is Korean.  Who's mom told her to win.  NO matter what.  And by God, come hell of high water, not to let "that Jap" kid beat you (another sweet Japanese girl they are friends with) regarding grades (daughter told me).  Let's not act like this is a black/white thing.  

  If you read up the thread where this all came from, I spoke directly about this very thing. I even mentioned Indians and Asians.

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4 hours ago, JBJ said:

Here's how the procedure works, neighbors/school/hospital contacts CPS.  CPS sends cops to visit the house.  Cops report back that there's no imminent harm or danger.  CPS sends a CPS investigator to visit the home.

That's sometimes how it works. That's not how it has to work or even usually works.

An honest question: What connection do you have to CPS? Are you, say, literally living with someone who has worked in/with CPS for multiple decades? Is there a longtime CPS employee living in your home with you right fucking now?

Holy Christ

Edited by bad_teammate

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4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

My friends family moved to Japan when he was a tyke.  They're Korean.  They adopted a Japanese surname to avoid prejudice and for him to not get ostracized at school, even though he would look and talk identically to the rest of the kids, because there is some really weird and subtle prejudices in Japanese society.

That's the sticky stuff that deeply rooted in humans.  It's harder to solve.

If in 100 police encounters, 50 civilians act hostile, and 25 get roughed up, and out of the other 50 non-hostile encounter, only 1 get roughed up....  it's pretty clear which is the more obvious problem.

And after you reduce that bigger problem, the 1 example of injustice becomes a lot more obvious and gets the attention it deserves.

   I am trying to understand this fictional equation where only one person gets roughed up. It's like you don't know that most of the time the hostility is caused by the cop roughing you up or treating you like shit in the first place. Most people aren't going to be treated like shit. Cop or no cop. So when the police show up and start yelling at you, shoving you around, slamming you against the car, and bending your arm past where it is supposed to, a lot of people will respond. I can tell you this happens because I've been through it when I was a poor teenager, and it was clear there was nothing I could do about it. I was once stopped by the same police 4 times in the same day. Each time cuffed and searched. Each time spoken to like I was a piece of shit. My generation was raised by the MLK generation, where no matter how the police tried to provoke a response, you did absolutely nothing. We still got roughed up on the regular. I know that's hard for you to believe, because that is simply not your reality, but it is for us. When you step out of the vehicle with the thought in your head that the person you are about to deal with is a piece of shit and beneath you, you are going to inherently treat that person like a piece of shit. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

   Just like, to this day I still cannot get good service in a restaurant. Anyone here who has ever worked in one knows why. A large majority of servers see Black People and automatically assume they aren't getting a tip. So they come over with that attitude, the service goes south, and sure as shit they don't get tipped. That reinforces the Black People don't tip in their heads, so rinse and repeat. On the other side the Black People sit down at a table and watch the server go from laughing and smiling at one table, to no emotion at theirs. Plates are left on the table. Refills are not gotten. So after years of this it's hard to throw down a really nice tip as a pay it forward for the next time that server has Black People, but I do it anyway.

    Policing is exactly like this for a large portion of the Black Community. However, because it's not the reality of other people, it's hard for them to understand. They simply chalk it up to people being unruly. When in reality it's a simple case of whatever energy you put out is the energy you get. Step out of the car and treat them like it's your grandmother you are stopping or arresting and things will likely not go south.

 

Edited by Thatguy

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31 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

Author of this article (Rav Arora) is 19 years old and it's one big old truth-bomb.

 

   Yeah...that piece is not neutral. While colorfully worded, framing the George Floyd case as a "wait til the facts come out" is negligent at best. The drugs didn't just choose that moment to kick in.

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On 9/15/2020 at 11:55 AM, BabaYaga said:

Does that include American being the only developed nation with it's infrastructure and manufacturing capacity intact after a world war that ravaged across multiple continents?  It's not hard to be the best in a race of one.  War factories were repurposed with a massive influx of returning men proficient in mechanization and technology.  European production ramped up fairly quickly after the war, but imports/exports were scarce.  Many command/control countries had to completely revamp their economies to that or a free-market approach.  You had currency reforms, and entire countries split and fragmented.  

what would you say are the implications of being the only developed nation with its infrastructure intact?

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7 hours ago, Thatguy said:

   I am trying to understand this fictional equation where only one person gets roughed up. It's like you don't know that most of the time the hostility is caused by the cop roughing you up or treating you like shit in the first place.

Here's some factual numbers for you, tallied since 2015.  Let's see you make the conclusions. 

5600 fatal police shootings

4200 instances, victims were armed with firearms or knives (3200+1000)

350 instances, victims were unarmed

If you wanted to find the more common cause for shooting, you'd say (A) because victim were armed , or (B) because most of the time cops enjoy shooting people willy nilly.

 

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4 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Here's some factual numbers for you, tallied since 2015.  Let's see you make the conclusions. 

5600 fatal police shootings

4200 instances, victims were armed with firearms or knives (3200+1000)

350 instances, victims were unarmed

If you wanted to find the more common cause for shooting, you'd say (A) because victim were armed , or (B) because most of the time cops enjoy shooting people willy nilly.

 

  First we are talking about all incidents. You didn't want to talk about those, you wanted to focus on shooting deaths. Then you make a post about getting roughed up. I respond to that. Then you respond to my response with a post about shooting deaths again. Keep the goalposts steady so I can kick.

  As myself, Brisket, and a few others have said it's about all the incidents in one. Hell, these protests started due to a death that had nothing to do with a gun at all. Some people are killed with a weapon and some without. Some people mysteriously die on the ride to the station(Freddie Gray). Some people mysteriously die in their cell(Sandra Bland). Some people get shot and live while fighting back(Jacob Blake), and some get shot and live while complying(Charles Kinsey). Some people get killed while answering their door(Botham Jean). Some get killed while shopping at Walmart(John Crawford). Some get asphyxiated(George Floyd Eric Garner Daniel Prude). Shit, some just get their ass whipped(Rodney King). And some are riding in the back of a Lyft when the Lyft driver gets stopped for no taillight, and get asked for their ID, when they say why are they getting asked for their ID, they get pulled out of the car and beaten unconscious(Roderick Walker). And a whole host of other people are out there getting their asses kicked, roughed up, and simply profiled.

   All of these things have one thing in common. Black People. Who just happen to be experiencing this at a much higher rate than anyone else. A study done by Standford called The Standford Open Policing project showed that whether white or black, the hit(finding something illegal) numbers on stop and searches are the same. However, black people are simply stopped at a much higher rate. The study investigated 200 million stops.

  What you are missing is Brutal Policing has always been part of the Black Community. Long before wars on drugs, and incarceration rates were sky high. Long before gang banging. Long before people were challenging police with guns or weapons. My Grandparents broke it down for us when I was a child, and they were born in 1927, so they were catching ass kickings in the 40's. They told their own stories, as well as the ones told to them by their grandparents, who one of them was hung in the teens. My mom and dad told stories of the 60's and 70's. And sure as shit, I got my dose in the 80's and 90's. This has always gone on and it has shit to do with fighting police or a failure to comply.

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20 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  First we are talking about all incidents. You didn't want to talk about those, you wanted to focus on shooting deaths. Then you make a post about getting roughed up. I respond to that. Then you respond to my response with a post about shooting deaths again. Keep the goalposts steady so I can kick.

* The shooting death is used as a proxy for violence/brutality

* The shooting death is of much more urgent, impactful consequence, than people getting "roughed up" (unless you want to disagree here???)

* The shooting death is much more reliable, definable data than whether someone was "roughed up"

And finally

*The shooting death numbers are readily available -- compiled by WaPo.  So if you want to "steady the goalpost", feel free to find the data and have at it.

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23 hours ago, dcar00 said:

so is 14 out of 330M considered an outlier?

I would challenge you to go sit in a room with black people and tell them that because they are alive, they have not experienced police brutality or racism.

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9 hours ago, 52-80 said:

Here's some factual numbers for you, tallied since 2015.  Let's see you make the conclusions. 

5600 fatal police shootings

4200 instances, victims were armed with firearms or knives (3200+1000)

350 instances, victims were unarmed

If you wanted to find the more common cause for shooting, you'd say (A) because victim were armed , or (B) because most of the time cops enjoy shooting people willy nilly.

 

  Also, before you asked how to remedy the problems in the ghettos in the first place. Well, when the prohibition was leading to more criminal activity the country paid attention and did away with the act. When Crack became a problem in the inner cities the country tossed videos on tv demonizing the drug, and then started tossing out football numbers for drug addicts. When people like Malcolm X and the Panthers came about, the government, afraid of Black People starting a revolution, started over policing the neighborhoods, and arresting Blacks by the millions. That lead to Black People feeling like they needed to protect and police themselves, which is how gangs in LA came about.

  You wanna fix the ghettos? Stop demonizing Black America. Stop the war on drugs. Stop gang injunctions. Stop gang enhancements. Stop targeting Blacks on traffic stops. Stop dehumanizing us. Maybe then we can start the healing process. Black People shouldn't have to damn near be perfect to escape incarceration or legal issues.

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22 minutes ago, Foosters said:

I would challenge you to go sit in a room with black people and tell them that because they are alive, they have not experienced police brutality or racism.

  He wouldn't make it out of the room. I laugh at all these guys filtering out all violent police encounters except shooting deaths. Like getting your ass kicked during a traffic stop doesn't count.

  When I was a senior in high school I was forced off the road by an off duty cop on the way to Galveston. He was driving an unmarked car with his wife and 3 fishing poles in the back. The only way we knew he was a cop is because he was flashing his badge while swerving his car at us and screaming to pull over. We did. He screams at us to get out of the car(3 of us), tosses us face down on the hood, cuffs us, and makes us sit on the guardrail on the side of the freeway while he tosses all our shit out of the car while searching it. He returns angry that he didn't find anything and lets us go. We never knew why he pulled us over, we just sat there dumbfounded and embarrassed.

  Another time 4 of us were headed to the movies. I lived in an apartment so my friend's car was parallel parked on the side street. As we approached the car the police slowly creeped by heading the opposite direction our car was pointed, looking at us the whole time, and stopped at the stop sign and just sat there. As soon as we pulled off they did a U turn and flipped the lights on. A cop came up on each side. My friend drove a shelby daytona, so there wasn't much head room in the back. So one of the guys had to take his hat off to sit back there. He had it in his lap. I guess his hand moved because the next thing I know guns came flying out screaming get your hands away from the hat. I thought we were dead. We got dragged out off the car, face down on the pavement and cuffed. When they pulled me up I had pebbles stuck to my cheek from the force of his knee on my neck forcing my face into the ground. I was pretty pissed, but I knew if I reacted I was going to jail with the usual resisting charge. They had us there for a long ass time. Neighbors out wondering what was going on. None of us had anything on us or had any legal issues so they let us go. Of course we missed our movie.

  But if you ask these guys that story(and a whole host of other stories I have)doesn't count. According to them the police treat everyone like this. Inner city Black People have anxiety about police for a reason, and it damn sure isn't fabricated.

Edited by Thatguy

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1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

  He wouldn't make it out of the room. I laugh at all these guys filtering out all violent police encounters except shooting deaths. Like getting your ass kicked during a traffic stop doesn't count.

  When I was a senior in high school I was forced off the road by an off duty cop on the way to Galveston. He was driving an unmarked car with his wife and 3 fishing poles in the back. The only way we knew he was a cop is because he was flashing his badge while swerving his car at us and screaming to pull over. We did. He screams at us to get out of the car(3 of us), tosses us face down on the hood, cuffs us, and makes us sit on the guardrail on the side of the freeway while he tosses all our shit out of the car while searching it. He returns angry that he didn't find anything and lets us go. We never knew why he pulled us over, we just sat there dumbfounded and embarrassed.

  Another time 4 of us were headed to the movies. I lived in an apartment so my friend's car was parallel parked on the side street. As we approached the car the police slowly creeped by heading the opposite direction our car was pointed, looking at us the whole time, and stopped at the stop sign and just sat there. As soon as we pulled off they did a U turn and flipped the lights on. A cop came up on each side. My friend drove a shelby daytona, so there wasn't much head room in the back. So one of the guys had to take his hat off to sit back there. He had it in his lap. I guess his hand moved because the next thing I know guns came flying out screaming get your hands away from the hat. I thought we were dead. We got dragged out off the car, face down on the pavement and cuffed. When they pulled me up I had pebbles stuck to my cheek from the force of his knee on my neck forcing my face into the ground. I was pretty pissed, but I knew if I reacted I was going to jail with the usual resisting charge. They had us there for a long ass time. Neighbors out wondering what was going on. None of us had anything on us or had any legal issues so they let us go. Of course we missed our movie.

  But if you ask these guys that story(and a whole host of other stories I have)doesn't count. According to them the police treat everyone like this. Inner city Black People have anxiety about police for a reason, and it damn sure isn't fabricated.

You are speaking to people incapable of hearing you. I wouldn't waste much more time with them.

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1 minute ago, Foosters said:

You are speaking to people incapable of hearing you. I wouldn't waste much more time with them.

True. I usually go for a bit and then bow out for months before returning to see nothing has changed. lol That's why my post count is only 855.

Edited by Thatguy

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1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

True. I usually go for a bit and then bow out for months before returning to see nothing has changed. lol That's why my post count is only 855.

Is there a reddit thread, or some other aggregation, where black men tell the "okay, fuckers, let me tell you about all the times cops utterly fucked me over" stories?  People around here hear an anecdote or two, and say "sure, it happens," but they just don't believe that it happens regularly and systematically....and one of the reasons they don't is because there is no rigorous statistical analysis.  How in the fuck would we even get that?  Wouldn't we depend on....the very PDs that are the bad actors, to VOLUNTARILY compile and report all the times they yanked black dudes out of their cars for no reason?  Come on.

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6 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

  He wouldn't make it out of the room. I laugh at all these guys filtering out all violent police encounters except shooting deaths. Like getting your ass kicked during a traffic stop doesn't count.

  When I was a senior in high school I was forced off the road by an off duty cop on the way to Galveston. He was driving an unmarked car with his wife and 3 fishing poles in the back. The only way we knew he was a cop is because he was flashing his badge while swerving his car at us and screaming to pull over. We did. He screams at us to get out of the car(3 of us), tosses us face down on the hood, cuffs us, and makes us sit on the guardrail on the side of the freeway while he tosses all our shit out of the car while searching it. He returns angry that he didn't find anything and lets us go. We never knew why he pulled us over, we just sat there dumbfounded and embarrassed.

  Another time 4 of us were headed to the movies. I lived in an apartment so my friend's car was parallel parked on the side street. As we approached the car the police slowly creeped by heading the opposite direction our car was pointed, looking at us the whole time, and stopped at the stop sign and just sat there. As soon as we pulled off they did a U turn and flipped the lights on. A cop came up on each side. My friend drove a shelby daytona, so there wasn't much head room in the back. So one of the guys had to take his hat off to sit back there. He had it in his lap. I guess his hand moved because the next thing I know guns came flying out screaming get your hands away from the hat. I thought we were dead. We got dragged out off the car, face down on the pavement and cuffed. When they pulled me up I had pebbles stuck to my cheek from the force of his knee on my neck forcing my face into the ground. I was pretty pissed, but I knew if I reacted I was going to jail with the usual resisting charge. They had us there for a long ass time. Neighbors out wondering what was going on. None of us had anything on us or had any legal issues so they let us go. Of course we missed our movie.

  But if you ask these guys that story(and a whole host of other stories I have)doesn't count. According to them the police treat everyone like this. Inner city Black People have anxiety about police for a reason, and it damn sure isn't fabricated.

 

If you had ALL these clear cut cases of black and white, wanton abuses -- and im not claiming they dont exist -- why would you champion all the grayscale, edge cases with known criminals engaging in violent act, and then cry bloody murder?  

Seems like a terrific way to delegitimize your campaign.

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42 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

My friend drove a shelby daytona, so there wasn't much head room in the back. So one of the guys had to take his hat off to sit back there.

What?

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23 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

 

If you had ALL these clear cut cases of black and white, wanton abuses -- and im not claiming they dont exist -- why would you champion all the grayscale, edge cases with known criminals engaging in violent act, and then cry bloody murder?  

Seems like a terrific way to delegitimize your campaign.

People have championed a shitload of cases that aren't grayscale.....and it doesn't matter, people try to turn them into grayscale.  Tamir Rice didn't matter, and hey, that kid should have dropped the toy gun in .00001 seconds.  Ahmaud Arbery won't matter....and anyway, he was probably illegally casing houses under construction.  There's always something, some way to turn it back on the victim.  Shit, Botham Jean was in his own goddamned apartment, playing video games....but folks made sure to tell us about his weed.  Nevermind the numerous videos of things like guys jaywalking getting bodyslammed.  And nevermind that for most of the more "mundane" shit (just pulling over a black guy and hassling the shit out of him), there's no video.  That's kind of the point.  It's death by a thousand cuts.  Not all of them are as attention-grabbing as watching someone's last breaths.  And in the end, it doesn't matter.....it's always "gray" -- there's always SOMETHING the black guy could have done better.  Thatguy is right -- the bar for conduct of black men is so damned high that it might as well be on the moon.  

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People have championed a shitload of cases that aren't grayscale.....and it doesn't matter, people try to turn them into grayscale.  Tamir Rice didn't matter, and hey, that kid should have dropped the toy gun in .00001 seconds.  Ahmaud Arbery won't matter....and anyway, he was probably illegally casing houses under construction.  There's always something, some way to turn it back on the victim.  Shit, Botham Jean was in his own goddamned apartment, playing video games....but folks made sure to tell us about his weed.  Nevermind the numerous videos of things like guys jaywalking getting bodyslammed.  And nevermind that for most of the more "mundane" shit (just pulling over a black guy and hassling the shit out of him), there's no video.  That's kind of the point.  It's death by a thousand cuts.  Not all of them are as attention-grabbing as watching someone's last breaths.  And in the end, it doesn't matter.....it's always "gray" -- there's always SOMETHING the black guy could have done better.  Thatguy is right -- the bar for conduct of black men is so damned high that it might as well be on the moon.  
It still amazes me that you have to explain these things to people in thus day and age with all the videos, and all the information readily available. We've been telling them for decades and they still ignore it. I mean, that dude just got beaten unconscious by police for being black while riding in the back of a Lyft. Seriously, what is it gonna take.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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2 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

It still amazes me that you have to explain these things to people in thus day and age with all the videos, and all the information readily available. We've been telling them for decades and they still ignore it. I mean, that dude just got beaten unconscious by police for being black while riding in the back of a Lyft. Seriously, what is it gonna take.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

There's always some way to turn it around on the black guy.  Always.  And even if you cite 1,000 anecdotes (which is almost all we have, because PDs are understandably reluctant to reveal their improper actions), it's "well, nobody's perfect, you can't prove it's systemic." 

If anyone is interested in some of the better analyses and recounting of the issue, here are some starters and examples (some of these pieces examine additional related issues, but all contain analysis of the frequency and nature of interactions between cops and black people):

https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-while-black-racial-profiling-our-nations-highways

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/06/03/10-things-we-know-about-race-and-policing-in-the-u-s/

https://www.kff.org/racial-equity-and-health-policy/press-release/poll-7-in-10-black-americans-say-they-have-experienced-incidents-of-discrimination-or-police-mistreatment-in-lifetime-including-nearly-half-who-felt-lives-were-in-danger/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/for-black-police-discrimination-abounds-complicating-reform-efforts-11592299800

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/findings/

And I could post 100 more, 1000 more.  It's real.  We all know it's real.  And if any given interaction with police has even a low likelihood of "going bad".....but one ethnic group has 3X as many interactions with cops, then they are going to have something around 3X the chance of an encounter "gone bad."  One of the best ways to avoid having a cop fuck you up.....is to very, very rarely have an encounter with a cop.  It's really the best preventative measure.  But Thatguy.....he really didn't have a choice in the matter, time after time.  His story is not atypical -- it's commonplace.

 

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15 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

It still amazes me that you have to explain these things to people in thus day and age with all the videos

I don't believe anyone disputes that there are bad cops. Those bad cops should be fired/prosecuted. I think the "explanation"  lies in how you can extrapolate a small minority of bad cops into ACAB. 

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57 minutes ago, Foosters said:

You are speaking to people incapable of hearing you. I wouldn't waste much more time with them.

Look, you have a political and sided world view, Thatguy, Brisket, Onboard, etc. Nobody on here is “listening” to each other. The discourse well has been poisoned by each side’s flame throwers. Ad hominem attacks abound. Sadly, it’s a reflection of our time.

You may get someone to hear you but peaceful discourse means someone on one side of the issue is going to have to step towards the other and without a proverbial Molotov cocktail in their hand.

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1 hour ago, Foosters said:

I would challenge you to go sit in a room with black people and tell them that because they are alive, they have not experienced police brutality or racism.

You'd be making assumptions on everyone, maybe there are a few who haven't, and some who have. Just because they hear it in the news doesn't they personally been pulled over for DWB, or even told something racist. It would probably be best to just ask them 14 out of 48,221,139 black people have been killed by cops. How do you feel about that? And go from there. Black people aren't a hive mind. There are black people who say to defund the police, and there are some who want about the same or more policing. 

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8 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

I don't believe anyone disputes that there are bad cops. Those bad cops should be fired/prosecuted. I think the "explanation"  lies in how you can extrapolate a small minority of bad cops into ACAB. 

The ACAB issue is an important one.  Because it isn't built on the foundation of how many cops do bad shit.  It rests on how many other cops let them get away with it.  And the results of the polling/analysis on that is troubling as hell: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/181312.pdf

Here's the relevant excerpt -- the 80 percent number sounds pretty good.....until you see what the numbers are in reality:

Quote

More than 80 percent of police surveyed reported that they do not accept the “code of silence” (i.e., keeping quiet in the face of misconduct by others) as an essential part of the mutual trust necessary to good policing (see exhibit 3). However, about one-quarter (24.9 percent) of the sample agreed or strongly agreed that whistle blowing is not worth it, more than two-thirds (67.4 percent) reported that police officers who report incidents of misconduct are likely to be given a “cold shoulder” by fellow officers, and a majority (52.4 percent) agreed or strongly agreed that it is not unusual for police officers to “turn a blind eye” to other officers’ improper conduct (exhibit 3). A surprising 6 in 10 (61 percent) indicated that police officers do not always report even serious criminal violations that involve the abuse of authority by fellow officers.9

That doesn't get us to "all" cops are bad.....but damn.....it's more than one or two here and there.  A lot more.  Cops themselves are admitting what we've been saying: the "code of silence" problem is widespread and systemic.

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3 minutes ago, workswithseed said:

It would probably be best to just ask them 14 out of 48,221,139 black people have been killed by cops.

And again.....why do you ignore all of the OTHER interactions with cops (oh, and the "14" number is a shitty one for you to use, and you know it -- that's just unarmed people shot by cops, not killed by other means, and certainly not beaten, assaulted, harassed for no good reason, etc.)?  I actually posted articles containing a lot of polling data on exactly your question, anyway....and guess what?  Consistently, across-the-board, black people report a materially higher rate of being fucked with by the cops.  Come on, man.  Stop.  We all know this is a real thing, and it's a real systemic problem.  Why in the fuck are people fighting so hard against acknowledging the simple and known facts that 1) any given black guy doing an innocuous activity like driving or hanging out in their own driveway, etc., is materially more likely to be hassled by the cops than a white guy doing the same thing, and 2) that's bad, and shouldn't happen?

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