Open Borders

[bad_teammate 13,018]

When you say "Open Borders", what is it you mean? What do you think others mean?

I think the logical reality is that every single one of us rejects truly closed borders.

- We all agree that we should be allowed to travel to other nations for sight-seeing, sex tourism, and drug use.
- We all agree that we should allow visitors from other nations to come in and spend money on our t-shirts and prostitutes.
- We all agree that at least some of us should be allowed to move overseas in light of job changes, family deaths, or mid-life crises.
- We all agree that at least some furriners should be allowed to move here to start gas stations and do gastric bypass surgery on our fat people.

I am sure someone will bitchily grumble at me that they are actually against one of those things and I'm a huge asshole for presuming, but let's run forward with those 4.

Since we all agree on those, what is the difference, in your gorgeous brain, between someone who advocates "open borders" and someone who does not?

Edited July 19, 2018 by bad_teammate

[F250 28,380]

Open borders: Ideally, the freedom of movement, labor, capital, goods and services. I'll settle for trade agreements and liberal guest worker programs.

 

I imagine this is what ICE fans picture when they think of open borders.

[Huckleberry 32,142]

Correct, open borders to scared Republican voters means that literally zero oversight is performed, there is nobody positioned at any point of entry, and MS-13 murders the entire country in three weeks.

The more open borders that I support involves what F250 talked about above. We should be encouraging as many good people to enter this nation as possible. We want smart and productive people moving to the USA and, this may come as a shock to lots of people, not all smart people are born in America.

[bad_teammate 13,018]

Follow-up: Is advocating for the abolition of borders as a concept the same as having open borders?

 

Asking for a friend.

[Huckleberry 32,142]

Ha. Yeah, I'd say so. You and Mizzou415 should hang out more often. Speaking of that dude, did he never make it over here?

[Js1 82,365]

Obviously, anyone against building a giant boondoggle of a wall is PRO OPEN BORDERS.

[TwiceHorn 30,715]

Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, this is a joke.

[LTbear 4,031]

Colloquially, I hear people use the term to refer to a policy of very relaxed immigration standards. Because I live in Berkeley at the moment, I also frequently hear anyone who's opposed to such a policy called a racist. Personally, I'd prefer we greatly limit who comes into the country, so long as it's done in a completely fair and not racially biased method (or as best as is possible). I do think we need to cut immigration rates significantly, for a multitude of reasons, but that's an entirely different thread. 

[bad_teammate 13,018]

1 minute ago, LTbear said:

Colloquially, I hear people use the term to refer to a policy of very relaxed immigration standards. Because I live in Berkeley at the moment, I also frequently hear anyone who's opposed to such a policy called a racist. Personally, I'd prefer we greatly limit who comes into the country, so long as it's done in a completely fair and not racially biased method (or as best as is possible). I do think we need to cut immigration rates significantly, for a multitude of reasons, but that's an entirely different thread. 

I'd like to hear an argument as to why we should care about greatly limiting who comes into the country that isn't racist at the core.

[LTbear 4,031]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

I'd like to hear an argument as to why we should care about greatly limiting who comes into the country that isn't racist at the core.

There are two quick answers. First for people like me is that I don't actually care about who, but I care about how many. Immigrants and their descendants, under more "open" policies, are likely to balloon the U.S. population to over 450 million by around 2050. That's an enormous strain on the country, particularly if (like me) one of your hottest button issues is conservation and environmental protection. The west - the last region we have truly salvageable wildlands left - is suffering from high influx rates, environmental degradation, and water shortages that hurt people as well as wildlife.

But if you don't care about the environment whatsoever, there are still people-based concerns to at least consider. A good deal of research has tied large influxes of immigrants as disproportionately negatively impacting African Americans, ironically making completely open policies racist in some sense. The travesty that was slavery and all the bullshit racism we've struggled with ever since has left the low-skill work force disproportionately occupied by African Americans, and as they are left with greater competition for jobs they are more likely to suffer financial hardships, more likely to turn to crime, and more likely to become incarcerated. Statistics bear out those trends. Confounding factors certainly exist, but the amount of research demonstrating those correlations is noteworthy. 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by LTbear

[bad_teammate 13,018]

1 minute ago, LTbear said:

Immigrants and their descendants, under more "open" policies, are likely to balloon the U.S. population to over 450 million by around 2050. That's an enormous strain on the country, particularly if (like me) one of your hottest button issues is conservation and environmental protection. The west - the last region we have truly salvageable wildlands left - is suffering from high influx rates, environmental degradation, and water shortages that hurt people as well as wildlife.

Domestic water use is pretty low down the list of what is hurting our freshwater supplies, but you're right that's a non-racist reason AND a real problem we need to work on. Props.

Quote

A good deal of research has tied large influxes of immigrants as disproportionately negatively impacting African Americans, ironically making completely open policies racist in some sense. The travesty that was slavery and all the bullshit racism we've struggled with ever since has left the low-skill work force disproportionately occupied by African Americans, and as they are left with greater competition for jobs they are more likely to suffer financial hardships, more likely to turn to crime, and more likely to become incarcerated. Statistics bear out those trends. Confounding factors certainly exist, but the amount of research demonstrating those correlations is noteworthy. 

The devil is absolutely in the details in this argument. But another interesting one.

My view would be to address the issue of freshwater conservation and black opportunity as separate from immigration, because those are massive problems absent any changes in immigration policy. We could close the borders tomorrow and still screw ourselves out of fresh water and still oppress blacks.

Good stuff, though. Makes me think.

[LTbear 4,031]

12 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Domestic water use is pretty low down the list of what is hurting our freshwater supplies, but you're right that's a non-racist reason AND a real problem we need to work on. Props.

The devil is absolutely in the details in this argument. But another interesting one.

My view would be to address the issue of freshwater conservation and black opportunity as separate from immigration, because those are massive problems absent any changes in immigration policy. We could close the borders tomorrow and still screw ourselves out of fresh water and still oppress blacks.

Good stuff, though. Makes me think.

Yes, on the second point, there is certainly much more to it than a straight-forward cause and effect. And I agree with you that both points should be addressed with urgency on their own, and not necessarily tied directly to immigration.

On the first (conservation), of course, no matter how we improve, more people is always going to equate to worse outcomes for the environment to some degree or another, and that is truly my primary concern. I'm a biologist by profession so of course I have an out-sized admiration of the natural world, and my background in paleobiology allows me to really understand how rapidly we've driven the planet into a sixth mass extinction. The more we can save while it's still there - and the better we can address how to live sustainably before allowing the population to balloon, the happier I'll be.

Resident tree-hugger rant over. 

[Parliament 13,979]

We most definitely need more immigration, but it needs to be the RIGHT people. Highly-skilled and moderately-skilled who have a job or college waiting for them. And we want them to become American citizens. Let's skim the very best the World has to offer, and make them ours.

 

Low-skilled people? That's dicier. On one side you say our low unemployment rate says we need more shinglers and landscapers. On the other (where I tend to fall) you say we have plenty of shinglers and landscapers. They're at home eating Vic Mackey's friends' food waiting for the welfare check, and our low labor force participation rate proves that.

 

Definitely not that simple. I like a Free Market deciding how many shinglers and landscapers come in, and go out. But you gotta concede welfare and similar are "sopping up" many Americans who can do these jobs.

 

The argument that criminals are coming in today is WAY overplayed.

 

 

[Brisketexan 103,148]

2 hours ago, F250 said:

Open borders: Ideally, the freedom of movement, labor, capital, goods and services. I'll settle for trade agreements and liberal guest worker programs.

 

I imagine this is what ICE fans picture when they think of open borders.

Pretty much what F250 said.  Current rates of population growth tell us that immigration is going to be important to our future economic viability.  And, historically, within a couple of generations, immigrants have produced pretty solid, contributing Americans.  If you want to come here and bust your ass -- whether it be writing code, or laying shingles -- you bring the most important economic resource a person can bring: ass-bustingness (that's the word I came up with; I'll entertain other substitute terms, so long as they're cool). 

Give me a dude who's willing to work on a Texas roof in August for 10 hours a day.  That guy's got a work ethic.  I like that.  That's what we need more of, not less of.

If you want to come here and sit on your ass, and say "poor me, I'm from another country, so I can't make any money, please take care of me," nope.  Although I'm quite okay with us helping out people in actual dire straits (asylum programs).   Because those folks end up REALLY grateful to the country that provided them shelter. And "grateful Americans who appreciate this country and what it gave them" is also something we need more of.

And, yeah, the "they're criminals" aspect is ridiculously overplayed.  Sure, if you're an actual criminal, we shouldn't let you in.  Whatever, that's not going to be nearly as big a deal as some folks think it might be.

[thrillhammer 680]

4 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Ha. Yeah, I'd say so. You and Mizzou415 should hang out more often. Speaking of that dude, did he never make it over here?

where is mizzou?  I miss that guy.

[Mole 4,265]

Maybe he's really into scat.

[Incredulity 11,141]

I am in favor of immigration and personally know legal and illegal immigrants who are great people in every sense.

The current and recent historical state of immigration “policy” is disgraceful.

I think it is immoral to draw families to the southern boarder with “turn your head” border enforcement.  I don’t think you can have a fix to the situation without a secure border, be it a wall or not.

[RayDog 682]

The US total fertility rate is hovering around 1.85 with Canada and many parts of the US Midwest and Northeast at 1.60. 

The US needs sustained immigration in order to fuel economic growth. This is made more time critical due to the large numbers of boomers retiring each month. But we not only need engineers, doctors, technology workers, nurses and scientists, we need crop pickers, construction workers, housekeepers and other trade and unskilled labor. As the history of the past few decades shows, the US economy can absorb many more new foreign workers than are coming into the country today.

The administrations policies of restricting undocumented and to a lessor extent documented immigrants will lead to an economic disaster, and in combination with poor trade policies, make the coming recession far worse than it needs to be.

We certainly do need immigration reform and a strong guest worker program for trade and unskilled labor and I hope the democrats can pass something in 2021.. We also need to stop violating international law with regard to asylum seekers, in all the many ways this administration is violating those laws..

[udaydanceparty 33]

Obama was right.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

16 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

I'd like to hear an argument as to why we should care about greatly limiting who comes into the country that isn't racist at the core.

Seriously ?  How predictable.

[udaydanceparty 33]

9 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Seriously ?  How predictable.

“The word ‘racism’ is like ketchup. It can be put on practically anything — and demanding evidence makes you a ‘racist.’” 

-Thomas Sowell (known racist)

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

3 minutes ago, udaydanceparty said:

“The word ‘racism’ is like ketchup. It can be put on practically anything — and demanding evidence makes you a ‘racist.’” 

-Thomas Sowell (known racist)

ANY post BT makes always comes back to racism. That he doesn't understand the economic, and societal impact of an open border to anyone and everyone just shows how ignorant and naive he is.

Racism racism racism racism aaaaaaaagghhhhh !!!!!!!!!

[bad_teammate 13,018]

[bad_teammate 13,018]

Arguments for limiting immigration are almost uniformly based on racist principles. Crime arguments (not based in fact, but racial fear), overpopulation (not based in fact, but racial fear), cultural change (this one is obvious).

Racist arguments become "common sense" and non-racist people find themselves advancing racist arguments because they've become accepted as the popular wisdom.

LT Bear offered two arguments against immigration that were not racist. One was very interesting (water conservation) and the other was pretty spongy (negative impact on blacks). He did a 500x better job illustrating genuine immigration concerns than either of you would ever be capable of. Literally all you two imbeciles are capable of is seeing the word "racist" and having Autistic freakouts because you cannot intellectually grapple with any complex concept.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Arguments for limiting immigration are almost uniformly based on racist principles. Crime arguments (not based in fact, but racial fear), overpopulation (not based in fact, but racial fear), cultural change (this one is obvious).

Racist arguments become "common sense" and non-racist people find themselves advancing racist arguments because they've become accepted as the popular wisdom.

LT Bear offered two arguments against immigration that were not racist. One was very interesting (water conservation) and the other was pretty spongy (negative impact on blacks). He did a 500x better job illustrating genuine immigration concerns than either of you would ever be capable of. Literally all you two imbeciles are capable of is seeing the word "racist" and having Autistic freakouts because you cannot intellectually grapple with any complex concept.

Yeah, why it seems racist is because the folks trying to get here illegally are often poor and unskilled laborers who live south of the border. So you could infer it's racist when it's really socio economic.  If we had a steady stream of unemployed, unskilled, anglo Canadians coming south the same socio economic issue would hold true.  the burden to local gov'ts, schools, social services, hospitals, and ultimately welfare (of some kind)  would hold true. 

Gainfully employed people aren't rushing to cross borders illegally.   But yeah, it's aaaaaaaalll about racism.

 

[bad_teammate 13,018]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, why it seems racist is because the folks trying to get here illegally are often poor and unskilled laborers who live south of the border. So you could infer it's racist when it's really socio economic.  If we had a steady stream of unemployed, unskilled, anglo Canadians coming south the same socio economic issue would hold true.  the burden to local gov'ts, schools, social services, hospitals, and ultimately welfare (of some kind)  would hold true. 

Gainfully employed people aren't rushing to cross borders illegally.   But yeah, it's aaaaaaaalll about racism.

Why does their being poor matter? What does "unskilled" even mean? Would they be as much of a "burden" if we made them tax-paying citizens and entered them into our system instead of pushing them to the fringes? Do their tremendous economic contributions magically not count against their supposed "burden" costs?

 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Why does their being poor matter? What does "unskilled" even mean? Would they be as much of a "burden" if we made them tax-paying citizens and entered them into our system instead of pushing them to the fringes? Do their tremendous economic contributions magically not count against their supposed "burden" costs?

 

It has many things to do with the issue. We can't have a border open to anyone who wants to come here. We can't pay for the care and feeding of the world, nor should we. So screw the racist BS ploy. This is a socio economic issue.

If you are unskilled you are going to be a burden to society, until you can fend for yourself. That you don't get this shows how naive you are. Make poor people tax paying citizens ?  We have 10's of millions of poor people here now who don't pay taxes. You want more of them ?

[bad_teammate 13,018]

14 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

It has many things to do with the issue. We can't have a border open to anyone who wants to come here. We can't pay for the care and feeding of the world, nor should we. So screw the racist BS ploy. This is a socio economic issue.

This is a racist portrayal of the immigration issue, because it relies on a presumption that immigrants are helpless, lazy idiots. The reality is that immigrants are not only good for our economy, they are an absolute necessity.

Quote

If you are unskilled you are going to be a burden to society, until you can fend for yourself.

* citation needed

Quote

That you don't get this shows how naive you are. Make poor people tax paying citizens ?  We have 10's of millions of poor people here now who don't pay taxes. You want more of them ?

Since I'm not a racist who hates the poor... yes, that's fine. The standard of living of our poor here in the US far exceeds the terrible conditions those people face in war-torn and cartel-controlled cities and nations abroad.

And even the very poor pay taxes all the time. You're a racist idiot.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

7 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

This is a racist portrayal of the immigration issue, because it relies on a presumption that immigrants are helpless, lazy idiots. The reality is that immigrants are not only good for our economy, they are an absolute necessity.

* citation needed

Since I'm not a racist who hates the poor... yes, that's fine. The standard of living of our poor here in the US far exceeds the terrible conditions those people face in war-torn and cartel-controlled cities and nations abroad.

And even the very poor pay taxes all the time. You're a racist idiot.

Racist racist racist racist.  Racist racist !! Racist racist racist racist racist ??!! Racist ???? Racist RAAAAAAAAAAAAAACIST !!!!!!!

You are such a child.

[bad_teammate 13,018]

9 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Racist racist racist racist.  Racist racist !! Racist racist racist racist racist ??!! Racist ???? Racist RAAAAAAAAAAAAAACIST !!!!!!!

You are such a child.

Do children often make you look stupid in front of other people?

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

6 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Do children often make you look stupid in front of other people?

racist racist racist racist.  racists racist racist racist ??!!  

[David Dennison 17,660]

47 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

It has many things to do with the issue. We can't have a border open to anyone who wants to come here. We can't pay for the care and feeding of the world, nor should we. So screw the racist BS ploy. This is a socio economic issue.

If you are unskilled you are going to be a burden to society, until you can fend for yourself. That you don't get this shows how naive you are. Make poor people tax paying citizens ?  We have 10's of millions of poor people here now who don't pay taxes. You want more of them ?

Poor people pay a shit load of taxes. 

[SubliminalHorn 6,328]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

racist racist racist racist.  racists racist racist racist ??!!  

Explain how the poor don’t pay taxes. This will be interesting

[Clob94 121]

1 hour ago, bad_teammate said:

Why does their being poor matter? What does "unskilled" even mean? Would they be as much of a "burden" if we made them tax-paying citizens and entered them into our system instead of pushing them to the fringes? Do their tremendous economic contributions magically not count against their supposed "burden" costs?

 

I'm curious as to your position on the surging number of Russian women flocking in droves to Florida to give birth on tourist visas. The number grows daily. 

[Clob94 121]

8 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Explain how the poor don’t pay taxes. This will be interesting

Trap door question. 

Consumption taxes, yes, no doubt. Sales tax, gas tax, etc. 

Income taxes, not as many. 

I've been involved in 3 car accidents in my lifetime. Rear ended while sitting at a stoplight in corpus. Hit by an illegal with no car insurance. 

T-boned in San Antonio by a guy that ran a stop sign in a stolen car (illegal immigrant).  No insurance. 

Brushed a woman's rear driver side bumper in austin as she made an I'll advised left turn into the north bound Lane on south lamar near Saxon pub. No idea her status because she fled the scene. 

All an anomaly? 

 

[SubliminalHorn 6,328]

Although your insurance talk is completely irrelevant to this conversation, why do you think they didn’t have insurance?

What’s your point regarding insurance?

and thank you, poor people do pay a lot of taxes. Maybe not income taxes, but neither do a lot of Americans. Are you equally outraged that many multi billion companies also don’t pay taxes? What about churches?

[Clob94 121]

13 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Although your insurance talk is completely irrelevant to this conversation, why do you think they didn’t have insurance?

What’s your point regarding insurance?

and thank you, poor people do pay a lot of taxes. Maybe not income taxes, but neither do a lot of Americans. Are you equally outraged that many multi billion companies also don’t pay taxes? What about churches?

Please don't turn this into a whataboutism convo. Churches should pay taxes. Corporations are able to skirt some taxes because of the bullshit tax laws created by career politicians like Strom Thurmond, Ted Kennedy, McCain, Pelosi etc. People of their ILK created this fucking mess. I fucking LOATHE career politicians. 

Why did these illegals not have car insurance? Simple answer, they made the conscious choice to not fill out the 4 documents needed to apply for a green card. The one dude was a flat out petty thief..... until he stole a car. 

[David Dennison 17,660]

7 minutes ago, Clob94 said:

Please don't turn this into a whataboutism convo. Churches should pay taxes. Corporations are able to skirt some taxes because of the bullshit tax laws created by career politicians like Strom Thurmond, Ted Kennedy, McCain, Pelosi etc. People of their ILK created this fucking mess. I fucking LOATHE career politicians. 

Why did these illegals not have car insurance? Simple answer, they made the conscious choice to not fill out the 4 documents needed to apply for a green card. The one dude was a flat out petty thief..... until he stole a car. 

Illegals are going to drive no matter what. States should make it easier for them to purchase insurance. Until then, you'll pay more for uninsured motorist insurance.

[SubliminalHorn 6,328]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Illegals are going to drive no matter what. States should make it easier for them to purchase insurance. Until then, you'll pay more for uninsured motorist insurance.

And this is where I was more or less going. They should be able to just buy insurance easily. Thereby reducing situations like what happened to Clob. That goes for uninsured Americans, as well. I don’t really get where he thought he was going with his insurance anecdotes. 

[Clob94 121]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Illegals are going to drive no matter what. States should make it easier for them to purchase insurance. Until then, you'll pay more for uninsured motorist insurance.

Crazy thought here-- do sharks need tractors to plow corn in Nebraska? No, because they live in the ocean. 

If you're going to come to this country, sign the book on your way in---- or don't come. Pretty simple concept. 

[David Dennison 17,660]

1 minute ago, Clob94 said:

Crazy thought here-- do sharks need tractors to plow corn in Nebraska? No, because they live in the ocean. 

If you're going to come to this country, sign the book on your way in---- or don't come. Pretty simple concept. 

It is simple. And it isn't going to happen. There will always be illegal immigrants in the United States.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

1 hour ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Explain how the poor don’t pay taxes. This will be interesting

Why would it be interesting ?  Everyone pays taxes at the counter, and gas pump. SS and other taxes are taken from paychecks.  Beyond that there are no April 15 payments for 10's of millions of American citizens.   I'd call that something other than interesting.

No I'm taking actual income taxes, you knew that, but can't even be honest enough to respond with relevant debate. You try to twist a post to fit your thoughts, regardless of the actual facts.  

 

 

[David Dennison 17,660]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Why would it be interesting ?  Everyone pays taxes at the counter, and gas pump. SS and other taxes are taken from paychecks.  Beyond that there are no April 15 payments for 10's of millions of American citizens.   I'd call that something other than interesting.

No I'm taking actual income taxes, you knew that, but can't even be honest enough to respond with relevant debate. You try to twist a post to fit your thoughts, regardless of the actual facts.  

But you aren't honest enough to say that you're talking about income taxes. You just make the blanket statement that the poor don't pay taxes. That's simply not true.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

But you aren't honest enough to say that you're talking about income taxes. You just make the blanket statement that the poor don't pay taxes. That's simply not true.

Oh piss off.  Everyone knows what I or anyone means when they say paying taxes, unless you're just a complete tool, trying to evade honest discussion.

[bad_teammate 13,018]

3 hours ago, Clob94 said:

I'm curious as to your position on the surging number of Russian women flocking in droves to Florida to give birth on tourist visas. The number grows daily. 

I'm fine with it. Let them become citizens and start paying taxes.

If you aren't a criminal and you want to become a tax-paying US citizen, come on with it. Welcome. Grab a tool and jump in with us.

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

No I'm taking actual income taxes, you knew that, but can't even be honest enough to respond with relevant debate. You try to twist a post to fit your thoughts, regardless of the actual facts.  

Saying, "They don't pay taxes" when you mean "they don't pay income taxes" is not something I'll play along with because it's purposefully misleading, which is what stupid people do when they try to argue. I'm not sure why I'd be expected to play along with your idiotic rhetorical strategy.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

10 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

 

Saying, "They don't pay taxes" when you mean "they don't pay income taxes" is not something I'll play along with because it's purposefully misleading, which is what stupid people do when they try to argue. I'm not sure why I'd be expected to play along with your idiotic rhetorical strategy.

No it's not it's just you playing a game. Everyone knows what paying taxes means.  Too bad you can't deal honestly.    Ask 100 people in the street what it means and they'll say income taxes. You might say banana, but I'd expect that from you.

RACISM RACISM RACISM RACISM RACISM RACISM.....Feel better ?

Edited July 21, 2018 by Onboard 2.0

[formermav43 4,599]

22 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

It’s purposefully misleading, which is what stupid people do when they try to argue. I'm not sure why I'd be expected to play along with your idiotic rhetorical strategy.

Annoying, isn’t it?

Edited July 21, 2018 by formermav43

[bad_teammate 13,018]

16 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

No it's not it's just you playing a game. Everyone knows what paying taxes means.

Clearly not.

What you mean to say, "Idiot liars like me use the same dishonest shorthand."

Income tax accounts for less than half of federal tax income. You're a dumb liar.

[77horn 216]

18 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Income tax accounts for less than half of federal tax income.

Policy Basics: Where Do Federal Tax Revenues Come From?

Now I would argue that payroll tax is a form of income tax as it is based upon income.  so it looks like taxes based upon reported personal income is around 81%

[bad_teammate 13,018]

1 minute ago, 77horn said:

Policy Basics: Where Do Federal Tax Revenues Come From?

Now I would argue that payroll tax is a form of income tax as it is based upon income.  so it looks like taxes based upon reported personal income is around 81%

And that would be a bad argument, because even if you aren't paid enough to qualify for income taxes, payroll tax is still paid on your income. But I'm sure OnBoard will be excited, because he's dumb.