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Luka Doncic

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55 minutes ago, AngryDragon said:

Edited because you amended your original statement. If Luka had Dirk's shooting ability we could place him in the all time top ten today.

 

Luka's shooting percentage is slightly higher than Dirk's career average 

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i genuinely look forward to goo punch reminding me how good luka is for the next 10-20 years. i am fully drinking the koolaid 

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3 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Luka's shooting percentage is slightly higher than Dirk's career average 

Wish this were from this year, but I think 2019-20 data would only be more pronounced:

http://www.austinclemens.com/shotcharts/

Luka pretty much doesn't take shots that aren't 3's or takes to the rim. He doesn't shoot as well as Dirk. 3's and FT's tell the story.

I'll also note, that Luka tends to take high degree of difficulty 3's, but digging into that a little, he's actually been worse on catch-and-shoot 3's this year (31.8%). So the percentage isn't being dragged down by all the stepbacks.

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11 hours ago, TommyGufano said:

Wish this were from this year, but I think 2019-20 data would only be more pronounced:

http://www.austinclemens.com/shotcharts/

Luka pretty much doesn't take shots that aren't 3's or takes to the rim. He doesn't shoot as well as Dirk. 3's and FT's tell the story.

I'll also note, that Luka tends to take high degree of difficulty 3's, but digging into that a little, he's actually been worse on catch-and-shoot 3's this year (31.8%). So the percentage isn't being dragged down by all the stepbacks.

Exactly. Shooting percentage or not, Luka is not as good of a shooter as Dirk was. That can change but the main idea is that Luka is already better at everything than Dirk ever was and that just is not true.

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Posted (edited)

nobody ever said he was a better shooter. that's the one area where Dirk is vastly superior. Of course with that said Luka is still a better all around scorer, mostly due to his superior athleticism and ball handling. he can get his points in a number of ways that Dirk wasn't ever really able to. also worth noting is that Dirk averaged 5 FTA/gm for his career and only shot more than 7.4 FTA/gm once. Luka, who drives the lane and slashes much more than Dirk did, already averages 7.5 FTA/gm including 9.1 FTA this year. the fact that he doesn't shoot it nearly as well as Dirk did yet averages 30 ppg at 20 years old says a lot about how special this guy is. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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8 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

nobody ever said he was a better shooter. that's the one area where Dirk is vastly superior. Of course with that said Luka is still a better all around scorer, mostly due to his superior athleticism and ball handling. he can get his points in a number of ways that Dirk wasn't ever really able to. also worth noting is that Dirk averaged 5 FTA/gm for his career and only shot more than 7.4 FTA/gm once. Luka, who drives the lane and slashes much more than Dirk did, already averages 7.5 FTA/gm including 9.1 FTA this year. the fact that he doesn't shoot it nearly as well as Dirk did yet averages 30 ppg at 20 years old says a lot about how special this guy is. 

You're not wrong, but we are talking different eras with massive differences in the way the game is officiated on the perimeter.  I'm not sure that I buy that Luka is a better all around scorer -- he's just different. That's why this comparison seems so ludicrous to me. It's like comparing the skillset of Isaiah Thomas to Shaq. They play the game in completely different ways. Dirk was one of the best, if not the best, pick and pop shooters of all-time. It's a highly underrated skill to be able to set a pick that either forces a switch or frees up a man. The Mavs essentially rode that play run at the free throw line to a championship. Dirk was also really good at moving without the ball and getting shots off of pin downs. Again, another highly valuable basketball skill.

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9 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

Doncic ve Jokic on ESPN now.

Have you changed your pants yet?

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15 hours ago, immortal13 said:

Racist

The NBA is the one arena in American life where I would buy a "black on white racism" argument.  Budding white superstars get treating like shit and disrespected by the whole league - or at least Dirk was and Luka is getting it now.

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1 hour ago, Dirk X West said:

The NBA is the one arena in American life where I would buy a "black on white racism" argument.  Budding white superstars get treating like shit and disrespected by the whole league - or at least Dirk was and Luka is getting it now.

Just pertaining to this video, I don't think there was any racism. Snoop even admitted Luka is good. But that he's not the best 20yr old ever or at least that he has seen. He also made the video while Luka and the Mavs were getting their ass kicked on national tv and the Lakers dominated the Mavs this season in winning 3 of 4. So there is some bias there, too. 

He's a very young superstar from overseas who is new to this league. It's natural that a lot of players are going to test him and see what he has. They do that to any rookie really. They want to see if he's soft or how much they can get away. So far, he hasn't backed down. I think he's much more flamboyant and charismatic than Dirk was. Dirk was very low key on and off the court. I can't remember that far back and if the players tried to punk Dirk or not. But Dirk didn't make this big of a splash this quickly, either. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Just pertaining to this video, I don't think there was any racism. Snoop even admitted Luka is good. But that he's not the best 20yr old ever or at least that he has seen. He also made the video while Luka and the Mavs were getting their ass kicked on national tv and the Lakers dominated the Mavs this season in winning 3 of 4. So there is some bias there, too. 

He's a very young superstar from overseas who is new to this league. It's natural that a lot of players are going to test him and see what he has. They do that to any rookie really. They want to see if he's soft or how much they can get away. So far, he hasn't backed down. I think he's much more flamboyant and charismatic than Dirk was. Dirk was very low key on and off the court. I can't remember that far back and if the players tried to punk Dirk or not. But Dirk didn't make this big of a splash this quickly, either. 

 

you can't remember 2000?  how old are you??

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3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

you can't remember 2000?  how old are you??

No, I can't remember over 20 years ago if players punked Dirk or not from game to game. Why would i retain that sort of trivial information? I've drank and banged a lot of chunky women since then.

 

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7 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

No, I can't remember over 20 years ago if players punked Dirk or not from game to game. Why would i retain that sort of trivial information? I've drank and banged a lot of chunky women since then.

 

i see.  you probably don't remember because it didn't happen.  not like what's going on with luka anyway.  dirk for years was labelled "soft" but that was because he didn't play like a 7 footer was expected to play.  he didn't take the ball inside much.  didn't even post up as much as people (me included) wanted him to.  certainly didn't dive to the hole the way luka does.  

 

he DID start getting fouled more in 05, 06 when they figured you could take away his lower half of the body.  but it wasn't a physicality intended to intimidate him as much as it was taking him away from his favorite spots on the floor or allowing him to make his first dribble move.  

 

you have to also factor in dirk was always a very good FT shooter so any fouls committed were a losing proposition.

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Snoop's rant just has a racist ring to it to me. Maybe it's him saying Luka "ain't better than my niggas Malone, Kobe, KG, ect". Just came off racist to me

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Dirk also wasn't the immediate success that Doncic is. Dirk didn't play in the All-Star game until his fourth year in the league. He was a lot more raw when he got into the league.

Also, no disrespect to Luka or Lebron, but I kinda think Magic was the best 20 year old ever. Led his team to the championship including beating a great Sixers team in game 6 on the road to win it without Kareem while putting up a 42-7-15 stat line. 

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3 hours ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I kinda think Magic was the best 20 year old ever. Led his team to the championship including beating a great Sixers team in game 6 on the road to win it without Kareem while putting up a 42-7-15 stat line. 

And didn't he play center that series? Dude literally could play every position on the court. Magic, indeed.

All this bickering about who's better than who (or who will be better than who and by when) aside, it's great to have the emergence of a charismatic, all-around wunderkind like Doncic. It's something the league hasn't seen since Lebron's first couple of seasons, and before him, the aforementioned Magic and Bird.

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3 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

Luka is so bad on defense

how good were Magic and Bird at 20? KD? Freak, Jokic, Harden, Wade, Melo, AI, et al? not that big of a deal when you're a transcendent offensive talent and not even allowed to buy beer at your home arena.

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how good were Magic and Bird at 20? KD? Freak, Jokic, Harden, Wade, Melo, AI, et al? not that big of a deal when you're a transcendent offensive talent and not even allowed to buy beer at your home arena.
He's gonna have to figure it out. He's a severe liability.

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He’s also not that bad defensively. He isn’t a good on ball defender but he read the game well for a 20 year old. He also has good hands and gets some steals and deflections. He’s also 20 years old and has the body size that should allow him to develop into a better defender over time. 

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14 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

how good were Magic and Bird at 20? KD? Freak, Jokic, Harden, Wade, Melo, AI, et al? not that big of a deal when you're a transcendent offensive talent and not even allowed to buy beer at your home arena.

He could buy at his previous home arena.   

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12 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

He’s also not that bad defensively. He isn’t a good on ball defender but he read the game well for a 20 year old. He also has good hands and gets some steals and deflections. He’s also 20 years old and has the body size that should allow him to develop into a better defender over time. 

He also doesn’t have to. Many of the offensively gifted players in this league are protected on defense. Harden, Steph, Durant (although he’s improved immensely, I doubt going forward that he’ll be expected to contribute in any meaningful way on defense going forward) Lebron (I mean, he doesn’t even try half the time), Kyrie, etc. Luka just has to stay in position and not foul. Contest some threes. Don’t be Bryn Forbes.

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14 minutes ago, Kermit said:

He also doesn’t have to. Many of the offensively gifted players in this league are protected on defense. Harden, Steph, Durant (although he’s improved immensely, I doubt going forward that he’ll be expected to contribute in any meaningful way on defense going forward) Lebron (I mean, he doesn’t even try half the time), Kyrie, etc. Luka just has to stay in position and not foul. Contest some threes. Don’t be Bryn Forbes.

Durant doesn't belong in your post

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lebron can defend.  he's not always dialed in but when he flips that switch he's a great defender.

 

right now luka's defensive decision making is influenced too much by how well he's playing on offense.  the worse he shoots the more bad fouls he gives up on the defensive end.  i get it, he's young.  he'll learn.  can't wait to see him apply his natural physical abilities to this part of the game.  he might never be a lock down defender but i think he can be disruptive with his body.

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His elite rebounding for his position makes up for some of his other defensive shortcomings.  It don’t matter how well you play D if you don’t secure the board. 

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Still comparing 2 completely different players, skill sets, and eras Derka.

I would haves loved to see a 18 year old Dirk come into the league around 2017. He’d just be getting into form right about now. We’d probably think even higher of him.

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well first off i was just joking, but if we're really gonna go there, let's stop acting like Dirk was playing alongside George Mikan, and let's stop blaming "different eras" on the fact that Dirk wasn't very mobile and had none of Luka's vision or passing ability. the excuse train is getting bogged down with defensive BS. Dirk wasn't as skilled or as mobile as Luka. get over it. 

edit: Dirk played in 1,522 career games and managed to accrue double digit assists in a single game...3 times. he got 12 assists one time in 2008, and then two other times in his career he got 10 assists in one game. stop with the BS excuses like "different eras" for areas where Luka simply outclasses Dirk. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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10 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

 

He moved like a zombie for his last 2 seasons, but he wasn't 39 yrs old for his entire career

Man he was special.

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19 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

 

He moved like a zombie for his last 2 seasons, but he wasn't 39 yrs old for his entire career

no doubt. not trying to say he was Arvydas Sabonis or anything, he simply wasn't nearly as mobile as Luka is. 

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21 minutes ago, Goo Punch said:

edit: Dirk played in 1,522 career games and managed to accrue double digit assists in a single game...3 times. he got 12 assists one time in 2008, and then two other times in his career he got 10 assists in one game. stop with the BS excuses like "different eras" for areas where Luka simply outclasses Dirk. 

Tim Duncan played in 1186 career games and accrued double digit assists in a single game... 4 times. Does Luka outclass Timmy, too? Maybe, but it's a ridiculous argument to make statistical comparisons between guys who played different positions and played the game with completely different styles. Those apples don't have near the vitamin C that those oranges do.

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Dirk was not as mobile as Doncic and he didn't have Luka's vision or passing ability. End of story.

Luka and Dirk playing different positions in different eras is irrelevant to the fact that Dirk couldn't pass like Doncic can. Period. Plenty of big men from Dirk's era (and before/after) were great passers (Sabonis, Divac, Webber, Jokic, etc), and it isn't like we could drop a 24 year old Dirk into today's league and ask him to do what Luka does. I said it in the OP- a lot of Mavs fans are having a very tough time wrapping their heads around the idea that anyone is better than Dirk was at anything, but none of the stuff I'm saying about Luka is really even up for debate. And yet and still, every time it's pointed out that Luka is better at some facet of the game than Dirk was, the response is five Mavs fans acting like i said he sucks, or that he couldn't pass or move at all. What can you do. 

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

Dirk was not as mobile as Doncic and he didn't have Luka's vision or passing ability. End of story.

Luka and Dirk playing different positions in different eras is irrelevant to the fact that Dirk couldn't pass like Doncic can. Period. Plenty of big men from Dirk's era (and before/after) were great passers (Sabonis, Divac, Webber, Jokic, etc), and it isn't like we could drop a 24 year old Dirk into today's league and ask him to do what Luka does. I said it in the OP- a lot of Mavs fans are having a very tough time wrapping their heads around the idea that anyone is better than Dirk was at anything, but none of the stuff I'm saying about Luka is really even up for debate. And yet and still, every time it's pointed out that Luka is better at some facet of the game than Dirk was, the response is five Mavs fans acting like i said he sucks, or that he couldn't pass or move at all. What can you do. 

No one is thinking that you are saying he sucks. It's pretty obvious you are not. But when statements like Dirk is not better at anything relative to Luka just isn't true. Dirk was a better shooter and free throw shooter. Dirk also added elements to his game as he progressed in his career. Especially a post game that was almost unstoppable when it he got to his spot. Because the statement was Luka right now is better than Dirk ever was at everything. And if he never improved one ounce, he would be a top 10 player in history. That is just a pretty ridiculous statement to make.

Edited by Vic Mackey

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1 hour ago, Goo Punch said:

Dirk was not as mobile as Doncic and he didn't have Luka's vision or passing ability. End of story.

Luka and Dirk playing different positions in different eras is irrelevant to the fact that Dirk couldn't pass like Doncic can. Period. Plenty of big men from Dirk's era (and before/after) were great passers (Sabonis, Divac, Webber, Jokic, etc), and it isn't like we could drop a 24 year old Dirk into today's league and ask him to do what Luka does. I said it in the OP- a lot of Mavs fans are having a very tough time wrapping their heads around the idea that anyone is better than Dirk was at anything, but none of the stuff I'm saying about Luka is really even up for debate. And yet and still, every time it's pointed out that Luka is better at some facet of the game than Dirk was, the response is five Mavs fans acting like i said he sucks, or that he couldn't pass or move at all. What can you do. 

I'm not a Mavs fan. I'm not even particularly a Dirk fan. 

No fucking shit Dirk wasn't as mobile as Doncic. There aren't a lot of 7 footers who move as well as guys who are five inches shorter than them. And no kidding he didn't have his vision/passing skills. 

The only thing that Doncic and Nowitski have in common as players is the team they play for. You might as well be comparing AI and Joel Embiid. You know, there's no way you could drop a 24 year old Shaquille O'Neal into today's league and ask him to do what Luka does. Why are we even arguing this?

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On 1/14/2020 at 11:01 AM, Dirk X West said:

The NBA is the one arena in American life where I would buy a "black on white racism" argument.  Budding white superstars get treating like shit and disrespected by the whole league - or at least Dirk was and Luka is getting it now.

Aspiring white rappers would like a word...

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1 hour ago, Mitch Cumsteen said:

I'm not a Mavs fan. I'm not even particularly a Dirk fan. 

No fucking shit Dirk wasn't as mobile as Doncic. There aren't a lot of 7 footers who move as well as guys who are five inches shorter than them. And no kidding he didn't have his vision/passing skills. 

The only thing that Doncic and Nowitski have in common as players is the team they play for. You might as well be comparing AI and Joel Embiid. You know, there's no way you could drop a 24 year old Shaquille O'Neal into today's league and ask him to do what Luka does. Why are we even arguing this?

because every time these obvious facts get pointed out a bunch of people to run in here to defend Dirk like someone said he sucks. i'm just as baffled as you are as to why these facts require a slew of posters running in here to "defend" Dirk, as if someone is attacking him by pointing out the superior aspects of Doncic's game. 

Edited by Goo Punch

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also, there is some real pushback in this thread towards the idea that what Luka is doing at his age/experience level is transcendent, and not just "really good". some even going as far as to say, "Dirk set the league on fire when he came in too", implying that the two situations are similar. They are not.

Here are the athletes who come to mind when i think of "dominating the league from the word 'go' at a young age", a la 20 year-old Luka Doncic: LeBron James, Magic Johnson, Albert Pujols, Mike Trout, Earl Campbell, Adrian Peterson, Tom Seaver, and so on and so forth. Luka isn't just doing "really well" at his age, he's doing "all-time great" well at his age. of course the rest of his career needs to play out before he actually can become an all-time great, but let's not act like he isn't having an historic start to his career, on par with some the all time best starts to a career had by any athlete in my lifetime. 

 

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Dirk at 20 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Luke at 20

I sincerely dispute the idea that Dirk's athleticism (mobility) is lesser than Doncic's. It's not easy to measure because LD is so in control he almost never seems to go at 100%, but young Dirk appears to be more springy and quicker/faster than LD, despite the size difference. LD's skillset does not include the blow-by and dunk on CWebb that is shown toward end of video I posted earlier. As of 1/16/20, that is a fact.

I think what this thread needs more than anything is to reset what ppl are saying. If it's "Luka right now is *better* than Dirk ever was", I'll tell you that you are dumb and that he does not meaningfully contribute to winning in a manner as significantly as peak Dirk did. If it's "he sees the court better, has a better handle and is more advanced at age 20"(ie he has skills more commonly associated with playing a guard position) then my response would be yeah... no shit.

Edited by TommyGufano

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